[01:57]  * pleia2 waves
[01:57] <pleia2> meeting in a couple minutes :)
[01:59] <akk> yay, I'm actually here for a meeting
[01:59] <pleia2> we don't have an agenda, so hopefully it'll be short :)
[02:00] <iheartubuntu> i hope i dont miss it then :)
[02:00] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[02:00]  * jtatum waves :)
[02:00] <pleia2> ok, welcome everyone!
[02:00] <pleia2> so our agenda is technically empty: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/11October23
[02:00] <pleia2> but I want to jump right in and talk about our leadership situation
[02:01] <pleia2> several weeks ago Darkwing put a call out for people to volunteer for the leadership team, we have 3 spots and ended up with 3 applicants: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Leadership/2011
[02:01] <pleia2> so just like last year, not enough for a proper election
[02:02] <akk> 3 good candidates, though!
[02:02] <philipballew> looks good to me
[02:02] <pleia2> so we figured the fairest way to do this is to give folks an opportunity to express any concerns they may have with these three folks and handle it accordingly, if no one has problems then they get added when the old team expires on October 27th
[02:02] <iheartubuntu> looks good to me too. i would love to but dont know what is needed to perform duties
[02:03] <pleia2> the way we'll do this is have jdeslip collect any concerns, since he's still a leader and he's not running again
[02:03] <akk> I have no concerns about any of the three -- I'd vote for them all.
[02:03] <philipballew> i dont really like pleia2 she's to nice and works to hard :)
[02:03] <pleia2> he's jdeslip@gmail.com, and I'll send an email to the list explaining all this :)
[02:03] <pleia2> philipballew :)
[02:04] <pleia2> iheartubuntu: the leadership team follows what's outlined in our leadership charter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Leadership
[02:04] <pleia2> day to day we just make sure meetings happen and things are documented properly
[02:04] <Gareth> Hmm. Do the elected have the option to some how eliminate the other two and then rule with an iron fist?
[02:05] <pleia2> Gareth: paying them off is much easier
[02:05] <pleia2> also, less blood
[02:05]  * philipballew also takes bribes if anyone is interested. 
[02:05] <pleia2> so, the only other thing we really have is some event recap :)
[02:06] <Gareth> pleia2: Oh I wasn't implying violence...just wanted to leave the door open for all possibilities.
[02:06] <pleia2> hehe
[02:06] <pleia2> last week we had some things in northern california, sf ubuntu hour and release dinner, and mt view ubuntu hour
[02:06] <philipballew> SD Ubuntu hour
[02:06] <akk> pleia2 just beats the other two with stuffed ubuntu characters until they come around to her way of thinking.
[02:06] <pleia2> I blogged about them here: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=5184 and photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157627938849996/
[02:06] <pleia2> akk: haha
[02:06] <pleia2> philipballew: any comments from that one? pictures? :)
[02:07] <philipballew> comments:
[02:07] <philipballew> well it was just me and the shop owner
[02:07] <jtatum> that happens
[02:07] <pleia2> yeah, I've had 2 person ubuntu hours
[02:07] <philipballew> but it is a Internet coffee shop and we talked about running ubuntu on his machines compared to xp that is there currently
[02:08] <pleia2> last month it was just violajack and I, we called it the ubuntu women hour ;D
[02:08] <pleia2> cool
[02:08] <philipballew> the phil and kevin show is usually what happens here in sd
[02:09] <iheartubuntu> id love to run for office, but if the 3 has been set im very good with that too.
[02:09] <philipballew> When the 11.10 cd's come I will be going over there to deliver some to him
[02:09] <pleia2> great, I'll be shipping them out tomorrow both to you and iheartubuntu
[02:09] <pleia2> already gave mountain view and berkeley their stashes
[02:09] <pleia2> I'll send some down to nhaines as well
[02:10] <iheartubuntu> the last pasadena ubuntu hour had 8 people. jbermudes, gaskin and i are considering the launch of an ubuntu hour in downtown LA soon enough
[02:10] <pleia2> iheartubuntu: nice!
[02:11] <iheartubuntu> i dont know if maksim is here, but he has become a regular to the UH. and jbermudes is a stalwart of the UH for sure!
[02:11] <pleia2> :)
[02:11] <pleia2> that's pretty much all I had meeting-wise
[02:11] <pleia2> any announcements?
[02:12] <pleia2> the Ubuntu Developer Summit is coming up in a week, both Darkwing and I will be there
[02:12] <iheartubuntu> good luck you two
[02:12] <pleia2> thanks :)
[02:12] <jtatum> if anyone wants adhesive backed vinyl ubuntu decals, let me know.
[02:12] <pleia2> jtatum: I put one on my netbook, it's neat :)
[02:12] <jtatum> they look pretty cool on laptops and cars
[02:13] <philipballew> Orlando sounds fun
[02:13] <iheartubuntu> photo? sounds interesting :)
[02:13] <iheartubuntu> ahh before people leave
[02:13] <pleia2> lemme take a picture, sec
[02:13] <iheartubuntu> i'll be setting up a CA team order from the Ubuntu Store soon
[02:13] <philipballew> jtatum, I am interested
[02:14] <philipballew> iheartubuntu, I might want to snag a t-shirt
[02:14] <iheartubuntu> i dont know if any new Ocelot stuff is in yet, i'll wait until those show up
[02:14] <iheartubuntu> some great sale items too on shirts
[02:14] <jtatum> philipballew: shoot me an email and we'll work out the details :)
[02:14] <iheartubuntu> my meerkat shirt gets lots of comments
[02:14] <philipballew> thats what i was thinking
[02:15]  * philipballew opens gmail
[02:16] <pleia2> iheartubuntu: oh good, I might get some things too
[02:16] <pleia2> iheartubuntu: any word on a gaming night?
[02:17] <pleia2> the decal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/6274626675/
[02:17] <iheartubuntu> i havent really had time to test games. it is very difficult work you must understand :)
[02:17] <pleia2> ubuntu women one :)
[02:17] <pleia2> iheartubuntu: hehe, no problem, just curious :)
[02:17] <philipballew> iheartubuntu, if you need help testing games let me know
[02:18] <iheartubuntu> if anyone wants to work with me on game night ideas, IM me or email please.
