/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/23/#ubuntustudio-devel.txt

craigs63This XFCE reminds me a little of the later Amiga desktop look...02:45
=== micahg_ is now known as micahg
holsteini missed some action i see03:21
stochastichey holstein how are you03:22
holsteinstochastic: YO03:23
holsteinim well03:23
holsteinand you?03:23
stochasticgood holstein, I just had a friend stop by so I'll talk in a bit03:30
stochasticScottL, I've removed ubuntustudio-dev from the testers group in Launchpad now.17:45
stochasticI had not realized I was still owner of that group, if you'd like to take over ownership just let me know17:46
shnatseloh btw, I've tried to propose my packages for inclusion in Debian, but I get "failed to connect to <something>" error, I assume my current GPRS connection is too crappy. I'll try again as soon as I get normal internet back.17:48
stochasticshnatsel, maybe you can enlighten me on the current state of things17:49
ScottLstochastic,  thank you for that, i'll turn around and add the -testers team to the -dev, if that is okay17:49
stochastichey ScottL 17:49
ScottLstochastic, i'm not sure about the ownership of the -testers team at this moment17:49
stochasticdo you need me to post any update on ubuntustudio.org about the newest release (or is there a new 11.10 release of ubuntustudio, I recall an e-mail mid-dev cycle about stopping releases)17:50
ScottLshnatsel, you can also send an email manually to the debian multimedia team mailing list for th ITP17:50
ScottLstochastic, that's a funny position, because we did make the release but it isn't really "finished"17:50
stochastic???17:50
ScottLi think that email was generated by cory who has been a stauch support of dropping releases and going the ppa route for some time17:50
ScottLstochastic, the 11.10 release is quite stable and function, just not pretty17:51
ScottLwe had some issues completing the xfce transition17:51
stochasticokay17:51
shnatselmy friend installed it and said it's not usable...17:51
ScottLwe have changes in bzr but they never got pushed to the main repos17:51
shnatselah, that's a pity17:51
* stochastic is getting used to the new ubiquity interface right now17:52
ScottLshnatsel, i installed it too but found it usable,  i would like to know which parts he has trouble with so we can research it17:52
shnatselScottL: ok, I'll ask him17:52
ScottLthis reminds me, micahg , we were scheduled to talk about permissions to the repositories?17:53
micahgScottL: yeah, I was about to have lunch, how about 1 hr from now?17:53
ScottLabsolutely, i'm home all day, just piddling around with stuff17:53
ScottLstochastic, part of the problem during the last few cycles was that we didn't have permission to the repos so some we suffered some stagnation there17:54
ScottLother parts are normal attrition that projects see17:54
stochasticScottL, since I've been blind to the development over the last year (maybe two) can you give me a brief 'state of things' rundown (four sentences)?  Is stability of RT kernel a worry, interface (xfce), etc...?17:54
ScottLand we did get a slow start and weren't very focused during the last cycle in particular17:54
ScottLokay, can do that...17:54
ScottL1.  probably not using -rt anymore, trying to get -lowlatency into repos because it can be built from ubuntu kernel and adjusting irq priorities can be done with all kernel versions from 2.6.3917:56
ScottL2. xfce transition needs work and tweaking still, probably need to just use an existing theme that doesn't require maintenance from us at this point17:56
ScottL3. we are using jack2 now, which now has "-rt privileges" and the user needs to be in the 'audio' group17:57
stochasticyay jack2!!!17:58
knomeScottL, if greybird isn't totally bad-looking in your opinion, it's a good choice because it's the only xfce theme that supports gtk3 at least somewhat, and more support will come during the pangolin cycle17:58
ScottL4. this cycle, shnatsel and i are working towards dropping the alternate image and making a live dvd image17:58
shnatselknome: sounds great17:58
knomemmh :)17:58
ScottL5. there is a good plan to update the website and documentation17:58
ScottLknome, as i mentioned, i think greybird is very nice in terms of being clean, not confusing, but still aesthetically pleasing17:59
knomeyeah17:59
knomethat's the idea in greybird18:00
