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mdeslaurjdstrand, sbeattie, jjohansen, micahg, tyhicks: meeting?18:09
* sbeattie waves18:09
=== wcchandl1r is now known as wcchandler
jdstrandoh yes18:14
jdstrandI adjusted the clendar and everything, and then still got confused18:15
* jdstrand hates DST18:15
jdstrandmdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: I'm here for the meeting now18:15
jdstrandI apologize for being late18:15
micahgok, we only have 45 minutes :)18:16
meetingologyMeeting started Mon Nov  7 18:16:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.18:16
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired18:16
jdstrandThe meeting agenda can be found at:18:16
jdstrand[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting18:16
jdstrand[TOPIC] Announcements18:17
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
jdstrandTeam attended UDS last week. It was a very busy week and we have a lot to do. For details, see http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p and our blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu?searchtext=security-p18:17
jdstrand[TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report18:17
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
jdstrandI'll go first18:17
jdstrandI have a bunch of updates I am working on, so will continue with those18:18
jdstrandI've got a bit of an email backlog that I need to tend to18:18
jdstrandI'm also going through my merges today, and getting to some of them18:18
jdstrandI will be patch piloting this week18:18
jdstrandand then there is UDS aftermath (eg, discussing work items, prioritizing, etc)18:18
jdstrandthat's it from me18:19
jdstrandmdeslaur: you're up18:19
mdeslaurI'm currently testing tomcat6 updates, hopefully I'll get them out today or tomorrow morning.18:19
mdeslaurI'm also working on some embargoed issues18:19
mdeslaurand have a few more packages to test that are ready to publish18:19
mdeslaurThis week, we'll be going through the blueprints and assigning and prioritizing work items...We'll talk more about that once everyone has done their status report18:20
mdeslaurthat's it from me. sbeattie, you're up18:20
sbeattieI'm on triage this week18:20
sbeattieI've got updates for openjdk, apache, and squid that I need to test and publish, with more in the pipeline.18:21
sbeattieI also need to a bit of post UDS cleanup18:22
sbeattieI think that's it for me18:22
sbeattiemicahg: poke18:22
micahgI've got Mozilla updates, short week (off Wed and Thu), have to look into the DigiCert issue that Mozilla posted to see if we need other updates for it, some Chromium testing, that's it for me18:24
jjohansenI guess thats me up them18:25
jjohansenI have some kernel work flow (2 kernels), an email backlog, UDS aftermath (work item priorities, and apparmor ml follow on discussions), bug #810270, and starting on policy stacking18:25
ubottuLaunchpad bug 810270 in openldap (Ubuntu Oneiric) "AppArmor profiles need updates for /var/run → /run and /var/lock → /run/lock and /dev/shm → /run/shm" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/81027018:26
jjohansenah gah, wrong bug#18:26
jjohansennow /me has to dig through the bugs instead of notes18:26
jjohansenanyways its the alias bug cboltz brought up18:27
* sbeattie marks jjohansen down for post-UDS organizational cleanup, too.18:27
jjohansenhehe, yeah18:28
jdstrandtyhicks: you're next18:28
tyhicksI'm in the happy place this week18:29
tyhicksI've got a little bit of a start on a freetype update. I'll finish up that one before moving onto the rest of my security update queue18:29
tyhicksI need to finish testing a couple eCryptfs fixes and get them applied upstream A18:29
tyhicksI've got an ubuntu-security-sponsors update that spilled over from last week, while at UDS, that I want to get to before mdeslaur does18:29
tyhicksjdstrand: that's it18:29
mdeslauroh! yeah, I'm on community this week also18:29
jdstrandcool, thanks18:30
jdstrand[TOPIC] Highlighted packages18:30
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
jdstrandThe Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Securi18:30
jdstrand[TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions18:31
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
mdeslaurjdstrand: your blurb got truncated there ^18:31
jdstrandThe Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.18:31
jdstrandSee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.18:31