[02:18] <iheartubuntu> i'll have some sort of plan in two weeks then.
[02:18] <pleia2> great!
[02:18] <pleia2> anything else?
[02:19] <jledbetter> game night sounds fun
[02:19] <pleia2> :)
[02:19] <seidos> hi everybody.  is there a possible intersection with ubuntu and the occupy $location movement?
[02:19]  * iheartubuntu looks for bingo in software center
[02:19] <pleia2> seidos: is this a quesetion for our meeting, or something for after?
[02:19] <akk> occupy hard drives!
[02:19] <iheartubuntu> occupy my mortgage pelase
[02:20] <seidos> pleia2: either way
[02:20] <pleia2> ok, let's wrap up then and take that to discussion after :)
[02:20] <pleia2> thanks for coming everyone!
[02:20] <jledbetter> +1
[02:20] <iheartubuntu> N - 34
[02:20] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[02:20] <jledbetter> bingo
[02:20] <iheartubuntu> haha
[02:20] <pleia2> lol
[02:20] <jledbetter> pleia2, Thanks for runnin' it
[02:21] <iheartubuntu> danke pleia2
[02:21] <philipballew> W - 6
[02:21] <pleia2> last meeting of the day \o/
[02:21] <pleia2> now I get to go build office furniture :)
[02:21] <jledbetter> fun :)
[02:21] <pleia2> it's a big 3d puzzle!
[02:21] <seidos> build office furniture...start fight club
[02:21] <iheartubuntu> W?
[02:21] <seidos> N?
[02:21] <jledbetter> philipballew, You sank my battleship!
[02:21] <iheartubuntu> O - 68
[02:22] <seidos> -68?
[02:22] <seidos> lol
[02:22] <philipballew> jledbetter, battleship! a possible game idea!!!
[02:22] <iheartubuntu> i wish GNU backgammon was multiplayer
[02:22] <jledbetter> philipballew, ;)
[02:23] <jledbetter> Actually was thinking of coding battleship with HTML5/JS/etc. It's on my list anyway after about 15 other things.
[02:23] <jledbetter> Not really Ubuntu though except I'd be developing *on* Ubuntu ;)
[02:23] <seidos> i want to work on a star wars card game
[02:24] <seidos> i was at target today and they didn't have one :(
[02:24] <akk> I want more word/math/memory games.
[02:24] <seidos> it's all stats, really
[02:24] <seidos> i want more kinesthetic games
[02:25] <seidos> maybe a hybrid kinesthetic/word/math/memory game
[02:25] <iheartubuntu> one page about ubuntu and bingo .. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=484560
[02:25] <jledbetter> akk, Doable as well
[02:25] <iheartubuntu> someone made a game, but its not running in terminal for me
[02:25] <seidos> heh, i made a black jack game
[02:26] <philipballew> akk lights out is a cool challenge game
[02:26] <seidos> i think i still have that "OS wars" game that i worked on ages ago
[02:26] <seidos> i tried to put classes into it though and it probably doesn't run anymore
[02:26]  * akk looks up lights out ... yeah, puzzle games like that are fun too
[02:27] <akk> I downloaded a couple collections of puzzle games, but, er ... it turrs out I'm not smart enough for a lot of them. :)
[02:27] <seidos> are you good at sudoku?
[02:27] <akk> I'm pretty good at the easy level of sudoku ... haven't tried the harder levels much.
[02:28] <akk> And I've been doing a lot of 5x5 calcdoku lately, but I'm not good enough to do 6x6 yet.
[02:29]  * philipballew stops procrastinating and does his homework
[02:29] <akk> and Word Drop, though it's a little frustrating because there's no doc on what the rules are, how scores are calculated.
[02:30] <seidos> i can do sudoku, but i'm not fast at it, even on easy
[02:30] <seidos> i would rather write a story
[02:30] <akk> Writing fiction is on my 2-do list and I never quite get there.
[02:31] <seidos> or read one.  i'm sure sudoku has benefits but i'm not sure what, perhaps it improves organizational capability
[02:31] <akk> I'd like to find a puzzle game like that that actually improved mental math skills.
[02:31] <iheartubuntu> im reading howard shultz book about running starbucks. very interesting
[02:31] <iheartubuntu> (so far)
[02:31] <akk> I thought calcdoku might, but the math is so simple that it doesn't much.
[02:32] <seidos> i think investigating the Universe is a great math puzzle
[02:32] <seidos> and measurement puzzle
[02:32] <iheartubuntu> trying to step up my articles on iheartubuntu
[02:33] <seidos> setting up a way to measure say the speed of a hot wheel i found challenging
[02:33] <akk> Are those games, or do you mean actually investigating the universe, like with telescope data?
[02:33] <seidos> iheartubuntu: yeah, i don't think i've seen anything on your site in awhile
[02:33] <seidos> the universe is all around you.  hot wheels are a part of it.
[02:34]  * akk is down to one blog post a week because of the darned AI/ML classes, but I'm dropping AI so maybe I'll get that back up
[02:34] <iheartubuntu> seidos... ive been doing more articles the past couple weeks.
[02:34] <iheartubuntu> trying to focus on programs right now
[02:34] <seidos> akk: i did think about seeing if i could get access to a astronomical database to build reports on it, but it didn't seem feasible
[02:34] <seidos> iheartubuntu: i just installed fedora15
[02:34] <iheartubuntu> gpodder, ailusus, glabels, etc
[02:34] <akk> Astronomers are getting a lot better about putting datasets online, though JPL programs still lag.
[02:34] <iheartubuntu> how do you like it?
[02:35] <akk> A lot of non-JPL NASA stuff is online.
[02:35] <iheartubuntu> i notice ubuntu studio has gone to xfce
[02:35] <seidos> iheartubuntu: i like it a lot
[02:35] <iheartubuntu> much different than ubuntu
[02:35] <seidos> like jim carrey would say, in dumb and dumber :P
[02:35] <iheartubuntu> ?
