/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/30/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== noy_ is now known as noy
=== head_v is now known as head_victim
=== Mkaysi|ZNC is now known as Mkaysi
=== Mkaysi|ZNC is now known as Mkaysi
pangolin30 minutes until IRC team meeting?17:23
iopangolin: 717:49
jussio/18:00
nhandlero/18:01
Tm_To718:01
jussioh we have nhandler! excellent!18:01
jussinhandler: since you are here, I'd say its about your turn to chair, wouldnt you agree?18:02
pangolino/18:02
topylio/18:02
topylihi nhandler :)18:03
ryanakcao/18:03
pangolinhello everybody!18:03
nhandlerjussi: I can chair, but it will take me a while to get to the post-meeting stuff18:03
* pangolin hugs nhandler 18:03
pangolingood to see you dude :)18:03
jussinhandler: no probs, as long as its within about a week we should be good18:03
topylinhandler: that's fine18:03
jussinhandler: so, shall we get this show on the road ?18:05
nhandler#startmeeting Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting18:05
meetingologyMeeting started Sun Oct 30 18:05:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is nhandler. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.18:05
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired18:05
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
nhandler#topic Review Bugs18:05
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs
jussiRight, so we have a new bug18:05
jussibug 88311918:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 883119 in ubuntu-community "Issues needlessly in the IRC Council's private issue tracker" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/88311918:06
topyliit's an effort to open up stuff and empower the team more18:06
nhandlerMy one concern would be that we will end up with long discussions for each task (sort of like the ML), making it harder to get stuff done18:07
Seeker`nhandler: surely you want input from people though?18:07
topyliit does require us to decide at some point that we have enough information and make a decision18:08
nhandlerSeeker`: Input to an extent it good and constructive. However, it sometimes reaches the point of two many people trying to weigh in on an issue, making it hard to take any action18:08
pangolinThe bug report says the point is to be more open. I would think that means more input as well.18:09
Seeker`nhandler: so having no input from the community, and no way of anyone outside the IRCC tracking progress on any IRCC issues is better?18:09
jussiyes, I think it encourages us to be decisive. However it also requires the community to play their part and accept the decisions that get made.18:09
Seeker`because in the past, when there hasn't been a public way of seeing that things are being done, the IRCC just sits on issues for 9 months18:10
nhandlerSeeker`: There is a difference (and should be) between a bug for tracking a task and an open discussion for gathering feedback. We don't want the two to become too merged18:10
topyliwhen we discussed our need for an issue tracker originally, we opted against using launchpad just because some issues are sensitive. we now have our own tracker where the sensitive issues can be handled, so we could use launchpad for all the rest really18:10
Seeker`nhandler: why spread the information out futher than it needs to be?18:10
topylinhandler: true, not everything is suitable to be handled as a bug18:11
Seeker`you could have a mailing list thread and a bug for each issue, but there isn't a particularly good for having two unrelated streams of conversation about the same topic, when the information about progress of the bug is mainly given through status changes, and discussion done though commenting18:12
Seeker`*particularly good reason18:12
topyliSeeker`: each lauchpad bug is automatically a "mailing list thread" for interested people already18:12
Seeker`topyli: I mean the comments section of the bug is fine for discussing the bug, why make a seperated only-related-by-name thread for discussion on the mailing list18:13
topylithere is a rationale for that too. archives are better in one place18:14
Seeker`which seemed to be what nhandler was saying18:14
topylibut still...18:14
jussiIn any case, I think at least some of the bugs - many of the items that got sent to the ircc ML previously could have been bugs.18:15
jussi(on LP)18:15
ikoniacan you give an example of a bug ?18:15
ikonia(or what would be used as a bug)18:15
jussiikonia: No policy for shell providers in #ubuntu18:15
jussifor example18:15
ikoniaso you're treating it as issues/action items18:16
ikoniajust trying to fully differentiate the using the word bug18:16
topyliikonia: pretty much. bug is just a word18:16
ikoniatotally18:16
ikoniajust checking that18:16
ikoniaif you meant "bugs" or "the word bug"18:16
nhandlerYes. (Which is in a sense hwhat most items discussed in meetings and on the ML are)18:17
nhandlerSo it looks like we tend to agree that using LP is fine for most of the tasks. We just aren't quite sure on the full details18:18
Tm_T+1 from me too about using LP for the tasks/issues18:18
