penguin42right, time to go to bed and leave my other machine running 'klee' - although I think it's got stuck in a nasty pointless bit00:45
Azelphurhttp://xkcd.com/963/ rofl03:09
MartijnVdSWhoa @ google.com/nexus04:51
knightwisemorning everyone06:00
TheOpenSourcererMorning everyone.06:23
knightwisemorning TheOpenSourcerer06:24
DJonesMorning anybody heard of www.backify.com ? They're offering 500Gb of backup for free, just seems to be backup space rather than a dropbox like service for free, but 500Gb seems to good to be true07:27
MartijnVdS"free"? what's the catch?07:29
MartijnVdSi.e. how do they make their money?07:29
DJonesMy thoughts exactly07:29
DJonesThey also offer paid accounts, so must be using this a loss leader to get people to sign up for the next account up that includes a dropbox like service07:30
MartijnVdS\o daubster07:36
daubersA question: Is there any music player program that can figure out how much typing/other stuff I do with given music and use that information to play me music that I'm more productive too?07:36
MartijnVdSdaubers: I don't think there is one a the moment, but it won't be hard to write07:37
MartijnVdSdaubers: you'll need to catch D-Bus "Now playing" events from (say) banshee07:37
MartijnVdSand X keystrokes (easy)07:37
MartijnVdSlog number of keystrokes to a file on every song change07:38
MartijnVdSfeed to graphing tool07:38
daubersMight be a job for the train tomorrow07:41
tonytigerBut how can you tell if they are useful keystrokes?07:41
MartijnVdSYou can determine the currently active window07:41
tonytigerAlso, do some tracks cause more errors than others (perhaps monitor the backspace events?)07:41
MartijnVdSif it's gvim, it's good07:41
MartijnVdSif it's chrome, it's slacking off07:42
daubersif it's gvim, someones nicked my laptop07:42
MartijnVdSdaubers: gemacs then07:42
tonytigerI have a lot of web apps to use :)07:42
=== dipl0 is now known as diplo
daubersIs there not a way to ask chrome what the currently active tab is?07:42
MartijnVdSdaubers: there must be, and there's the window title07:42
daubers(does zetigeist not do this in some way?)07:43
DJonesDoes update manager not ask for a password now to install updates, I've just been prompted for updates & clicking install updates didn't ask for a password07:44
tonytigerI spotted that too this morning07:46
tonytigerMust be a change in 11.1007:47
DJonesMust admit it seems a bit of a security risk07:47
AlanBellI just clicked on install updates and it is asking me to authenticate07:47
MartijnVdS"update" hasn't needed a password since natty I think07:48
MartijnVdSmaybe even maverick07:48
AlanBellso why did it just ask me?07:48
MartijnVdS"Install" asks for the password07:48
DJonesUp until a few days ago, I've always needed a password07:48
tonytigerMaybe it's related to how long ago you authenticated?07:53
selinuxiumMorning all   o/   :)07:53
selinuxiumUnder System Settings there is an Online Accounts app... Any idea what this connects to? You can set up gmail accounts but I have no idea what it effects...07:56
MooDoohello all07:58
DJonestonytiger: Thats about all I can think07:59
danfishmorning all08:04
danfishI'm having a strange problem - my laptop has started throwing up a MCE error message with the (pre-3) ubuntu kernel08:04
danfishbut with the same numbered debian on, everything's OK08:05
danfishanyone know of how how I can compare the two kernels relatively easily08:05
daubersdanfish: do a diff on the config files?08:06
danfishdaubers: ah - ok. I'll give that a go.08:07
DJonesHow do you reply to tweets in gwibber, I can't find any way of replying, I can read tweets, send new tweets, but no way of replying/retweeting08:10
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)08:10
DJonesRight, found it08:10
bigcalmHow might I re-create a users' home directory using the skeleton dir?08:10
bigcalmOr would the best solution be to delete and re-add the user?08:10
* daubers does like the Danse Macabre08:14
DJonesbigcalm: Doesn't using the useradd command just copy what the skeleton directory contains or links to anyway08:15
bigcalmDJones: that's what I've ended up doing08:16
aquariusWhat's the best way of monitoring (and restarting if crashed) a daemon if you're on a headless box and the daemon is run as me, not as root?08:21
aquariusI don't really want to do anything "system-level"-ish like make an upstart job which gives away privileges08:21
=== Stx_ is now known as Guest71711
bigcalmaquarius: you could use a script similar to botchk used by eggdrop bots08:22
aquariusat the moment I just run the daemon (rygel) out of my crontab with "@reboot rygel", but if it crashes it won't come back08:22
gordi was in a similar situation, ended up just making an upstart job that changed user before running the daemon08:22
gordmessing about with cron was getting me nowhere08:23
aquariusI hate doing user stuff at system level :(08:23
aquariusI mean, i could just do "while true; do rygel; done" :)08:24
aquariusthere's monit; I'm trying to work out if there's something better08:24
aquariusmonit requires loads of config, too.08:24
gordwould be so cool to have a per-user upstart08:25
aquariusit would indeed08:25
aquariusI asked keybuk for that and he laughed at me, so I don't think it's happening soon :(08:25
MartijnVdSaquarius: Maybe a per-user systemd!08:27
aquariusMartijnVdS, if I can just install systemd from apt without it being used as init, that might be doable, but how much config does it require?08:28
gordthe other option is just to get a script run every minute on cron that stores the pid, checks to see if the pid still exists, if not, launches the software again. but that way is such a pain08:28
aquariusgord, exactly, that's why I don't really wanna do that; I was hoping for something where I can just do "monitor-this-job rygel" and it would Take Care Of All That08:28
daubersaquarius: I've done it before by running the job in the forground on another tty as the interpreter. So if the process dies, the tty dies, essentially relogs on as a given user and the program is run as their shell08:32
daubersBit of a hacky bodge :)08:32
aquariusdaubers, blimey, that sounds complex08:32
daubersaquarius: Quite easy to setup. Autologin in /etc/somethingy/ttyX, set the users shell in /etc/passwd08:33
aquarius...chown all my video to that user, or make it a+rwx...08:34
daubersWell, yeah, that would be a problem in your case08:34
dauberssmall problem is that if it just keeps crashing it's not very good at logging stuff08:34
gordcograts, you seem to have invented the rube goldberg mechanism for restarting processes ;)08:35
MartijnVdSor you could just, like, fix the crasher bugs in the software?08:35
daubersgord: I was quite pleased with it at the time :)08:35
MooDooMartijnVdS: ok i'm sold, getting a ds411 :D08:36
MartijnVdSMooDoo: cool :)08:36
aquariusthere's daemontools, I suppose08:36
aquariusbut having to create folders with run files in them annoys me too :(08:36
MartijnVdSaquarius: isn't that a Windows FTP server?08:36
MartijnVdSno wait it's a virtual CD/DVD thing for Windows08:37
MartijnVdShttp://www.daemon-tools.cc/eng/downloads :)08:37
aquariusdaemontools, not daemon-tools :_)08:37
JamesTaitGood morning, all. :)08:39
bigcalmA little knowledge is a bad thing. Kinda hosed my work station :D08:40
popeyMorning all08:41
christelgood morning08:42
dauberso/ popey08:44
bigcalmHello hello hello & hello :)08:44
oimonDJones: you thinking of trying that backify  thing?09:13
oimoni need to look into encfs for storing encrypted backups09:15
oimoni'm happy to backup my MP3 collection on a few of these sites,09:15
DJonesoimon: It was somebody else that was asking about the backify thing, I just wondered if anybody had come across them09:16
oimonthey only launched a week ago it seems09:16
oimonthey could also be gone next week too :P09:16
DJonesThat doesn't sound promising09:17
oimoni have 50gb on my box.net account to use up first :)09:18
DJonesIs that 50Gb free?09:21
DJonesOr is that the business account09:22
oimonDJones: for touchpad users, although i read ios users are included recently too09:23
FNDanyone using Tilda on 11.10? I can't get it to position flush to the left; it leaves a gap the width of the launcher dock09:28
oimonFND: try guake?09:31
oimoni thought tilda was a qt version09:31
FNDoimon: Yakuake is the QT thing IIRC (it's been years... )09:32
FNDI'd rather stick with Tilda if possible09:32
oimoni'm not using unity, sorry09:32
FNDI guess I won't be for long either09:32
hoovermorning all09:33
bigcalmHi hoovie :)09:34
oimonFND: if unity could be moved to the bottom then you might not get that problem ;)09:34
MooDoomorning czajkowski09:34
FNDoimon: I have other issues (e.g. no persistent attention/urgency flag indicator), so considering migrating to Arch + LXDE09:36
oimonwow that's a big difference09:36
oimonare you looking for gnome2 behaviour in a modern release?09:36
smittixMorning all09:37
* smittix has been playing around with cheese.09:37
gordoh dear ;)09:37
smittixIf only i could get the audio in sync with the video.09:37
gordseriously, we should have an ubuntu-uk cheese shots wall09:38
gordeveryone has to use the square filter thing, because that is the funniest09:38
smittixI was trying to do a bit of a screencast, for changing startup services in 11.1009:38
deej1976gnome-session-fallback, gnome-shell with gnome2 look09:38
smittixI like the "hulk" effect it makes me look like shrek09:38
FNDoimon: basically, I live in the terminal+browser, so I just want the lightest WM possible - though without hassle (e.g. I also miss window list in Unity/Gnome-Shell)09:38
FND(I did consider just using XMonad on top of X, but that was too much hassle WRT status bars and activity notifications)09:39
aquariusFND, there isn't a good solution for this :( I use tilda too. It's really, really, really annoying09:39
aquariusFND, there's been an upstream bug about it for *ages*; tilda seems to be somewhat abandoned upstream :(09:40
FNDaquarius: I guess we should file a bug?09:40
FNDoh I see09:40
FNDwell, maybe I should use Guake then09:40
aquariusah! no, wait09:40
aquariusI use guake and it has the problem and that's the abandoned upstream one :)09:40
aquariusso clearly both guake *and* tilda have the problem :)09:40
FNDwell, I can guess why (the Unity Launcher blocking screen estate) - though it seems to not affect regular windows09:41
aquariusFND, guake basically hardcodes a width of 100% :(09:42
aquariuswindows are meant to adapt to it; the launcher is a dock.09:42
oimonFND: try xubuntu 11.1009:42
FNDaquarius: that'd be fine with me, as I use 100% width in Tilda's settings09:42
FND... if it worked ;)09:42
smittixhttp://www.comedytime.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/nsH6J.gif HEH!09:42
aquariusFND, yeah, but that's 100% width *less* any dock windows09:42
aquariusI'll bet money that the same problem would happen with a left-hand gnome panel09:42
aquariusit's poor coding :(09:42
aquariusI keep meaning to fix it and keep not getting a round tuit09:43
FNDI would buy you a beer for that (though it would have to be remote; not planning to fly up there any time soon)09:43
FNDoimon: I considered that, and might go for Xfce if LXDE turns out to be less than great - but I figured, if I drop the mainstream WM, I might as well give Arch a try in the process09:44