[02:35] <seidos> iheartubuntu: it uses gnome3, so i guess yes
[02:35] <seidos> akk: i was kind of looking for a .sql dump file that i could import into mysql
[02:36] <seidos> i dunno, that would probably be a pain.  running sql queries from a terminal is kind of old school
[02:36] <iheartubuntu> how do u like gnome3 compared to unity?
[02:36] <akk> Most astronomical datasets I've looked at, you need to parse
[02:36] <seidos> iheartubuntu: i like it better
[02:36] <akk> but they're very easy to parse, usually
[02:36] <akk> e.g. space-separated numbers
[02:36] <iheartubuntu> can you do the regular gnome2 look?
[02:36] <seidos> akk: i don't really feel like doing much of anything alone.
[02:36] <akk> Lots of programs can read space-separated columns of numbers already, without you even needing to write a parser.
[02:37] <seidos> iheartubuntu: not sure.
[02:37] <iheartubuntu> what package manager does it use
[02:37] <seidos> iheartubuntu: oh yeah, i think so.  it uses yum
[02:38] <seidos> i think i'd rather dig through a garbage can with a true friend, than sit and play $game alone
[02:38] <iheartubuntu> any program i see on the net usually has debs though
[02:38] <iheartubuntu> not yum packages
[02:38] <iheartubuntu> arent you limiting yourself?
[02:38] <seidos> i installed debian, too
[02:38] <seidos> not for what i need to do
[02:39] <seidos> iheartubuntu: i can install debian if i need it, but i haven't found a need to switch
[02:39] <akk> I still see RPMs pretty often (which is what you'd use on fedora).
[02:39] <seidos> yeah, chrome has an rpm
[02:39] <iheartubuntu> if it didnt have rpm, how would u install? compiling?
[02:40] <iheartubuntu> wunderlist for example.
[02:40] <seidos> if i didn't have a .deb how would i install?  compiling?
[02:40] <eps> Don't you miss the good old days of  ./configure;make;make install ?
[02:41] <akk> What's to miss? I still do that pretty often.
[02:41] <seidos> i do it somewhat, and 99% of the time it doesn't compile
[02:42] <seidos> it must be because i'm not a card carrying computer scientist
[02:42] <iheartubuntu> i have never had much luck compliling
[02:43] <iheartubuntu> there are always errors
[02:43] <seidos> there's always some dependency missing or out of date
[02:43] <akk> It does help to have a lot of development libraries installed on your system already (I'm guessing that's what you're hitting)
[02:43] <akk> and to have some experience interpreting obscure build errors.
[02:43] <seidos> i think it's an issue with knowing where to get the dependencies, the build errors are pretty clear
[02:43] <akk> I'm kind of surprised how bad configure is about failing to detect missing prerequisites, considering what a huge bloated hard-to-use mess it is.
[02:43] <iheartubuntu> i did compile something recently. and only becuase the instructions clearly pointed out the exact dependencies i would need
[02:44] <seidos> i don't get why configure make and make install are necessary
[02:44] <seidos> and why gcc isn't used
[02:44] <seidos> i've never compiled a multi file program before with gcc though
[02:45] <seidos> i mean, without configure, make, make install
[02:45] <seidos> i assume gcc is called in there somewhere
[02:45] <akk> gcc is called during make
[02:45] <seidos> makes sense
[02:45] <seidos> not cents though :P
[02:45] <akk> The configure step is to figure out missing dependencies (obv. it's not very good at that) and to figure out what kind of system you're on
[02:46] <akk> e.g. if you're on a mac or a sun or something, some things may need to be compiled differently.
[02:46] <seidos> i remember someone saying they wanted to take ./configure and make it just do uname -a or something
[02:46] <seidos> yeah, what kernel is being used
[02:46] <akk> I actually don't use configure for my C programs -- I have a couple of much simpler scripts inside the makefile to figure out where to find the gtk libraries.
[02:47] <akk> But on a bigger, more complex program there are too many things you need to adjust.
[02:47] <seidos> i'm using 2.6.38.6-26.rc1
[02:47] <akk> Very few programs care what kernel is running -- unless you're building a kernel driver.
[02:47] <seidos> i would think that would be necessary information
[02:48] <akk> Not at all.
[02:48] <akk> Consider: you can take your ubuntu system and upgrade to a different kernel
[02:48] <akk> but all the existing software doesn't stop working and need to be recompiled.
[02:48] <seidos> i did that once, and vbox stopped working
[02:48] <akk> The kernel only handles low-level stuff, like, if you call read(), how does that file handle get mapped to a disk device and how do you get bits from the disk device.
[02:49] <seidos> so i guess it's one of the programs that cares
[02:49] <akk> virtualbox is one of the few programs that does care
[02:49] <seidos> i would think the compiler would care what kernel is being used
[02:49] <akk> but it only cares because part of vbox is a kernel module, so it needs to get a new module for each new kernel you use
[02:49] <akk> (I'm not entirely clear on why it needs a kernel module, but that's how they wanted to implement things)
[02:50] <akk> Why would the compiler care?
[02:50] <seidos> it may be luck of the draw, what about compiling a program on a much older kernel, then trying to run it on the newer kernel, or vice versa
[02:50] <akk> The compiler's job is to read lots of text (C programs and headers) and translate that into machine code.
[02:50] <akk> So it needs to know what processor it's on, so it can generate the machine code.
[02:51] <akk> But it relies on system calls to do kernel-level things like read from disk.
[02:51] <seidos> it's not possible to isolate the library issue to say for sure
[02:51] <akk> Usually the problems you'll see with a much older kernel are that some libraries won't work, not that higher level programs won't compile.
[02:51] <seidos> at least not to my satisfaction
[02:52] <akk> E.g. if you have a program that uses the udev library, and you try to run it on a system so old that there is no udev
[02:52] <akk> then depending on how well the udev library is written, it may fail gracefully or it may dump core.
[02:54] <seidos> is this computer science 201?
[02:54] <seidos> or are we talking upper division stuff?