ScottLknome, holstein and i were talking, our opinion is "just get it done", so if we can't find anything better at this point, we go with greybird18:00
ScottLwe are tired of plucking around and not getting things done...really, really tired and frustrated18:00
knomeScottL, yeah. even if you want to do something else, you really should be in contact with the shimmer team18:00
knomeScottL, which i'm leading too, btw ;)18:01
ScottLknome, cool :)  we'll see, if we get greybird in there and get other things done as well, maybe we'll explore that, maybe next cycle if not18:01
knomeyeah.18:01
ScottLwe have a lot for this cycle, but i think it's doable, but i really want to try to do what we did before...say we are going to do everything, and then people get overwhelmed and nothing gets done18:02
knomegreybird will most probably (like 99.9999% possibility) be the default for xubuntu 12.04, and we're really trying to make it as stable as possible, even with gtk318:02
stochasticwould it be a good idea to put a new update on the ubuntustudio.org site that describes the latest 'release' as an optional release (or transitional release)?18:02
knomei see it's mostly about maintaining and fixing little bits in xubuntu in 12.04 :)18:02
ScottLstochastic, are you okay with what you have heard so far?18:02
stochasticsound good ScottL 18:02
stochasticI suggest the web update merely to keep all users in the loop and not appear to be a dead project18:03
ScottLstochastic,  the two main things holstein and i want to focus on are the -lowlatency kernel and the website18:04
ScottL(followed by a close third of live dvd for me and shnatsel) ;)18:04
stochasticcool18:04
ScottLstochastic, i'm going to uds this year (was sponsored surprisngly) and i'm going to push the -lowlatency kernel18:04
knomeScottL, i'll push the first commit to LP soonish so the IS can get through it, and maybe set it to the staging site too18:04
ScottLi still don't know _who_ will make it happen as far as the repos go18:04
ScottLi can build it but i don't know the procedure or process for getting it in (and i don't want to go through REVU)18:05
ScottLknome, do i need to do anything further for the -website team for the branch or code?18:05
knomeScottL, i don't think so18:05
ScottLknome, also, holstein and i will be adding content to the development site18:05
knomeyeah, np18:05
knomethat won't be automatically copied to the staging site, but it's easy enough to do manually18:06
ScottLstochastic, but that is good thinking though about not appearing like a dead website18:06
ScottLstochastic, i've been fighting with chris jones to get timely and correct access to the current website to update it18:06
ScottLfeel free to update it :)18:06
ScottLng keeps sending emails but they are using the wrong key (one time my mistake, once his) or it hasn't worked :/18:07
knomeScottL, btw, i might be taking a week (or so) off from FOSS starting from next week, but ending before UDS in any case18:07
knomeerr, before UDS ends :P18:07
ScottLknome, no problem, that might give holstein and i time to work on the site :)18:07
knomejust mentioning it now so it doesn't come as a complete surprise if i decide to do that :)18:08
knomeyeah18:08
ScottLlol, knome, that's a good point ;)18:08
ScottLgiven the history of people dropping the website i might have become quite upset and distraught :-)18:08
stochasticScottL, if you could write up a QUICK press release/note (no more than a single paragraph) about the latest state of 11.10 I'll gladly post it.  I just don't want to write it as I'm mostly blind to the state of things.18:08
knomehehe18:09
ScottLstochastic, would an ETA of this afternoon be okay with you for that?18:09
stochastictake as long as is required ScottL 18:09
knomewhere is astraljava?18:11
stochastichey knome,  First, hi I'm Eric nice to meet you.  Second, the new site is nice, I see it's wordpress rather than drupal - I was thinking drupal would be an easier drop-in replacement but I doubt at this stage it'd be feasible to switch.18:14
jussistochastic: dont start knome on drupal...18:14
jussi:P18:14
stochastic:-)18:14
stochastichey jussi18:14
jussiheya stochastic, been a while...18:15
stochasticyeah, I just left one of my two jobs jussi so I'm back to a 40hr work week instead of the 70hr one I was on for the last year18:15