aquariusoimon, that's your answer? One drop-down terminal does lazy code which assumes that you haven't moved gnome-panel to the left and users should run a whole new OS? ;-)09:44
oimonxubuntu is the same os09:45
FNDaquarius: to be fair, there's more context to oimon's suggestion; I hinted at ditching Unity above09:45
oimonarch doesn't actually exist, it's just what people say when they are annoyed by some small aspect of their current distro09:45
oimon*may be untrue09:45
daubersMy IDE isn't psychic! I'm moving to arch!09:46
FNDhah oimon09:46
daubersSeems to have the same ring as a lot of identi.ca messages I used to see09:46
diploI keep meaning to try Arch but never have..09:46
diploReally not happy with natty though09:47
aquariusFND, ah, I missed that you were contemplating moving to arch and lxde. Have fun with that :)09:47
aquariuswhat's a "persistent flag indicator"?09:47
diploMaybe just debian testing09:47
dauberstbh, with natty I haven't really noticed much difference yet to how I have been working before09:47
oimoni've used linux as a casual and corporate user since the 90s and never seen gentoo or arch in the wild09:47
FNDaquarius: remember the subtle blue triangle in the top-right corner on 11.04? see http://askubuntu.com/questions/66978/how-do-i-tell-when-a-window-demands-attention09:47
FND(btw, I stumbled across your http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2011/01/16/working-with-the-ubuntu-messaging-menu in the process - is there an update on that?)09:48
daubersMy main blocker to productivity these days is a mix of warhammer and on demand TV09:49
bigcalmWhen backing up a system, what would you copy other than /home and /etc ?09:50
FNDoimon: that might be the point; hipster linux...09:50
lubotu3`There are many ways to back your system up. Here's a few: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem , https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DuplicityBackupHowto , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomeUserBackup , https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MondoMindi - See also !sbackup and !cloning09:50
oimonbigcalm: list of packages?09:50
bigcalmCould do, though I'm not so bothered by them09:51
oimoni gather oneconf is doing something like that soon/now09:51
aquariusFND, ah, that little triangle goes away? that's weird.09:52
FNDoimon: well, it used to - now the triangle doesn't exist anymore09:52
aquariusFND, no update on the messaging menu stuff, I'm afraid; I haven't needed it since then :)09:52
FNDI see - thanks for the write-up either way09:53
aquariusFND, yeah, when I hit weird stuff I try and write it down :)09:54
FNDthat's an excellent policy09:55
daubersczajkowski: Job hunting again?09:55
czajkowskialso post office Site uk is awful to use09:56
czajkowskiI want a contact us email address09:56
czajkowskinope doesnt exist09:56
czajkowskibut I sent a letter to -ie which is saying I sent to USA09:56
daubersczajkowski: Contracting sucks09:56
czajkowskiit's a long story and has made me rather pissed off09:57
davmor2morning all09:57
davmor2czajkowski: prod09:57
* smittix taps MooDoo on the shoulder and legs it.09:58
MooDoosmittix: no one here but us chickens :)09:59
MooDoomorning davmor209:59
MooDoowell just caught that czajkowski that sucks :(09:59
czajkowskinot as bad as turning down 3 jobs since I was in ther10:00
czajkowskiand 1 that very morning s10:00
czajkowskiso a bit sensative subject which am really not in the mood to deal with10:00
MooDooczajkowski: hug10:00
davmor2morning MooDoo10:01
MooDoodavmor2: ayup lad, hows it hanging10:01
davmor2MooDoo: sound as pound on the ground all  around10:02
MooDoodavmor2: groovy baby10:02
MooDooczajkowski: just another thing to add to the "reasons why i'm pissed off" list eh! :(10:03
FNDoops, not Vim10:08
czajkowskiBigRedS: BEHAVE10:10
gordbigcalm, cause more trouble!10:10
gordBigRedS, even10:10
gordor bigcalm whatever10:10
gordif i ran irc, no one would be allowed to share the same three characters in a name10:11
bigcalmI was trying to work out what BigRedS had done10:11
bigcalmI was just grinning10:13
daubersgord: Can we not just start using wildcards?10:15
davmor2MooDoo: czajkowski Language :D10:17
gorddaubers, good luck talking to one of the alans with that10:17
MooDoodavmor2: up ya b** :)10:17
davmor2MooDoo: I don't have a bob10:17
MooDoodavmor2: smart a*se10:18
davmor2Man now I got to go look up words to see what fit10:19
MooDoodavmor2: not in the mood, stop being so cheery10:19
dogmatic69could anyone recommend a program for checking what is using disk space from terminal?10:19
* Gary tickles czajkowski 10:19
dogmatic69something like size per folder10:19
diplodu -sh /dir/ ?10:19
diplodu -h even10:20
davmor2MooDoo: but you need to be, we need to pick on czajkowski in a nice way to keep her in a pleasant mood so she can get another job10:20
davmor2czajkowski: although have you though that walking into the interview PO would work,  give me the job or I rip you ears off10:21
davmor2just a thought10:21
MooDoodavmor2: that's one of the reasons i'm in a bad mood, so many good people wanting to work, but not getting the chance10:22
davmor2MooDoo: czajkowski will get another job guaranteed cause she doesn't give up like a lot of people, so I got every faith her and her abilities, till then we need to be strong and make her life feel as normal as possibly.... czajkowski prod :)10:25
MooDooczajkowski: prod10:25
dogmatic69could anyone recommend a program for checking what is using disk space from terminal?10:25
dogmatic69need to find out why a server is full10:26
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: df10:26
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: start from /:10:26
MartijnVdScd /10:26
MartijnVdSdf -h *10:26
davmor2dogmatic69: du -sh or df -h10:26
MooDoodavmor2: i suppose we could create a site giveczajkowskiajob.com and edit it will a gazillion testimonials :D10:26
dogmatic69i was using df -h10:26
davmor2MooDoo: no shes gotten used to picking on the agencies till they give her work now ;)10:27
czajkowskinever got work via agencies10:28
dogmatic69MartijnVdS: df -h always shows the whole drive regardless of where i am10:28
czajkowskiI applied directly to all companies10:28
davmor2czajkowski: yeap but picking on the agencies is fun10:28
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: uhr, you need "du -sh"10:28
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: sorry, one letter off: )10:28
dogmatic69du -sh in / is slow :/10:29
MooDoodogmatic69: yeah but it's doing a whole disk calculation10:29
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: of course, it goes over the entire disks, adding up file sizes10:29
dogmatic69and then it just says the whole amount, not per folder10:29
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: du -sh * in /10:30
MooDoodu -h from / will show you per folder10:30
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: should tell you per folder10:30
dogmatic69MooDoo: that seems to be in the right direction.10:30
dogmatic69just need something like http://bin.cakephp.org/10:32
dogmatic69du -h is showing every single folder10:32
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: cd / ; du -sh *10:32
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: then drill down -> cd largest_dir; du -sh *10:32
dogmatic69thanks all10:33
dogmatic69what is var/spool?10:34
dogmatic69its using 4GIG of my 8GIG drive :/10:34
bigcalmIt holds mail for one10:34
dogmatic69dont even have a mail server10:34
MartijnVdSmail, cronjobs10:34
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: which directory in /var/spool?10:34
MartijnVdSso you DO have a mail server: postfix10:35
dogmatic69well, clearly10:35
dogmatic69its not used10:35
davmor2dogmatic69: if you want more indepth info do du --help,  -a prints info for all files10:35
dogmatic69its postfix/maildrop that is 3.6GIG10:35
bigcalmRight. Fresh install of 11.10 and the workstation still reboots when I tell it to shutdown. I guess the machine itself might be at fault :(10:35
dogmatic69could i just empty out that dir?10:36
dogmatic69it just seems to have lots like : 4.0K21DCA27DA110:36
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: try "mailq"10:36
MartijnVdSit'll show you what's trying to send the mail10:37
dogmatic69hold on, server is complaining about the last command10:37
MartijnVdS(so you can prevent this from happening again)10:37
davmor2bigcalm: that's odd indeed, shutsdown all of my machines10:37
bigcalmMy workstation is the only one that still reboots itself10:37
dogmatic69MartijnVdS: just has BEE032D0C2      382 Wed Aug 31 01:27:01  ubuntu /n  ubuntu10:38
dogmatic69lots of them obviously10:38
bigcalmIt did it while I was still on 11.04. But only part way though the year. I can't remember when it started10:38
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: you could configure postfix properly, then you'd get these things mailed daily10:39
MartijnVdS(or however often this happens)10:39
davmor2bigcalm: could be a short on the board when was the last time you gave it a service?  I try and give mine a good clean down every six months if I can10:39
dogmatic69MartijnVdS: will try10:39
dogmatic69should clear them out first10:39
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: man postqueue10:39
bigcalmBeen a wee while I guess10:39
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: that's for managing / flushing / purging the queue10:40
bigcalmdavmor2: will give it some TLC at the weekend10:40
davmor2bigcalm: might fix it who knows :)10:41
dogmatic69MartijnVdS: looks like postqueue -f actually tries to send the mail? do  you know of an option to just delete everything10:42
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: there is one.. I don't know which one10:42
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: it's in the manual10:42
dogmatic69found a blog saying rm /var/spool/mail dir10:43
MartijnVdSno that's different10:43
MartijnVdSpostsuper -d ALL deferred10:43
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: ^10:43
dogmatic69MartijnVdS: removed the deferred and it did something...10:45
dogmatic69postsuper: Deleted: 100530 messages10:45
MartijnVdSthat's a lot10:45
MartijnVdSI'd start figuring out where they come from10:45
MartijnVdSmust be some cron job sending them10:45
dogmatic69before / after10:46
MartijnVdSdogmatic69: now start tail -f /var/log/mail.log to see what's mailing you so often; )10:47
dogmatic69no mail.log10:47
sgordonAfternoon. Quick bit of Qemu help if poss?11:02
bigcalmYikes, afternoon already11:04
bigcalmAny 11.10 users here who also have spotify, what's your deb line in /etc/apt/sources.list ?11:09
sgordonHmm, the qemu option to create a samba share on the host (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/QEMU#Samba) I just can't get working11:09
smittixbigcalm: I'm sure im using the same for natty11:10
smittixDo you want that line?11:10
sgordonBut created a static share on the host (plain share) and it's ok. must be the bit on that link that says "It seems that there is an incompatibility with Samba 3.x. and some versions of QEMU."11:10
bigcalmYes please11:10
smittixbigcalm: deb http://repository.spotify.com stable non-free11:11
bigcalmI have: deb http://repository.spotify.com stable non-free11:11
bigcalmBut it's not working11:11
smittixWhat's it saying?11:11
bigcalmFrom sudo apt-get update:11:11