[02:54] <akk> I wouldn't know, I never majored in computer science and they didn't let nonmajors take those courses.
[02:54] <seidos> so what about the AI courses you're taking?
[02:55] <akk> That actually is a CS course. And actually I took one other one, way back as a freshman.
[02:56] <akk> (though I'm taking ML, not AI)
[02:56] <seidos> ML?
[02:56] <akk> machine learning
[02:56] <seidos> so you're taking CS courses now?
[02:57] <seidos> that's interesting, i should probably take some course, but i've been super busy lately
[02:57] <akk> I'm taking the free online stanford cs course, yes.
[02:57] <eps> Link please
[02:57] <akk> ml-class.org (and also ai-class.com and, I think, db-class.org)
[03:01] <seidos> i need to find a decent group of people to work with though, i'm not sure i could find that online
[03:02] <seidos> i think that's one of the issues with occupy $location, when i think about it, it's pretty hard to find out where to meet ppl
[03:02] <seidos> especially without cents
[03:02] <eps> "there's an app for that"
[03:02] <akk> The nice thing about the stanford online classes is that there are like 60,000 people taking them (worldwide)
[03:02] <seidos> i have considered navigating through los angeles' religious community
[03:02] <akk> so it's pretty easy to find groups who want to discuss it
[03:02] <seidos> in person akk?
[03:03] <akk> There are a bunch of in-person groups around CA, though I haven't been to one yet.
[03:03] <akk> (There was a get-together today but I went hiking instead)
[03:03] <seidos> that sounds cool.  i wonder if usc has something like that for so cal
[03:03] <akk> Nobody has anything like that, afaik. Stanford is the first to try it.
[03:04] <akk> Lots of unis have lecture videos, but all you can do is watch them on your own, there's no schedule or homework or community.
[03:04] <seidos> well, it's all pretty obscure.  i just found out Stanford had it
[03:04] <akk> It was all over slashdot and the rest of the tech press when they were announced, a couple months ago.
[03:04] <seidos> that's odd, i follow slashdot's tweets
[03:05] <seidos> don't recall seeing it, but if i had, i probably wouldn't have given it much attention
[03:05] <seidos> i pretty much assume a lack of community, and Stanford is far from me
[03:06] <akk> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/08/04/1646210/stanford-intro-to-ai-course-offered-free-online and http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/09/06/134236/stanford-ai-class-beta-for-commercial-launch
[03:06] <akk> It's not oriented around stanford at all.
[03:06] <akk> I'm close to stanford, but this is an online thing -- they're not inviting us plebes to show up in the lecture hall. :)
[03:06] <seidos> and where are the local meetings held?
[03:07] <seidos> or where would they be held?
[03:07] <akk> I couldn't tell you where they are in your area. Around here, there's a group at hacker dojo, one or two in SF, I think one in Belmont or somewhere like that, one in Santa Cruz
[03:07] <akk> and some people trying to get together in the east bay but I'm not sure if that's happened
[03:09] <seidos> is there a book?
[03:09] <akk> And nearly every tech group I'm a member of has had people asking "anybody here taking the classes and want to form a study group?"
[03:09] <seidos> i have found tech groups around here aren't really for me, at least not yet, anyway
[03:09] <akk> including this channel -- gua was talking here on Sep 20 about setting up a google group to discuss in-person meetups in california (and did, it's http://groups.google.com/group/ai-ml-db-classes-ca)
[03:10] <akk> The AI class has a book. ML doesn't, and I know nothing about DB.
[03:11] <seidos> i should probably see if UCLA has something.  i was looking at Terrence Tao's site.  i noticed there is not book, all the information is online
[03:11] <akk> If they do, tell me about it, because I've never heard of anyone doing this besides Stanford.
[03:12] <akk> I'm hoping the experiment is successful and it leads to a whole slew of free or cheap online classes.
[03:13] <seidos> i've actually considered crashing the local community colleges here
[03:13] <akk> community colleges are awesome -- I've taken a lot of classes there
[03:13] <seidos> i mean, every community college should have a "community space" as far as i'm concerned
[03:14] <akk> but the problem is they're all beginner classes, you can't take anything that's advanced
[03:14] <seidos> i've taken a few
[03:14] <seidos> yeah, that is an issue for me
[03:14] <akk> That's why I'm so jazzed about the stanford classes -- they're upper division, with prerequisites and math and everything.
[03:15] <seidos> too bad they lock down their wifi networks, it should be possible to get on their network as a visitor, or a member of the community
[03:15] <akk> Whose network -- community colleges?
[03:15] <seidos> i haven't checked west la or santa monica's networks yet
[03:16] <seidos> yeah
[03:16] <eps> A lot of universities let you "audit" classes (if there's space available). And don't underestimate the value of watching online videos, e.g. http://webcast.berkeley.edu/
[03:16] <seidos> i mean, go to the community college with notebook, take ai course from stanford while sitting at cc's library
[03:16] <akk> At SJCC, there are handouts in the library with the password to the wifi.
[03:16] <akk> But it's probably easier to go to a public library if all you need is net access.
[03:16] <seidos> i should check out west la when i have time
[03:17] <seidos> no, what i need is community
[03:17] <seidos> it's hard to make friends when you can't really talk
[03:17] <akk> Ah, IC. I'm not too good at striking up friendships with random people who just happen to be sitting nearby. <- nerd
[03:17] <seidos> i guess that would still be a problem at a community college as well
[03:18] <seidos> maybe the student union then
[03:18] <seidos> i never said anything about being good at it, but i have been known to try from time to time
[03:19] <akk> For me it would work better to check the mailing lists for nearby meetups, then go talk to people who are already taking the same class.
[03:20] <seidos> actually, that reminds me of this "green" thing, but they wanted a $20 donation
[03:20] <seidos> i guess i'm just trying to fast track connecting with who i'm supposed to be connected with, locally
[03:20] <seidos> at Crashspace, without a membership it is pointless going
[03:22] <seidos> so that's out.  all that's really left are community colleges and religious organizations
[03:37] <seidos> i should try to figure out why aquaman's hair stays so plush despite how frequently it is wet.  peace.
