[07:45] <dpm> morning all
[07:45] <andrejz> morning
[07:46] <dpm> hi andrejz :)
[07:47] <artnay> hey andrejz, how are you?
[07:50] <andrejz> I am good, just work here hasn't yet produced expected and wanted results. I am slowly getting accustomed to short daylight time
[07:50] <andrejz> @dpm: i sent an email about universe packages to the ML
[07:53] <artnay> andrejz: has your stay been pleasant so far?
[07:54] <andrejz> yeah, i am enjoying my stay here
[07:54] <andrejz> although i mostly go out on the weekends
[07:54] <andrejz> busy with work otherwsie
[07:55] <andrejz> now i moved to espoo to aalto university campus
[07:57] <artnay> that's a pity, those tower buildings are much better (location wise) imo
[07:58] <artnay> andrejz: maybe we could meet next weekend if you have some spare time
[07:59] <andrejz> i would be very much up for it
[09:10] <jussi> vprints: dpm can probqably answer your question, go ahead and ask :)
[09:11] <vprints> Hello :)
[09:11] <vprints> I have a question about translating Kubuntu
[09:11] <vprints> do the current translations come from LP or directly from upstream?
[09:12] <vprints> I remember that there were several rounds of talks that LP messed up the KDE translations, that it should be bypassed
[09:12] <vprints> (quite some time ago)
[09:13] <vprints> but i'm not sure if they actually departed from LP and if they did then what the current status of the matter is
[09:13] <andrejz> @vprints
[09:13] <dpm> vprints, translations come from upstream, are imported into Launchpad, where they can be completed if necessary, and then they are exported from there into language packs
[09:13] <andrejz> oh, dpm just answered it
[09:14] <vprints> aha
[09:16] <vprints> and if i now translate 11.10 then i won't be "waisting my time", these translations would also get included in 12.04 and not overwritten with (possible) blanks from upstream?
[09:18] <andrejz> they get automatically synced
[09:18] <andrejz> so no
[09:18] <andrejz> you are not wasting your time
[09:18] <andrejz> if the english string will be the same in 12.04 than in 11.10 then it will be automatically copied via translations sharing
[09:19] <vprints> cool
[09:19] <vprints> thanks
[09:19] <vprints> :)
[09:19] <andrejz> but of course if sting in 12.04 is different than in 11.10 you will need to translate it again
[09:19] <vprints> btw, are the scripts that do this public?
[09:19] <vprints> yes of course
[09:19] <andrejz> If it is similar however, your previous translation might be displayed as suggestion
[09:20] <andrejz> not sure, need to ask dpm for that
[09:23] <dpm> vprints, yes, Launchpad is open source: https://dev.launchpad.net
[09:36] <vprints> ok, thanks :)
[09:56] <vprints> at what point in the release cycle translations in LP are enabled?
[09:56] <vprints> usually
[09:56] <vprints> is it when the alpha 1 comes out or later?
[10:00] <sagaci> vprints: for precise?
[10:03] <vprints> yes
[10:04] <vprints> precise is what interests me, but mabe it is not yet exactly know
[10:04] <vprints> n
[10:04] <artnay> vprints: I believe translations will be opened a few months after UDS so basically it's alpha 1 phase
[10:05] <artnay> at least that's how it's been previously
[10:05] <andrejz> something around that time
[10:05] <andrejz> but you must be aware string can still change until string freeze
[10:05] <artnay> and even after that ;)
[10:05] <andrejz> and often there are string freeze exceptions even after that
[10:06] <vprints> yeah :D
[10:06] <andrejz> or imports are delayed for some reason, etc
[10:07] <andrejz> or progamers forget to add some strings in the po templates and add them after bug is reported and such
[10:34] <andrejz> +1 from me for google+ page TLE
[10:50] <sagaci> vprints: will you be around for 20 mins or so more?
[10:51] <vprints> yes
[10:51] <vprints> why?
[10:51] <sagaci> I can get a definitive answer for the change from last cycle if you hold a few
[10:52] <vprints> cool
[10:52] <TLE> *Uhhh ohhhhh uhhhh*
[10:53]  * TLE emulating the language pack testing ghost
[10:53] <TLE> *uhhhhh remember to test your language pack*
[10:54]  * TLE makes things start dropping of you walls and the coffee start boiling in your cup
[11:21] <sagaci> vprints, 20th-22nd july it changed, roughly
[11:46] <andrejz> dpm are you there?