bigcalmW: Failed to fetch http://repository.spotify.com/dists/stable/InRelease  Unable to find expected entry 'non-free/source/Sources' in Release file (Wrong sources.list entry or malformed file)11:11
smittixdoes apt-get install info give you any output?11:15
bigcalmiain@snafu:~$ sudo apt-get install spotify-client-qt11:15
bigcalmReading package lists... Done11:15
bigcalmBuilding dependency tree11:15
bigcalmReading state information... Done11:15
bigcalmE: Unable to locate package spotify-client-qt11:15
bigcalmPardon the spam11:16
smittixI have just noticed I have the deb line but no client, must have not installed it on this laptop yet. But when trying I get the same results.11:17
bigcalmDon't really want to run it in wine11:18
bigcalmMay have to though11:18
smittixYeah until something is sorted.11:18
smittixcan you pastebin your /etc/apt/sources.list for me?11:19
bigcalmWhat cli to paste bin app do people use?11:20
lubotu3`pastebinit is the command-line equivalent of !pastebin - Command output, or other text can be redirected to pastebinit, which then reports an URL containing the output - To use pastebinit, install the « pastebinit » package from a package manager - Simple usage: command | pastebinit -b http://paste.ubuntu.com11:21
bigcalmAh, it's installed :)11:21
smittixbigcalm: Comment out the src line for spotify and try again.11:22
smittixor remove it completely11:23
bigcalmBloody synergy not sending keys correctly11:24
smittixNow I will go and do the same heh11:24
* davmor2 gets up and switches the light on11:29
MooDoodavmor2: I'M MELTING!!!!11:30
davmor2bigcalm: just use rhythmbox and listen to absolute80's :P11:31
davmor2MooDoo: why I didn't pour water on you :P11:32
MooDoodavmor2: ok ok another quote "Bright light, Bright Light"11:33
bigcalmI've taken to listening to a mix of '80s' and 'electronic' on the Spotify 'radio' page11:33
davmor2MooDoo: you're not cute and cuddly or called gizmo11:33
davmor2bigcalm: but the best electronic is in the 80's surely the 2 just play the same classy music ;)11:34
bigcalmdavmor2: I got fed up of the frequency of the adverts on Absolute 80s :(11:35
* DJones takes a baseball & goes looking for indescribable person who smashed his wifes car window & stole her bag & purse11:35
davmor2bigcalm: understandable :)11:35
DJoness/baseball/baseball bat11:35
bigcalmdavmor2: And I pay for advert free Spotify *shrug*11:35
bigcalmStill like Absolute80s :)11:35
davmor2bigcalm: makes sense then,  I just bought a dab radio to save on the bandwidth :)11:36
selinuxiumUnder System Settings there is an Online Accounts app... Any idea what this connects to? You can set up gmail accounts but I have no idea what it effects...11:37
MooDoodavmor2: i so am cute and cuddly, just as czajkowski :)11:38
czajkowskiselinuxium: oi where were you last week11:38
MooDoodavmor2: s/as/ask11:38
davmor2czajkowski: hiding from you're abuse obviously :)11:39
davmor2MooDoo: thanks for clarifying I thought you were making czajkowski out to be cute and cuddly ;)11:39
czajkowskiam not in the mood11:40
davmor2MooDoo: ^ see proof czajkowski isn't on form11:40
selinuxiumczajkowski, I had my reasons... :) Really wanted to be there..11:42
czajkowskitis ok11:42
czajkowski1 more month and am here a year11:42
czajkowskiwe can celebrate that shall we :p11:42
MooDooparty at czajkowski house11:43
czajkowskieh no11:43
smittixbigcalm: I found an artist called FrankMusik which is pretty good11:45
davmor2MooDoo: party at cask for czajkowski is more realistic11:45
czajkowskiKjs is nicer11:46
czajkowskidoesnt' get as hot11:46
MooDoodavmor2: ah where ever you go i'll probably not make it :( pah!11:47
davmor2czajkowski: I don't care I don't drink :D11:48
* popey notes the air con was broken at the cask, which is why it was so hot11:49
czajkowskiaye last few times it's been similar and not nearly as packed11:50
czajkowskidoesnt help the seats are heated11:50
czajkowskibut it's a nice pub and has lovely beers11:50
davmor2czajkowski: and the burgers are good11:50
MooDoohmmm burgers11:53
czajkowskiwith bacon on top11:54
davmor2see that peeked MooDoo's interest11:54
MooDooi'm a foody11:54
Seeker`What kernel does 11.10 run?11:57
davmor2Seeker`: I'm going with a linux kernel ;)11:59
* daubers is particularly grumpy today for reasons unknown12:05
* popey tickles daubers 12:06
ikoniapopey: just realised it's easy to talk to you where than silly web applications12:08
Seeker`davmor2: hah. hah. hah.12:10
* Seeker` fails at parsing ikonia's message12:10
Seeker`bigcalm: thanks12:10
ikoniaSeeker`: let me send you the decrypter tool to crack the code12:11
popeyHere's the URL:- Facebook.com12:11
ikonialet me also correct my crappy typing12:11
ikoniapopey: ssshhhhh, that's the code breaker12:11
ikoniait's the enigma machine website12:11
* ikonia moves to bebo12:11
ikoniapopey: so you really think there is a visual difference ?12:12
ikoniaok, you've sold me, I'm going to the apple shop in an hour or two anyway, I'll do a back to back12:12
ikoniaI need to know now12:12
ikoniaI liked it better when I had a degree of confidence in my head12:12
popeybrowsing is faster, email is faster, springboard is snappier12:12
ikonianow I don't12:12
ikoniapopey: that's not what I want to hear12:13
ikoniaSeeker`: going to pickup the new mbp12:13
Seeker`same as mine?12:13
ikoniafinally caved in12:13
gordi hear ice-cream sandwich is great, first i thought people were just bragging about their lunch12:13
Seeker`queue apple press conference in....5 hours? :P12:13
ikoniawrote a letter to apple yesterday saying "WHERE IS THE NEW MAC PRO !!! I WISH TO SPEND MONEY"12:13
ikoniaSeeker`: totally, no less than 14 hours12:14
ikoniano more sorry12:14
bigcalmHas the Nexus Prime (or whatever it's called now) been released?12:14
gordsurely its nexus three by now?12:14
gordwell i guess it was S instead of 2... what does S mean again?12:14
bigcalm3.5 or 4?12:14
oimonyou mean galaxy nexus?12:15
selinuxiumSamsung Nexus?  Not yet...12:15
bigcalmRight, so what is the new Nexus handset being made by Samsung called?12:15
oimongalaxy nexus12:16
oimonrunning android 4.012:16
Seeker`ikonia: rumours that the MBP refresh will be this month, but not expecting more than a processor bump12:16
oimonSeeker`: i heard they are laser etching a portrait of jobs onto each one12:17
selinuxiumoimon, November... http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-galaxy-nexus-with-android-4-0-official-103483712:17
oimondidn't get much from than tron-esque video about android 4.0 though12:18
DJonesbigcalm: I thought from previous speculation that the Nexus would bear the Galaxy S2, but looking at this review, it doesn't quite beat it http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/42623/galaxy-nexus-vs-samsung-galaxy-s-212:18
ikoniaSeeker`: told you !!!!12:19
ikoniathe moment I press "buy"12:19
bigcalmOh hum :S12:19
bigcalmWell, won't be getting a new handset until April, but it would be nice to know what I might be able to get :)12:20
Seeker`Latest news is that "new model numbers are starting to appear" whatever that means12:20
Seeker`like I said, rumour is that it'll be using some new intel processors, not much more though12:20
DJonesI'd picked out the S2 as my next one, then thought the Nexus would be better, but having 2nd thoughts now12:20
oimondo they have the same screen size?12:21
Seeker`ikonia: ^12:21
ikoniaI don't care really12:21
DJonesoimon: Nexus blows the S2 out of the water for screen size, but from that review is slower12:21
ikoniaI just want the Mac Pro to be released12:21
oimons2 is rather big12:22
oimoni guess the new galaxy nexus doesn't need real buttons though, hence, bigger screen12:22
DJonesI wouldn't notice the size of the S2, seems slighlty smaller than the Desire HD I've got now anyway12:23
oimons2 is bigger than the desire12:24
DJonesoimon: Screen size itself is supposed to be a fraction smaller looking at this http://bigphonefight.com/samsung-galaxy-s2-32gb-vs-htc-desire-hd-review12:24
popeyikonia: colour on the 4s camera is much better12:25
oimonnexus doesn't have expandable storage? massive fail if true12:25
ikoniapopey: making a note for my back to backs12:25
oimonDJones: sorry i forgot the HD is much bigger than the desire12:25
popeyikonia: just uploading a pic now...12:25
DJonesoimon: Yes, a fair bit bigger, I don't notice its bigger than previous phones though, its still a comfortable hand holding size12:26
popeyikonia: http://twitter.com/#!/popey/status/126635208400322560/photo/112:27
ikoniapopey: it's sharper12:28
ikoniaright I'm off to the apple store12:28
Seeker`ikonia: have fun12:29
oimonevery new android iteration gets a bit closer to cyanogen :P12:30
davmor2oimon: but every new android release and cyanogen improves that bit more too :D12:31
oimonyep. mint vs ubuntu should be like that too, but doesn't really work taht way in practice12:31
oimoni can't really see much that mint improve on12:32
DJonesI don't think mint should be compared with ubuntu as much now since they moved to Debian as their base system12:33
oimonnot exclusively, surely? i thought they were trying both out, hence "mint debian" and mint (ubuntu).12:33
* oimon checks12:34
oimonLinux Mint 11 is based on Ubuntu 11.04. 12:35
oimoni notice they raise a decent amount in sponsorship/donations.12:37
DJonesI thought they'd completely changed to a debian base instead of ubuntu from 11.04 ish, but looks like they've forked Mint, one side still ubuntu, the other debian based12:37
tonytigerLeaving two wafer thin Mints12:37
oimonbah-dum chish12:37
DJonesHeh, seems like the debian edition is debian testing + mint on top giving it a rolling release, rather than the 6 monthly updates of ubuntu12:39
czajkowskiplan B and C have kicked off :)12:39
MooDooczajkowski: b and c?12:40
czajkowskibe patient12:41
siyaDid a dist upgrade a while back and my path variable seems to have changed12:42
tonytigerczajkowski: nice blog post about job hunting BTW. Tallies with my experience of on-line recruitment12:42
siyaring any bells w anyone?12:42
siyahow to correct it? Nothing in ~/.bashrc about path for me12:42
czajkowskitonytiger: cheers12:42
czajkowskiI'll do an update12:42
czajkowskias I found out I didnt get a job by logging into one syste last week12:43
czajkowskino email12:43
czajkowskijust update the system12:43
tonytigerI don't think job sites are much use, apart from helping you identify companies you might want to work for. I've never had anything other than silence or automated PFO e-mails from them.12:44
oimonsiya: check /etc/environment file12:51
smittixI need some Ubuntu stickers12:53
MooDoogo there smittix :)12:53
siyaoimon, I did and that looks fine12:56
bigcalmWhere does gpodder keep its settings?12:56
siyafor some reason my profile doesn't get that that but only a very minimalistic path12:56
siyadjerk@djerk-nsc:~$ cat /etc/environment12:57
siyadjerk@djerk-nsc:~$ echo $PATH12:57
bigcalm.config/gpodder, hazar12:57
oimontype source /etc/environment and repeat the echo command12:58
smittixMooDoo: Ta, Quite cheap too13:00
MooDoosmittix: no probs13:01
siyaoimon, thnx that fixed it for this session. However what about when i reboot?13:01
oimonnot sure what's happening. however .bashrc or .bash_profile would be a good place to override settings. also see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnvironmentVariables13:02
CaMasonhi guys. I can't upgrade to Oneiric - I get: "404  Not Found [IP: 80]"13:02