pangolin+118:18
topylii'd use the launchpad bug i created to test if making decisions that way works. meta! :)18:18
nhandlerIt might be useful to trial this with a bug or two and sort out the details based on a bit of trial/error18:18
topylinhandler: agreed18:19
jussinhandler: yeah, trial and error through this one.18:19
nhandler#agree Perform some trial/error of using LP to track some tasks to determine the details of how this will work18:20
jussinhandler: +d18:20
nhandlerHmm...Wiki says #agree is an alias ;)18:20
nhandler#agreed Perform some trial/error of using LP to track some tasks to determine the details of how this will work18:20
topyliwe can move an issue or two more there for testing when something suitable comes along18:20
pangolinthe bot is not super verbose18:21
nhandler+1 topyli18:21
pangolinyou might not see anything from it but it did pick it up18:21
jussiFor all those attending, if you have a bug, let have it! :)18:21
nhandler#topic Review Last Meeting Action Items18:22
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic: Review Last Meeting Action Items
ikoniaok - I have a query regarding the bug ?18:22
topylireport bugs against ubuntu-community and assign to ubuntu-irc council, no?18:22
ikoniaI agree and think it's a great think to have a public tracking tool like launchpad18:22
jussiikonia: I was going to report the FB bug, but feel free to if you want.18:22
ikoniaI'm pleased18:22
ikoniahowever - query, will the bugs be looked at and addressed or will they just be ignored18:22
jussiikonia: we go through them every meeting, so I hope so.18:22
nhandlerikonia: They will get reviewed at the start of each meeting (fixed action item)18:22
ikoniaeg: if I put a comment on there - is it going to be taken on board or will it just be ifnored18:22
ikoniajussi: with respect, that's currenlty not happening18:23
jussi(like we are doing now)18:23
ikoniaI just want to know if it's worth my effort to do work with them, or not18:23
topylii think we'll also get mail when new bugs are assigned to us18:23
ikoniabeing honest - not trying to be a pain18:23
jussiikonia: We will look at them.18:23
nhandlerikonia: We might not publically discuss each and every comment, but they will be read (and the bug will be discussed)18:23
ikoniatopyli: again - with respect, mail does not work well with the council18:23
Seeker`jussi: are the currently any bugs filed on the private IRCC tracker?18:23
topyliikonia: mail works, reply time varies :(18:23
jussiSeeker`: only the one open one I just mentioned18:23
ikonianhandler: no, I don't expect a public discussion on them, but I expect feedback as to what's being going on18:24
ikoniathe lubuntu ops issue is a real cause for concern and I see no feedback or involvement coming back on that18:24
Seeker`jussi: sorry, whichwas that?18:24
jussiSeeker`: floodbots not being open. Theres also the lubuntu issue pending, but thats not actually in the tracker last time I looked, Its on the ML.18:25
ikoniaso if I was to log a bug around that, I want to know if I put options on there they will be on the agenda, or if they will just be ignored, as is current18:25
Seeker`so nhandler progressed the meeting prematurely?18:25
ikoniajussi: I will raise the floodbot bug18:25
topyliikonia: we'll announce a call for #lubuntu-* ops soon enough. it's not the most urgent thing, they're doing fine afaik18:25
ikoniatopyli: did you hear what the concerns are ?18:25
Seeker`jussi: also, how long has the floodbot issue been on the private tracker?18:25
ikoniawhy as there been no feedback to the concerns18:26
topylishould be done so they can fully integrate with the team18:26
ikoniawhat is the point of raising these concerns if it's just ignored18:26
topyliikonia: yes i have heard the concerns18:26
ikoniathis is the issue I'm raising as part of the bug tracker18:26
ikoniawhat is the point of raising a bug if it's ignord18:26
ikoniaignored18:26
topylino point in rising such a bug18:26
ikonia(I am using that issue as an example, not the be-all-end-all)18:26
ikoniaright - so thank you, raising bugs is pointless18:26
nhandlerSeeI have a bit of lag, and ikonia raised a new point as I changed the topic ;)18:27
ikoniaglad that's confirmed18:27
topylihard to say beforehand what is going to be fixed and what will be "wontfixed", better just file the bug anyway18:27
ikoniano, sorry18:27
ikoniawon't fix is the same as not-hearing-taking-action18:27
ikoniawhich is where we currently are18:27
ikoniaso it's another pointless process18:27
jussiikonia: the fact is, they are public, everyone, including the CC can see if the job is being done. If its not, I assume you, the other ops and eventually the CC will be on our backs.18:27
ikoniainstead of ignoring issues, you can just mark them as "won't fix"18:27
ikoniajussi: clearly not18:27
Seeker`jussi: how long has the floodbot issue been on the private tracker?18:28
jussiSeeker`: not that long, why ?18:28
Seeker`can you give a date?18:28
pangolingoing to guess since they were first started18:29
topyli19th this month, Seeker`18:29
pangolinbut I don't see why the floodbots need to be open18:29