[11:50] <dpm> hi andrejz, I am
[11:51] <andrejz> i was wondering what should be the next step in universe translatable in LP
[11:55] <andrejz> we now have a list of applications to start with
[11:56] <sagaci> andrejz, what's the list
[11:56] <vprints> kk, thanks :)
[11:57] <yurchor> sagaci: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Universe_Translations_in_LP
[11:57] <andrejz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Universe_Translations_in_LP
[11:57] <andrejz> too late
[11:58] <sagaci> thanks
[11:58] <andrejz> obviously this is not the final list
[11:58]  * yurchor thinks that it is very-very bad idea to translate downstream.
[11:58] <andrejz> but a set of suggestions which we should use to test this capability and iron out the bugs in implementation
[11:59] <andrejz> i agree in general. but sometimes you have long delays with the upstream
[11:59] <andrejz> also
[12:00] <andrejz> sometimes there is no upstream for certain languages and it can be quite tedious work to translate *some* packages upstream
[12:00] <yurchor> andrejz: You will end up like this https://launchpad.net/gajim  (imho).
[12:01] <andrejz> i don't see what are you trying to say with gajim, yurchor
[12:02] <andrejz> I don't see anything special in their LP page
[12:02] <yurchor> andrejz: Two cycles ago somebody proposed the same thing: let's translate gajim with indicator patch downstream. People still translating it. ;)
[12:03] <yurchor> And Gajim still developed and translated upstream. No translation from Launchpad packaged.
[12:06] <andrejz> of course it would be great it this would be done with some cooperation from upstream
[12:06] <yurchor> So what's the problem with cooperation?
[12:06] <andrejz> but there is another side of the coin too, for example it's practically impossible to translate ccsm (compiz config settings manager)
[12:07] <andrejz> @yurchor: to export translations upstream afterwards
[12:07] <andrejz> you can only translate ccsm here - http://l10n.compiz.org/pootle/
[12:08] <yurchor> Ubuntu does not like upstream, does it? ;)
[12:08] <andrejz> it depends who you ask
[12:08] <andrejz> i like upstream
[12:08] <andrejz> but sometimes it's very difficult to work with
[12:08] <andrejz> we cooperate great with gnome
[12:08] <andrejz> we translate everything we can in gnome
[12:08] <andrejz> and not in LP
[12:09] <andrejz> anyway everything related to compiz and translations is outdated
[12:09] <yurchor> So there will be the private Ubuntu club for bad upstreams. Right? ;)
[12:09] <andrejz> and/ or not working
[12:10] <yurchor> No Debian, no OpenSUSE, no Fedora, just Ubuntu?
[12:10] <andrejz> well we would like to provide alternative workflow for some of the more visible/important packages
[12:10] <andrejz> it doesn't mean it's for ubuntu only
[12:10] <yurchor> Mint++ ?
[12:10] <andrejz> translations can be exported out and used upstream too (that's why i mentioned collaboration with upstream)
[12:11] <andrejz> what i am trying to say is that it's really difficult to translate ccsm right now
[12:11] <yurchor> So why just not making upstream to use Launchpad, instead of branching translations?
[12:11] <andrejz> if it was available in LP many more teams would attempt to translate it
[12:12] <andrejz> well that depends on them (upstream). If they don't want to use Lp you cannot/should not  force them tp
[12:12] <andrejz> to
[12:12] <yurchor> Ok, I got it. :)
[12:12] <yurchor> Thanks.
[12:13] <andrejz> as for compiz they said they were planning to move upstream translations to LP about a year ago, both myself and dpm offered assistance and so far not much has happened
[12:13] <andrejz> i know they might be very busy with other stuff / have small team
[12:13] <andrejz> but on the other hand this translations are quite visible
[12:13] <andrejz> you need ccsm if you want to configure unity
[12:14] <andrejz> many other upstreams are less friendly to translators (have a higher technical entry level)
[12:15] <andrejz> I have some negative experience with wine when i needed to create my own account and commit translations directly, because the person i was in contact with was unwilling want to do that for me
[12:16] <andrejz> many translators (non-technical like me) would have / might have given up
[12:16] <yurchor> Ok. It will be interesting experiment. Ubuntu forks upstream translations. Be ready for Fedora gambit (Transifex with no translations in repository). ;)
[12:16] <andrejz> not for many packages
[12:16] <andrejz> only a couple of most important
[12:16] <andrejz> also another thing is
[12:16] <andrejz> you cannot do any bugfixing currently
[12:16] <andrejz> until next version of upstream package comes out
[12:17] <andrejz> maybe we are a specific case (slovenian) as we virtually have no upstream translations done (besides KDE, Gnome, libreoffice)
[12:18] <andrejz> for debian i needed to wait for 9 motnhs (from february till november) till my translation got pulled in by maintainer
[12:19] <andrejz> if this was translated within launchpad it would be translated 2 releases earlier
[12:19] <andrejz> but again it needs to be done the right way, so upstream projects can also have some use of it (use this translations easily)
[12:19] <andrejz> so dpm, what should be the next step?