bigcalmCaMason: try chaning your software sources to Main Server via the Update Manager13:03
CaMasonok, it was set to UK server13:03
bigcalmI've had hit and miss results with the UK server. Mostly it's just very slow13:04
CaMasonsame issue :'(13:04
CaMason404  Not Found [IP: 80], different IP this time13:04
bigcalmThat's now an issue I've had before. Can anybody else help?13:04
oimonare you behind a proxy?13:05
oimonworth a try :)13:05
oimonhttp:// shows sucess in a browser for me13:06
CaMasonsame here13:06
CaMasoncurl shows it fine also13:06
bigcalmDo you get the same error trying to upgrade from the cli?13:07
CaMasonthis is from CLI (do-dist-upgrade)13:08
CaMasonit's trying to GET `/ubuntu/dists/oneiric-proposed/main/dist-upgrader-all/`13:08
CaMasonany thoughts why it's looking at 'proposed' ?13:10
bigcalmWhere you using 11.10 before release?13:12
CaMasonnope. 11.04 on here13:13
bigcalmSame as me on 2 machines, neither with that issue :(13:13
oimonoh no, jimmy wales banners are back on wikipedia!13:15
Joeb454CaMason: if you're doing an upgrade, did you have proposed enabled on your previous install?13:18
CaMasonno, never have13:18
CaMasonhttp:// is pointing to a UpgradeTool that is 40413:21
CaMason"http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/oneiric-proposed/main/dist-upgrader-all/" does not exist13:22
CaMasonbasically, it looks like 'http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release' is wrong13:25
oimonCaMason: yeah, checking http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/oneiric-proposed/main/dist-upgrader-all/ doesn't show a .113:29
oimonit should use the symbolic link to current13:29
oimonCaMason: can you edit /var/lib/update-manager/meta-release by hand?13:32
CaMasondone - upgrade is progressing now. Still, that's a dirty fix13:33
oimonyeah, worth reporting on launchpad13:36
Laneyit is known13:37
=== SWAT__ is now known as SWAT
gorddecided to turn the revo into a makeshift team fortress 2 server, should be a fun experiment :)14:11
popeyto take to UDS?14:12
gordwondering if the revo will cut it, i figure these servers are mostly ram limited14:14
gordrevo ram is cheep14:14
popeyif I was going I'd have brought one of my revos as a minecraft server :D14:14
davmor2gord: of course it will, I'm sure14:15
Seeker`:O popey is my friend14:18
MartijnVdSPopey has friends?!14:23
* bigcalm flops14:23
* gord flips14:24
* popey flaps14:24
* davmor2 fails...... at finding a fl*ps that hasn't already been taken14:26
shaunopopey: I gotta ask .. 4S? or did you cave to peer pressure ;)14:26
gordflex? es14:26
shaunogood lad :)14:26
gordwhat does the S stand for there?14:27
gordis S the new xp?14:27
shaunoI've wondered that myself.  and how they can possibly plan on making sense after 4S14:27
shaunopopular rumour is that iphone5 comes next, but if it does, it'll be the 6th iphone14:28
gordnot seen this one before... "W: Failed to fetch copy:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/security.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_oneiric-security_multiverse_i18n_Index  Encountered a section with no Package: header"14:28
davmor2popey: apple are getting into paint now......oh deluxe14:28
Azelphurshauno: samsungs already teamed up with google and cyanogen to put out it's winner :P14:28
shaunoyeah I saw that this morning14:29
Azelphurtis funny how far behind the iphone 4s's hardware is compared to androids ridiculously old offerings xD14:29
AzelphurI see blogs comparing it to the galaxy S2 and the galaxy S2 wins xD14:29
shaunoI kinda rather there isn't a winner.  keeps life interesting14:29
popeyi see lots of people rave about phones they dont have14:30
popeyand bitch about phones they have never seen14:30
popeyjust buy a phone and get on with your life14:31
shaunoit's not like I hold stock or anything.  as long as there's some sorta competition between them, we keep getting new toys \o/14:31
daubers\o/ toys14:31
gordi mostly just bitch about the phone i do have14:32
gordstupid thing14:32
davmor2Oh \o/ for new shinies14:32
oimona friend was visiting the other day and said he wanted to ditch his iphone for cost reasons . he had never seen android before so i showed him. he was like WOW DUDE this is awesome. i said, how much u paying per month (£35-40). i said "hmm.. my android+ mrs oimon's android is less than that combined14:33
bigcalmPeople will like and dislike each handset for different reasons. I agree with popey that people get a phone and get on with life :)14:35
daubersThe missus wants to ditch her iPhone. Silly thing keeps dropping calls/not ringing even though it rings on the other end/not sending SMS messages until she turns it off and on/removing her apps randomly/not sounding the alarm at the correct time14:35
daubersHaving said that, for some reason my galaxy reboots randomly on occasion14:35
bigcalmdaubers: put cm7.1 on it and have a happier life ;)14:36
daubersbigcalm: I might do at some point14:36
daubersSee if sammy brings ICS to it first14:36
oimonthe only weird issue i've noticed is that sense enabled htc woke itself up during the night on more than 2 ocassions. mine and mrs woke up at same time. never happened to me since CM7, while wife had it again last week14:37
gordi used to play wordfeud with a guy that worked nights, that was dumb. woke me up every day14:37
oimonby "woke up" i mean that the phone had been shutdown, turned off14:38
* shauno didn't start this, honest14:38
bigcalmICS will make it into CM in time. Now sure how many older handsets will be able to support it though14:38
daubersshauno: Heh :)14:38
daubersshauno: The one nice thing I used to think about the iPhone was that it looked/felt slightly nicer in the hand than most androids. Not sure that's true any more, but haven't seen a real 4S yet, so am holding back on that statement14:39
shaunoI find it interesting that they're so polarizing14:40
diplobigcalm, I expect it will, isn't the CM guy now working for Samsung14:40
bigcalmdiplo: if I recall his tweets, aye14:41
popeydavmor2: that is true14:42
gordhttp://uds.ubuntu.com/evening-programme/ woo lan party scheduled :)14:42
popeyyet to hold an android phone which feels as nice in the hand as iphone14:42
Seeker`hmm, got a friend having problems with unity. How do you stop the app bar auto-hiding, and how do you create desktop shortcuts?14:42
czajkowskigord: install guideboook via market14:42
czajkowskiand search ubuntu14:42
czajkowskiuds stuff on there14:42
gordczajkowski, is that the thing we used at last uds? i didn't like that14:43
bigcalmWhen I hold my Nexus One, 'plastic' is never a term that springs to mind :)14:43
czajkowskigord: no idea wasnt at uds14:43
dauberspopey: I do think that's a very subjective thing. I quite like the feel of my galaxy in the hand, but because the iPhone is heavier, it feels more substantial.... not sure why that makes any sense to me tbh :)14:43
davmor2Yay Beliour organic Ginger Beer ftw14:43
* daubers doesn't understand ginger beer14:45
davmor2popey: I'll stick to my milestones I still can't get used to trying to type on touchscreen14:45
daubersginger is nice, beer is nice, ginger beer is an abomination unto nuggan!14:45
bigcalmdaubers: Crabbies ;)14:45
davmor2daubers: you haven't lived my friend14:45
daubersmeh, give me a decent whiskey instead any day of the week14:46
davmor2bigcalm: no this beats the socks off of it and it has no alcohol :)14:46
bigcalmBest kind of ginger is King's Ginger :D14:46
davmor2bigcalm: well very ver y very little14:46
Seeker`anyone? how do you create desktop shortcuts in unity, and how do you stop the bar auto hiding?14:47
davmor2Seeker`: how do you mean create desktop shortcuts?  and you need to install ccsm and edit the unity section to stop the bar hiding14:49
livingdaylightI installed recordmydesktop, but can't find it in menu. Can someone please tell me where it is, how to launch it?14:52
Seeker`davmor2: create an icon on the desktop which launches something, say a terminal that ssh's in to another machine14:52
Seeker`and apparently ccsm causes unity to hang14:52
popeylivingdaylight: what version of ubuntu?14:53
popeyit's called "desktop recorder" i think14:53
livingdaylightpopey, hi14:53
livingdaylightpopey, still on 11.0414:53
smittixI like Xvidcap better14:54
popeyi like my own script better :D14:54
popeyrecords to h264+aac in mkv (which uploads direct to yootoob)14:55
popeyand doesnt miss frames like xvidcap does14:55
livingdaylightpopey i dl it from ubuntu software as recordmydesktop but find no entry or for desktop recorder14:55
popeyor go out of sync like recordmydesktop14:55
popeylivingdaylight: you probably wanted gtk-recordmydesktop14:55
gordis that the ffmpeg thing popey? because that works wonderfully14:55
livingdaylightsmittix, Xvidcap is better? is that in reference to me?14:56
popeythats what I do14:57
livingdaylightwhere is xvidcap14:57
popeylivingdaylight: dont use xvidcap, its horribly broken14:57
oimonCaMason: i think laney fixed the meta-release page14:57
Laneymvo did14:57
Laneyi just saw it happen14:57
oimoncool ..irc win :D14:57
CaMasonPici in main room was prodding some devs14:58
CaMasonI did some investigation and found that meta-release was incorrect for some reason, and now it's changed14:58
livingdaylightpopey, where do you put that script?14:58
popeyi put it in /usr/local/bin/14:58
popeybut it might need newer / different ffmpeg and sox installed14:58
smittixlivingdaylight: Yeah, Personally I prefer it :)14:59
livingdaylightin a folder?14:59
livingdaylightsmittix, i'm not walking over the precipice with you :p14:59
popeylivingdaylight: you can use gtk-recordmydesktop, you don't have to change just because me and smittix use other things :D14:59
livingdaylightpopey, sure, just wondering what you do. Coz you do it alot :)15:00
smittixheh "popey: dont use xvidcap, its horribly brokem"15:00
livingdaylightI would've just used recordmydesktop because i wasn't aware of anything else, but can't find it. When I alt+F2 and launch recordmydesktop I get lookit15:00
popeylivingdaylight: have you installed gtk-recordmydesktop?15:01
livingdaylightI do now15:02
popeyyou will now find it in the menu15:02
livingdaylightpreviously had recordmydesktop15:02
livingdaylightdidn't realize that gtk- ..... was the front end15:02
davmor2Seeker`: so meeting so to create desktop shortcuts all apps have icons drag the icon for the launcher done, if you want it on the desktop itself then do it the way you used to iirc,  ccsm only tends to hang unity if you change the default gfx all you are doing is changing elements in unity that should be fine15:05
Seeker`davmor2: it seems that he has to use unity2d to get the autohide to work without crashing unity15:06
livingdaylightpopey does the script going into /usr/local/bin need to go into a folder and what is the name?15:08
popeyheh, you want to play with that?15:08
popey /usr/local/bin is a folder15:08
popeyjust save that in there and call it "ffscreencast.sh" or something15:09
popeythen you can call it from anywhere by just running ffscreencast.sh15:10
popeybut you will need ffmpeg and sox at least installed15:10
livingdaylightok, I'll see. Thanks15:10
popeyfeedback welcome15:10
popeyI might convert it to an app one day15:10
Seeker`mmmh, fairly convinced my switch to windows / osx for day-to-day usage of computers was a wise one now, after seeing how long / how much fiddling it takes to get simple stuff working properly on linux15:11
