[02:45] This XFCE reminds me a little of the later Amiga desktop look... === micahg_ is now known as micahg [03:21] i missed some action i see [03:22] hey holstein how are you [03:23] stochastic: YO [03:23] im well [03:23] and you? [03:30] good holstein, I just had a friend stop by so I'll talk in a bit [17:45] ScottL, I've removed ubuntustudio-dev from the testers group in Launchpad now. [17:46] I had not realized I was still owner of that group, if you'd like to take over ownership just let me know [17:48] oh btw, I've tried to propose my packages for inclusion in Debian, but I get "failed to connect to " error, I assume my current GPRS connection is too crappy. I'll try again as soon as I get normal internet back. [17:49] shnatsel, maybe you can enlighten me on the current state of things [17:49] stochastic, thank you for that, i'll turn around and add the -testers team to the -dev, if that is okay [17:49] hey ScottL [17:49] stochastic, i'm not sure about the ownership of the -testers team at this moment [17:50] do you need me to post any update on ubuntustudio.org about the newest release (or is there a new 11.10 release of ubuntustudio, I recall an e-mail mid-dev cycle about stopping releases) [17:50] shnatsel, you can also send an email manually to the debian multimedia team mailing list for th ITP [17:50] stochastic, that's a funny position, because we did make the release but it isn't really "finished" [17:50] ??? [17:50] i think that email was generated by cory who has been a stauch support of dropping releases and going the ppa route for some time [17:51] stochastic, the 11.10 release is quite stable and function, just not pretty [17:51] we had some issues completing the xfce transition [17:51] okay [17:51] my friend installed it and said it's not usable... [17:51] we have changes in bzr but they never got pushed to the main repos [17:51] ah, that's a pity [17:52] * stochastic is getting used to the new ubiquity interface right now [17:52] shnatsel, i installed it too but found it usable, i would like to know which parts he has trouble with so we can research it [17:52] ScottL: ok, I'll ask him [17:53] this reminds me, micahg , we were scheduled to talk about permissions to the repositories? [17:53] ScottL: yeah, I was about to have lunch, how about 1 hr from now? [17:53] absolutely, i'm home all day, just piddling around with stuff [17:54] stochastic, part of the problem during the last few cycles was that we didn't have permission to the repos so some we suffered some stagnation there [17:54] other parts are normal attrition that projects see [17:54] ScottL, since I've been blind to the development over the last year (maybe two) can you give me a brief 'state of things' rundown (four sentences)? Is stability of RT kernel a worry, interface (xfce), etc...? [17:54] and we did get a slow start and weren't very focused during the last cycle in particular [17:54] okay, can do that... [17:56] 1. probably not using -rt anymore, trying to get -lowlatency into repos because it can be built from ubuntu kernel and adjusting irq priorities can be done with all kernel versions from 2.6.39 [17:56] 2. xfce transition needs work and tweaking still, probably need to just use an existing theme that doesn't require maintenance from us at this point [17:57] 3. we are using jack2 now, which now has "-rt privileges" and the user needs to be in the 'audio' group [17:58] yay jack2!!! [17:58] ScottL, if greybird isn't totally bad-looking in your opinion, it's a good choice because it's the only xfce theme that supports gtk3 at least somewhat, and more support will come during the pangolin cycle [17:58] 4. this cycle, shnatsel and i are working towards dropping the alternate image and making a live dvd image [17:58] knome: sounds great [17:58] mmh :) [17:58] 5. there is a good plan to update the website and documentation [17:59] knome, as i mentioned, i think greybird is very nice in terms of being clean, not confusing, but still aesthetically pleasing [17:59] yeah [18:00] that's the idea in greybird [18:00] knome, holstein and i were talking, our opinion is "just get it done", so if we can't find anything better at this point, we go with greybird [18:00] we are tired of plucking around and not getting things done...really, really tired and frustrated [18:00] ScottL, yeah. even if you want to do something else, you really should be in contact with the shimmer team [18:01] ScottL, which i'm leading too, btw ;) [18:01] knome, cool :) we'll see, if we get greybird in there and get other things done as well, maybe we'll explore that, maybe next cycle if not [18:01] yeah. [18:02] we have a lot for this cycle, but i think it's doable, but i really want to try to do what we did before...say we are going to do everything, and then people get overwhelmed and nothing gets done [18:02] greybird will most probably (like 99.9999% possibility) be the default for xubuntu 12.04, and we're really trying to make it as stable as possible, even with gtk3 [18:02] would