jdstrandDoes anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?18:31
mdeslaurjdstrand: shall we discuss blueprints/work items now?18:32
jdstrandmdeslaur: sure, go for it18:32
* jdstrand hands the mic to mdeslaur 18:32
mdeslauris this on? <tap><tap>18:32
* jdstrand actually heard the tap in his head. kinda weird18:33
mdeslaurso, this week we'll be going through the blueprints to 1- assign work items, 2- prioritize work items18:33
mdeslaurjdstrand, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: could you please go through your blueprints and create work items for the ones that currently don't have any? This needs to be done before wednesday so we can then prioritize them18:34
mdeslauralso, if you see work items you would like, please mark your named next to them to make it easier once we go down the list18:34
micahgmdeslaur: not before Wed, I can do it Friday18:34
jdstrandjdstrand: ack18:35
jjohansenmdeslaur: ack18:35
tyhicksmdeslaur: ack18:35
jjohansenjdstrand: perhaps you meant mdeslaur?18:35
jdstrandmdeslaur: ack18:35
tyhicksjjohansen: No, he's talking to himself again :)18:35
mdeslaurin particular, the following don't currently have work items: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-ecryptfs , https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-mozilla-lts , https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-apparmor-ubuntu18:35
jdstrandjjohansen: ;)18:35
jdstrandI've got the last one18:36
micahgI have the middle one :)18:36
tyhicksI've got the eCryptfs one18:36
mdeslaurno fistfights, how nice :)18:36
sbeattiemdeslaur: okay18:36
jdstrandmicahg: can you at least do a quick first pass on that bp? I don't think there is a ton and it will help mdeslaur18:36
jdstrand(friday is too late for the release status meeting)18:37
micahgACK, will try18:37
jdstrandmicahg: if not, we can do a first pass18:37
mdeslaurso, on wed, we'll be going down the list and making sure they're assigned to the right people, and prioritizing them18:37
mdeslaurmicahg: that's why firefox and chromium are written in C, to give you time to do other stuff while they are compiling... :)18:38
mdeslaurok, that's it for me18:38
* mdeslaur hands mike back to jdstrand18:38
jdstrandmdeslaur: thanks!18:39
jdstrandanything else?18:39
micahgmd5 stuff?18:39
micahgor we can save it for next week18:39
mdeslaurmicahg: what would you like to talk about md5 stuff?18:40
micahgabout the possibility of enabling a warning in certain libraries that md5 is being used and that it might be insecure if that's in a security context for the duration of the alphas in precise18:41
jdstrandmicahg: that is a work item in the catch-all. we left it that it would be prioritized with the others, and depending on how it is prioritized, go from there18:43
brodero/ re: backports stuff18:44
jdstrandbroder: go ahead18:44
jdstrandbroder: and hello :)18:44
* broder waves18:44
broderwe're now generating a report of backports that have been superseded by security or stable updates: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~broder/rebackporter/rebackports.json18:45
broder(code in lp:~broder/+junk/rebackporter)18:45
broder(html-friendly report to come as soon as harvest starts importing again)18:45
mdeslaurbroder: cool!18:45
jdstrandbroder: excellent! thanks :)18:45
broderstate of things looks mostly good. i'm going to be following up with the backports team to try and establish policies for security/SRU backports going forward18:46
jdstrandbroder: sounds awesome. thanks to you, tumbleweed and the other backporters on following up on this. we'll adjust that work item accordingly18:46
broderfor the ones where the source release of the backport is deprecated, we don't have the manpower to test replacing them with a backport from a current release, so my proposal is to use the deprecated release as a being strictly better than what's in backports now18:46
broderand for all of them, i'm going to advocate reducing the testing requirements from our usual backports requirements so we can try and reduce the friction of getting them in18:47
jdstrandbroder: I wonder if removing these types of backports would make sense, so others won't get them (since, by your admission, they aren't really maintainable any more)18:48
broderhmm...yeah, that seems like it could be a reasonable option as well18:48
mdeslaurhrm, at least having them there allows the possibility of them being manually patched for security issues18:49
