[09:33] <bambee> hi!
[10:18] <bulldog98_> yofel: oh, I don’t know if I can get make it today
[10:31] <yofel> bulldog98_: np, I just remembered you saying that you were working on it, and never heard back ^^
[10:32] <bulldog98_> yofel: wait, I’ve already got a package uploaded to my ppa
[10:35] <bulldog98_> could you open a sru report and where do I have to place the package first?
[10:58]  * yofel wonders why we don't have a bzr repos for rekonq 
[11:06] <yofel> bulldog98_: what are the changes in the copyright file about?
[11:06] <yofel> please document that in the changelog
[11:07] <yofel> ah, the copyright headers got updates
[11:08] <yofel> bulldog98_: ok, can you please fix the changelog and upload a package to ninjas that has precise as target? I'll do another check on that and then upload that to precise. After that we can do the SRU work
[11:12] <bulldog98_> yofel: ok
[11:17] <bulldog98_> yofel: done
[12:29] <schnelle> JontheEchidna: where to file muon bugs?
[12:29] <JontheEchidna> schnelle: bugs.kde.org is preferrable
[12:29] <schnelle> ok thanks
[12:31] <schnelle> JontheEchidna: well this is very easy to report. download google earth deb from google and try to install it. it will just stop at "installing dependencies"
[12:32] <schnelle> the rest i will report tu bugs.kde.org
[12:32] <schnelle> :)
[12:32] <JontheEchidna> schnelle: could you see if the qapt-worker process is running at the point the hang occurs?
[12:33] <schnelle> well i have it installed now. i closed window "installing dependencies", and run deb file again and then google earth was installed
[12:34] <schnelle> i will try on my test partition and will report back here
[12:35] <JontheEchidna> I'll be leaving in 15 or 20 minutes, but I'll be back later.
[12:36] <schnelle> ok. i'll report back later
[16:51] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: ping
[17:33] <yofel> JontheEchidna: I just got an overwrite error while upgrading, and muon-updater showed me: http://people.ubuntu.com/~yofel/pics/m-u.pngf
[17:33] <yofel> either at least *some* details are missing in that dialog, or that should be rephrased if you're expected to look at the details
[17:34] <JontheEchidna> The details should show up when you hit the Details button
[17:34] <JontheEchidna> But perhaps the wording of the dialog could be improved
[17:37] <JontheEchidna> Hmm, looks like we might have to live with "duplicate" listings for packages with a foreign-arch alternative. Non-library packages aren't given a Multi-Arch tag. (And shouldn't be given one)
[17:38] <JontheEchidna> kinda sucks, but otherwise foreign-only packages won't be displayed in MPM
[17:38] <JontheEchidna> e.g. Skype
[17:38] <yofel> so the only way to keep them apart is the name? (i.e. skype:i386)
[17:39] <JontheEchidna> yeah
[17:39] <JontheEchidna> that part already works
[17:39] <JontheEchidna> but currently I'm hiding non-multiarch foreign packages, and as a result the i386 skype package doesn't show up
[17:43] <JontheEchidna> (which is the only skype package available on a 64-bit computer)
[18:34] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: why do you not like low settings?
[18:35] <mgraesslin> how did you evaluate what is really "low profile"?
[18:36] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: if it eats less memory it is good
[18:37] <mgraesslin> ah yes and on how many systems did you measure that it needs less memory
[18:37] <mgraesslin> ?
[18:37] <mgraesslin> and since when is less memory the same as better?