it be a good idea to put a new update on the ubuntustudio.org site that describes the latest 'release' as an optional release (or transitional release)? [18:02] i see it's mostly about maintaining and fixing little bits in xubuntu in 12.04 :) [18:02] stochastic, are you okay with what you have heard so far? [18:02] sound good ScottL [18:03] I suggest the web update merely to keep all users in the loop and not appear to be a dead project [18:04] stochastic, the two main things holstein and i want to focus on are the -lowlatency kernel and the website [18:04] (followed by a close third of live dvd for me and shnatsel) ;) [18:04] cool [18:04] stochastic, i'm going to uds this year (was sponsored surprisngly) and i'm going to push the -lowlatency kernel [18:04] ScottL, i'll push the first commit to LP soonish so the IS can get through it, and maybe set it to the staging site too [18:04] i still don't know _who_ will make it happen as far as the repos go [18:05] i can build it but i don't know the procedure or process for getting it in (and i don't want to go through REVU) [18:05] knome, do i need to do anything further for the -website team for the branch or code? [18:05] ScottL, i don't think so [18:05] knome, also, holstein and i will be adding content to the development site [18:05] yeah, np [18:06] that won't be automatically copied to the staging site, but it's easy enough to do manually [18:06] stochastic, but that is good thinking though about not appearing like a dead website [18:06] stochastic, i've been fighting with chris jones to get timely and correct access to the current website to update it [18:06] feel free to update it :) [18:07] ng keeps sending emails but they are using the wrong key (one time my mistake, once his) or it hasn't worked :/ [18:07] ScottL, btw, i might be taking a week (or so) off from FOSS starting from next week, but ending before UDS in any case [18:07] err, before UDS ends :P [18:07] knome, no problem, that might give holstein and i time to work on the site :) [18:08] just mentioning it now so it doesn't come as a complete surprise if i decide to do that :) [18:08] yeah [18:08] lol, knome, that's a good point ;) [18:08] given the history of people dropping the website i might have become quite upset and distraught :-) [18:08] ScottL, if you could write up a QUICK press release/note (no more than a single paragraph) about the latest state of 11.10 I'll gladly post it. I just don't want to write it as I'm mostly blind to the state of things. [18:09] hehe [18:09] stochastic, would an ETA of this afternoon be okay with you for that? [18:09] take as long as is required ScottL [18:11] where is astraljava? [18:14] hey knome, First, hi I'm Eric nice to meet you. Second, the new site is nice, I see it's wordpress rather than drupal - I was thinking drupal would be an easier drop-in replacement but I doubt at this stage it'd be feasible to switch. [18:14] stochastic: dont start knome on drupal... [18:14] :P [18:14] :-) [18:14] hey jussi [18:15] heya stochastic, been a while... [18:15] yeah, I just left one of my two jobs jussi so I'm back to a 40hr work week instead of the 70hr one I was on for the last year [18:15] stochastic, we had to rewrite the site (theme) completely anyway, so staying on drupal didn't have any other pluses than keeping the old content intact - which isn't much [18:16] stochastic, as jussi said, better not start on drupal with me ;) [18:16] * ScottL was snacking for lunch [18:16] stochastic, thank you [18:16] stochastic, nice to see you too though :) [18:16] stochastic, bon appetit [18:16] err, ScottL [18:17] knome, I trust the decision was made wisely, I'm just trying to get up to speed [18:17] stochastic, heh, yeah, np :) [18:17] stochastic, i understand that wordpress was verboten at one point, but many of the ubuntu sites are now wordpress sites [18:17] knome, the main plus I considered was that all the old access permissions/security/etc... would remain in place. [18:17] wordpress is actually much much more easy to manage than drupal, really [18:18] okay [18:18] I've yet to learn that system [18:18] stochastic, yeah, that too, but adding access to people in wordpress is really easy too [18:19] stochastic, i have some (bad) experiences with drupal in the 5/6 days, but lately, almost every commercial web project i've done has been on wordpress, and thus i'm very familiar with it [18:19] cool [18:19] probably the biggest reason to use wordpress [18:19] so the timeframe for this switchover would be... [18:19] plus, it has gotten better in CMS-style things too [18:20] if everything goes as expected, i think something like a month (max) would be a realistic timeframe [18:20] * stochastic looks forward to the facelift [18:20] we're getting the theme ready for canonical review really soon [18:20] stochastic, http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/wordpress/ [18:20] that's what we have now, and it's all already under wordpress [18:21] yeah, scott had given me the