[08:14]  * bkerensa yawns and passes out
[13:38] <YendisLorem> Greetings ... was just hoping for any input on getting 11.10 back to a 10.04 GUI.  Can't stand Unity
[15:32] <Darkwing> jono ping
[15:32] <jono> hey Darkwing
[15:32] <Darkwing> Hey Jono, do you have any XL Severed Fifth T-Shirts?
[15:33] <jono> Darkwing, I think we are out now
[15:33] <jono> sorry, pal
[15:34] <Darkwing> Bugger. Okay. :) I'll see you on Sunday.
[15:36] <Darkwing> I get to Orlando at 17:15
[16:20] <iheartubuntu> hi all. is there any way i can monitor which IP address at my work is downloading the most data? i have access to the dsl modem and the wifi router.
[16:24] <nhaines> Depending on what you mean by "monitor", "downloading," and what the wifi router is running, then yes.  Although most business-class access points should have something built in I would imagine.
[16:24] <bkerensa> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ln21o/uefi_headaches_begin_for_linux_users/
[16:25] <bkerensa> apparently quite a few Ubuntu users have run into issues with UEFI already
[16:26] <iheartubuntu> its my fam biz. im suspecting one of our workers is downloading movies (netflix?) and i want to find out which IP it is. i havent been in the router page for a long time, but i know i can see which computers are connected to it. not sure what else data i can get
[16:27] <nhaines> Neither am I.  You'd have to give the router model and firmware revision before anyone could attempt to answer that.
[16:27] <bkerensa> iheartubuntu: Depends on the model of routers and what firmware it is running
[16:27] <bkerensa> ^
[16:27] <nhaines> bkerensa: high five!
[16:27] <iheartubuntu> i'd love to be able to see which IP is downloading the most content and or which sites were visited in the last few hours
[16:28] <akk> I don't think most consumer routers let you get that sort of info. But if you stuck a linux machine in there acting as a router, you could probably see a lot more.
[16:28] <bkerensa> Well depending on the model some routers support it out of box
[16:28] <nhaines> akk: with Tomato I can get some pretty good stats.  :)  But not per-device, I don't think.
[16:28] <bkerensa> otherwise if your router can support a alt firmware that works too
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> its a netgear wifi. i have workers allowed to do wifi and family members i have hard wired in
[16:28]  * bkerensa likes DD WRT
[16:28] <bkerensa> :)
[16:28] <bkerensa> some like Tomato or OpenWRT
[16:28] <bkerensa> :D
[16:28]  * nhaines refuses to use DD-WRT.
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> and its a pretty old router
[16:29] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: okay, well, if you can provide the information we asked for, maybe we can help out.
[16:29] <bkerensa> :D
[16:30] <nhaines> bkerensa: DD-WRT is powerful, but the way they're breaking the GPL to make their product is reprehensible.  So I go without.
[16:30] <akk> We have a consumer linksys, and it does give any stats -- you can't even get the total amount downloaded (like if you're curious if you're near quota).
[16:30] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: incidentally, what is the problem being caused by excessive downloading?
[16:31] <nhaines> akk: yeah, my Linksys WRT-54G v2 rocks with Tomato.  Not so much with the default firmware.  :)
[16:31] <iheartubuntu> the internet is dog slow now for everyone
[16:31] <akk> Yeah, we use tomato at work (running on a linux box, not a consumer router).
[16:31] <bkerensa> ;)
[16:31] <bkerensa> need some QoS
[16:31] <iheartubuntu> ok, its a linksys WRT54G@ v1.5
[16:32] <iheartubuntu> WRT54G2
[16:32] <iheartubuntu> what is tomato? a firmware patch?>
[16:32] <nhaines> It's a firmware.
[16:33] <nhaines> bkerensa: every time I turn on QoS it breaks everything.
[16:33] <bkerensa> WRT54G is excellent with WRT54G in fact they are made to work together nice
[16:33] <bkerensa> and trample the GPL at the same time
[16:33] <bkerensa> :D
[16:33] <bkerensa> nhaines: Yeah I dont use QoS at all but it works for some people
[16:33] <iheartubuntu> can tomato be installed from a linux box?
[16:33] <akk> bkerensa: I'm still trying to figure out, from reading the article and the reddit comments, what actually happened, what the error was.
[16:34] <bkerensa> ?
[16:34] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: yes?
[16:34] <bkerensa> oh
[16:34] <akk> It would be useful for people to know what happens, how to tell if it happens to them, etc. ... and that might help in letting other people help find a solution.
[16:34] <bkerensa> akk: They couldnt install Ubuntu
[16:34] <akk> bkerensa: "couldn't install" covers about 10,000 different possibilities.
[16:34] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: why don't you just go look at everyone's screen when the Internet gets slow?
[16:34] <nhaines> !work bkerensa
[16:34] <Eureka> Factoid work bkerensa not found
[16:34] <nhaines> boo
[16:34]  * bkerensa will ask James and see what the exact error was but it was related to UEFI/GPT
[16:35] <nhaines> !work > bkerensa
[16:35] <Eureka> bkerensa, please see my private message
[16:35] <nhaines> Maybe I should've used a pipe.
[16:35] <nhaines> !work | bkerensa
[16:35] <Eureka> bkerensa: Doesn't work is a strong statement. Does it sit on the couch all day? Does it want more money? Is it on IRC all the time? Please be specific! Examples of what doesn't work tend to help too.
[16:35] <iheartubuntu> nhaines - ive done that. i would like some statistical proof i can print out as well
[16:35] <nhaines> yay
[16:35]  * nhaines has a favorite factoid, if nobody noticed.
[16:36] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: that's different than what you originally asked.
[16:36] <akk> nhaines: It's a good factoid :)
[16:36] <iheartubuntu> maybe i can print something out or take screenshots of the data
[16:38] <akk> iheartubuntu: Set up cron jobs (or equivalents on other OSes) to take screenshots every 5 min. :)
[16:38] <akk> Or a cron job that looks at open network links every 5 min.