jdstrandnothing saying someone can't still provide said update at a later date18:49
micahgif they're not there and someone wants them, they can request a backport from a supported release18:49
jdstrand(or do what micahg said)18:50
broderright, though for most of these (e.g. libvirt) the burden of backporting them (and testing reverse-dependencies) from a stable release is much higher than just cherry-picking updates18:50
jdstrandyep. I gave tumbleweed some pointers on trying to get the lucid libvirt going on hardy, but that is going to be a hairy update18:51
jdstrandbut that is a corner case-- most aren't like that18:52
jdstrandare there any other items to discuss with the security team?18:53
jdstrandmdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: (and broder) thanks!18:56
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Mon Nov  7 18:56:20 2011 UTC.18:56
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-07-18.16.moin.txt18:56
mdeslaurthanks jdstrand!18:56
sbeattiejdstrand: thank you18:56
tyhicksjdstrand: thank you18:56
jjohansenjdstrand: thanks18:56
broderjdstrand: thanks :)18:56
ubottuThe Developer Membership Board handles applications for new developer privileges. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess for more details. For DMB attention, try !dmb-ping.18:58
bdrung!dmb-ping meeting in a few minutes18:58
ubottubdrung: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)18:58
micahghehe, wrong factoid :)18:59
ubottubdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg, geser, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping18:59
* stgraber waves18:59
tumbleweed[OT] jdstrand: err, I recall no discussion of libvirt on hardy. Was that really me?19:00
brodertumbleweed, jdstrand: uh, i think that was me :)19:01
bdrungcody-somerville and Laney won't attend the meeting19:02
micahgwell, we still have quorum so we're good i think19:03
meetingologyMeeting started Mon Nov  7 19:03:47 2011 UTC.  The chair is bdrung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.19:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired19:03
bdrung[TOPIC] Review of previous action items19:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
bdrungcody-somerville isn't here. so we probably can skip the review of his items.19:04
bdrung[TOPIC] Continue discussion about our package set management workflows (review TB feedback)19:05
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Continue discussion about our package set management workflows (review TB feedback)
bdrungi haven't found the time to catch up the mails from the last few days19:05
bdrungshould we move this point to the end?19:06
tumbleweedIIRC the only response was from sabdfl19:07
bdrung[TOPIC] Creation of new desktop-extra package set19:07
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Creation of new desktop-extra package set
stgrabertumbleweed: well, it was discussed at the TB meeting, then sabdfl commented by e-mail after the meeting19:07
bdrung[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-October/003374.html19:08
tumbleweedstgraber: ah, I was in the plenaries... Anyway, we can discuss it later19:08
bdrungdo we have a sufficient package set description?19:09
bdrungmicahg: where is the description for ubuntu-desktop?19:10
micahgthe only thing that looks funny in there is ekiga, the rest is fine19:11
micahgbdrung: it's a seed, no description needed19:11
bdrungmicahg: but desktop-extra wouldn't be a seed, would it?19:12
micahgubuntu-desktop packageset = basically anything in ubuntu-desktop excluding stuff in desktop-core and core19:12
micahgbdrung: correct, so seb128 gave a rough description19:12
micahgNOT IN ubuntu-desktop, but needed for a vanilla GNOME19:13
bdrungis this precise enough? how sharp is "vanilla GNOME" defined?19:13
micahgidk, perhaps an upstream GNOME link with their base components would be enough?19:14
* micahg hunts for a SME19:15
micahgsubject matter expert19:15
micahgbdrung: maybe we should table until someone pops up that can give us more info19:17
tumbleweedor if that fails, invite a desktop person to the next meeting19:18
micahgideally the person who requested the packageset should be here, but maybe we didn't make that clear19:18
bdrung[TOPIC] Serge Hallyn's application for upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set.19:19
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Serge Hallyn's application for upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set.