[18:37] <apachelogger> 5 systems
[18:37] <yofel> it is "low fat" - not supreme betterness
[18:37] <apachelogger> 3 different processor architectures for the fun of it
[18:38] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: the users who have hardware with 512mib ram
[18:38] <mgraesslin> those should not use a modern system
[18:38] <mgraesslin> seriously we don't develop software to fit 512 MB if you get 4 GB for less than 20 €
[18:39] <apachelogger> yeah
[18:39] <apachelogger> of course all that crap needs to get into memory at some point
[18:39] <apachelogger> meaning disk IO
[18:39] <apachelogger> meanig you also need to buy SSD
[18:40] <apachelogger> having run 3.5 some weeks ago I get the feeling neither of us should use a "modern system" as we appear to spending twice as much time waiting for apps to appear
[18:40] <mgraesslin> my concern is mostly that such a package keeps the assumption that KDE is just bloat
[18:40] <mgraesslin> sand slow
[18:40] <mgraesslin> -s
[18:40] <mgraesslin> having a distri even confirming that is rather bad
[18:40] <mgraesslin> if I think about how much time I invested in improving the performance in KWin and the same what trueg is currently doing with Nepomuk
[18:41] <mgraesslin> and all the bugfixing work in Akonadi
[18:41] <apachelogger> yeah
[18:41] <apachelogger> I still do not use nepomuk or akonadi
[18:41] <apachelogger> because I don't use them
[18:42] <apachelogger> just like I do not use the 3000 krunner runners
[18:43] <yofel> mgraesslin: my highest respect to you and trueg. But akonadi_nepomuk_email_feeder sometimes hogging 1GiB RAM is *current reality* for us
[18:43] <apachelogger> there is nothing wrong with improving things, that still does not make them required for every system
[18:44] <mgraesslin> true, but what is the relationship between turning off Compositing AND Nepomuk
[18:44] <mgraesslin> for a system not older than 5 years there is NO reason to turn off compositing
[18:44] <yofel> my eeePC is certainly happier without compositing TBH
[18:44] <apachelogger> in particular the low settings package was created for my netbook, deactivating all the stuff that either does not work is not used by me in this particular envrionment
[18:45] <yofel> not because it has little memory, but because the GPU is crap
[18:45] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: yeah, tell that to intel :S
[18:45] <mgraesslin> at least the maintainers of the components could have been asked...
[18:45] <mgraesslin> yofel: you know that kwin turns off compositing if it is too slow?
[18:46] <apachelogger> if only people hadn't different perception of time
[18:46] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: so what would have been the point of asking the maintainers?
[18:46] <mgraesslin> first of all: that we are aware of it
[18:46] <yofel> mgraesslin: I know - but do I need to have it on while "barely running above the limit" ?
[18:47] <mgraesslin> yofel: yes because it improves the user experience
[18:47] <yofel> well - it's not like we install low fat by default
[18:47] <mgraesslin> it just gives a bad light on KDE
[18:47] <apachelogger> funny thing
[18:48] <mgraesslin> "they improved the compositor, but it is still so bad that Kubuntu has a package to disable it"
[18:48] <apachelogger> all the users I talk to say it is to slow with compsiting
[18:48] <apachelogger> interesting how feedback can be different
[18:48] <yofel> it is certainly faster with compositing on my T510, not on my eeePC
[18:48] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: there will always be crap like that
[18:49] <yofel> there I barely notice the difference. Except kwin doesn't idle around using 5-8% CPU all the time anymore
[18:49] <apachelogger> just like media always calls kubuntu a canonical product
[18:49] <mgraesslin> but a KDE friendly distro helping to spread this kind of FUD is really bad
[18:50] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: yeah, except is it not FUD
[18:50] <mgraesslin> I appreciate that you want to improve the experience for your users, but I think it was a bad move to offer such a package
[18:50] <apachelogger> if you want I can drop by your place and show you just exactly how royally plasma fcks me over on my netbook with compositing on
[18:50] <mgraesslin> a helpful article on userbase explaining what influences what would have been much better
[18:51] <mgraesslin> and I can tune the settings so that it will be fast
[18:51] <apachelogger> I guess we have to agree to disagree there
[18:52] <mgraesslin> I have never had any system where kwin was slow after I fine tuned the settings
[18:52] <apachelogger> because when one of my friend asks me why KDE is so slow and I point him at a page that goes "soo.... deactivate this and that, oh yeah and that is sorta broken so you might want to deactivate too" I usually want to drop dead from shame
[18:52] <mgraesslin> of course you should not write it like that
[18:52] <yofel> mgraesslin: not all of our users know what the "desktop effects" settings even are... and we aren't exacly aming at only geek users
[18:52] <apachelogger> no matter how you write it, this will be the message
[18:53] <yofel> geek folks can use fedora for all I care
[18:53] <apachelogger> by providing a package we prevent users from looking into the ugly grimace that is software
[18:53] <mgraesslin> no as it is quite simple: if your hardware is older than three years, deactivating OpenGL 2 shaders might improve your experience
[18:54] <mgraesslin> and especially for the non-geek users we should shine and not disable compositing
[18:54] <apachelogger> geeks is the entirly wrong word
[18:54] <apachelogger> s/geeks/geek/
[18:54] <kubotu> apachelogger meant: "geek is the entirly wrong word"
[18:54] <apachelogger> I propose using the term "person who does not care why it does not work"
[18:55] <claydoh> nepomuk and akonadi and oxygen settings..........
