[00:22] stochastic, are you around? [00:27] ailo, will you get helping development this cycle? [00:28] acmeinc1, astraljava , Daviey , rexbron : anyone want to commit to helping development? we have blueprints with tasks that needs people :-) [00:28] @scottL yes, I will [00:28] ScottL, Wish I could say :/. I would like to, of course [00:29] I can't say at this moment, but give me a month to decide [00:29] acmeinc1, i don't remember what you said you might be able to help with, is there anything in particular you want to do? [00:30] look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning [00:30] look at the 12.04 section and see if there is anything you want and think you can complete [00:30] ailo, okay [00:32] @scottl i can work any any of those, has anyone started the live dvd? [00:33] i was already working on the website, but that seems to behandled fine by others [00:33] acmeinc1, do you have experience with live dvd or seeds and such? [00:33] * ScottL is finding the blueprint [00:33] ...and I know this, the lowlatency kernel on 11.04 does not work with xfce and compositing from my testing [00:33] ScottL: Yes, I'm in for this cycle. [00:34] acmeinc1: COOL [00:34] no, i do not have exp with the live dvd [00:34] ping me when you test like that if you dont mind [00:34] i would like to be testing that kind of thing as well [00:34] Under "theme/UI" no plymouth theme? [00:34] i dont think compositing is a deal breaker [00:34] we have a plymouth theme right? [00:35] from falk? [00:35] oh :) [00:36] we have a plymouth theme already that works pretty neat [00:36] madnick, have you seen it lately? [00:36] ScottL: sorry no, i just read through the list :) [00:37] madnick, is it still a pain to get plymouth themes working in vm? [00:37] or impossible? [00:37] nope, it works nicely .. if you *dont* install VirtualBox drivers :P [00:37] ah, i couldn't get it working before but i didn't dig too far into it though [00:38] holstein, i worked up the last plymouth theme from something that cory sent me [00:39] and i did the first one too, which was pretty crappy [00:39] as long as we have one alreayd [00:39] already* [00:48] i've mentioned this before but it is worth repeating a bit and maybe summarizing [00:49] for the past several cycles we haven't really been included in much of the planning and accounting that ubuntu does for releases [00:49] with the new release manager (kate stewart) in place, she is wanting to get a system of planning and accounting for each release [00:49] yup, but do any of the derivitives get input? [00:49] aye [00:49] i just kind of assumed thats the way it was [00:50] cool :) [00:50] we submit blueprints, she approves some or all of them, then we get held accountable ;) [00:50] this is where she tracks it all: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/ [00:51] within each blueprint we have a "work items" list formatted a certain way [00:51] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-lowlatency is an example [00:51] the responsible person is in brackets and the status is at the end [00:52] and the website will track it all [00:52] as we go back and mark work items as "DONE" it moves things down in the burn down chart [00:52] this is a good page that explain the status.ubuntu.com site for those interested: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/about.html [00:53] anyway, we need to agree on what we want to accomplish this cycle as a group [00:53] then assign responsible people to each tasks [00:53] i like it :) [00:53] then start getting stuff done so we don't look bad :) [00:53] well, don't look bad and i don't get yelled at ;) [00:53] i think if we keep the goals managable, will be fine [00:54] i will be gather the blueprints that are already made and cleaning up the formatting [00:54] and we need to consider the release planning page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning) [00:55] and make sure we think we can get what is primilinarily planned for precise [00:55] make new blueprints where necessary [00:55] lay out the tasks in the "whiteboard" area and then assign them [00:56] [00:56] so, i would appreciate if people would review the release planning and consider if we can get it done or not [00:56] we should have a meeting soon to discuss it and finalize our release plan for precies [00:56] precise [00:56] then complete the blueprints and i'll email kate [00:58] Isn't there one this Sunday? [01:00] that sounds like a good plan if there isn't one