bdrung[TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergeHallyn/ServerDeveloperApplication19:19
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergeHallyn/ServerDeveloperApplication
bdrunghallyn: can you introduce yourself?19:19
hallynSure - I'm Serge Hallyn, member of server team.  I mainly watch the virtualization stack, libvirt, lxc, qemu-kvm, etc19:20
hallynI rarely make any changes without discussing them with someone else first, but sponsoring is much more work to ask of someone, so it seemed best to ask for server set upload rights19:22
bdrunghallyn: how good is the relation between the server team and debian?19:23
bdrunghallyn: IIRC e.g. qemu-kvm has big difference in both distributions19:23
hallynI like to think it's pretty good.  (getting ready to submit a bug back to debian from an ubuntu one right now)19:23
* ajmitch had thought that hallyn was core dev already, tbh :)19:23
hallynyes, qemu-kvm is ac ompletely different package in ubuntu19:24
hallynafter this next TLS I want to think about merging back19:24
hallynbut not for LTS19:24
hallyn(s/TLS/LTS :)19:24
stgraberAs I said on hallyn's wiki page, I've been sponsoring quite a few of his uploads (last being an lxc SRU last week), most were good to upload as-is, the few I changed were mostly to add some stuff that I wanted to bundle in the upload ;)19:24
* micahg wonders if there will be a new TLS after the LTS19:24
hallyn(better than a TPS report i guess)19:25
bdrunghallyn: is there something like a server team on the debian side or are you just working with a bunch of different maintainers?19:25
hallynbdrung, different maintainers, though mostly I just work through the debian bug system.  (i do sit on the mailing lists)19:26
bdrungdo the other dmb members have questions in the pipe?19:26
stgraberI don't19:26
hallynI've said this before, but am intending to seek a sponsor soon to get debian DD so I can feel more closely involved19:26
micahghallyn: do you have an interest in any of the other packages in the server packageset besides the few you've uploaded?19:27
hallyn(thank you for not pointing out redundancy)19:27
hallynmicahg, yes.  For general helping out in early-release syncs for instance19:27
bdrungready to vote?19:28
bdrung[VOTE] Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?19:29
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?19:29
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)19:29
meetingology+1 received from bdrung19:29
meetingology+1 received from stgraber19:29
meetingology+1 received from tumbleweed19:29
meetingology+1 received from geser19:29
meetingology+1 received from micahg19:29
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?19:30
meetingologyVotes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:019:30
meetingologyMotion carried19:30
bdrunghallyn: congrats19:30
hallynthanks :)19:30
micahgbdrung: jbicha is here if you want to go back to the desktop-extra packageset19:30
stgraberhallyn: congrats!19:31
micahgat least I think he is19:31
jbichahi, sorry for missing the beginning of the conversation19:31
micahgcongrats hallyn19:31
bdrung[TOPIC] Creation of new desktop-extra package set19:31
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Creation of new desktop-extra package set
jbichawe could use whatever is not in main from gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps19:31
bdrungjbicha: does a script/tool exist to format the .modules file nicely for our usecase?19:33
bdrungmicahg: ekiga is listed in gnome-apps19:34
jbichaI don't know what format you need it in, and I don't know if it comes in a simpler format19:35
micahgyeah, I see, I'm just wondering how related it is, but I guess that's fine19:35
bdrunga plain list of package instead of an xml file would be easier to read, but the xml is sufficient19:36
jbichathere's also http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/plain/modulesets/ but it's the same thing19:36
bdrungThe description of desktop-extra would be then: "Every package that is NOT in ubuntu-desktop, but needed for a vanilla GNOME. Vanilla GNOME is defined by upstream in gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets"19:38
bdrungthis sound precise enough for me. thought?19:38
jbichathat's fine, how about "NOT in main" instead?19:39
micahgI wish I could see a textual list of those files before voting19:39
micahgyes, this would be a universe only packageset I think19:39
stgraberI also would like to see an actual list matching this criteria before voting. The description is fine to review additions afterwards though19:40
stgraber(especially as I'll likely be the one who needs to implement the package set, having a list makes it easier ;))19:40
bdrungthe current list is posted here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-October/003374.html19:40
jbichabdrung: that list wasn't compiled straight from the jhbuild list though19:40
bdrungwe could decide on that list and modify it later using the package description19:41
jbichaI could make a list and email it to the DMB list19:41
micahgwell, still, I'd prefer a textual list of those .module files before agreeing to use them as criteria for future additions19:42
bdrungjbicha: can i give you that action item?19:42
jbichabdrung: yes19:42
bdrungjbicha: if you write a script, you could share that with us19:43
bdrung[ACTION] jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files19:43
meetingologyACTION: jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files19:43
bdrungthen let's way with voting after getting the list19:44
bdrung[TOPIC] Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski's application for upload rights for linux-* packages.19:44
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski's application for upload rights for linux-* packages.