link earlier [18:21] stochastic, we have an rt ticket to get the site staged and then we have the review [18:21] yup [18:21] ScottL, actually, the review comes first, after that, the staging site ;) [18:21] I notice the current beta site doesn't have any of the social media functions that had been brainstormed in the early stages of the discussion... [18:21] we can include social media [18:21] just tell me what you want to have [18:21] knome, sorry if that upsets you, but i did share that link with stochastic as he was pretty involved previously with the website and wanted his (much more informed) opinion [18:22] yeah, no problem :) [18:22] just made sure he had seen it [18:23] ScottL, that website planning wiki page you had going, is that still kicking around/being used? [18:25] one note about social stuff btw [18:25] if we add any plugins, they must be reviewed and approved by canonical [18:25] so that will mean it takes more time [18:26] yeah that was an earlier concern about it too [18:26] stochastic, not directly as it probably needs to be cleaned up significantly and refocused [18:26] * stochastic browses the wiki again & refreshes memory about monthly meetings etc.. [18:27] ScottL, do you have the link handy? [18:28] * knome takes a shower [18:28] don't want wife to pass out of the smell when she comes home [18:32] ScottL, knome https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp [18:34] stochastic, yes, that is it, i think there is a blueprint as well [18:35] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/update-ubuntustudio-website [18:35] i think it links to that wiki page as well [18:35] looks like a lot of people have done some significant work on this web revamp but seems like it's been disjointed [18:36] knome I'd love to know if you need a hand with any of it [18:37] ScottL, the http://www.myhaiku.org/ site, has that contributor vanished? [18:37] stochastic, after the initial commit to the LP repository, there is little what you can do [18:38] stochastic, after that, i've no problems in cooperating or others contributing [18:39] knome, I see on the blueprint that there are some TODO items that I'd be happy to help with [18:39] stochastic, i believe he moved to japan on business and is quite overwhelmed with that [18:40] stochastic, there was another who just vanished without any word [18:40] going upstairs a bit, be back in fifteen or twenty minutes [18:42] knome, the creation of content and new pages is marked for ScottL and holstein to tackle, the peer review doesn't have any owner/driver yet, can I help with either of those steps? [18:43] stochastic, give me your email and full name, and i'll create you an account on the current site and you can start with the reviewing now :) [18:46] knome, so now that I have access, what sort of review are you looking for? [18:47] you'd be better asking from ScottL and holstein [18:47] aesthetic? logistic? security? [18:47] content mostly, i think [18:47] and aesthetic too, in the sense of how elements inside the content should be arranged [18:48] with that, you need to contact me since not all of the css for the content stuff is in place yet [18:49] cool, well I'm about to get out the door with some errands I need to do today, but this can be my fodder to look through in the coming days [18:55] yup :) [18:55] thanks for helping out [19:01] bbl -> [19:02] stochastic, for now we have discussed including the following for the website: [19:02] 1. news/accouncement page [19:02] 2. download page [19:03] 3. links to tutorials/help (presumably help.ubuntu.com) [19:03] 4. link to "contribute to studio" (wiki.ubuntu.com page) [19:03] [19:04] we had considered having the website show the help.ubuntu.com pages [19:04] we had considered social media [19:05] but we currently have simplified our scope to ensure that it gets done, provides a minimal of functionality, and looks good [19:06] i do not think that neither holstein or i have time to invest in more than that at this point [19:07] at least until other times are resolved [19:07] "resolved/comleted" [19:16] hi ScottL, is now good? [19:21] micahg, absolutely! [19:21] ScottL: so, the requirements are fairly simple, 6 months sustained contribution and demonstrated packaging knowledge for the set being requested [19:23] micahg, i strongly suggest that i have the former, i have less explicit faith in the later [19:23] although i would suggest that i do have experience both in packaging and our package set [19:24] the experience is both with audio packages and studio packages [19:24] howeve, i would expect to make mistakes, discover them, and fix them [19:24] s/howeve/however [19:26] ScottL: indeed :), well, looking at your uploads, you have 10 from 11/2009 - 04/2011, mostly with regards to ubuntustudio specific packages (meta, default-settings, look), there's only one package that you modified from Debian and that was back in 2010 for an SRU to lucid [19:26] some of the ubuntustudio packages are in other packagesets as well, so