[18:55] <claydoh> these are what slow my old hardware
[18:55] <yofel> mgraesslin: ah, while at it: could you make it so when I check the "enable effects at startup" checkbox in the settings and have effects currently of I *don't* get a notification about all the effects that "couldn't be enabled" ?
[18:55] <mgraesslin> oxygen setting is another thing: it is only for certain hardware bad
[18:55] <mgraesslin> yofel: report a bug, I cannot remember stuff like that
[18:56] <yofel> will do
[18:56]  * apachelogger has seen the oxygen code and went whoop
[18:56]  * apachelogger has seen it while investigating an issue in kmix code that made him go whoop
[18:56]  * apachelogger as a result of that got drunk
[18:57] <yofel> logic consequence *nod*
[18:57] <apachelogger> if we do not accept that our software is imperfect then we will not be able to make it better for the user
[18:57] <mgraesslin> ever seen http://simplest-image-hosting.net/png-0-plasma-desktopbt2661
[18:57] <mgraesslin> we can adjust the settings for everything in one place and even dynamically based on hardware
[18:57] <mgraesslin> we just have to make use of it
[18:58] <apachelogger> oh right, that setting there is also awesome
[18:58] <mgraesslin> what you did is working around it
[18:58] <bulldog98_> mgraesslin: what does high cpu means there?
[18:58] <apachelogger> all of my friends that would probably qualify as junior geek go "what exactly does it change"
[18:58] <apachelogger> and I go, well it does something to the style
[18:58] <mgraesslin> yes naming is bad
[18:58] <claydoh> I don't care about the code :) but the slowness subject does come up regularly among the regular users in the kubuntuforums, and there are so very many places that seem to be possible causes for slowness
[18:58] <mgraesslin> yes it is at the wrong place
[18:58] <claydoh> but I agree with both of you at lest a little
[18:58] <mgraesslin> and yes not everything makes use of it
[18:58] <yofel> mgraesslin: it says *nothing* about what it does - it doesn't even have a tooltip
[18:58] <mgraesslin> but that is the way to go
[18:58]  * yofel doesn't know what it does either
[18:59] <mgraesslin> yofel: it *should* influence the animations in Plasma and Oxygen
[18:59] <mgraesslin> also some in KWin
[18:59] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: even with it oxygen will be super expensive
[18:59] <apachelogger> or last I saw the code it registered event filters and then discarded the calls inside the filter
[19:00] <mgraesslin> but that's the way to go and that's what I plan to do for powersaving: making the effects deactivate themselves based on this setting and let powerdevil change it
[19:00] <apachelogger> so instead of cutting the expense entirely super low settings will only cut it in half
[19:00] <mgraesslin> apachelogger: then report bugs, fix the code but don't work around it
[19:00] <claydoh> low-fat is a good thing, but it also may make  kde look bad 
[19:00] <mgraesslin> "uh this code is ugly, let's use a different style"
[19:00] <apachelogger> it aint ugly
[19:00] <apachelogger> it is imperformant
[19:00] <mgraesslin> just a pitty that all styles are hacky code
[19:01] <mgraesslin> than talk to the maintainers, hugo is extremely open
[19:01] <claydoh> and for my laptop, 4gb ram is over 50$, I don't have that money
[19:01] <mgraesslin> much better than just disabling some stuff
[19:01] <apachelogger> yeah
[19:01] <apachelogger> and then we all suffer from burn out and all of floss is dead
[19:01] <yofel> like Scott
[19:02] <apachelogger> certainly it would be the best way to do things
[19:02] <apachelogger> and I at least think that I do it plenty of times
[19:02] <mgraesslin> how should the developers know that Kubuntu devs are not satisfied with the offerings if you don't tell them?
[19:02] <apachelogger> but also often a solution is needed right now
[19:02] <mgraesslin> I'm just very disappointed that I was not informed concerning the kwin part
[19:03] <apachelogger> mgraesslin: acknowledged, I however must ask you to believe me that we ask maintainers a lot about their opinions
[19:03] <mgraesslin> and I must say that this is something where what Kubuntu devs tell about being upstream friendly does not match the reality
[19:04] <apachelogger> ok
[19:04] <apachelogger> that now
[19:04] <apachelogger> really hurt
[19:05] <mgraesslin> sorry but reading the reviews as an upstream for Kubuntu and reading all the repeated fud about bloated KDE also hurts
[19:06] <mgraesslin> and quite clearly: if there is a need for "low fat" it should be upstream and not downstream
[19:07] <yofel> mgraesslin: if our users would've said that low fat is crap and completely useless I would've agreed, but as they say the opposite, it's a POV matter
[19:08] <yofel> mgraesslin: I need to apologize about kwin on my eeePC though - it's better in 4.7.2 than it was back when I disabled compositing
[19:08] <mgraesslin> for me as an upstream who spent weeks on improving the performance, it's a slap in the face
[19:09] <yofel> mgraesslin: you might pass that on to the kdepim/akonadi folks - you were pretty much only colleteral damage from us being tired here I believe
[19:11] <mgraesslin> and we are back to it should have been communicated
[19:11] <mgraesslin> anyway, I'm off for today
[19:12] <BarkingFish> I'm sorry to say it mgraesslin - but it's also a slap in the face for users too. The improvements you make at one end, don't necessarily work on everyone's machines the same way.  I communicated problems to one of KDE's staff, and got told "write a list of how we can make it better then, if you're not happy with it."