bdrung[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HertonKrzesinski/PerPackageUploaderApplication19:45
bdrungherton: can you introduce yourself?19:45
hertonI'm Herton R. Krzesinski, I work with ubuntu kernel stable team, looking at the stable updates, tracking regressions, etc.19:45
hertonI'm doing a lot of stable updates lately, so it seemed a good thing to get upload rights, instead of bugging Steve Conklin or Brad Figg to sponsor them (they also work/worked on the stable kernel stuff)19:47
sconklin+1 - sponsoring Herton's uploads has become very boring in the last six months19:48
bdrungherton: are you involved in the community outside of the kernel area?19:49
hertonnot at the moment. I have been in UDS, talked with some people, but my are of expertise is more kernel, so I'm more interacting with community in the bug reports about it19:51
micahgherton: the earliest upload I see is at the beginning of June, is there evidence of earlier uploads?19:51
bdrungherton: you criticise the political structure inside the project. Does this criticism applies only for getting upload rights or are there other places, too?19:52
hertonmicahg: that sounds right, June is when I started pushing the ubuntu kernel updates19:52
hertonbdrung: for a newcomer it's not very easy to understand everything at the start I think how to get involved, may be there is some improvements that could be done19:54
micahgherton: were you aware that we generally require 6 months of sustained contributions before granting upload rights?19:54
bdrungherton: did you started with contributing to the kernel package?19:55
sconklinHerton has been preparing kernels for longer than six months, and making contributions during that time. It's only that he's started actually doing uploads in the last 6 months19:56
micahgsconklin: in the Ubuntu kernel git tree?19:57
sconklinlooking for dates now19:57
micahgsconklin: I figured as much since he joined the team 10 months ago, but just wanted to be sure19:57
micahger...9 months19:58
cndmicahg, I didn't know of any specific 6 months of work for PPU uploads19:58
cndI thought that was for motu or more expansive sets19:58
micahgcnd: it's for membership in general not upload rights specifically19:58
* micahg is worried bdrung's question got lost above19:59
cndok, maybe this is butting up against the ppu vs ubuntu membership thing mentioned last week19:59
apwi will point out that herton has been contributing to the kernle since 2009 though outside of ubuntu19:59
bdrungsconklin: do you have a link handy to one commit as prove?20:00
hertonmy first contribution to the ubuntu kernel was to bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/63609120:00
ubottuLaunchpad bug 636091 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Touchpad stops working when wifi/3G connects" [Medium,Triaged]20:00
tumbleweedherton: I'm also interested in your comments about bureaucracy. I remember thinking that it was very bureaucratic before I got involved. But I can't remember quite where, and I wouldn't know what documentation needs changing20:00
micahgyep, noted in changelog for March20:00
micahgherton: thanks20:01
sconklinbdrung: no, I can't find it. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I can tell you he has contributed going back some time, as apw pointed out20:01
ogasawara^^ he's actually been contributing since 200720:02
micahgthe bug that herton linked shows an upload where he was included in the changelog in March which IMHO is sufficient here20:02
tgardnercommit 41d202d80e829c0a489119ad63d7ece08a9786da is July of 2007, the first of many20:03
bdrungherton: one of my questions got lost: did you start contributing to ubuntu by contributing to the kernel?20:03
hertontumbleweed: the wiki has a lot information scattered, it takes some time to read and understand all the membership process. May be a better description in one page of all memberships, a organization structure or picture could help20:03
micahgogasawara: yes, but not to Ubuntu :), we were wondering about Ubuntu specific contributions20:03
bdrunge.g. can the bureaucracy come from the kernel package bureaucracy?20:03
hertonbdrung: yes. In ubuntu I'm started contributing only with the kernel20:04
tumbleweedherton: yeah, we are planning on revamping that page20:04
ogasawaramicahg: hrm, I'd consider a contribution to the upstream kernel a contribution to ubuntu as well since we do base all our bits on upstream20:05
tumbleweedogasawara: sure, but that isn't related to Ubuntu membership20:05
micahgogasawara: it's irrelevant in this case anyways, since he does have 6+ months of Ubuntu contribution20:06
bdrungogasawara: contributing to an upstream project (here the kernel) doesn't grant you ubuntu membership20:06
bdrungi am wondering if we should have an other format for presenting the information than using a wiki20:07
bdrunga wiki tend to be not structured enough20:08
tumbleweedthe packaging guide?20:08
bdrungthat's the question.20:09