[16:40] <bkerensa> Better idea is to get a cheap box
[16:40] <bkerensa> install IPCop on it
[16:40] <bkerensa> and route traffic through it
[16:40] <bkerensa> do some traffic shaping :D
[16:41] <nhaines> I don't understand.  Are you trying to figure out who is slowing down the network or are you trying to fix the bandwidth problem or do you already know and are you trying to build a case to fire them?
[16:41] <iheartubuntu> yes :)
[16:41] <iheartubuntu> i suspect who it is
[16:42] <iheartubuntu> so the data will be helpful
[16:42] <bkerensa> reserve them a static ip and then port block them except for 80
[16:42] <bkerensa> ;)
[16:42] <iheartubuntu> asking them not to do netflix worked the first couple times.
[16:42] <bkerensa> then QoS their MAC to lowest priority
[16:42] <bkerensa> :D
[16:42] <iheartubuntu> as a start im probably just going to block netflix
[16:43] <iheartubuntu> but would like to get the data i need first
[16:43] <iheartubuntu> do all routers have qos?
[16:43] <iheartubuntu> good idea thanks
[16:43] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: only $400+ business routers.
[16:43] <iheartubuntu> dang
[16:44] <nhaines> This reminds me why I want to start up consulting again.
[16:44] <nhaines> I'd have already sold you a new router with Tomato on it.  :P
[16:45] <akk> Download one copy of Mary Poppins, then hack the router so that when his IP requests any movie, he gets another copy of MP.
[16:45] <nhaines> akk: feed the birds?
[16:48] <iheartubuntu> thanks everyone. i have a few directions i can try now
[17:32] <kdub> sorry for missing that america's membership board meeting :-/, was in rural ohio
[17:36] <pleia2> kdub: there is always next month :) we were just concerned because you seemed eager the day before to get testimonials in for the meeting
[17:36] <kdub> yeah, i was, but i had no internet access at the time of the meeting
[17:37] <kdub> next month
[17:48]  * bkerensa should start an WISP in Rural Ohio
[17:48] <bkerensa> :D
[17:50] <nhaines> Between, SCaLE, Ubucon, some other stuff I want to work on, and NaNoWriMo, the next 4 months are kind of shot.  :P
[17:58] <kdub> whats a wisp?
[18:00] <BotenAnna> so um my ubuntu theme spontaneously changed to a white theme
[18:00] <BotenAnna> wtf
[18:11] <nhaines> BotenAnna: your video card hates textures.
[18:14] <BotenAnna> possibly, but i'm on gnome classic
[18:15] <nhaines> Mutter hates textures?
[18:16] <BotenAnna> whats a mutter
[18:18] <nhaines> Nothing, what's the mutter with you?
[18:20] <BotenAnna> HA!
[18:20] <BotenAnna> anyway logging out and logging back in fixed it
[18:20] <BotenAnna> but that seems like such a Windows solution to the problem. I wonder what happened.
[18:50] <bkerensa> kdub: Wireless ISP
[18:50] <bkerensa> :)
[18:50] <kdub> ah, ok
[18:53] <nhaines> BotenAnna: do you have stairs in your house?
[19:03] <BotenAnna> just small ones going down in to the back room :V .....:V
[20:24] <BotenAnna> 16:43 < iheartubuntu> do all routers have qos?
[20:24] <BotenAnna> 16:43 < nhaines> iheartubuntu: only $400+ business routers.
[20:24] <BotenAnna> to be fair this is technically wrong but SPOILER ALERT: sub $100 routers with QoS suck
[20:24] <BotenAnna> I got a Linksys/Cisco E3000 and put Tomato USB on it and couldn't be happier
[20:26] <nhaines> BotenAnna: I have a friend who needs a new router and is very okay with the idea of one runnign Linux.  I wasn't sure if the E3000 could run Tomato.  So cool.
[20:26] <BotenAnna> I'm really loving mine. Only downsides is no external antenna (but decent range anyway) and that it can get quite hot under heavy use
[20:27] <BotenAnna> hence why as you may have noticed mine has its own little spot on the desk with some space around it
[20:27] <BotenAnna> i kind of want to mount it on the wall but that's effort
[20:27] <nhaines> BotenAnna: also iheartubuntu refused to provide a router make/model and firmware revision, so my general advice stands.  :P
[20:27] <nhaines> Also, find a stud.  Don't be lazy!
[20:28] <BotenAnna> i guess evan is kind of a stud. other than that, 3 girls so.....
[20:28] <nhaines> Bonus also: Also http://xkcd.com/952/
[20:29] <BotenAnna> id really have to get the opinion of a straight girl or gay guy (or bi/pan anyone) on whether or not evan is a stud tho :V
[20:30] <nhaines> I'm none of those, and my opinion is he's all right.  :P
[20:30] <BotenAnna> stud has such a sexual connotation though!
[20:30] <nhaines> Eh.  :)
[20:30] <BotenAnna> i guess he's kind of dating someone now? h
[20:30] <BotenAnna> maybe i should ask her, ha
[20:31] <nhaines> She might be biased.  Also: Ubuntus.
[20:31] <nhaines> 5-year desktop support for precise is pretty nice.
[20:32] <nhaines> It's going to make my presentations a *lot* easier this year.
[20:32] <BotenAnna> oh yeah you asked about that
[20:32] <BotenAnna> idk much about it but sounds cool!
[20:32] <BotenAnna> guess my vps will run that for 5 years, ha
[20:32] <BotenAnna> is the next lts going to be 5 years off?
[20:32] <nhaines> 2 years, as always.
[20:33] <nhaines> Previously, desktop support was only 3 years and server support was 5 years.
[20:33] <BotenAnna> ah so it's just the desktop support getting bumped up?
[20:33] <BotenAnna> just hope they can cash the check they're writing and slam out a good version of unity :)
[20:33] <nhaines> So with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, it's new hardware support for 2 years, and maintenance updates for 5 years, for both server and desktop stuff.
[20:34] <nhaines> BotenAnna: Unity 4.22 is pretty nice.
