[00:08] <claydoh> JontheEchidna: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3118966.0;topicseen they are stalking you now :) 
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> <.<
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> >.>
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> *hides*
[00:13] <claydoh> I would, have you seen the " is Muon seriously retarded??" thread?
[00:13] <claydoh> LOL
[00:17] <JontheEchidna> yeah, lol
[00:17] <JontheEchidna> that is how I figured out that muon is (still) doing multiarch wrong, but a bug report first would have been nice...
[00:21] <claydoh> ahh but the forum peeps seldom want to do that :(
[00:21] <claydoh> but then again, i sholuld take the time to assist in that, or do them myself sometimes
[04:09] <lnxkde> great job with 11.10 running great and looking great :D
[12:35] <bambee> hi
[12:35] <tazz> ih
[12:36] <Quintasan> Goddamn
[12:36] <Quintasan> Adding entries into KMenu is not working for me in 4.72
[12:36] <Quintasan> 4.7.2* can anyone test that out?
[12:46] <ScottK> Quintasan: Adding how?  Seems to work here.
[12:47] <Quintasan> ScottK: Like, right click at Kickoff -> 1st option from the menu -> Add new entry -> Try saving
[12:49] <Quintasan> It shows the percentage bar when saving
[12:50] <Quintasan> it never displays any number and then it disappears
[12:50] <Quintasan> and I don't see anything new in menu
[12:50] <Quintasan> But I get a new desktop file at /home/quintasan/.local/share/applications/
[12:52] <ScottK> I agree.
[12:53] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: Apparently, there are Plasma Active images for Transformer
[12:53] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: http://wiki.merproject.com/wiki/Community_Workspace
[12:53] <Quintasan> ScottK: With what?
[12:53] <ScottK> I get the same thing you do.
[12:54] <ScottK> Not sure if it worked before though.
[12:54] <Quintasan> :/
[12:54] <ScottK> It looks like the bug is not looking in the .local dir since the files are there
[12:55] <Quintasan> ScottK: Once I get a VM running and it occurs there too I will report bugz upstream
[15:59] <bambee> JontheEchidna: muon rocks dude! seriously ! it's definitively better than synaptics :D
[16:05] <Darkwing> I have some creavite commons stickers if anyone wants me to bring them to UDS
[18:26] <sheytan> hey guys, what do you think about such thing in KDE desktop http://madsheytan.blogspot.com/2011/10/kiedy-dobre-rozwiazania-mogyby-zagoscic.html
[19:04] <bulldog98> sheytan: I like it, exept the problem, that the activity content (of an other) is not displayable within kwin effect context
[19:06] <sheytan> bulldog98: if you use activity and preview your desktop with grid view (kwin plugin) you get all the windows on secific desktop + desktops preview so what's the problem?
[19:23] <yofel> hm, with 4.7.2 in -updates I should be finishing the backports
[20:06] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kde-l10n-common-natty] Philip Muškovac * 104 * debian/ (changelog config) New upstream release (svn: 1256933, type: stable)
[20:08] <valorie> sheytan: "blow their minds"
[20:09] <valorie> not blow them, please
[20:09] <valorie> :-)
[20:09] <valorie> it looks excellent
[20:10] <valorie> I want Activities to go that last mile and be mind-blowingly excellent
[20:19]  * apachelogger waves fist about activites
[20:20] <apachelogger> did I mention that I am being payed to conduct fist waving nowadays?
[20:20] <valorie> weeeeeee
[20:20] <apachelogger> I think I might have discovered my true calling
[20:20]  * valorie looks forward to more fist-waving
[20:20] <yofel> indeed
[20:21] <valorie> apachelogger - did you hear that we wrote a book?
[20:21] <valorie> like, A BOOK
[20:21] <valorie> sitting next to me
[20:22] <apachelogger> yes, the intartubes told me
[20:22] <apachelogger> how many pages?
[20:22] <apachelogger> does it have nude art?