stgraberwe're already past our allocated time for the DMB meeting, should we vote?20:09
bdrungk, let's vote.20:09
bdrungbefore vote: do we have a package set for the kernel?20:09
stgraberyes, we have a package set and associated team for the kernel20:10
geserIIRC they are the only one who can upload kernels (not sure if core-devs can do it or not)20:10
stgraberouch, the uploaders part is a mess, yeah for LP bugs... /me goes to poke #launchpad to fix that one too20:10
stgrabergeser: ubuntu-core-dev is part of ubuntu-kernel-uploaders20:11
bdrung[VOTE] Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?20:11
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?20:11
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)20:11
meetingology+1 received from geser20:11
meetingology+1 received from tumbleweed20:11
meetingology+1 received from stgraber20:11
meetingology+1 received from bdrung20:12
micahg+0 I'm reluctant to give a +1 w/out a dev release sponsored upload20:12
meetingology+0 I'm reluctant to give a +1 w/out a dev release sponsored upload received from micahg20:12
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?20:12
meetingologyVotes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:120:12
meetingologyMotion carried20:12
bdrungherton: congrats20:13
bdrungshould we end this meeting now and defer the remaining application to the next meeting?20:13
tumbleweedmicahg: in the case of kernel packages, that doesn't concern me too much20:14
micahgtumbleweed: if not for the dev release, why are upload rights required?  kernel packages go through a PPA anyways20:15
bdrungSRUs need more care than -dev uploads20:15
bdrunganyone not having time to process the last applicant?20:16
* tumbleweed has time20:16
LaneyI don't think you should be considering components for packagesets20:16
micahgLaney: in this case where it's shadowing a seed based packageset, it makes sense IMHO20:17
stgraberbdrung: yeah, I think I have time for one more20:17
Laneyno, it makes sense in relation to the other set20:17
bdrung[TOPIC] Stephen M. Webb's application for upload rights for the uTouch package set20:18
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Stephen M. Webb's application for upload rights for the uTouch package set
bdrung[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenMWebb/DeveloperApplication20:19
bdrungbregma: can you introduce yourself?20:19
bregmaI'm a software developer, a member of the uTouch team developing touch-based sofwtare for Ubuntu20:20
bregmaI also occasionally fix other unrelated bugs, for Ubuntu and Debian20:20
bregmaI have also spent the better part of a decade packaging all kinds of software for other Debian-based distros20:21
=== allison_ is now known as wendar
micahgbregma: what makes you want to join a "cabal of cliquish members"20:23
bdrungbregma: do you have a debian qa page?20:23
bregmamicahg, cliques are only a problem when you're not a member20:23
micahgwell, some would say that just their existence would be problematic which I think "cliques" is something we try to shy away from in Ubuntu20:25
bdrungbregma: are you active on the ubuntu devel irc channels?20:25
bregmabdrung, from time to time20:25
bregmaI mean, I'm usually on the channel, but rarely can answer anything before someone better able can20:26
jbichaif Ubuntu development appears to be "a very closed cabal of cliquish members", then we're doing something very wrong20:26
bdrungbregma: can you give an example in which the ubuntu development appeared as a "closed cabal of cliquish members"20:27
bregmabut I wrote that on a day I was frustrated20:27
bregmawell, I asked on #ubuntu-devel what the best format to submit a bug was20:28
bregmaand the answer was "it doesn't matter" from several responses20:28
bregmaso I submitted a merge request to the ubuntu source package20:28
bregmaand the immediate response from a maintainer was 'we don't do things that way"20:29
bregmaI guess I should have gone back to change my develop application when i was less annoyed but I got busy with UDS and I forgot20:29
bdrungsome prefer patches and other merge proposals20:29
tumbleweednaah, it's good to shed light on problems, that's why that's in the t emplate20:30
bregmaI understand, but it does not mean it' does not appear like a shibboleth20:30
bdrungit's important to talk about problem.20:30
* tumbleweed is guessing desktop team (which uses non-UDD bzr branches, but plans to migrate, from what I heard at UDS)20:30
bregmathe docs and wiki are stymying20:30
micahgdebcheckout can be your friend sometimes :-/20:30
tumbleweedand probably an enemy too :P20:31
tumbleweedbregma: hrm, how didyou get an @ubuntu.com address without membership?20:31
* ajmitch still gets confused as to the 'right' way to do things as well, it's not like you're alone in that20:31
bregmaI've since seen all the changes proposed to the developer application process and other processes, so I realize it's just hard to know what's not easy to learn if you're already on the inside20:32
bregmatumbleweed, the guys at Canonical gave it to me, I assume so uploads don;t balk20:32