[20:34] <BotenAnna> i will be stoked if they release something wherein unity doesnt crap its pants and offer no real recourse when you have two differently-sized monitors (and an nvidia card)
[20:35] <BotenAnna> as that is A Problem i continuously run into
[20:36] <BotenAnna> omg this is the best question http://askubuntu.com/questions/71634/security-exploits-affecting-login
[20:36] <BotenAnna> wait I thought they were upset that they got a login prompt at ctrl+alt+f4
[20:37] <nhaines> Nothing like clicking buttons.  :)
[20:37] <BotenAnna> either this is an old, old bug or they are doing something really dumb
[20:37] <BotenAnna> 1) they're using 10.04
[20:37] <akk> A login prompt on the alternate consoles will still need a password.
[20:37] <BotenAnna> well what they're saying is that they are switching user and then if they drop to console and come back they're logged back in
[20:38] <nhaines> BotenAnna: they're not logging out, they're using Switch User.
[20:38] <nhaines> He doesn't realize he's on VT8 at that point.  He could just go straight to VT7 and get his desktop.
[20:38] <nhaines> So he needs to set a password and/or enable screen locking on screen saver.
[20:38] <BotenAnna> oh hey
[20:38] <BotenAnna> it still does this on 11.10
[20:39] <BotenAnna> and yeah I'm writing an answer to that effect
[20:39] <nhaines> It's supposed to.
[20:39] <nhaines> NOTABUG WONTFIX
[20:39] <nhaines> Switch User != logout.  It means "don't log out but let someone else use the computer."
[20:40] <akk> It is sort of surprising that both accounts would be usable without password at the same time.
[20:40] <BotenAnna> yeah that seems odd
[20:40] <nhaines> Ubuntu traditionally locks the screen using gnome-screensaver
[20:41] <akk> yeah, it's quite difficult to make it *not* prompt for a password.
[20:44] <BotenAnna> help i want to learn erlang but its hard
[20:44] <BotenAnna> i have to like, think differently
[20:50] <BotenAnna> I can't use "lock screen" because it aventualy freeze by desktop, & the only release is the "reset" button. – Goldy 15 secs ago
[20:51] <akk> I used to get lots of freezes from screensavers, with a machine that had DRI problems (a lot of screensavers are 3-D).
[21:14] <BotenAnna> i am not updating past 10.04 until there is a SERIOUS update, all they did was add a thing! yet i am very upset that lock screen locks up my computer!
[21:14] <BotenAnna> lol that guy
[21:14] <BotenAnna> well, whatever
[21:14] <nhaines> heh
[21:14] <nhaines> Yeah, I've had a few systems die on 3D screensavers.
[21:15] <nhaines> Well, GNOME3 fixed that problem!  :V
[21:15] <kdub> linux display needs an overhaul...
[21:15] <BotenAnna> last time someone said that about sound
[21:15] <BotenAnna> and it um
[21:15] <BotenAnna> didn't end well
[21:16] <BotenAnna> be careful!
[21:16] <nhaines> haha
[21:16] <nhaines> Wayland!
[21:16] <nhaines> There's nothing wrong with PulseAudio anyway.  It just turns out that ALSA was buggy and nobody knew.
[21:16] <BotenAnna> hey dawg i heard you liked virtual audio drivers on top of your virtual audio drivers, so i put a virtual audio driver inside your virtual audio driver so you could virtual audio driver WHILE YOU VIRTUAL AUDIO DRIVER
[21:17] <nhaines> BotenAnna: Oh, did you hear about Linux 3.1?  You can run nested virtual machines now.
[21:17] <BotenAnna> *cue me having to do some weird terminal command (alsamixer I think... so intuitive!) to have to bump up sound volume above 1% to be able to hear anything. don't ask how long it took me to find this.)
[21:17] <nhaines> Also it natively supports the Wii remote.  <3
[21:17] <BotenAnna> haha
[21:18] <BotenAnna> waggle your funroll loops
[21:18] <nhaines> TRANSLTION: if Ubuntu 12.04 LTS ships with Linux 3.1, I've found a new magic presentation machine.
[21:18] <BotenAnna> for fun mode, install andf ully configure gentoo using only a wii remote
[21:19] <BotenAnna> or arch or lfs
[21:19] <nhaines> Can you type 'sudo apt-get instal gentoo' with the Wii remote?
[21:19] <BotenAnna> of course you can
[21:20] <BotenAnna> spoiler: might not satisfy requirements of completing challenge
[21:20] <BotenAnna> oh hey there is a package called gentoo
[21:20] <BotenAnna> idk what it does, hopefully nothing bad because i installed it rofl
[21:21] <nhaines> That's the spirit!
[21:22] <BotenAnna> OH GOD WHY AM I FUNROLLING LOOPS AND HAND-EDITING XORG.CONF
[21:22] <BotenAnna> last time I tried to use gentoo the installer was completely broken and had been for a while
[21:22] <BotenAnna> wonder if they've bothered to fix that yet
[21:22] <nhaines> BotenAnna: I think that's all part of the test.
[21:39] <akk> The installer is traditionally the hardest part of gentoo.
[21:47] <akk> Wish I could figure out why my linux systems keep losing track of mounted vfat partitions (e.g. "umount:  /mp3 mount disagrees with the fstab"
[21:48] <akk> I'm starting to think recent kernels have a bug in the vfat code.
[21:48] <nhaines> akk: NTFS might be a better bet.
[21:48] <akk> It's not for a windows partition, it's for things like mp3 players, camera cards, my android tablet.
[21:49] <akk> Happens every couple weeks with the android thingie, but I just saw it on an mp3 player too.
[21:49] <nhaines> Does vfat do FAT32 file systems as well?
[21:49] <akk> I'm not sure ... figure it's usually better to be conservative when dealing with random devices.
[21:50] <akk> Though I've been thinking about reformatting the android one to ext3 or ext4 and seeing if it gets any more reliable.
[21:51] <nhaines> android can handle ext3 and 4.  Not sure about NTFS.
[21:51] <akk> I can't imagine why I'd want to use ntfs for anything. Isn't the support for it still pretty ragged on linux?