knomestochastic, we had to rewrite the site (theme) completely anyway, so staying on drupal didn't have any other pluses than keeping the old content intact - which isn't much18:15
knomestochastic, as jussi said, better not start on drupal with me ;)18:16
* ScottL was snacking for lunch18:16
ScottLstochastic, thank you18:16
knomestochastic, nice to see you too though :)18:16
knomestochastic, bon appetit18:16
knomeerr, ScottL 18:16
stochasticknome, I trust the decision was made wisely, I'm just trying to get up to speed18:17
knomestochastic, heh, yeah, np :)18:17
ScottLstochastic, i understand that wordpress was verboten at one point, but many of the ubuntu sites are now wordpress sites18:17
stochasticknome, the main plus I considered was that all the old access permissions/security/etc... would remain in place.18:17
knomewordpress is actually much much more easy to manage than drupal, really18:17
stochasticokay18:18
stochasticI've yet to learn that system18:18
knomestochastic, yeah, that too, but adding access to people in wordpress is really easy too18:18
knomestochastic, i have some (bad) experiences with drupal in the 5/6 days, but lately, almost every commercial web project i've done has been on wordpress, and thus i'm very familiar with it18:19
stochasticcool18:19
knomeprobably the biggest reason to use wordpress18:19
stochasticso the timeframe for this switchover would be...18:19
knomeplus, it has gotten better in CMS-style things too18:19
knomeif everything goes as expected, i think something like a month (max) would be a realistic timeframe18:20
* stochastic looks forward to the facelift18:20
knomewe're getting the theme ready for canonical review really soon18:20
knomestochastic, http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/wordpress/18:20
knomethat's what we have now, and it's all already under wordpress18:20
stochasticyeah, scott had given me the link earlier18:21
ScottLstochastic, we have an rt ticket to get the site staged and then we have the review18:21
knomeyup18:21
knomeScottL, actually, the review comes first, after that, the staging site ;)18:21
stochasticI notice the current beta site doesn't have any of the social media functions that had been brainstormed in the early stages of the discussion...18:21
knomewe can include social media18:21
knomejust tell me what you want to have18:21
ScottLknome, sorry if that upsets you, but i did share that link with stochastic as he was pretty involved previously with the website and wanted his (much more informed) opinion18:21
knomeyeah, no problem :)18:22
knomejust made sure he had seen it18:22
stochasticScottL, that website planning wiki page  you had going, is that still kicking around/being used?18:23
knomeone note about social stuff btw18:25
knomeif we add any plugins, they must be reviewed and approved by canonical18:25
knomeso that will mean it takes more time18:25
stochasticyeah that was an earlier concern about it too18:26
ScottLstochastic, not directly as it probably needs to be cleaned up significantly and refocused18:26
* stochastic browses the wiki again & refreshes memory about monthly meetings etc..18:26
stochasticScottL, do you have the link handy?18:27
* knome takes a shower18:28
knomedon't want wife to pass out of the smell when she comes home18:28
stochasticScottL, knome https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp18:32
ScottLstochastic, yes, that is it, i think there is a blueprint as well18:34
ScottLhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/update-ubuntustudio-website18:35
ScottLi think it links to that wiki page as well18:35
stochasticlooks like a lot of people have done some significant work on this web revamp but seems like it's been disjointed18:35
stochasticknome I'd love to know if you need a hand with any of it18:36
stochasticScottL, the http://www.myhaiku.org/ site, has that contributor vanished?18:37
knomestochastic, after the initial commit to the LP repository, there is little what you can do18:37
knomestochastic, after that, i've no problems in cooperating or others contributing18:38
stochasticknome, I see on the blueprint that there are some TODO items that I'd be happy to help with18:39
ScottLstochastic, i believe he moved to japan on business and is quite overwhelmed with that18:39
ScottLstochastic, there was another who just vanished without any word18:40
ScottLgoing upstairs a bit, be back in fifteen or twenty minutes18:40