bdrungare there other problematic areas beside getting the correct format of your contribution?20:33
bregmajust the problem of trying to figure out how the whole system works... I am not a fan of wikis for finding information20:33
bregmaI didn;t intend to sound like a grouch or anything20:34
bregmabut a lot of my experience with figuring out how things works ends up with a "well, you just gotta know"20:35
bdrungyou are not the only one who finds wikis sub-optimal for presenting information20:35
micahgbregma: any address is fine for a changelog entry (ubuntu.com preferred once earned)20:35
bregmaas a long-time Unix developer, I'm used to having to know what the command is before I can find which command to use, c'est la vie20:36
cndmicahg, it's a lintian warning if it's not @ubuntu.com, IIRC20:36
micahgcnd: only if DEBEMAIL is set to an ubuntu dot come address20:36
cndhmm? DEBEMAIL is used for the changelog entry20:37
bdrungyes if you use dch20:37
bregmaI do not believe I've used my ubuntu.com mail address for anything except mailing list subscriptions any way20:37
bdrungevery question asked?20:37
tumbleweedbregma: I see you've touched packages outside the packageset you are applying for20:38
tumbleweedare you intending to apply for MOTU at some point?20:38
bregmasome day20:38
micahgbregma: is there a reason you've only had one sponsor and therefore one endoresement?20:38
micahg*for the utouch stuff at least20:39
tumbleweedmicahg: I've sponsored uploads for bregma too20:39
micahgtumbleweed: yes, but you haven't commented on the APP20:39
micahgeven as a character witness20:39
* tumbleweed tends to comment when asked. I was replying to "one sponsor"20:39
cndmicahg, for the utouch package set, the number of people available to sponsor is small20:39
micahgcnd: core devs can sponsor as can MOTUs depending on the package20:40
bregmaI've had several sponsors, I just feel really uncomfortable asking for an endorsement20:40
cndyes, I understand, it just seems like the criteria should be lower for ppu20:40
bregmathere's room in Ubuntu for the less social, too20:41
cndtbh, I'm tired of sponsoring bregma's uploads :)20:41
cndhe's quite capable20:41
micahgindeed, for one package I might agree, but for a set, I would think that there should be multiple people reviewing their work before agreeing20:42
* tumbleweed sees that he had no problem's with bregma's uploads either (2 sponsorships). They were in perfect shape20:42
tumbleweedbut I wouldn't endorse from two uploads20:42
cndthere's only one person who uploads utouch packages outside of abnormal cases20:42
bdrungtumbleweed: even for a package set?20:42
micahgbregma: right, but part of uploading is knowing when to ask others and being able to ask others is important20:43
cndand that person endorses bregma to add to the pool :)20:43
tumbleweedbdrung: yeah, I'd probably have left a comment20:45
bdrungare we are ready to vote or do we need more time to discuss this topic?20:45
* stgraber too20:45
bdrung[VOTE] Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?20:46
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?20:46
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)20:46
meetingology+1 received from tumbleweed20:47
bdrung+1 but more than one endorsement would be better20:48
meetingology+1 but more than one endorsement would be better received from bdrung20:48
meetingology+1 received from stgraber20:48
meetingology+1 received from geser20:48
micahg+0 the work itself seems fine and there have been no quick uploads subsequently to fix issues, but I'm concerned about communication with others, it's not just about being social, but about peer review as well, even comments by other sponsors would have been helpful20:48
meetingology+0 the work itself seems fine and there have been no quick uploads subsequently to fix issues, but I'm concerned about communication with others, it's not just about being social, but about peer review as well, even comments by other sponsors would have been helpful received from micahg20:48
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?20:49
meetingologyVotes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:120:49
meetingologyMotion carried20:49
bdrungbregma: congrats.20:49
micahgbregma: congrats20:49
cndthanks all!20:49
bdrungbregma: for your next application i recommend to take micahg's voting comment to heart20:50
bregmathank you20:50
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Mon Nov  7 20:50:24 2011 UTC.20:50
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-07-19.03.moin.txt20:50
tumbleweedwelcome to the clique (hopefully) :)20:50
tumbleweednext chair?20:50
micahgalphabetical order :)20:51
micahgcody-somerville: wins20:51
tumbleweedI guess we also need to get some of our UDS discussion points into the agenda20:51
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
=== davidcalle_ is now known as davidcalle
=== negronjl_ is now known as negronjl

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