[20:22] <valorie> about 80
[20:22] <valorie> nude parallelograms
[20:22] <valorie> right on the cover
[20:22] <valorie> sec
[20:22] <apachelogger> uh
[20:22] <apachelogger> a true geeks nude art
[20:22] <apachelogger> awesome
[20:22] <apachelogger> 80 pages is like supreme
[20:35] <valorie> when you have a chance, probably like....next year, perhaps you can read and make necessary changes
[20:35] <valorie> we think it's good, but want it to be excellent
[20:36] <valorie> so maybe slightly more nude nudes on the second cover
[20:42] <valorie> wow, bug-fixing and polishing only, it sounds like: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/810
[20:42] <apachelogger> valorie: I hear yofel would like to model
[20:42] <valorie> about time there was some focus on that
[20:42] <valorie> oooo
[20:42] <apachelogger> ah, always them long blog posts -.-
[20:42] <maco> people only been begging for years for it...
[20:42] <valorie> a volunteer model!
[20:42] <valorie> maco, yes
[20:43] <valorie> AND a call out for accessability again
[20:43] <apachelogger> there is no bug you can't fix with fist waving
[20:43] <valorie> about time......
[20:43] <apachelogger> works every single time
[20:43] <yofel> WHAT???
[20:43]  * yofel hits apachelogger with a konqi figure
[20:43] <apachelogger> awww, yofi, c'mon
[20:43] <maco> valorie: given the irc meeting between pen & jono, that doesnt actually mean more canonical resources devoted to it...just more going "pretty please will someone volunteer to help with a11y?" on blogs or something, since there are now a total of 3 programmers on a11y team
[20:44] <valorie> oh, ugh
[20:44] <apachelogger> maco: cool
[20:44] <maco> 1 being luke who does it part-time for canonical, 1 being pinheiro who i think is a kde guy and got contracted by canonical toward the end of oneiric to do some last minute fixing, and one being yours truly
[20:44] <valorie> otoh, if the programmers were all apachelogger clones......
[20:45] <apachelogger> why put monies into it if you can suck free labour out of the communities
[20:45] <apachelogger> omnomnomnom
[20:45] <maco> (i say luke part-time because he's a fulltime canonical employee who has to split attention between a11y and audio)
[20:45] <valorie> are you contracting, or ?
[20:45] <maco> apachelogger: btw, in the responses to jono's survey, someone suggested hiring you
[20:45] <maco> valorie: no
[20:45] <valorie> so really, 1.5
[20:45] <maco> i just occasionally go "are you serious? *sigh* *hack* *poke luke with patch*"
[20:45] <valorie> not 3
[20:46] <maco> i meant the entire ubuntu a11y team
[20:46] <maco> there is no a11y team at canonical, afaik
[20:46] <valorie> good lord
[20:46] <maco> most of the a11y team is testers, and there are bugs they're finding that none of us know how to fix
[20:46] <apachelogger> maco: nice, then again nokia was faster even though they were pretty slow :P
[20:46] <valorie> does anyone call out shuttleworth on his ... um, hypocrisy?
[20:47] <valorie> trying to stay family friendly here.....
[20:48] <valorie> but maybe a11y bugs will be given some priority by canonical?
[20:48] <maco> the release team does give a crap. if i point out feature requests that would have a significant impact on accessibility-tool users to kate, she'll bring them up with the desktop team to try to get them in, even last minute
[20:49] <maco> there is a rule in bug triaging that a11y bugs are automatically bumped up one notch on importance
[20:49] <apachelogger> which reminds me
[20:49] <ScottK> maco: I think that's true for more people in the release team than just Kate.