scheduled already ;) [01:00] but i think you are correct astraljava :) [01:00] holstein, can you do me two favors? [01:04] hi falktx :) [01:04] you have a minute? [01:04] ScottL: sure [01:05] just a minute, falktx [01:05] sorry [01:05] ScottL: sure, i might be out for a bit... but i'll BBL [01:11] holstein, cool, okay now it's three things ;) [01:12] 1. mail the lists about a contributor meeting this sunday [01:12] 2. come up with some sane jack settings so we can get that in by default [01:12] 3. commit to testing the multi-head setup with me [01:12] i presume you will be using a laptop and one monitor [01:12] i'll do a two monitor setup with a desktop [01:13] we should probably document our results and procedures to get things working in the blueprint when we are done [01:14] What GPU do you have, ScottL? I can do similar with nVidia. [01:14] astraljava, one is onboard, another is nvidia i think (not sure on that one actually) [01:14] Ok. [01:15] but you are right, we should test multiple setups against available cards [01:16] If we get the live-dvd, then testing becomes easier, and I can also do laptop + external display with both onboard intel plus additional ati card. [01:18] didn't you guys know? [01:18] I made a US 11.10 live-dvd [01:18] (installable) [01:18] http://sourceforge.net/projects/kxstudio/files/Live/KXStudio_10.04.3-LiveDVD_32bit.iso/download [01:18] oops [01:18] not that one [01:19] this one -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/kxstudio/files/Live/UbuntuStudio-KR_11.10_32bit.iso/download [01:19] ScottL: ^ [01:24] ScottL: i just tried it, and it was a fail.. dual head :/ [01:24] i need to RTFM a bit more [01:26] i say for JACK... 512 frames/period, sample rate 44,100, and periods/buffer 3 [01:26] i'll work on the email for the list too ScottL :) [01:26] * ScottL is on the phone with his wife right now and will be back in a minute or two [01:27] i have several laptops to test dual head on, and can test on an nvidia desktop card [01:36] holstein: I can say that is bad [01:36] falktx: ? [01:36] dual head on nvidia? [01:36] the current settings I use per default for all kxstudio setups are 1024 frames/period, 44'100, 2 periods/buffer [01:37] fwiw i rock 512 as well [01:37] thats fine too [01:37] i mean, those are far from my settings [01:37] holstein: 3 periods don't work for usb or hdmi [01:37] but, we need something normal [01:37] need to be 2 [01:37] something for an internal sound card user too [01:37] something in between [01:37] yep, that works finely afaik [01:38] yes, i have multiple different connectors and i've found the 512 works on everything [01:38] 2 periods as well [01:38] how about 512/2 ? [01:38] at 44.1? [01:38] yes, can work too [01:38] that was my first idea [01:38] i went 3 to relax it a bit [01:38] that's what works with presonus products and a few usb mixers [01:39] i can get the firepod do do 32/2 ;) [01:39] but i usually dont run it that low [01:39] OK... ScottL 512/2 and 44.1 [01:40] holstein: I agree, 512/2 44.1 [01:40] i triple that :) [01:40] whats that? around 40ms? or so? [01:40] typically? [01:45] says 20ms on mine with those settings [01:45] maybe 1040 then [01:45] just like falktx has in KX [01:45] thats 40? [01:46] 3 periods gives me 40ms fwiw, but yea any of those setting'll do [01:46] 1024 you mean? [01:46] lol [01:46] yeah [01:46] im thinking taxes ;) [01:46] im gonna check my usb mixer in a min to make sure it takes 1024 [01:53] back :) [01:54] so what are the default settings we are advocating for jack? [01:54] 1024/2 44.1 [01:54] or 512/2 44.1 [01:54] 512 gets us 20ms [01:55] which might be low for some internal cards [01:55] i don't have access to my usb mixer computer atm, i can double check those tomorrow afternoon [01:55] holstein, by "internal cards" do you mean PCI cards or onboard audio? [01:55] onboard [01:55] but anything 'lame' [01:56] aye, i can test that with three machines this weekend [01:56] ^^ that is opinion-based [01:56] mostly [01:56] ;) [01:56] we might also reevaluate these when the -lowlatency kernel is available ;) [01:56] i cant run jack on one of my netbooks at 1024/2 even [01:56] OH yeah [01:56] holstein, what if you used 1024/3 ? [01:56] lets do 512/2 [01:56] does that work on your notebook? [01:56] ScottL: falktx says */3 is no-go [01:57] ScottL: nah... but thats just one case [01:57] everything else is fine [01:57] did he explain why */3 isn't good? [01:57] yeah [01:57] USB [01:57] OH [01:57] something technical [01:57] yeah, good