Seeker`my friend has been using linux on and off for years, and is pretty bright, and it took him a couple of hours to work out how to stop application windows disappearing or the app launcher crashing if he tried to disable auto-hide - I can't see how ubuntu will solve bug #1 if something as simple as "maximise the window" doesn't work correctly out of the box15:16
lubotu3`Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/115:16
bigcalmWhy did lubotu3` just wake up?15:17
oimonSeeker mentioned a bug #15:17
bigcalmAh, so I see. Didn't except it to activate on such a full line15:18
skybinaryhello ubuntu-uk, is there an easy way to install my netgear usb wireless adapter (wna1100)?15:19
popeyplug it in?15:19
skybinaryheh! thanks popey15:20
popeytell us what happens15:20
skybinaryok, done that, but when i reboot puter locks up :(15:20
popeymaybe install pastebinit, and run "dmesg | pastebinit"15:20
popeywhy reboot?15:20
popey^^^ do that15:21
skybinaryi adjusted my gfx15:21
popeywell hang on, thats not your wifi stick then15:21
skybinaryi took it out to boot up agin15:21
skybinarynow its in it shows up as netger inc in lsusb15:21
skybinarybut no nothing in lshw -C network15:22
skybinarypopey, no but to be fair to me u asked why i rebooted15:22
davmor2Seeker`: what makes you think maximise windows don't work out of the box?   It works fine here.15:23
popeymy bad15:23
Seeker`ok, maybe not quite out of the box15:23
Seeker`but it suggests isntallign nvidia drivers15:24
Seeker`and once you do so, it may hit a bug in them which causes windows to randomly go white15:24
davmor2Seeker`: so that is an issue with the nvidia binary driver that we can nothing about then.15:25
Seeker`apart from not telling people to install them if they break basic functionality like that?15:25
popeytried nouveau?15:26
Seeker`He's given up and is sticking to unity2d for now, which seems to be a little more stable15:26
Seeker`but the point is that I don't think any OS pops up with a message suggesting something to install within minutes of booting up for the first time with bugs as big as that15:30
Seeker`apart from Ubuntu (and maybe a few other *nix)15:30
Seeker`also, I have absolutely no idea where to report that sort of general problem to15:39
davmor2Seeker`: You would need to file that against nvidia, Ubuntu only offers the binary driver for install you can if you wish completely ignore it15:40
Seeker`davmor2: I don't mean that specific issue - there is already a 6 month old bug for that15:41
Seeker`I mean the general issue that the default for a new install is to suggest that a user install broken software which breaks simple functionality like having content in a window15:42
Seeker`the fact that there is actually a popup to suggest installing software that does that sort of thing is a bug in itself15:42
Seeker`and after spending 5 minutes seeing someone try to use unity, there seems to be basic functionality missing. Like being able to edit shortcuts to apps in the gui15:46
davmor2Seeker`: No it isn't!  Jockey only lets you know there are binary drivers that it couldn't shipped by default it doesn't tell you that you have to install the driver15:47
davmor2Seeker`: how do you mean? ref the editing15:47
Seeker`it doesn't tell you that you _have_ to install it. But the assumption is that if an OS points you to something just after you install it then its not going to stop you from being able to use your computer15:48
popeylolwut Seeker`15:49
tonytigerA fair assumption15:49
popeyyou're saying that because there is _one_ bug which is pain for some users, we should supress the installation of some software for _all_ users?15:49
popeyif that were the case you might as well ship an empty CD15:49
popeyno software is bug free15:50
bigcalmEven tonytiger's sound board?15:50
Seeker`davmor2: if you want to change the startup options for a shortcut in windows you right click and there is a gui where you can edit the target path, arguments to be passed to the program on launch. How do you edit the same options in unity?15:50
popeySeeker`: you edit the .desktop file manually15:50
popeySeeker`: there is a bug filed for that15:50
popey(I filed it)15:50
bigcalmIt would be nice if there were user local .desktop files that overrode those in /usr/share/applications15:51
bigcalmDon't like editing system installed files15:51
tonytigerbigcalm: definitely not bug free15:52
Seeker`you don't have to disable it for everyone, but you work out which hardware (in this case) the bug applies to and not suggest it to them if it breaks it that badly15:52
bigcalmtonytiger: awww15:52
popeySeeker`: we already have code that does something like that15:52
davmor2Seeker`: And how would you propose that is done?  There are literally billions of combinations of hardware out there if it breaks for 1% that is good odds15:53
popeydavmor2: pretty sure we have code paths that do it15:54
popeyif device = XXX then popup "This device is known to be problematic"15:54
oimongoing from 10.04 to 11.10 has meant that 1GB RAM is no longer enough :-\15:56
Seeker`it is probably better to not put the popup by default if there is a slim chance of it not working than to put it up and break stuff if you are at all interested in the usability of the system15:56
popeywe have loads of bodges in the system already15:56
popeytake a look at /etc/modprobe.d/*15:56
Seeker`either that or pay nvidia enough to actually create a decent set of drivers15:57
davmor2Seeker`: Oh thanks for offering we'll leave that one with you then?15:57
popeyhas the bug you're talking about been filed upstream to nvidia?15:58
Seeker`popey: afaik, yes15:58
davmor2popey: there is for issues across the board, how ever I've noted personally that sometimes it's x card with y motherboard that is the issue and x card in z mobo is fine  so there is that catch 22 situation15:59
lubotu3`Ubuntu bug 753144 in compiz (Ubuntu) "focused, or maximized windows blank" [High,Confirmed]15:59
Seeker`davmor2: the point I am trying to make is that bug 1 will never be solved while ubuntu suggests to people to install software that could make their system difficult to use properly16:00
lubotu3`Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/116:00
popeylike banshee?16:01
popeyor firefox16:01
popeyor openoffice?16:01
ali1234yes, like banshee16:01
popeyall of those apps have quite serious bugs in them16:01
davmor2Seeker`: Yeah and my point is if it works for 99 out of 100 people then that is good odds16:01
ali1234i refer you to what i said the other day16:02
popeyi see no upstream bug on that Seeker`16:02
Seeker`if you want a majority market share then 1% is still a _lot_ of people16:02
davmor2ali1234: rhythmbox FTW16:02
ali1234chasing market share is a terrible idea16:02
popeysomeone who experiences the bug should put together a report to nvidia16:02
Seeker`popey: comment # 14316:02
popeyahh, excellent16:02
ali1234btw i also get blank windows in the switcher16:03
ali1234bug 86962816:04
lubotu3`Launchpad bug 869628 in unity (Ubuntu) "White rectangles instead of window previews in switcher." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/86962816:04
popeyooo thats nice16:04
davmor2Seeker`: how many hardware issues do you think there are on a windows system?  And they have the bulk of the market still,  Apple uses CUPS the same as Ubuntu so not all printer work for them either so does that mean you should install Ubuntu Window or Ios on any device?  Or just only be able to buy a very specific set of hardware and pay over the odds for it?16:04
ali1234it happens every single time16:05
Seeker`I just don't see how Ubuntu can progress properly to a system that is seriously considered by the general public when the default applications or suggested actions cause breakage16:05
ali1234i think it happens if the windows are minimized, or on another workspace16:05
ali1234that is, any window that isn't currently visible, will not be made visible in the switcher16:05
oimonbug 74771716:05
lubotu3`Launchpad bug 747717 in nvidia-graphics-drivers (Ubuntu) "11.04 - opening too many windows causes new windows to render blank white" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/74771716:05
gordSeeker`, because "the general public" will get a laptop, that happens to have ubuntu on it, that has known working hardware16:05
ali1234it will just be a blank space instead16:05
ali1234gord: known working hardware you say? would that be intel, nvidia or ati?16:06
gordwhatever the OEM chooses to use16:06
gordoem's have money, that pays developers to fix issues16:06
oimonalthough intel drivers have been screwy latrely (2yrs) if i don't play games i usually get intel16:07
ali1234so ubuntu only supports OEM hardware now16:07
Laneymaybe i should install windows for this lan party16:07
ali1234or rather, ubuntu doesn't support any hardware... that is up to the OEM16:07
MartijnVdSoimon: Intel drivers have been getting a lot better16:07
Seeker`davmor2: far fewer than with Ubuntu. And yes, MS can throw money at the problem to fix it, but I've seen far fewer edge case errors with a fresh windows install than ubuntu16:08
davmor2Seeker`: is that a fresh Windows install or the one that came with the all the drivers on that the manufacture ships?16:08
ali1234it's a clean install16:09
ali1234the shitty image that manufacturers ship is just as bad as ubuntu16:09
ali1234except it has slightly more annoying junk preinstalled16:09
* popey hands out AOL CDs16:10
davmor2Seeker`: I can tell you from working in a repair shop that a clean install of windows is a nightmare till you get all the drivers installed and then it's not always great16:10
ali1234and yes, i am mad that ubuntu is now as bad or worse than windows16:10
Seeker`Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Ubuntu more widely used, but seeing the experiences of someone with a decent knowledge of computers and that is signfiicantly brighter than the national average I wouldn't consider it anywhere near ready for use in a lot of situations16:10
ali1234once again, users who are capable of contributing get the thin end of the wedge16:10
Seeker`davmor2: fresh windows install is usually usable, even without installing any extra drivers16:11
ali1234the fallback VGA drivers on windows work fine16:11
MartijnVdSDo we ship with the new graphics thing yet?16:12
davmor2Seeker`: gord has actually hit the nail on the head though the general public will buy the hardware with software already on and the hardware will likely be certified functioning16:12
Seeker`The only problems I've had int he last few years with a windows isntall have been due to me screwing around with overclocking16:12
ali1234MartijnVdS: you can install wayland-demos, but it doesn't work16:12
ali1234davmor2: how does that help me?16:13
Seeker`mmm, I don't think that will be sufficient if there are critical bugs in the most used software like popey suggested16:13
MartijnVdSali1234: wasn't it going to be the next big thing, and wouldn't it solve the graphics driver changing on the fly issue?16:13
ali1234MartijnVdS: it is supposed to be the next big thing yes16:14
ali1234however, OEMs will likely not support it until it is popular16:14
ali1234and it won't become popular until OEMs support it16:14
* MartijnVdS senses a catch-2216:14
davmor2the computer world is full of catch 22's16:15