[20:49] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: we do bug triage, we however do not fix bugs
[20:49] <apachelogger> I see a fatal flaw there ^^
[20:50] <maco> ScottK: im sure, just she's the one i talk to most, so if i mention a thing in passing, she'll push for it
[20:50] <maco> JontheEchidna: btw, my neighbor <3 muon
[20:50] <apachelogger> kubuntuforums doesn't :P
[20:51] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: actually .... what I came to think of the other day... muon and the installer need a busy indication while it is mapping stuff around
[20:51] <apachelogger> with many super sized repos it can a bit to load
 what is this muon business? It looks cool. Is it cool?
 it appears to be like kpackagekit but with more features and pretty stuff
 ok, well I am interested in this muon, and wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
[20:51] <JontheEchidna> :D
[20:52] <maco> ScottK: also, i dont actually know which people are also on the release team. i think maybe you are.
[20:52] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: the difference is, triaging bugs often requires much less effort than fixing them :P
[20:52] <maco> except youre a volunteer so im not sure if you can be
[20:52] <ScottK> Yes.  I am.
[20:52] <maco> but i know you have special powers
[20:52] <ScottK> There's a number of non-Canonical people on the release team.
[20:52] <JontheEchidna> brb, dinner
[20:52] <apachelogger> volunteers not being able to be on the release team would be a bit rubbish
[20:52] <apachelogger> 'a bit'
[20:53] <maco> i wasnt sure if it was an ubuntu team or canonical team
[20:53] <maco> like the confusion valorie just had about a11y team
[20:53] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: yeah, but once Darkwing launches our super tirage team we need to flesh out a work flow for getting stuff done
[20:53] <apachelogger> as the new super team should free up resources for developers
[20:54] <valorie> myriam/mamarok could be a great resource for that team
[20:54] <valorie> Darkwing: ^^^
[20:54] <maco> valorie: a big part of the problem with a11y stuff is the docs are sucky.  cjwatson & kate both said theyd like to help out but dont know how. i said i can just sorta kinda muddle through but not enough to teach.
[20:54] <valorie> she totally rocks on Amarok bugs
[20:55] <apachelogger> that is very true indeed
[20:55] <valorie> maco, nobody is interested in doin good documentation?
[20:55] <maco> with lots of digging i found a doc that helps with a11y stuff, but a lot of what i was reading was flying over my head too
[20:55] <valorie> "lots of digging" -- that is no good
[20:55] <maco> valorie: i dont think anyone in ubuntu or canonical knows the stuff well enough to write it. we're depending on upstream docs buried deep in google
[20:56] <valorie> maco: want to write a book with me about it?
[20:56] <maco> i dont know how to do it
[20:56] <maco> i know how to assign things in glade
[20:56] <maco> and how to say that a radio button and label go together
[20:56] <valorie> but we can find people to help
[20:57] <maco> but just making a window screenreader-happy isnt enough of course
[20:57] <valorie> if we organize, and glop the old stuff into flossmanuals, then we can find people to help make it usable
[20:57] <maco> the thing i got kate to put on the schedule very late was making it so that searching "accessibility" in unity didnt come up blank.  the apps are tagged "accessibility" as a keyword in .desktop but keywords were ignored
[20:58] <valorie> we could make this cross disto
[20:58] <apachelogger> valorie: if you put nude art on it we could even sell it and make monies to employ someone to actually work on a11y
[20:58] <valorie> and get lots of people helping
[20:58] <apachelogger> funny fact part of phonon for quite some time had a string mapping of ally
[20:58] <apachelogger> ^^
[20:58] <valorie> another job for yofel!
[20:58] <apachelogger> yofi, you better be hitting the gym hard
[20:58] <yofel> . . .
[20:59]  * apachelogger should do that too FWIW
[20:59] <valorie> heeee
[20:59]  * valorie is gonna be making a walking desk Any Day Now
[20:59] <valorie> sick of sitting all day
[21:00] <valorie> husband said he would help with the desk part
[21:00] <yofel> hehe
[21:00] <apachelogger> what is a walking desk?