[19:29] <yofel> ARGH... nepomukinedexer is re-indexing my PDF's for the x-th time without a reason whatsoever
[19:30]  * yofel makes a snapshot for kde-runtime 4.7 git
[19:43] <BarkingFish> yofel, while you're on the subject of KDE 4.7, a couple of questions I've asked about the network manager plasmoid suggest the version it says I have in apper, and what is actually installed, are different.  How do I find out what was used to build what is there now?
[19:44] <BarkingFish> Apparently, from version 0.9, when you open the settings and click other, there should be an identification string- something like nm09-20110630 or the like.  Apper says it's version 0.9, but that ident string is missing.
[19:47] <yofel> !info plasma-widget-networkmanagement
[19:47] <yofel> that's the full version, 0.9 from nm09 git branch, snapshotted on 10-th june 2011, hash 0c83d8 + patches
[19:48] <BarkingFish> yeah.  The guys in #kde tell me that if that ident string isn't there, it's still nm0.8 - and I know from what's there, that it isn't.
[20:01] <yofel> BarkingFish: the NM widget in Project Neon has that ident string. So I guess the archive snapshot is just too old
[20:02] <BarkingFish> ah, ok.  I might just check neon's PPA and see if that widget is available
[20:02] <yofel> BarkingFish: neon builds are incompatible with the archive packages. So installing the widget from there needs a full neon session to use it 
[20:04] <BarkingFish> dang.  I wouldn't be prepared to send the whole of my KDE to an unstable setup
[20:04] <BarkingFish> one piece, which I could undo, sure. But not the whole thing
[20:11] <yofel> BarkingFish: note: neon doesn't *replace* your stable packages - but to use the widget you would still need to run the full session
[20:11] <yofel> !neon | BarkingFish
[20:47] <Quintasan> yofel: ping
[20:48] <yofel> pong
[20:48] <Quintasan> yofel: I just read the whole stuff with mgraesslin
[20:49] <Quintasan> IMO you approched him in the wrong way
[20:49] <Quintasan> KWin is behaving a lot better than it used to, it's still not as fast as it should be but hell
[20:49] <Quintasan> It's better
[20:49] <yofel> might be, maybe I should've just kept quiet considering I had no part in creating low-fat
[20:50] <yofel> well, I did say in the end that it got better
[20:50] <Quintasan> kudos ofc go to mgraesslin for hard work on KWin but I don't like how he brings stuff like Nepomuk and that ${PERSON} is working on it
[20:50] <Quintasan> If someone works for it then we should have some fucking results
[20:51] <Quintasan> But nope
[20:51] <Quintasan> Searching with krunner doesnt work or works randomly
[20:51] <Quintasan> No matter how many directories I tell it to index it doesn't index everything
[20:51] <claydoh> kwin is better, but what about akionadi/nepomuk which is what bogs me down
[20:51] <yofel> as I said, martin ended up being colleteral damage in this whole mess
[20:52] <claydoh> but his thoughts on low-fat may be true, and I added a little to that by advertising it
[20:52] <Quintasan> Yup, exactly. I downloaded two new pdfs today
[20:52] <Quintasan> Guess what, "arcane" in KRunner doesnt find it
[20:53] <Quintasan> I have what I think is high-end PC and maximizing Dolphin from tray shows me a gray window for 1,5 second and then it shows itself
[20:54] <Quintasan> claydoh: I wonder if mgraesslin actually uses Kubuntu
[20:55] <BarkingFish> Well kmail is enough for me now. Having it running with akonadi (which is about as stable as charles manson) and nepomuk, which is just barking, is ruining my system.  I'm gonna dump kmail and kontact, then I can sink akonadi and switch nepomuk off.