one has to be careful not to break other derivatives [19:27] this is especially important closer to release [19:28] hmmm, i'm surprised that some of the studio packages are in other packagesets [19:29] ScottL: right, so we all make mistakes, the key is to learn from them and try not to make the same mistakes twice [19:29] aye ;) [19:29] that is a mantra i espouse at work as engineering/detailing supervisor as well ;) [19:31] does the studio packageset include non studio packages, i.e. mainstream audio packages? [19:31] ScottL: I would suggest taking this cycle to get some sponsored uploads in various components of the ubuntustudio package set, one you feel comfortable that you'd be willing to upload w/out a sponsor (confident there are no mistakes, yes there might be, but you don't know about them) or someone else suggests that you've reached that point [19:31] ScottL: here is the packageset list: http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/oneiric/ubuntustudio [19:32] since ubuntustudio switched to xfce, there's a lot of overlap w/xubuntu [19:34] micahg, and to find a sponsor i would need to request it in #ubuntu-motu as needed, correct? [19:34] ScottL: you can get a list of stuff that needs merging/syncing from Debian for the ubuntustudio packageset here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+localpackagediffs, just select the packageset you want [19:35] ScottL: you can prepare a bug and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors or prepare a branch to merge into lp:ubuntu/foo (unless there's another Vcs-Bzr for the package) [19:35] micahg, okay :) [19:36] if it's urgent you can ask for a sponsor in #ubuntu-motu or ping the patch pilot in #ubuntu-devel (listed in /topic there) [19:36] i don't want to impugn anyone's work or ethic, however i need to ask, are ubuntu-sponsors responsive? [19:36] the queue is getting under control again [19:36] ah, you have more or less answered my question [19:37] around release time I think it was hard, but there are ~8-10 pilots scheduled per week that tackle the queue as well as other people who will sponsor stuff from there [19:37] i have seen danial t chen mention the "patch pilot" before, i will read more about this [19:37] ScottL: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews [19:37] micahg, i would ask about germinating and updating the meta packages [19:38] we _will_ need to do this, most likely many times this cycle [19:38] ScottL: so those, are a little more difficult, but you can prepare a signed package somewhere that someone can grab or ask someone to do the upload (I assume you have commit access to the bzr branch already) [19:39] micahg, indeed, i do [19:39] ScottL: I'm not quite sure what best practice is for those, I already had upload access when I started to do that for xubuntu [19:40] i have imposed on the.muso in the past, i suppose this practice can continue, micahg [19:41] ScottL: yeah, I see he's sponsored those for you, maybe we can ask him in a few hours what he thinks [19:41] persia, has also done so in past, but he has not been active lately :( [19:41] I"m happy to do it as well (it's a kick it off and go do something else kinda thing) [19:41] micahg, i would appreciate his input as well [19:42] I've also been picking up random unclaimed ubunustudio stuff to sync, but I can leave those for you or someone else if you have people to work on them [19:50] ScottL: you also want to check https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html and the LP bug package for the package to make sure someone else isn't working on it ATM [20:03] micahg, which type of unclaimed ubuntustudio? are you speaking of audio packages from debian? [20:05] ScottL: whatever in the packageset needed merging and hasn't been touched for a while, you can use that localpackagediff page to find what's outstanding and it's good practice to ask the person who touched it last before doing the merge/sync [20:08] i thought much of what what synced from debian was automatic, are you saying that it is done manually? [20:10] no, most is, if there's an Ubuntu diff though, it requires review and either a new merge or a sync [20:11] we only have about 3k out of 20k with diffs from Debian and only about 1k need attention across the archive [20:11] ah. that makes better sense [20:13] the whole ubuntustudio packageset is ~500 packages it seems [20:14] 27 need attention, 12 are shared w/other derivatives [20:15] there are quite a few packages that cross other groups, including xubuntu at you mentioned [20:15] that localpackagediff page shows the overlap [20:17] like ia32-libs, both for edubuntu and ubuntustudio? [20:17] ia32-libs is a dead horse, but yes :) [20:19] you can safely ignore it as a package to merge, but it's rdepends do need to be multiarched for P or you will have broken stuff: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-October/034279.html [20:19] although, I'm not sure if you want to tackle that for your beginning foraging into