ikoniapangolin: they don't18:29
pangolinSo what is the issue with them?18:30
topylithe problem is they're dependent on one person18:30
Seeker`How on earth can the IRCC claim to be effective if its own members don't even know what has been raised as a bug or not?18:30
ikoniapangolin: I'll raise the bug - and you can view it all in detail there18:30
topyliSeeker`: where did that come from?18:30
topyliikonia: you did it before, you can do it again :)18:31
pangolinCan we please try to get through one discussion at a time.18:31
Seeker`I refer you to topyli's email to the irc list on the 28th october: 'I'm aware of the floodbots ownership and implementation being less18:31
Seeker`than optimal, but I was not aware it has been raised as an issue.18:31
jussiright, so how about the next bug18:31
Seeker`Hopefully, we can liberate the bots someday.'18:31
topyliSeeker`: right. i hadn't looked at it18:31
ikoniatopyli: did what ?18:31
Seeker`9 days after it appeared on the IRCC issue tracker, topyli still wasn't aware of it18:32
topyli"the ircc" was aware, i wasn't18:32
ikonia(sorry if I've lost track)18:32
jussican we move on to bug 788503 ?18:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78850318:32
ikoniajussi: why ?18:32
ikoniajussi: why are we moving on in the middle of a discussion18:32
topyliSeeker`: we don't all have to be on every issue, and i specifically do not deal with technical stuff18:32
Seeker`topyli: there is currently only one issue on the private tracker.18:32
topylii know18:32
Seeker`so how can you not be aware of the single bug that has been filed. To ignore it you must have at least looked to see if there was anything there, to know it was technical.18:33
Seeker`and then you'd be aware that it was filed18:33
topylii've probably seen it and ignored as it's not my "department"18:34
jussiSeeker`: that issue is something that is my peice, and I know topyli was aware of it, Im almost certain he has just forgotten.18:34
topyliif you want to press me personally about that, let's do it after the meeting18:34
Tm_TI agree with topyli on that18:34
Tm_T(we have only certain amount of time for the meeting)18:35
Seeker`members of the IRCC should at least be aware of the issues raised against the IRCC, even if they aren't actively part of dealing with it. Its not that big a job to remember the entire 1 issue.18:35
topylijussi and i finally did have a look at m4v's guidelines draft, and while it still needs a little love, it's a great step forward18:36
topyliit does a good job removing the #ubuntu-centric pieces of the guidelines and makes them more useful. i'm sure well have a good draft for team review soon18:36
ikoniahas the topic just changed ?18:37
nhandlerikonia: We moved on to the other open bug18:37
jussiWe have an etherpad open with it on - you can take a look yourselves and "chat" there about suggestions etc for it: http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines18:37
topylieven jussi's etherpad is kde :(18:38
jussihehe18:38
nhandlerThanks for the great work topyli and jussi18:39
jussiSO hopefully we can have this draft finished for voting on by the next meeting - I hope that many of you can get over there and chip in18:39
nhandlerAnything else to say about this issue for now?18:39
jussinhandler: nothing except hopefully most people will have a look and input18:40
ikoniaI didn't even know it was being re-written18:40
nhandlerAlright, so *really* moving on to old actions18:40
jussiikonia: bugs been open for a while :)18:40
nhandlerI only see one action18:40
topyliikonia: it's a bug on launchpad :)18:40
nhandlerThis is the one about the #lubuntu ops list18:41
nhandlertopyli: Want to give a brief update?18:41
jussiright, lubuntu ops list. Ive created the LP groups, topyli has been liasing a bit with the lubuntu people.18:42
topyliwell, the lubuntu folks hoped for a post-release breathing space, but we should issue a call for ops on the lubuntu channels18:42
ikoniatopyli: if this going to be a genuine selection process, or rubberstamping to tick boxes ?18:42
topylihopefully many the existing ops will re-apply and maybe we'll get more even18:42
topyliikonia: just like any other call for ops18:43
ikoniatopyli: great, so it's going through the standard process ?18:43
jussiyes18:43
ikoniaexcellent18:43
topyliyeah18:43
pangolinHow do the current lubuntu ops feel about having to re-apply for ops?18:44
jussipangolin: we had reaction for that last time, at least some of them are ok with that, and expect it.18:44
pangolinI mean what is the general feedback you got from them if any?18:44
topylivariably, to be honest. but that's to be expected. however, it's hot a huge effort especially if you're already a well respected op on a channel18:45
topylis/hot/not/18:45
* knome giggles18:45
Seeker`why do they have to reapply?18:45
jussiSeeker`: read the logs from last ircc meeting :)18:46
Tm_Tlong and complicated story so ^18:46
Seeker`dothe people that will be assessing them for membership actually know the lubuntu ops?18:46