[21:00] <valorie> and didn't get angry about the "treadmill in the living room" part
[21:00] <Riddell> bonsoir
[21:00] <valorie> treadmill with a desk, basically
[21:01] <valorie> you can walk about 1mph and still read, type, etc
[21:01] <valorie> do that 8 hours per day and you have 8 miles in
[21:02] <valorie> http://www.treadmill-desk.com/
[21:03] <valorie> anyway, maco, think about it
[21:03] <valorie> and I'll think about it with some people
[21:03] <valorie> it could be a huge help to a11y in the modern FOSS world
[21:04] <valorie> foss used to be a leader
[21:04] <valorie> now we are sorta fusty dusty
[21:07] <Riddell> KDE could be a leader now Qt has it, just needs some keen people again
[21:07] <Riddell> alas all the KDE people who were keen on accessibility got bored waiting on Qt
[21:12] <maco> Riddell: the good news is screenreaders Just Work for any K-widget heavily based on a Q-widget
[21:12] <maco> however, that leaves out Konsole and KHTML
[21:15] <Riddell> mm, except that in oneiric qt-at-spi crashes most KDE programmes
[21:15] <Riddell> I think I'm going to have an update which has  unset QT_ACCESSIBILITY in /usr/bin/startkde
[21:16] <maco> oh right yes, that bug
[21:17] <maco> this was mentioned recently... apparently it doesnt crash unity and thats what htey cared most about
[21:17] <maco> (of course)
[21:21]  * yofel got a mail asking wether all KDE point releases will now end up in -updates once they're released, not only the updates PPA and then SRU .5
[21:24] <yofel> considering uploading to -proposed took us over a week for 4.7.2. I would rather keep 4.7.2 an exception...
[21:24] <yofel> although if we really only upload the changed packages it might be doable. Question is by whom
[21:28] <Riddell> yofel: we have permission to do it and it would make sense, but it's a question of testing and manpower
[21:28] <Riddell> and I suspect we're not high on manpower in the coming months
[21:28] <Riddell> (appologies for the possible sexist grammar there, feel free to suggest improvements)
[21:29] <ulysses> use a language that doesn't make difference between man and woman :P
[21:30] <yofel> *if* we only package the *changed* packages in the first place, instead of the whole point release, then one could spend more time on Q/A. But that then leads back to the question of how confusing it is to have pieces of the release in several different versions
[21:30] <debfx> maybe yofel can pay someone to do the SRUs if his modelling career takes off ;)
[21:30] <yofel> don't count on that ;P
[21:31] <yofel> although If I only focus on the SRU stuff I guess I could get those done in half a week of so
[21:32] <yofel> one could think of the "what to update" problem anyway thinking that 4.8 will probably have ~90 packages
[21:33] <Riddell> 90!
[21:33]  * debfx sighs
[21:33] <yofel> kdeaccessibility + kdeutils, and 4.7 had ~70
[21:33] <Riddell> we probably need to look at scripting it as much as possible
[21:34] <yofel> we already use scripts for the packaging. Only the backports I never got around to script
[21:34] <Riddell> do we?  clever us
[21:34]  * debfx doesn't
[21:35] <yofel> see kubuntu-dev-tools part of https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Ninjas/BuildEnvironment on what scripts we have right now
[21:35]  * yofel needs to rewrite the release packaging guide one of these days
[21:35] <debfx> we also need some automated QA like running lintian and list-missing automatically
[21:35] <maco> theres a kubuntu-dev-tools?
[21:35] <yofel> maco: in bzr, as we're really good at forgetting to upload it
[21:36] <maco> oh
[21:36] <maco> add a script in it that uploads it!
[21:36] <yofel> heh
[21:36]  * yofel wonders if one  could put daily builds of that somewhere
[21:36] <yofel> guess I could make a PPA for that
[21:36] <Riddell> ideally I think we want to be able to throw a release at EC2 and have it build then review the cmake output for missing dependencies, the --list-missing output and the install result
[21:37] <debfx> there are still missing license headers in kubuntu-dev-tools, that's why I've never uploaded it
[21:37] <yofel> true, also some packages have totally useless error output
[21:37] <debfx> Riddell: could you add those to the ec2/ scripts?