packaging :) [20:40] micahg, to be forthcoming, i will not be prepared to start any of these until after uds, although i am keenly interested in doing so [20:40] ScottL: sure, whenever you're ready :) [20:40] i still have a busy week of work before uds along with some incidental commitments i need to address as well [20:41] for example, i am writing up a blueprint for getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repos.... [20:42] micahg, would you be able to explain, in broad terms, the required process for getting the actual code into the repos once i have it built in ppa or a team branch? [20:42] if not, that is completely understandable [20:43] ScottL: create a debdiff against the version in the archive and attach to a bug, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors or create a merge proposal into the lp:ubuntu/foo branch which foo is the package (unless there's another Vcs-Bzr in the control file for Ubuntu) [20:45] ScottL: team branch I think you just need to attach the branch to the bug [20:46] and then subscribe ubuntu-sponsors [21:01] micahg, in your opinion is it worth (or even still in time) to suggest the -lowlatency blueprint for uds-p? [21:03] falktx, daniel holbach suggested that the lightdm-theme should depends on ubuntustudio-wallpaper, do you know why he would suggest this? [21:04] falktx, is the image we are using for the lightdm-theme in the -wallpapers package? [21:04] ScottL: it needs the wallpaper [21:04] so yes, it's in the wallpapers package, and it should depend no it because of it [21:05] *on it [21:05] falktx, do you have time to update that package and push to the bzr branch? [21:05] ScottL: later next week, I no longer run Ubuntu [21:05] * falktx is on Arch [21:06] lol, okay i'll make time this coming week then and update the bug report ;) [21:23] micahg, re: -lowlatency kernel, the process you describe sounds like i do not need to wait for uds-p to decide the kernel version, i can make it all now? [21:24] ScottL: umm, the kernel team usually decides the kernel version :) [21:26] micahg, but doesn't UKT do that at uds-p? [21:26] yes [21:26] okay [21:27] would i need to wait until then to start the -lowlatency kernel process? [21:27] ScottL: I'm not familiar with what's required, do you have a link to the blueprint? [21:27] i do.... [21:27] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/lowlatency-kernel-in-repos [21:28] granted, i wrote it and it's not heavy on technicals [21:28] in fact, i'm still really writing the specification at this point [21:29] ScottL: you should discuss with the kernel team, they'd be best suited to help [21:29] unless you intend on maintaining a kernel...' [21:29] i am intending on maintaining the kernel [21:30] my experience with ukt has been a little...interesting [21:30] oh, hmm....that's a large security undertaking [21:30] the -lowlatency kernel is based on the ubuntu kernel [21:30] with the exception of some flags during complie [21:30] compile [21:30] this isn't the realtime kernel with an invasive patch [21:30] so, you plan to rebase/update when they do security releases (~every 3 weeks) [21:31] if that is required, yes....this kernel is very important to ubuntu studio [21:33] ScottL: you can discuss that with jjohansen [21:33] ukt has expressed that they will not maintain another kernel for a niche derivative (or flavour) [21:33] i completely understand that position [21:33] it will need to be a community maintained kernel, therefore i would expect it to be in universe [21:34] and then we can ship it in the ubuntu studio image :) [21:34] micahg, is jjoahnsen in the ukt irc channel? [21:34] or #ubuntu-kernel [21:35] ScottL: maybe, he'll be in #ubuntu-hardened on Monday (he's the Security Kernel engineer) [21:36] i'll note to talk to him on monday during work if i can get some free time (i'm really trying to get many things done before uds, including working saturday and today morning) [21:38] you have been quite a wealth of both information and assistance, micahg :) [21:38] i very much appreciate your time and attention [21:38] ScottL: my pleasure, glad I was able to help [21:47] micahg, one other question, i decided to go ahead and update the ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme package and add Depends: ubuntustudio-wallpapers [21:47] as i update the changelog i am presuming that i need to change the releae to precise at this time [21:47] we will not get it into oneiric for release obviously [21:48] i'm not missing anything about that am i? [21:48] ScottL: well, I generally advise people to set to UNRELEASED until it's ready for upload (the uploader can set the release), unless you're sure it needs no other changes [21:49] i shall go with UNRELEASED then, that sounds very sane and prudent, i wonder why no one else has mentioned this before [21:50] i rather like it, actually [22:09] heh, i need to do more packaging so i don't have to keep relying on my cheat sheet :P [22:24] ScottL: it's not a test, cheat sheets are fine :)