stochasticknome, the creation of content and new pages is marked for ScottL and holstein to tackle, the peer review doesn't have any owner/driver yet, can I help with either of those steps?18:42
knomestochastic, give me your email and full name, and i'll create you an account on the current site and you can start with the reviewing now :)18:43
stochasticknome, so now that I have access, what sort of review are you looking for?18:46
knomeyou'd be better asking from ScottL and holstein 18:47
stochasticaesthetic? logistic? security?18:47
knomecontent mostly, i think18:47
knomeand aesthetic too, in the sense of how elements inside the content should be arranged18:47
knomewith that, you need to contact me since not all of the css for the content stuff is in place yet18:48
stochasticcool, well I'm about to get out the door with some errands I need to do today, but this can be my fodder to look through in the coming days18:49
knomeyup :)18:55
knomethanks for helping out18:55
knomebbl ->19:01
ScottLstochastic, for now we have discussed including the following for the website:19:02
ScottL1. news/accouncement page19:02
ScottL2. download page19:02
ScottL3. links to tutorials/help (presumably help.ubuntu.com)19:03
ScottL4. link to "contribute to studio" (wiki.ubuntu.com page)19:03
ScottL 19:03
ScottLwe had considered having the website show the help.ubuntu.com pages19:04
ScottLwe had considered social media19:04
ScottLbut we currently have simplified our scope to ensure that it gets done, provides a minimal of functionality, and looks good19:05
ScottLi do not think that neither holstein or i have time to invest in more than that at this point19:06
ScottLat least until other times are resolved19:07
ScottL"resolved/comleted"19:07
micahghi ScottL, is now good?19:16
ScottLmicahg, absolutely!19:21
micahgScottL: so, the requirements are fairly simple, 6 months sustained contribution and demonstrated packaging knowledge for the set being requested19:21
ScottLmicahg, i strongly suggest that i have the former, i have less explicit faith in the later19:23
ScottLalthough i would suggest that i do have experience both in packaging and our package set19:23
ScottLthe experience is both with audio packages and studio packages19:24
ScottLhoweve, i would expect to make mistakes, discover them, and fix them19:24
ScottLs/howeve/however19:24
micahgScottL: indeed :), well, looking at your uploads, you have 10 from 11/2009 - 04/2011, mostly with regards to ubuntustudio specific packages (meta, default-settings, look), there's only one package that you modified from Debian and that was back in 2010 for an SRU to lucid19:26
micahgsome of the ubuntustudio packages are in other packagesets as well, so one has to be careful not to break other derivatives19:26
micahgthis is especially important closer to release19:27
ScottLhmmm, i'm surprised that some of the studio packages are in other packagesets19:28
micahgScottL: right, so we all make mistakes, the key is to learn from them and try not to make the same mistakes twice19:29
ScottLaye ;)19:29
ScottLthat is a mantra i espouse at work as engineering/detailing supervisor as well ;)19:29
ScottLdoes the studio packageset include non studio packages, i.e. mainstream audio packages?19:31
micahgScottL: I would suggest taking this cycle to get some sponsored uploads in various components of the ubuntustudio package set, one you feel comfortable that you'd be willing to upload w/out a sponsor (confident there are no mistakes, yes there might be, but you don't know about them) or someone else suggests that you've reached that point19:31
micahgScottL: here is the packageset list: http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/oneiric/ubuntustudio19:31
micahgsince ubuntustudio switched to xfce, there's a lot of overlap w/xubuntu19:32
ScottLmicahg, and to find a sponsor i would need to request it in #ubuntu-motu as needed, correct?19:34
micahgScottL: you can get a list of stuff that needs merging/syncing from Debian for the ubuntustudio packageset here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+localpackagediffs, just select the packageset you want19:34
micahgScottL: you can prepare a bug and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors or prepare a branch to merge into lp:ubuntu/foo (unless there's another Vcs-Bzr for the package)19:35
ScottLmicahg, okay :)19:35