call [01:57] evaluating these options might let us select what hardware we are going to support though [01:58] ScottL: yes, 3 period size is not good [01:58] for usb, falktx ? [01:58] and since 2 works for internal soundcards anyway [01:58] ScottL: yes, and hdmi too [01:58] hdmi? there are audio cards with hdmi? [01:58] yup [01:58] wicked [01:58] my hdmi tv out as audio support, yes [01:58] video cards with audio on hdmi [01:58] and usb3 will be coming someday soon too i hear [01:59] strangely, i have been told that firewire is "dying out" [01:59] supposedly because of usb [01:59] usb3 [01:59] which i find strange because usb3 audio interfaces aren't really around yet [01:59] we'll see [01:59] apparently the desktop is 'dying out' [01:59] and manners ;) [02:00] * holstein is a geezer anyways [02:00] and firewire can handle the throughput and has better memory access for "memory copy" [02:00] where usb still has to go through the IO for everything [02:00] either way, i'll write down 512/2 for settings [02:01] and 44.1k is good, no? [02:01] yup [02:01] thats the standard [02:01] no reason to do anything else as default [02:01] i used to do everything in 96k but after talking to ricardus for my song i used 44.1k and probably will keep doing that [02:02] 88.2 wouldnt be bad [02:02] a clean multiple of 44.1 [02:02] i had heard that 96k allowed for better plug in expereience by not inducing some artefacts [02:02] theres a good argument for that when dithering down [03:02] good night all, i hope to be back on tomorrow evening when i am at home [03:03] stochastic, take a look at the blueprint and the attached images, tell me what you think [03:03] i'll still give the website a go over this weekend :) [04:16] hey holstein are you around? [04:16] stochastic: \o/ [04:16] whats up? [04:16] just wanted to touch base on what you are thinking for 12.04 [04:16] stochastic: sure [04:16] im just thinking a few things actually [04:17] site is top [04:17] since it'll take a while, and be out of our control [04:17] and we can be doing it now [04:17] the kernel is important too [04:17] i would like to put the old wallpaper in, and use that theme scottl mention [04:17] greybird? [04:17] something like that [04:18] just one of the default icon themes [04:18] something easy and quick [04:18] and if someone gets around to changing those, then thats just extra gravvy [04:18] and the live CD would be nice too [04:18] stochastic: how about you? [04:19] well I'm right on track with what you're concerned with, [04:19] cool [04:19] site is a top priority for me this cycle [04:20] kernel sounds like it has enough hands but come testing time.... [04:20] well, guys like me can test [04:20] i dont mind doing that [04:20] The Ubiquity installer patch is something I plan on looking into [04:20] that ties directly into switching to a live DVD [04:21] just a heads up that from prior memories switching to Ubiquity can have a number of bugs that we need to trouble shoot [04:22] stochastic: thats good to hear [04:22] and, i could totally agree with pushing it out a cycle [04:22] stochastic: what i dont want is to have a buggy installer for our LTS [04:22] but, the current one has been buggy for me and others as well [04:23] for the past few cycles [04:25] in general stability is something I think the entire team desires this release [04:26] holstein, I hope you'll help greatly with ironing out all kinks you come across and encouraging people you know to give alphas/betas a try [04:26] yup [04:26] i can do that... and help test [04:26] its the heavy lifting i dont know much about [04:27] i can get some folk to try the ISO's though [04:27] wonderful [04:27] what do you mean by 'heavy lifting' [04:28] live installer is a bad idea [04:29] not a great way to test performance from a slow usb key or cd rom [04:29] will give people a false impression [04:30] yeah, i disagree though [04:30] i find that it runs pretty well live [04:30] like avlinux, gnuguitarinux, the 64studio livecd, and puredynes live CD [04:30] they all work pretty well live actually [04:30] not as well as dynebolic did [04:31] but, its a nice way to see if the hardware works with JACK [04:31] otherwise, the only way to do that is installing [04:31] There's no difference in performance from a live media [04:32] Compared to a installed OS [04:32] http://puredyne.org/ is a great example [04:32] its not totally sparse either [04:32] its a desktop-like experience [04:32] JACK runs well though [04:32] KXstudio