[21:37] <Riddell> there are ec2 scripts?
[21:38] <debfx> yeah, someone called Jonathan Riddell committed them ;)
[21:38] <yofel> which reminds me I need to write kcleanppa soon, cleaning out a PPA with the LP UI is almost as bad as trying to copy something
[21:39] <Riddell> clever him
[21:39] <yofel> ^^
[21:39] <Riddell> yofel: is there an API to clean PPAs?
[21:39] <Riddell> I use the ssh interface to that but others don't have access to that
[21:40] <yofel> there *should* be an API to delete packages. So I just need to get all published packages for a PPA and delete every one of them
[21:40] <yofel> after all copying work, so deleting should be there too
[21:40] <yofel> *works
[21:48] <valorie> Riddell: if I rope maco into helping write a book, perhaps we'll draw in those KDE a11y folks again too
[21:48] <valorie> after GCI
[21:49] <Riddell> hmm, I'm not sure there are any left
[21:49] <valorie> although we should start soon, so we can start dumping stuff in as we find it/think of it
[21:49] <valorie> Riddell: did they DIE?
[21:49] <valorie> or just go elsewhere
[21:49] <Riddell> quite possibly, it's been a long wait
[21:49] <Riddell> jpwhiting did a bit recently
[21:50] <valorie> that sucks
[21:50] <Riddell> olaf is still on kde/freeqt
[21:50] <valorie> :(
[21:50] <Riddell> gunner I haven't heard from and that american bloke had to give it up for his work
[21:50] <valorie> if you think about it, shoot me a list of their names and emails
[21:51] <valorie> so I can ping them once we have something semi-readable
[21:53] <Riddell> just use kde-accessibility list
[21:54] <valorie> ok
[22:12] <Uninstall> hey
[22:12] <Uninstall> anybody here?
[22:13] <yofel> Uninstall: yep
[22:14] <yofel> ah, skype
[22:16] <Uninstall> yofel: exactly
[22:17] <Uninstall> honestly I'm a bit worried about how kubuntu has been released with a similar bug
[22:18] <Uninstall> you should test your package manager if you replace it
[22:18] <Uninstall> I mean kpackagekit never tired to install random packages
[22:18] <Uninstall> while muon does
[22:18] <yofel> uhm... multiarch support was forced by ubuntu and put together hastily for muon so muon isn't totally broken
[22:18] <Uninstall> I would call that a regression
[22:18] <yofel> random packages o.O?
[22:19] <Uninstall> yofel: well, I installed skype from software center and it installed libc6-xen
[22:19] <Uninstall> and honestly I think I was rather lucky
[22:20] <yofel> hm, no idea. I'm not using multiarch and don't have a libc6-xen package here. So that seems multiarch related
[22:20] <Uninstall> what happens if the random package was something like grub-efi on my non efi system?
[22:21] <yofel> nothing particulary good
[22:21] <Uninstall> exactly
[22:21] <Uninstall> so I was lucky with libc6-xen that is rather useless
[22:28] <JontheEchidna> The good news is that it's libc6-zen for everybody
[22:29] <JontheEchidna> and that the new version of Muon that I'm in the middle of pushing out isn't affected by this issue
[22:31] <JontheEchidna> and things were working with 1.2.0 before Ubuntu enable multi-arch in apt after feature freeze, at which point things were tested to have been working
[22:42] <valorie> Riddell: turns out I wasn't subbed to that list, so thank you for the reminder
[22:42] <valorie> also, their website has many cobwebs on it
[22:42] <valorie> suitable for Hallowe'en, even
[22:47] <CIA-130> [lp:kubuntu-dev-tools] Philip Muškovac * 130 * (bin/klearppa debian/changelog) Added klearppa to clear out the packages in a PPA
[22:47] <yofel> needs some error handling, but does its job
[22:47]  * yofel is off to bed - good night
[22:51] <JontheEchidna> is that anything like ppa-purge?