[20:55]  * Quintasan also wonders how upstream knows BETTER what feedback distro maintainers get
[20:55] <claydoh> probably not, who in the dev world does, outside of kubuntu devs?
[20:55] <yofel> Quintasan: not sure, afaik he used debian-kde
[20:56] <BarkingFish> nobody, which is why they expect it to work on kubuntu but then get pissy when we tell them it doesn't?
[20:56] <yofel> probably
[20:56] <Quintasan> yofel: And up until sometime ago it was us who had shitty packages (and we were basing on Debian)
[20:56] <yofel> ivan at least said on identi.ca that he might give it a try again
[20:56] <yofel> Quintasan: true
[20:57] <Quintasan> BarkingFish: My point exactly, they don't use it and keep telling us it should work because ${EFFORT}
[20:57] <Quintasan> I still can't see any progress on nepomuk
[20:57] <claydoh> as to akonadi/kmail2/nepomuk there are plenty of things happening on other KDE distro forums, so it isn't just us
[20:57] <Quintasan> Oh, apparently Nepomuk is idle now
[20:57] <Quintasan> I downloaded new file
[20:57] <Quintasan> and it's idle
[20:58] <claydoh> I may swith email clients, sad as I have used Kontact almost exclusively soince KDE 2.something!
[20:58]  * Quintasan isn't a long-time KDE user
[20:59] <Quintasan> I have been using it in 3.* days
[20:59] <Quintasan> I stopped bothering since Akonadi magic
[20:59] <yofel> me neither, I used it in 3.5 a while, then got annoyed of gnome around 2.28 again and went back to KDE
[20:59] <Quintasan> 3 seconds to start Dolphin
[21:00] <yofel> but I fully understand Scott being tired out - I'm not far away
[21:00] <Quintasan> 8gb of memory, i5 cpu and a friggin new GPU
[21:02] <yofel> ah well, it nepomuk doesn't give me any results either here. With a 3.7GiB virtuoso database
[21:04] <yofel> unbelievable... nepomuk can't find my PDF's  - locate needs less than a second to find them
[21:04] <yofel> *headdesk*
[21:06] <Quintasan> I wonder where is my progress then
[21:06] <Quintasan> What's more, there are no clear instructions on how to debug this shit
[21:06] <Quintasan> I would send them any log they would like to have if I only had a way to debug it
[21:11] <apachelogger> log log log
[21:11] <apachelogger> Quintasan: massif log
[21:11] <apachelogger> callgrind log
[21:11] <apachelogger> cachegrind log
[21:11] <apachelogger> and strace
[21:11] <Quintasan> apachelogger: HOW?
[21:11] <apachelogger> preferrably with forks and vforks
[21:12] <Quintasan> it's nepomuk
[21:12] <apachelogger> and I can tell you *exactly* why it takes 3 seconds for dolphin
[21:12] <apachelogger> Quintasan: yeah, I have no idea
[21:12]  * apachelogger doesnt care much about nepomuk TBH
[21:12] <Quintasan> I have no idea what I'm supposed to call to get any USEFUL log
[21:12] <Quintasan> apachelogger: Why it takes 3seconds?
[21:12] <apachelogger> yes
[21:12] <apachelogger> I know that gwenview takes ages for 2 reasons
[21:12] <apachelogger> a) the good UI requires a bazillion fat block ctors
[21:13]  * yofel goes neon
[21:13] <apachelogger> (actually it does not, it is just written in a way that it requires them)
[21:13] <apachelogger> b) it opens files from the ctors rather than async, thus blocking the constructon even more
[21:13] <apachelogger> that is if I recall things correctly
[21:13] <yofel> WOW - you can *disable* nepomuk email indexing in 4.8 - progress
[21:13] <BarkingFish> Sorry about that.  Roll on November 24th :)
[21:14] <apachelogger> agateau: ^ you might wanna look into desyncronizing ctors
[21:14] <apachelogger> on 3.5 gwenview took <1 sec to start now it takes at least 2 here
[21:14] <apachelogger> also gwenview uses some expensive KDE classes
[21:14] <apachelogger> like the breadcrumb bar or something
[21:18] <Quintasan> apachelogger: One question, if they are SO expensive, why bother in first place?
[21:32] <BarkingFish> I think i'm gonna give up for the night.  The wifi signal round here is crud, owing to it raining like fury outside I'd imagine.  We also have a thunderstorm on the way. I'll catch you guys tomorrow night. See ya.
[22:52] <apachelogger> Quintasan: they look good, I dunno
[22:52] <apachelogger> I did not look into why they are so expensive
[23:11] <bulldog98> gn