micahgif it's urgent you can ask for a sponsor in #ubuntu-motu or ping the patch pilot in #ubuntu-devel (listed in /topic there)19:36
ScottLi don't want to impugn anyone's work or ethic, however i need to ask, are ubuntu-sponsors responsive?19:36
micahgthe queue is getting under control again19:36
ScottLah, you have more or less answered my question19:36
micahgaround release time I think it was hard, but there are ~8-10 pilots scheduled per week that tackle the queue as well as other people who will sponsor stuff from there19:37
ScottLi have seen danial t chen mention the "patch pilot" before, i will read more about this19:37
micahgScottL: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews19:37
ScottLmicahg, i would ask about germinating and updating the meta packages19:37
ScottLwe _will_ need to do this, most likely many times this cycle19:38
micahgScottL: so those, are a little more difficult, but you can prepare a signed package somewhere that someone can grab or ask someone to do the upload (I assume you have commit access to the bzr branch already)19:38
ScottLmicahg, indeed, i do19:39
micahgScottL: I'm not quite sure what best practice is for those, I already had upload access when I started to do that for xubuntu19:39
ScottLi have imposed on the.muso in the past, i suppose this practice can continue, micahg 19:40
micahgScottL: yeah, I see he's sponsored those for you, maybe we can ask him in a few hours what he thinks19:41
ScottLpersia, has also done so in past, but he has not been active lately :(19:41
micahgI"m happy to do it as well (it's a kick it off and go do something else kinda thing)19:41
ScottLmicahg, i would appreciate his input as well19:41
micahgI've also been picking up random unclaimed ubunustudio stuff to sync, but I can leave those for you or someone else if you have people to work on them19:42
micahgScottL: you also want to check https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html and the LP bug package for the package to make sure someone else isn't working on it ATM19:50
ScottLmicahg, which type of unclaimed ubuntustudio?  are you speaking of audio packages from debian?20:03
micahgScottL: whatever in the packageset needed merging and hasn't been touched for a while, you can use that localpackagediff page to find what's outstanding and it's good practice to ask the person who touched it last before doing the merge/sync20:05
ScottLi thought much of what what synced from debian was automatic, are you saying that it is done manually?20:08
micahgno, most is, if there's an Ubuntu diff though, it requires review and either a new merge or a sync20:10
micahgwe only have about 3k out of 20k with diffs from Debian and only about 1k need attention across the archive20:11
ScottLah. that makes better sense20:11
micahgthe whole ubuntustudio packageset is ~500 packages it seems20:13
micahg27 need attention, 12 are shared w/other derivatives20:14
ScottLthere are quite a few packages that cross other groups, including xubuntu at you mentioned20:15
micahgthat localpackagediff page shows the overlap20:15
ScottLlike ia32-libs, both for edubuntu and ubuntustudio?20:17
micahgia32-libs is a dead horse, but yes :)20:17
micahgyou can safely ignore it as a package to merge, but it's rdepends do need to be multiarched for P or you will have broken stuff: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-October/034279.html 20:19
micahgalthough, I'm not sure if you want to tackle that for your beginning foraging into packaging :)20:19
ScottLmicahg, to be forthcoming, i will not be prepared to start any of these until after uds, although i am keenly interested in doing so20:40
micahgScottL: sure, whenever you're ready :)20:40
ScottLi still have a busy week of work before uds along with some incidental commitments i need to address as well20:40
ScottLfor example, i am writing up a blueprint for getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repos....20:41
ScottLmicahg, would you be able to explain, in broad terms, the required process for getting the actual code into the repos once i have it built in ppa or a team branch?20:42
ScottLif not, that is completely understandable20:42
micahgScottL: create a debdiff against the version in the archive and attach to a bug, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors or create a merge proposal into the lp:ubuntu/foo branch which foo is the package (unless there's another Vcs-Bzr in the control file for Ubuntu)20:43