ali1234it doesn't actually make it easier to get drivers out of OEMs16:15
ali1234in fact it makes it harder because even the ones we currently have need to be rewritten16:15
issyl0popey: Don't suppose you have the link to tomorrow's Happy Hour info page?16:15
popeyissyl0: loco.ubuntu.com16:16
MartijnVdSissyl0: 1277!16:16
MartijnVdS(and I'm not even coming..>)16:16
issyl0Thanks, all.  :-)16:16
ali1234so as i was saying16:18
ali1234if ubuntu is only going to work properly on OEM hardware, which pretty much by definition is going to mean closed drivers16:18
popeyBack to the rant.16:18
ali1234then that rather makes it difficult for me to contribute anything of value16:19
popeyCome to the pub tomorrow ali1234, even as your alter-ego16:19
popeyDunno, it's sekrit :D16:19
Laneymr moanivator?16:20
MonsterwizardI don't feel motivated16:20
Seeker`also, going back to the driver issue, it may not say that you have to install it, but it does say both "recommended" and that it has been tested with ubuntu16:20
MonsterwizardMy CS degree is worth something isn't it?16:20
Monsterwizardpeople always seem to complain about it16:20
MartijnVdSMonsterwizard: "Uncle Owen? This R2 unit has a bad motivator!"16:20
MonsterwizardBut how I see it, is my skills are limited to what I did in uni16:21
Laneyit robbed you of the ability to learn new things?16:21
Seeker`I don't think there are many other ways you can word it that imply "you should do this" any more without actually saying "you have to install this"16:21
ali1234although really, given that it is a choice between nvidia and nouveau16:22
MartijnVdSSeeker`: "But thou must!"16:22
ali1234nouveau lasted about 10 minutes before it crashed16:22
ali1234and i mean full system lockup16:22
MartijnVdSali1234: bug #?16:22
ali1234and that was on the livecd too16:22
popeyi used it for some days  during 11.10 development16:22
popey(nouveau that is)16:23
popeywhilst nvidia/x was broken16:23
popeyactually, no that was 11.04 dev16:23
Laneywhich way is colder on a fridge dial?16:23
MartijnVdSLaney: away from the "off" position = colder16:23
Laneyi don't think it has an off position16:24
MartijnVdSLaney: (off position = light goes out)16:24
Laneyjust 0-516:24
popey5 maximum negativeness16:24
gordnouveau is 3d enabled by default these days, its not bad. though i still choose nvidia16:24
Laneymaximum coldings16:25
ali1234that's the problem16:25
ali1234nouveau 3d is enabled, even though it doesn't work properly yet16:25
ali1234kind of like how unity is enabled, even though it doesn't work properly yet16:25
Seeker`I've had a linux system of some sort permanently since 2004, and at least one of those systems has been a *buntu one since 2005, I've been using windows since about 1995 and I've now had some experience with osx. OSx is far better from the point of a naive user than either of the other two (but they have complete control of the hardware, which means it is understandable from hardware bugs perspective - not so much from purely soft16:26
Laneysomeone highlight me when the moanfest is over16:26
kvarleyHow can I install pulseaudio?16:26
MartijnVdSkvarley: it's installed by defaul;t16:26
kvarleyMartijnVdS: I'm using LUbuntu which shipped with Alsa16:27
ubuntuuk-planet[Jono Bacon] Ubuntu Community Q+A Videocast Today - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/19/ubuntu-community-qa-videocast-today/16:27
MartijnVdSkvarley: don't do that :)16:27
popeyLaney Laney Laney Laney Laney Laney Laney Laney Laney Laney16:27
MartijnVdSkvarley: also.. apt-get install pulseaudio should do it16:27
Laneyi think that today is a lovely typically autumn day16:27
Laneynice and crisp16:28
MartijnVdSand wet16:28
Seeker`mmmmm crisps16:28
Laney*also* i am about to have fish and chips for dinner16:28
popeymmmm chips16:29
Laneycurry or peas or none?16:29
bigcalmAdditional drivers gives me far too many options. What am I meant to be using for best results? http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/additional_drivers_11_10.png16:29
popeyah now..16:30
popeychips + gravy16:31
popeyor chips + curry + peas from the chinese restaurant16:31
Seeker`bigcalm: the [Recommended] ones, that were "Tested by Ubuntu developers", which have potentially usability breaking bugs?16:31
czajkowskiwith some saussages16:31
czajkowskiand um peas16:31
Laneyhmm gravy16:31
Laneydon't usually go for that one, but hmm i am rather tempted16:31
popeySeeker`: we also ship btrfs with zero warnings16:31
czajkowskiI <3 taco chips from supermacs back home16:31
czajkowskiminus the cheese16:31
popeywhich has the very real possibility of eating data16:31
* czajkowski does a lil dance 16:32
bigcalmSeeker`: I see16:32
ali1234"3D accelerated proprietary graphics driver for NVIDIA cards are required if you want to run Unity."16:32
Seeker`Unity3d surely16:32
ali1234no it is just called Unity16:32
ali1234Unity and Unity2d16:32
ali1234there is no Unity3d16:33
Seeker`ah, k16:33
Seeker`popey: :O ISEEWHATYOUDIDTHAR16:33
ali1234tbh it amazes me that the nvidia driver can run all kinds of complex graphics, but unity can't even manage to get it to render a texture rectangle16:34
Seeker`ali1234: so, yeah, thats even closer to "you must install this"16:34
Laneyliving opposite the chippy++16:42
bigcalmJust noticed the a friend of mine works for Eventbrite. Should mean that service will improve over time16:42
bigcalmWaist size++16:42
Laneysadly true16:43
bigcalmSince living closer to a chippy this has happened to me16:44
bigcalmWow, kvirc is still going?16:44
bigcalmI think that was the 1st client I used when I 1st used Linux16:45
Myrttithere's a few things in a relationship that I have to draw a line on16:46
Myrtti1) playing Wow16:46
popey2) cutting toenails at the dinner table16:46
Myrtti2) having a deepfryer16:46
Seeker`2 is understandable16:46
Seeker`1 isn't :P16:47
popeyI have never even seen WoW16:47
gordonjcphaving a deep fryer is totally understandable16:47
MyrttiSeeker`: 1) is from the knowledge that it's a huge timesink and I'd rather not get anyone, including myself, addicted to it16:47
gordonjcpMyrtti: without a deep fryer how are you supposed to make tempura or gyoza?16:47
davmor2gord: ryzom should be in oneiric now I forgot to tell you16:47
Seeker`Myrtti: it is an absolutely huge timesink16:47
bigcalmThe most I've seen of WoW is when it was used with "The Internet is for Porn"16:47
popeymmmmm tempura16:48
popeymight make some tempura prawns tonight16:48
Myrttigordonjcp: gyoza is easy to make without a deepfryer, tempure I'm not too keen on16:48
Seeker`Myrtti: it also gave me people to "socialise" with when anxiety basically kept me from leaving the house16:48
gorddavmor2, so it is :)16:48
MyrttiSeeker`: see, I can sink time and socialise in IRC...16:49
* Seeker` votes for tempura vegetables instead of prawns16:49
gordi have some friends who used to play wow, they had literal years of game time logged in, not they have been registered for x years, the have been logged in and actively playing for enough hours to constitute a year16:49
davmor2gord: you know you want to, you know you need to, you know you've got to ;)16:49
gordi basically didn't see them for like 3 years or something16:49
Seeker`gord: I think I'm up to something like 200 days logged in to the game now16:50
gordonjcpSeeker`: yasai tempura ftw16:50
gordi play a looot of video games, but the most i'v played something was like 250 hours total, can't even fathom that amount of time16:51
Seeker`but I will tend to log in first thing in the morning at weekends and stay logged until until I go to bed 18 hours later, even if i'm not actively playing for more than about 10 mins in a day16:51
gordonjcpMyrtti: much harder to do fried gyoza, although I agree it's not necessary for steamed16:51
gorddavmor2, tf2 install has all my bandwidth today :) - i'll give it a shot tomorrow though16:51
Seeker`gord: if you get in to raiding, it is easy to raid 3 times a week, 3 hours at a time16:52
MyrttiI don't like fried ones anyway :-)16:52
Myrttimmmm gyoza16:52
Seeker`hmm, not had gyoza in ages. Used to get duck gyoza from waitrose when I lived near one16:53
gordonjcpSeeker`: I work fairly near a SeeWoo16:54
Seeker`gord: for example, I'll probably log in to WoW when I get home, start raiding at 7, finish at 10, and then wander away from the computer but stay logged in until 11 or 12, so thats 5 hours /played in an evening16:55
gordSeeker`, see, when i play video games, i play from 7-10, and don't leave it running :P16:56
gordand then stop after a while because i want something new16:56
davmor2gord do you find yourself accidentally finishing games I've done it a few times now :)16:57
ali1234hey eve brought back ship spinning17:00
shaunoI think last time I played WoW, it was because my laptop was uncomfortably cold.  so I fired up wow while I made coffee, then shut it off when I got back.  made my lappy nice 'n cosy17:05
bigcalmMinecraft does the same thing17:06
penguin42shauno: That's the problem with all this talk of low power hardware17:06
shaunobigcalm, minecraft wouldn't get shut off once coffee was made tho ;)17:06
bigcalmshauno: it's a wonderful time sink :D17:07
popeyhome time \o/17:07
shaunoand this isn't low-powered hardware :/  the metal chassis just gets *really* cold when I've been out all day17:07
tonytigerDoes the pub for the meeting tomorrow definitely do food in the evenings?17:20
tonytigerThe website is unclear.17:20
gordonjcpwhere's the best place to get help with pulseaudio?17:26
AlanBellevening all17:34
jacobwevening AlanBell17:39
livingdaylightpopey, I copy pasted that script into gedit and saved it as ffscreencast.sh and moved it to /usr/local/bin17:44
livingdaylightbut alt+f2 and running ffscreencast.sh is coming back as error17:44
AlanBelllivingdaylight: is it executable?17:52
AlanBellsudo chmod +x /usr/local/bin/ffscreencast.sh17:52
bigcalmDoes the 1st line point to /bin/sh ?17:56
gordonjcplivingdaylight: what happens when you run it from a terminal?17:57
gordwow  the iphone4s screen is not bad http://vimeo.com/3060678518:04
gorderm camera not screen18:04
* MartijnVdS is going to buy a Galaxy Nexus as soon as it's released18:05
diploContract or buy outright MartijnVdS ?18:05
MartijnVdSdiplo: buy18:06
MartijnVdSdiplo: I just renewed my Voda contract without a phone (which is a lot cheaper than with a phone..)18:06
diploI'd like to as well, not sure i can find that sorta cash though :/18:06
MartijnVdSalso, $employer pays about half :)18:07
MartijnVdS(we get a "gadget budget" every few years)18:07
MartijnVdSBought an EeePC last time18:08
ali1234is it just me or is there no sound on jono's stream?18:11
MartijnVdSali1234: don't tell him!18:12
mfraz74ali1234: sound coming through ok here18:12
gordonjcplivingdaylight: see that output directory, does it actually exist?18:13
livingdaylightgordonjcp, which output directory?18:14
livingdaylightwas told to just save the script as something.sh and into /usr/local/bin18:14
smittixanyone know of a decent ssh client for iPhone/18:14
ali1234my machine is doing that thing again where it mutes the audio for no reason18:16
livingdaylightI'd be happy with gtk-recordmydesktop but its not capturing sound18:16
gordonjcplivingdaylight: the directory it's trying to put all those files into, at the bottom of your paste18:18
livingdaylightgordonjcp, what is it suggesting its looking for as directory?18:21
livingdaylight/home/videos exists18:21