too [04:32] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/Main_Page [04:33] i mean, if you have first hand experience jasonmchristos , please share [04:33] but, if you are thinking about that time you loaded kubuntu on the old P3 and had a hard time with it, thats not what my findings have been testing JACK in a live environment [04:34] what i want is for folks to be able to try the hardware before they wipe and install and get frustrated with it [04:36] rearanging the system to run from one hardware to ram completely changes performance [04:36] not to mention with audio where its ram intensive [04:36] loading things into ram from a usb key isnt a good measure of how it will run live [04:37] jasonmchristos, It always runs from ram [04:37] Applications are loaded into ram, and run from there [04:37] The only difference between running from usb / CD / hard drive is loading time [04:38] It takes longer time to load programs into ram from CD than it does from a hard drive [04:38] sure, but whens the last time you tried it jasonmchristos ? [04:39] falk has us a live CD built [04:39] a live 11.10 ubuntustuio, so we can try it and see [04:40] i personally used the 64studio live cd quite often [04:41] i used to run the 64studio disc live on a laptop [04:42] that would create synth sounds with very low latency (like 5ms) [04:42] i would record those analog into my interface [04:45] Guys&|Girls I think the general idea behind a liveDVD install is less of a "here test this system out live before you install it" and more of a here's a GUI on which you can make sure things will run before you install it. Also, the Ubiquity interface coupled with the liveDVD would provide just such a smooth installation experience for a new user in comparison to the current alternate installer. [04:46] yeah... i was saying its more congruent with the main ubuntu install [04:46] jasonmchristos: and i do want to encourage your input and welcome you here [04:46] hi jasonmchristos [04:46] but, if im explaining to you what latency is, you might want to take some time and try one of the live CD's with JACK on it [04:49] hi stochastic [04:54] jasonmchristos, are you interested in helping develop Ubuntu Studio or are you just stopping by to provide some input/feedback for us to think on? [04:57] stochastic, how much does it pay ? [04:57] jasonmchristos, totally volunteer at this point [04:58] we all do it for the fun of building a great distro [04:59] we are always looking for more hands to make lighter work though [05:00] going to have to pass if it doesnt pay enough for the hardware i would have to dedicate to it [05:00] thanks for asking [05:00] just giving input at this point [05:00] fair enough, thanks for the input, that helps too [05:02] though educated input would be helpful as well... if you have time to try one of those live CD's i mentioned [05:02] jasonmchristos, out of curiosity, how long have you been using Ubuntu Studio and what do you think it's number one goal should be? [05:02] see what you think [05:03] I used it back a few releases ago and just installed 10.11 [05:03] The goal should be better documentation [05:03] documentation is the end all of the user experience [05:04] without knowing how to use something then its useless no matter how great it was designed [05:04] something to explain what each setting is and does [05:04] something on the cd [05:04] not a wiki [05:04] someting hard [05:05] not something that jokesters come on and change everything [05:05] wikis are what we have thought [05:05] no wikis are no good [05:05] thats the easy way for everyone to contribute [05:05] right, but thats what we have [05:05] that everyone can contribute to [05:05] no one knows the design as well as the builder [05:05] everyone desnt need to contribute [05:05] jasonmchristos, that does seem to be a short-term goal - totally a valid one where we do still need massive improvements - but if we only created a well documented distribution that had very little multimedia tools or improvements would you be satisfied? [05:06] the builder has to have a helper explain in detail and articulate in the proper launguage to the end user [05:06] sure, but 'the builder' wont contribute here... we have to paraphrase [05:06] good doc writers are the number ONE priority [05:06] and we = me and you [05:06] and thats what we need, i agree [05:06] better documentation [05:06] we are working on a blog type area on the new site [05:07] stochastic, i would be much