[21:52] <akk> Any idea if android 1.6 can handle ext4? (I'll probably just try it and see ... as soon as I figure out where I put my extra microsd card.)
[21:53] <nhaines> akk: NTFS support has been stellar for years and years.
[21:53] <nhaines> Uh, I think 1.6 ought to be able to handle ext4.
[21:53] <nhaines> It's been a while, though.
[22:00] <akk> argh, it happened again -- all my copies came up "permission denied".
[22:00] <akk> after the first I/O error
[22:01]  * akk tries fsck.vfat -- that's the only thing that helps on the android device
[22:02] <akk> and btw, it's so annoying that fsck.vfat by default looks like it's making changes, but doesn't
[22:03] <akk> "there are differences between boot sector and its backup" ... any idea if it's better to copy backup to original or original to backup? I'm guessing the former.
[22:11] <nhaines> Hm, no way to tell I think, without examining it.
[22:12] <akk> I ended up going for the latter because it was the first choice, so I thought maybe it was sort of default-ish.
[22:24] <akk> Turns out this isn't specific to vfat. Maybe it's a problem with writing to disks over USB.
[22:25] <akk> Everything will be going fine, then suddenly, umpteen lines of "Read-only file system" errors.
[22:28] <nhaines> Oh?  Hm...
[22:30] <akk> end_request: I/O error, dev sdh, sector 265641 ... JBD2: I/O error detected when updating journal superblock for sdh1-8. ... Remounting filesystem read-only
[22:31] <akk> this is a filesystem I just mkfs'ed five minutes earlier.
[22:31] <akk> On a brand-new microsd card, never used.
[22:31] <nhaines> akk: could it be a bad USB port?
[22:31] <akk> I've seen similar behavior on both laptop and desktop, on both natty and debian squeeze.
[22:31] <jtatum> akk: you didn't happen to buy the card on ebay, did you?
[22:31] <akk> (though on squeeze it's always been with the android device)
[22:31] <akk> no, microcenter
[22:32] <jtatum> ah. i asked because there's a bunch of fraud in flash media on the ebay
[22:32] <akk> fraud?
[22:33] <jtatum> yeah, you can put a larger capacity sticker on a small flash and update the firmware to make it appear [arbitrary size]
[22:33] <akk> hmm, interesting
[22:33] <akk> and I just remembered, I got a bad usb stick from microcenter a while back
[22:33] <akk> I wonder if they're selling crappy (or fradulent) flash?
[22:33] <nhaines> akk: not on purpose.
[22:33] <akk> Wish I'd kept the packaging for this so I could return it.
[22:34] <Faqtotum> SD is a very proprietary format, and if you write even one bit outside the pre-formated FAT fs, it goes wonkers
[22:35] <Faqtotum> only the toshiba-panasonic utility for windoze can restore
[22:35] <jtatum> these are modified to happily write to (0..actual capacity) and return no errors for (actual capacity+1..n). so if you do a quick test, they appear fine. longer tests, they also appear fine until you try to read the data ;)
[22:35] <nhaines> Faqtotum: I reformat SD cards all the time.  :P
[22:36] <akk> Is there a way to avoid hitting this? I'm obviously doing something that encourages errors, since I'm seeing them more and more often.
[22:37] <akk> (Though the mp3 player problem wasn't an SD card, it's a standalone player with its own flash.)
[22:38] <akk> Some way to put the linux drivers in "don't overwrite the magic endpoint" mode?
[22:40] <jtatum> fdisk i'd suppose. this tool might help: http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/
[22:43] <nhaines> akk: if your partition table seems within the advertised bounds, you should be fine.
[22:45] <jtatum> yes, since it's probably not a fake flash. but just to clarify on these counterfeit ones, the partition table is within the advertised bounds (way too large for the actual media)
[22:47] <akk> I tried that f3write tool -- and it failed on the first attempt to write a file, went read-only immediately.
[22:47] <akk> (this is after a new mkfs.vfat)
[22:47] <akk> partition table as in /proc/partitions ?
[22:47] <akk> (or gparted or whatever)
[22:49] <akk> It's supposed to be 2g and /proc/partitions says 1955840, so I guess that's okay.
[22:56] <akk> ... and now /proc/partitions thinks I have a /dev/sdf connected that I don't actually have. I'm gonna reboot.
[22:58] <nhaines> akk: how's that?
[22:58] <akk> sdf is gone now, anyway
[22:59] <akk> Now I'm going to try, in a different SD reader, mkfs.ext3 and copying stuff, and see if that works any better.
[23:03] <akk> Nope, switched to read-only again.
[23:04] <akk> dmesg: "sd 5:0:0:0: rejecting I/O to offline device"
[23:04] <nhaines> Different computer?
[23:04] <akk> Same computer.
[23:05] <nhaines> no, I mean, might want to try a different computer.
[23:05] <akk> I love how there's no user-visible error, it'll just happily going on trying and filling up dmesg forever.
[23:05] <akk> I've gotten similar errors on my laptop too.
[23:05] <akk> (with the microsd in the android)
[23:05] <akk> but I could try it now, easily enough
[23:05] <nhaines> Then try a different OS--it might be either Linux or the card itself.
[23:08] <akk> It's so weird there's no good way to test these cards. Especially if it's that common that they're flaky or fraudulent.
[23:09] <nhaines> akk: it's not that common.
[23:10] <akk> I see the problem about once every two weeks in the card in the android device, but until now i'd been blaming it on an android 1.6 bug.
[23:11] <akk> (the archos is pretty flaky in general, so why not in its vfat writing?)
[23:11] <nhaines> Sounds good to me.
[23:12] <akk> This is not my day. The laptop started up X with no mouse control (fortunately, I can probably do all this in just the one xterm window).
[23:16] <akk> Interesting -- I managed to 329M to the card, far more than I've managed before.
[23:17] <akk> Though with an ext3 filesystem, the android says "Damanged SD card. You may have to format it."
[23:17] <nhaines> Hmm.
[23:35]  * akk goes back to the old vfat card and goes to dinner
[23:39] <nhaines> dinner!  \o/