livingdaylightits a big output and seems there are a lot of problems, no?18:21
gordonjcpthere is one major problem18:22
gordonjcplivingdaylight: read the last five lines18:23
livingdaylighti have, but still don't know what it expects18:24
mgdmit's not that you have a dir called videos and it wants Videos?18:24
livingdaylightthere should be a folder 2011/10/19/185822?18:24
mgdmthat needs to exist18:25
livingdaylightthat's just today's date18:26
livingdaylighteverytime I want to make a video I have to put in place a folder of today's date?18:26
gordonjcplivingdaylight: you could modify the script to either not require that, or make it for you18:26
gordonjcplivingdaylight: wait18:27
ubuntuuk-planet[Andrew] Presenting SlickPanel - http://whyareyoureadingthisurl.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/presenting-slickpanel/18:27
gordonjcplivingdaylight: are you seriously telling us that you just copied and pasted something off the Internet that someone told you to do, and ran it?18:27
skybinaryhello, what is the erm username and password for the ubuntu 11.10 Oneiric Ocelot live cd, i cannee get in :O18:27
livingdaylightgordonjcp, no, popey posted it earlier18:28
gordonjcplivingdaylight: and you trusted him?18:28
livingdaylighter, yea18:28
gordonjcplivingdaylight: and didn't even make an attempt to understand the script?18:29
gordonjcpmuahahaha, you're a braver man than I18:29
DJonesskybinary: As far as I'm aware, there shouldn't be a username/password for the live cd, on the ones I've tried, there hasn't been18:29
gordonjcplivingdaylight: in all seriousness, if someone like popey gives you it it's probably safe enough - but you should still make an effort to understand what the script does before running it18:30
skybinaryDJones, oh, weird huh!, well none of my user/pass comis' worked neither did 'ubuntu'/blank18:31
DJonesskybinary: On https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD it does say Sometimes a LiveCD might ask you for a user-name or password. Just leave these blank and press enter (or allow it to time-out).18:31
skybinaryits a good indication to get me to install win718:31
skybinaryDJones, tried that too18:31
skybinarylooks loverly too, but unusable18:32
livingdaylightgordonjcp fair enough. I assumed it would launch a desktop recorder but, no, didn't look at the detail18:32
DJonesskybinary: It could also be a a corrupt download, might be worth redownloading the iso & creating a new stick just in case18:32
skybinaryoh kay18:32
gordonjcplivingdaylight: at some point it will be trying to write stuff into a directory with the date in its path18:34
popeyevening all18:40
mfraz74good evening18:41
* popey notes the only thing wrong with the script that livingdaylight ran was that he didnt have the right version of ffmpeg18:45
jacobwmd5sum the iso18:46
smittixpopey: do you know of a decent free ssh client for iPhone?18:52
popeyi dont, i paid for mine18:52
smittixhow much was it?18:52
popeyi cant remember18:56
popeynot much18:57
popey7 quid18:57
mfraz74So iOS hasn't got a free app like ConnectBot on Android?18:58
MartijnVdSconnectbot == bomb, the19:00
ali1234well, jono completely dodged my question, twice19:01
DJonesHeh, how about this for  a halloween pumpkin design http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/313145_278153678884209_110298935669685_911178_215675802_n.jpg19:03
popeyali1234: missed it, what question?19:05
MartijnVdSDJones: EX-PUMPKIN-ATE19:06
popeyabout chasing users?19:06
ali1234popey: what is canonical doing to ensure that volunteer support channels grow to keep up with the 200M new users?19:06
rdj200M wow19:06
popeywhat was the answer?19:06
popeyrdj: thats a target19:06
ali1234popey: "well, you can all go out there and do advocacy"19:06
rdjmakes sense19:06
ali1234the first time19:06
popeyand the second?19:07
ali1234and the second time i asked he mumbled something about his team19:07
ali1234i didn't catch it but it sounded like "that's not what my team does"19:07
smittixhmm, vlc wont play video without the sound being out of sync19:07
rdjfunnily enough am listening to the latest Ubuntu UK podcast....19:07
ali1234i would have thought chasing new users was marketing's job19:07
popeyrdj: feedback welcome19:07
rdjgood stuff19:08
rdjI agree about enthusiasm waning19:08
rdjnot personally19:08
popeyrdj: including "popey, you're wrong", which ali1234 has said and we'll read out during the next show19:08
rdjhave been an Ubuntu user since Breezey Badger done some informal local advocacy19:09
popeyI had a _very_ long conversation with Jono on thursday. I think he realises that there are gaps in what the community team is doing19:09
popeyhe's very aware :D19:09
ali1234i wouldn't say gaps19:10
popeychasms? D19:10
AlanBellali1234: I think the issue was mentioning the 200m "target"19:10
ali1234i think it is more like a telegraph pole in a desert19:11
AlanBellso does jono19:11
ali1234the communiyt team seems fixated on advocacy19:11
ali1234and absolutely nothing else19:11
ali1234and that seems to trickle down to every level of the community19:11
ali1234i'll give a concrete example19:12
popeybrb, accountant here19:12
MartijnVdS(i.e. wife)19:12
ali1234there's no clear path from joining a loco to becoming a bug triager for example19:12
ali1234once you join a loco your options for advancement involve becoming loco leader, joining community council, irc council etc19:13
ali1234if you are technical, there doesn't seem much to do in a loco19:13
AlanBellthis is true, in this loco, so far19:13
ali1234so even though the technical side with bugs, support etc, is an open community19:14
ali1234and locos are open too19:14
ali1234they are very much separate19:14
MartijnVdSali1234: there's the drinking beer/helping people on irc part19:14
AlanBelltranslations do fit the loco model19:14
MartijnVdSali1234: (I consider myself quite technical)19:14
AlanBelland I do want to get an en_GB localised ISO done by the loco19:14
ali1234MartijnVdS: the drinking beer part is the problem19:14
MartijnVdSali1234: It's an efficient way of social bonding.19:15
ali1234social bonding doesn't get code written19:15
MartijnVdSali1234: no, but it does help spread knowledge19:15
ali1234not really19:15
AlanBellbeer is fine, and providing support over IRC and mailing list is good19:15
AlanBellit isn't a zero sum game19:16
AlanBellmore code does not equal less beer19:16
ali1234we can and do provide support on irc19:16
ali1234i don't do the mailing list stuff myself19:16
MartijnVdSAlanBell: More beer does equal less code usually though :)19:16
ali1234but that's my question really19:16
AlanBellthere are a lot of people here who are individual contributors in different ways19:16
ali1234i don't really consider myself a part of the ubuntu community19:16
ali1234my question is, why?19:17
MartijnVdSShould you?19:17
ali1234and what can canonical do to change that?19:17
MartijnVdS(do you feel like you should?)19:17
ali1234MartijnVdS: i don't even know19:17
AzelphurI think more social does equal more code actually19:17
AzelphurWhen everyone has a good collaboration spot, awesome stuff happens19:17
MartijnVdSI stopped being active as a contributor because everything grew too big and political19:17
MartijnVdSI help in here19:17
ali1234what i do know is you are going to need an awful lot more people manning the irc, mailing lists, asks ubuntu etc, when you add on that 199M new users19:17
MartijnVdSbut UDSes, -devel list, etc... not anymore19:17
MartijnVdS("Canonical always wins the argument" doesn't help there)19:18
ali1234but it seems like nobody at canonical is thinking about the long term19:18
MartijnVdS(not that I assume I'm always right, but I like to think I am sometimes)19:18
ali1234once you get 200M users, what are you going to do then?19:18
ali1234collapse under the weight?19:18
ali1234how can that be avoided?19:18
Azelphurali1234: when you add that many users, perhaps more services will evolve to take the load19:19
ali1234seems like a good way would be to encourage people who took the first step of join a loco19:19
Azelphureg brainstorm is much better at taking load than say IRC19:19
ali1234so how ca we do that?19:19
MartijnVdSAzelphur: But perhaps the IRC channels will collapse in flooding19:19
Azelphurthere could also be regional loco channels, eg ubuntu-uk-kent19:19
ali1234i look to the community manager for answers... he has none19:19
ali1234so now what?19:19
ali1234Azelphur: hoping that the problem will just fix itself isn't really the greatest strategy19:19
Azelphurali1234: lies, it's actually one of the greatest strategies19:19
Azelphurmost problems will solve themselves19:20
AlanBellali1234: the community manager didn't say the 200m users line19:20
ali1234AlanBell: but when asked how ubuntu can achieve 200M users, he had lots of ideas19:20
AlanBellwhich is why he is ducking questions that include it19:20
ali1234AlanBell: but there doesn't seem to be a plan for when it happens19:20
AzelphurI think brainstorm is quite capable of doing 200M19:21
ali1234i thought brainstorm was abandoned19:21
AzelphurStackoverflow/brainstorm model is very good19:21
Azelphurit was? slap someone in the face with a fish.19:21
Azelphurhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ doesn't look abandoned to me19:22
Azelphurthere again I can see looking at it that it's just for ideas19:22
Azelphurwe need a ubuntu style stackoverflow :P19:22
ali1234this isn't about technical solutions19:22
ali1234you can make a stackexchange where people can asks questions, fine19:23
Azelphurtada, support provided?19:23
ali1234my specific question is, how are you going to encourage more people to answer those questions19:23
AzelphurIf you really need to (I don't think you do, Microsoft seems to manage), you could do some kind of advertising revenue model19:23
Azelphurwhere you answer a question and you get a portion of the advertising revenue for that page19:24
AlanBellAzelphur: that is precisely what askubuntu.com is19:24
ali1234support for MS products is awful19:24
AzelphurAlanBell: great minds :D19:24
ali1234comunity support i mean19:24
AzelphurAlanBell: askubuntu is stackoverflow ubuntu? or you get a share of the advertising revenue19:25
AlanBellstackexchange for ubuntu questions19:25
Azelphurhehe, I knew there was one :)19:25
ali1234it seems like almost nobody really believes the 200M thing is possible19:26
Azelphurali1234: there's also the paid support contracts too19:26
ali1234i believe it!19:26
AlanBellso one thing I think they should do and I mentioned to sabdfl in the CC meeting yesterday was to define the use case of Ubuntu19:26
ali1234i think it is innevitable19:26
AzelphurI agree it's totally possible, I'm not stupid :)19:26
Azelphurali1234: I'd agree with that too, I don't know if Ubuntu will take off, but some form of Linux certainly will19:26
AlanBellI think the 200m can be done, but it was just stated with no followthrough or pre-planning19:27
Azelphurali1234: but I think the ultimate answer is that support ecosystems will evolve and diversify as the community gets bigger19:27
ali1234it all comes back to the same old point i keep making19:27
Azelphur(yay big words)19:27
ali1234we've seen it before with WUBI19:28
AlanBellso they need to define what Ubuntu is for, and what they expect the community to be19:28
ali1234it's supposed to be easy to use19:28
ali1234but it sucks, so the only people that use it are the people that don't understand it19:28