micahgScottL: team branch I think you just need to attach the branch to the bug20:45
micahgand then subscribe ubuntu-sponsors20:46
ScottLmicahg, in your opinion is it worth (or even still in time) to suggest the -lowlatency blueprint for uds-p?21:01
ScottLfalktx, daniel holbach suggested that the lightdm-theme should depends on ubuntustudio-wallpaper, do you know why he would suggest this?21:03
ScottLfalktx, is the image we are using for the lightdm-theme in the -wallpapers package?21:04
falktxScottL: it needs the wallpaper21:04
falktxso yes, it's in the wallpapers package, and it should depend no it because of it21:04
falktx*on it21:05
ScottLfalktx,  do you have time to update that package and push to the bzr branch?21:05
falktxScottL: later next week, I no longer run Ubuntu21:05
* falktx is on Arch21:05
ScottLlol, okay i'll make time this coming week then and update the bug report ;)21:06
ScottLmicahg, re: -lowlatency kernel, the process you describe sounds like i do not need to wait for uds-p to decide the kernel version, i can make it all now?21:23
micahgScottL: umm, the kernel team usually decides the kernel version :)21:24
ScottLmicahg, but doesn't UKT do that at uds-p?21:26
micahgyes21:26
ScottLokay21:26
ScottLwould i need to wait until then to start the -lowlatency kernel process?21:27
micahgScottL: I'm not familiar with what's required, do you have a link to the blueprint?21:27
ScottLi do....21:27
ScottLhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/lowlatency-kernel-in-repos21:27
ScottLgranted, i wrote it and it's not heavy on technicals21:28
ScottLin fact, i'm still really writing the specification at this point21:28
micahgScottL: you should discuss with the kernel team, they'd be best suited to help21:29
micahgunless you intend on maintaining a kernel...'21:29
ScottLi am intending on maintaining the kernel21:29
ScottLmy experience with ukt has been a little...interesting21:30
micahgoh, hmm....that's a large security undertaking21:30
ScottLthe -lowlatency kernel is based on the ubuntu kernel21:30
ScottLwith the exception of some flags during complie21:30
ScottLcompile21:30
ScottLthis isn't the realtime kernel with an invasive patch21:30
micahgso, you plan to rebase/update when they do security releases (~every 3 weeks)21:30
ScottLif that is required, yes....this kernel is very important to ubuntu studio21:31
micahgScottL: you can discuss that with jjohansen21:33
ScottLukt has expressed that they will not maintain another kernel for a niche derivative (or flavour)21:33
ScottLi completely understand that position21:33
ScottLit will need to be a community maintained kernel, therefore i would expect it to be in universe21:33
ScottLand then we can ship it in the ubuntu studio image :)21:34
ScottLmicahg, is jjoahnsen in the ukt irc channel?21:34
ScottLor #ubuntu-kernel21:34
micahgScottL: maybe, he'll be in #ubuntu-hardened on Monday (he's the Security Kernel engineer)21:35
ScottLi'll note to talk to him on monday during work if i can get some free time (i'm really trying to get many things done before uds, including working saturday and today morning)21:36
ScottLyou have been quite a wealth of both information and assistance, micahg  :)21:38
ScottLi very much appreciate your time and attention21:38
micahgScottL: my pleasure, glad I was able to help21:38
ScottLmicahg, one other question, i decided to go ahead and update the ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme package and add Depends: ubuntustudio-wallpapers21:47
ScottLas i update the changelog i am presuming that i need to change the releae to precise at this time21:47
ScottLwe will not get it into oneiric for release obviously21:47
ScottLi'm not missing anything about that am i?21:48
micahgScottL: well, I generally advise people to set to UNRELEASED until it's ready for upload (the uploader can set the release), unless you're sure it needs no other changes21:48
ScottLi shall go with UNRELEASED then, that sounds very sane and prudent, i wonder why no one else has mentioned this before21:49
ScottLi rather like it, actually21:50
ScottLheh, i need to do more packaging so i don't have to keep relying on my cheat sheet :P22:09
micahgScottL: it's not a test, cheat sheets are fine :)22:24

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