more satisfied if the documentation on ho to use each app was detailed rather than having 1000 aps with no idea how to use them or get them to work together [05:07] okay [05:07] there neds to be a link on the desktop to this articulate documentation [05:07] again not a wiki [05:08] something that the docwriters write up [05:08] and it needs to come in a package [05:08] full documentation [05:08] linked on the esktop [05:08] desktop [05:08] ok [05:08] make it so [05:08] I like the idea of a desktop link [05:09] it has been suggested here before [05:09] yeah, its linking to what though [05:09] printable docs [05:09] would a simple launcher that executes firefox to point to the proper docs be appropriate? [05:09] pdf or some other preformatted for printing [05:09] wikis are unfortunately the place of choice [05:09] so far [05:09] no wikis are terrible [05:10] thought i identify with your frustration [05:10] if i hear wiki one more time... [05:10] or someone says google it [05:10] however, i dont need to print anything [05:10] im gonna plode [05:10] can we leave the wiki conversation? [05:10] wiki is as bad as google [05:10] have to sift through garbage looking for a diamond of info that may not ever be there [05:11] bad docs = time waste [05:11] productivity should be priority [05:11] this needs to be excellent docs [05:11] with the option to print [05:11] let me give you an exaple [05:11] edora uses a wiki [05:11] * stochastic would like to point out that almost any webpage is printable [05:12] but i searched for hours to find that no where was the live ram option for live cd explained [05:12] I do understand that there's a difference between designed to print and printable though [05:12] no one would ever know its even there to use [05:12] cleaning them up is on the table though... thats something we are working on having contributors for [05:12] stochastic, im saying such as a pdf or something [05:12] not a wiki with ads [05:12] and icons [05:12] and signature spam [05:13] and, when you find something like that that is frustrating, the ide is that you can fix it, since they are somewhat public editable [05:13] idea* [05:13] yes, a professional documentation of the system would be a wonderful tool [05:13] linked right on the desktop [05:13] adio production might not be networked [05:14] so has to be a full package [05:14] even if in html format [05:14] trouble then brews when you look at the size of the team and the maintenance that the docs would take [05:14] well thats going to make or break the user experience [05:14] it might be conceivable to do a LTS doc, but even then the team is quite thin [05:15] write me up a webpage for funding and i will do it [05:15] but i cannot afford to do it for free [05:16] funding is a strange beast here with our ties to Canonical [05:16] well tell them to put me on payroll [05:16] I've never looked into it but others have, never to return with concrete answers [05:16] they are a real company [05:17] you'd have to chat with them about it [05:17] im from the SHOW ME state [05:17] show me the money! [05:18] could get bones from kindle if its kindle format [05:18] you can tell them [05:18] cause people to install the kindle reader [05:18] that would be great :) [05:18] thanks for the input on docs jason, I will pass your ideas on to the rest of the team, including our fearless leader Scott - who's quite active in the docs area [05:19] feel free to approach Canonical about funding for professional documentation and let us know where those talks progress to [05:19] if that could be worked out that'd be wonderful [05:21] ok ill send them an email [05:21] furthermore, I'll try to make it a project of mine to make sure some kind of link from the desktop to documentation exists in the upcoming release. I like that concept and others in the past have been on side with it as well. [05:21] i was suggesting linking the IRC help to #ubuntu and/ore #ubuntu-beginners as well [05:22] #ubuntustudio can be slow as we all know [05:22] holstein, you mean from the webpage links? [05:22] like, when you start xchat or whatever is in ubuntu now [05:22] i think it sends you right in #ubuntu right? [05:22] yes [05:23] ubuntustudio goes to #ubuntustudio? [05:23] I don't recall that behaviour [05:23] i was thinking that could be #ubuntu and #ubuntustudio [05:23] or just #ubuntu even [05:23] from there you would be sent to ubuntustudio if needed [05:23] you may have done that in your personal settings of xchat [05:23]