ali1234as a result, they can't get support when it breaks19:29
AlanBellis the community expected to be a kind of usergroup19:29
ali1234because anyone who understands bootloaders is using grub19:29
ali1234so let me put my question a different way19:29
AlanBellis the community expected to be small businesses with products and services for Ubuntu (like the partner community around various proprietary things)19:30
AlanBellor is the community expected to be individual hackers doing stuff for fun?19:30
ali1234well it doesn't seem to be the latter19:30
Azelphurit doesn't? :o19:30
ali1234it doesn't seem to be *expected* to be the latter19:31
AlanBellnot sure I mind that at all19:31
ali1234but my question is really rather simple19:31
Azelphuryea, lots of end users have broken opinions, but you can't fix stupid19:31
ali1234how are you going to encourage computer professionals to learn an operating system that isn't designed for their needs?19:31
Azelphurif you want free support, you need to be patient and understand that the only help your going to get is if/when someone has an answer, if you have money to burn the support contracts are that way -->19:32
AlanBellthat is the problem, the use-case for ubuntu19:32
AlanBellis it a home user operating system that comes on an OEM provided pre-install and has banshee and games to buy19:32
AlanBellor is it a small business operating system with lenses that connect to your business systems and does ldap and configuration management and suchlike19:33
ali1234you can't add 200M green users without also bringing on board some professionals to provide support, whether paid or free19:33
ali1234well, you can, but you end up with the microsoft situation where every windows machine has 800 viruses19:34
ali1234that was a direct result of adding users faster than you can provide support, in the early 200019:34
AzelphurWindows machines now days get infected not because of OS vulnerabilities, but because of end user stupidity19:34
AzelphurYou really can't fix stupid19:34
ali1234that was *always* the case19:35
ali1234and that is my point19:35
Azelphurali1234: not really, a while back you'd wander around with IE and get driveby'd, that's less likely now days19:35
ali1234if you even using IE it is your own fault19:35
Azelphur(20:34:45) Azelphur: You really can't fix stupid19:35
ali1234you can't fix stupid19:36
ali1234all you can do is provide more and better support19:36
ali1234so here we are back at the start. where is that support going to come from?19:36
AzelphurPC repair shops, same place Windows users get it from I guess19:36
Azelphurperhaps that's what we should do, promote PC shops supporting Ubuntu :)19:37
ali1234those places have always been a scam19:37
ali1234most of them don't have a clue19:37
ali1234the things i've been told in PC shops19:37
ali1234if that's the best we can do then Ubuntu doesn't have a chance19:37
ali1234it needs to be *better* then the competition19:37
AzelphurUbuntu certified repair shop? :)19:37
ali1234well that would be a start19:38
Azelphurtada incompetency fixed19:38
ali1234i mean it's better than the current plan19:38
Azelphurbesides that you could also have Ubuntu certified engineers but the qualification would need to be free19:39
ali1234it doesn't need to be free19:39
ali1234it just needs to be affordable19:39
Azelphurok, maybe that19:39
AzelphurI probably wouldn't do it if it wasn't free or very cheap19:39
jacobwi don't know any non-technical users who get technical support from independent businesses19:40
ali1234i wouldn't do it unless it was free19:40
ali1234but i don't need qualifications19:40
ali1234a lot of people would do it if it wasa bit cheaper, i suspect19:40
ali1234and if it had actually useful things on the curriculum19:40
AzelphurI'd only be interested in doing the test online for the fun of having the pretty sticker19:41
ali1234every linux cert i have ever looked at consists of questions that i have no idea the answer to, but which i could find in about 10 seconds with the man command19:41
ali1234that is not a useful cert19:41
jacobwhow would a free certification work?19:41
AzelphurI have this weird thing now days where people just sit down next to me and say "Your a really intelligent person" having never met them before xD19:41
Azelphurqualifications: un-needed, people just randomly assume I'm intelligent for no apparent reason19:42
AlanBellpersonally I don't think end user support is very interesting commercially19:42
AlanBellpeople don't want support contracts for their iPad19:42
ali1234AlanBell: you're probably right19:42
ali1234but it is still needed19:42
AlanBellwell they might, I don't really know19:42
Azelphurali1234: I think it's not, I think even if support was provided people wouldn't use it19:43
Azelphurpeople arn't interested in whether they have malware and if their machine is being used as a zombie or not19:43
jacobwi think 99.999% of end users are unsupported, end users being support outside of business environment just isn't a thing.19:43
Azelphuryou're lucky to even get interest in "My computers running slower than when I got it"19:43
ali1234Azelphur: you are correct. however they are interested when their machine won't boot after an update19:43
ali1234at the very least, they want to get their files back19:44
Azelphurali1234: yea, when that happens with windows, they sent it off to a repair shop :P19:44
Azelphuror call the local tech19:44
ali1234and what happens if they have ubuntu installed?19:44
ali1234they send it to the local PC shop, and the local PC shop says "wtf is this" then wipes it and installs windows19:44
AlanBellsomeone running a business doing something real like plumbing, car repair, estate agency etc. might well want support for a dozen Ubuntu desktops19:45
ali1234AlanBell: very much so19:45
Azelphurali1234: hense advocating it in pc shops19:45
ali1234AlanBell: they won't ask for that directly though19:45
ali1234they will look for someone to do "all of our IT" (which will include phones, website, etc etc)19:45
ali1234much of which won't be running on ubuntu19:46
AlanBellali1234: indeed, they will want an openERP server and a bunch of client PCs that "just work"19:46
ali1234they won't want openERP19:46
ali1234a business with only 10 machines probably won't even have a file server19:46
ali1234they might *need* openERP, but it will be up to the IT support guy to sell it to them19:46
AlanBellOpenERP does scale down to that level, my point is they want a server that does something19:46
ali1234a lot of businesses these days don't even have offices19:47
ali1234or they have an office with 1 guy in it19:47
ali1234and everyone else works from home19:47
AlanBellyup, and we host their openERP :)19:47
ali1234and if they want to share files... they email them19:48
AlanBellwe don't do email hosting, ick19:48
ali1234i can't think of anyone i know that has a CRM system and actually uses it19:48
ali1234they are too hard to use19:48
ali1234and nobody has time to learn them19:49
ali1234so everyone just has a million excel spreadsheets with addresses in them19:49
ali1234then they mail them around19:49
ali1234or they keep everything in their phone, with no backups19:50
AlanBellyes, that is the "before" state of some of our customers19:50
ali1234so how do you deal with the awkward employees who like things the way they are?19:51
ali1234you know, the ones who deliberately mess it up because they don't want to learn it19:51
ali1234and you know it, and they know it19:51
AlanBellinternal matter for the customer really19:51
ali1234i guess19:53
AlanBellchristel: I might drive tomorrow, want a lift?20:03
christelthat'd be grand if you do20:23
Azelphurit's a trap :o20:23
christelit usually is when AlanBell is involved!20:23
ubuntuuk-planet[iain woz ere] Running old Mono applications on Ubuntu 11.10 - http://orangesquash.org.uk/~laney/blog/posts/2011/10/mono-gotcha/20:27
* AlanBell has upgraded from Oneiric20:31
czajkowskihow wise was that eh20:32
AlanBellwell it wasn't on a customer server so it is OK20:32
AlanBellat least I don't think that ssh session was to a customer server20:33
bigcalmYou can never leave!20:36
* Laney clings to andylockran 20:37
* Azelphur handcuffs andylockran to the radiator20:37
AlanBellwell precise kind of works right now20:39
AlanBellcan't get 3d unity in virtualbox for some reason, but broadly speaking it is working20:39
Laneyit won't have changed massively yet20:43
* popey returns20:43
* popey reads scrollback20:43
=== airurando_ is now known as airurando
=== Monsterwizard is now known as floatingpointnum
bigcalm36mb to download Safari web browser. I hope it works in wine20:47
bigcalmBrowser loads but doesn't display pages20:50
bigcalmNow trying it via winetricks20:54
gordwhy you after safari in wine?20:54
gordfor fun?20:54
bigcalmLinux can be so much fune20:54
bigcalmBecause there isn't a native port of Safari?20:54
jacobwcross browser testing, from your browser :)20:54
bigcalmI'm a web dev. Also, I need to be able to test instantly, not just stuff that's been deployed20:55
jacobwi see20:55
bigcalmAnd this VM connection buggers off quite often. So have to work off line during that time as well20:55
bigcalmWhile cross browser sites are good, they don't meet all of my needs this time20:56
AlanBellis safari different to chromium in a significant way?20:56
bigcalmThanks any way :)20:56
bigcalmAlanBell: no idea, but a client is complaining that their site 'doesn't look right' in Safari20:56
floatingpointnumThere's a IRSSI for windows20:56
AlanBellbigcalm: missing font on a mac maybe?20:57
bigcalmAha, it installed and works :D20:57
bigcalmAlanBell: shouldn't be, apart from the title, the whole site uses Arial20:57
bigcalmI will need them to do a screenshot. Joy20:58
AlanBellis that available on mac?20:58
bigcalmfont-family: Arial, Sans-serif;20:58
AlanBellwont a mac use helvetica?20:58
* bigcalm shrugs20:59
bigcalmDo you have a mac?20:59
AlanBellbut Arial is a microsoft font, which we can't directly distribute21:00
popeybigcalm: i have a mac if that helps?21:01
popeyhappy to take screenshots for you21:01
bigcalmpopey: yes please :)21:01
mgdmMac's font rendering is a bit different to most others21:03
mgdmThere's an option in Safari on Windows to make it use the Mac-style stuff instead of the Cleartype you normally get21:03
mgdmit looks... 'odd'21:03
bigcalm"Your Crucial memory order is complete."21:03
* bigcalm bounces21:03
popeysafari on mac21:04
popeySteve Jobs staring out of the screen at me21:04
bigcalmIs he judging you?21:04
popeyI'm running OSX, so unlikely21:04
* mgdm is on OSX too, at present21:05
bigcalmThen we shall have to judge you both21:05
AzelphurFeed them to the crocodiles.21:06
* AlanBell has phone and tethered OLPC for IRC meeting tomorrow21:06
popeyooo, reminds me, will bring laptop and dongle21:07
* jacobw puts meeting in diary21:09
AlanBellshould I install solr-jetty or solr-tomcat?21:09
* AlanBell goes for jetty21:18
bigcalmI <3 get_iplayer21:40
bigcalmDarn, missed an episode of The Harpoon21:42
bigcalmOdd that not all programmes are available for download despite being listed on the website21:45
ubuntuuk-planet[Andy Loughran] Connecting to SMB shares from the command line in OS X - http://zrmt.com/2011/10/19/connecting-to-smb-shares-from-the-command-line-in-os-x/22:27
=== LjL is now known as lJl

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!