pangolinMy concern is that perhaps a currently respected op might not get approved and that will/could alienate some of the lubuntu people.18:47
topylithese people are the ircc, and they will have to consult the lubuntu team18:47
ikoniaif it's the standard process, you can feedback when the public call is given18:48
topylipangolin: that's a valid concern18:48
Seeker`unless the ircc have spent a significant amount of time interacting / watching the ops, are they 'qualified' to make judgement to who should/shouldn't be an op. The lubuntu team has clearly chosen their current ops for a reason18:48
nhandlerSeeker`: And they are able to provide feedback.18:48
topyliSeeker`: the ircc is qualified for choosing ops for the ubuntu channels, yes18:48
Seeker`but surely the lubuntu team feel that their current ops are suitable ops, or they wouldn't have chosen them18:49
jussiSeeker`: I think we have been through this pretty well at the last meeting.18:49
Seeker`topyli: I would expect the ircc to be active in channels under their remit enough to know likely candidates for ops, and therefore have enough information about individuals to make a balanced judgement about their suitabiliy for ops18:49
topyliSeeker`: impossible18:50
topyliwhich is why we have open calls for operators18:50
Seeker`how can you know whether someone is suitable to be an op without actually seeing them active in channels?18:51
pangolinbioterror: You have any input on the issue?18:51
topyliSeeker`: magic, logs, and asking around18:51
pangolinby asking other ops what they think18:51
Seeker`(that applies in general, not just to lubuntu ops it would seem)18:51
nhandlerSeeker`: We do look over some logs, we SeeWe look over logs, talk to other people in the channel, and use our personall exeperiences of interacting with the people to make decisions (among other factors)18:52
bioterrorI noticed we have some operators there on the lists, that has never gained the status from chanserv, so hard to say how they act when the situation requires some actions18:52
topyliSeeker`: you probably should have been around when the current operator approval process was (very carefully) discussed and decided18:52
Myrttipardon me for being ignorant18:52
Myrttibut how can an op not have gained the operator status from chanserv, bioterror18:52
jussiMyrtti: ie. added to the ops list but never used it18:53
Myrttisorry, but just asking to get a clear picture18:53
bioterroryeah, never used them18:53
Myrttiright18:53
bioterrorbut as you've seen, we hardly have need for it ;)18:53
bioterrorwe've been lucky, so far18:53
Seeker`topyli: sadly, I can't be on irc 24/7, due to real life issues. Which is why I haven't applied for any leadership positions.18:54
topyliright18:55
nhandlerAlright, we are about out of time. I don't see any items on the agenda, but are there any other quick items we should discuss?18:55
Seeker`didn't jussi want to bring up his mailing list idea?18:56
jussiSeeker`: I will let it be discussed and thought about till next meeting - its not an urgent item18:56
topyliMyrtti also had an idea worth thinking about, but i think both can continue on the ML for now18:56
ikoniaI have a quick one as nhandler and tsimpson are here18:56
ikoniais the council going to be returned to a 5 man team shortly ?18:57
topyligood question :)18:57
Myrttiikonia: tsimpson isn't18:57
ikoniasorry, I thought I saw him earlier18:57
nhandlerikonia: I might not be around on IRC much, but I am following all mailing list discussions, bugs, and checking up on IRC.18:57
jussiikonia: yes, because both those members terms finish next month18:58
ikonianhandler: ok - so you are saying your %100 active/effective18:58
ikoniajussi: that doesn't mean they can't re-join for another 2 years18:58
ikonia(or shouldn't)18:58
Myrttis/re-join/nominate themselves/18:58
pangolinI can't wait to see who nominates themselves for the IRCC next election18:59
nhandlerikonia: No, I am not as active as I was (due to some other obligations), but I am still around and completing my actions.18:59
ikonianhandler: sorry, bad wording, you're still effective18:59
nhandlerAnd yes, I am keeping that in mind with my term coming to an end18:59
ikonianhandler: and it's not a critisism, but there is a perception that we have been 2 men down for some time18:59
ikoniait seems a reasonable question to ask18:59
Seeker`nhandler: how many irc meetings have you been present at in the last, say, 2 months?18:59
nhandlerSeeker`: I can't make one meeting per month due to timezones. I've missed maybe 1 meeting that I can normally attend19:00
nhandlerAnd I think I am going to end the meeting now, we can discuss this stuff later if desired19:00
nhandlerThanks for coming everyone19:00
nhandler#endmeeting19:00
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Sun Oct 30 19:00:49 2011 UTC.19:00
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-30-18.05.moin.txt19:00
topylithanks everyone19:01
pangolinthank you.19:01
jussithanks! see you all next time and lets see those bugs if you havem, as well as contributions and suggestions to the netherpad.19:02

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!