[12:21] <andrejz> note yurchor, i don't have anything against upstream per se
[12:21] <yurchor> Ok, upstream does not have anything against Ubuntu. ;)
[12:22] <andrejz> we collaborate (help translating, send bugfixes) with mozilla, gnome, libreoffice and KDE teams very well
[12:22] <yurchor> A-ha, I know. ;)
[12:23] <yurchor> That's why kdegraphics module is retranslated for Kubuntu on Launchpad. Because of collaboration. ;)
[12:24] <dpm> andrejz, let me reply to your e-mail on the UTC list
[12:24] <andrejz> sure dpm
[12:24] <andrejz> well i don't know how it works for your particular team
[12:25] <andrejz> i agree it requires extra effort to export to upstream or do work in upstream from the beginning, but it's worth it
[12:25] <andrejz> we have a list of KDE modules we translate in LP and they don't touch them in KDe
[12:26] <andrejz> when they are done we send them to KDE team for review and if they seem OK, they commit them
[12:26] <andrejz> @yurchor: this collaboration depends very much on the local teams (your KDE team and ubuntu team)
[12:26]  * yurchor as upstream contributor is sometimes got a little tired of this collaboration
[12:27] <andrejz> i agree. it would be the easiest if all the packages could be translated at one place. unfortunately it's not like that
[12:28]  * yurchor kicks bad fortune
[12:28] <andrejz> i am also an upstream contibutor
[12:28] <andrejz> in fact I started as a gnome translator
[12:29] <andrejz> and i agree it takes extra effort to commit bug fixes both in LP and gnome (in Lp so that they are fixed ASAP in ubuntu)
[12:30] <TLE> Wuhu, Ubuntu translators page on Google+ up, follow and share: https://plus.google.com/b/102330453873285638035/
[12:31] <andrejz> I am not sure how far along is export from LP to upstream but again that is not the solution because then KDE transaltions could be overwritten by downstream in some cases, which would cause even more friction
[12:31] <andrejz> i subbed TLE
[12:32] <andrejz> yurchor, ultimately you need to sit down for a beer with your ubuntu translations team and discuss it ;)
[12:33] <yurchor> The most "friction" during the last cycle were caused by translation *not exported" by Ubuntu. There is no such thing as Ubuntu Ukrainian (and for the lack of activity, not Russian).
[12:33] <yurchor> My messages form Launchpad interface go nowhere (bug of Launchpad).
[12:33] <yurchor> ?
[12:34] <andrejz> yeah there might be some bugs in implementation, i agree
[12:40] <andrejz> also imports are not working ok all the time
[12:41] <andrejz> for example in april i got 1000 suggestions in package evolution which were dated in november 2010
[14:05] <artnay> andrejz: are you able to provide back fuzzies to upstream? that's one reason why upstream doesn't like LP
[14:06] <artnay> I just noticed clementine ditched LP for transifex
[14:10] <andrejz> i don't know enought about technology behind it to be sure. That's why i am asking ;)
[14:50] <happyaron> dpm: ping
[14:51] <dpm> happyaron, freeflying just pinged me, is this about the same topic?
[14:51] <happyaron> dpm: right
[14:51] <dpm> joining #ubuntu-cn-translators now
[14:51] <happyaron> dpm: thanks
[15:13] <ashickur-noor> Hi there
[15:14] <ashickur-noor> I am a new translator of Ubuntu
[15:15] <andrejz> hello
[15:15] <ashickur-noor> I need some help about it
[15:16] <ashickur-noor> is there any rules to translation
[15:16] <ashickur-noor> or I can translate word by word?
[15:19] <geirha> Translating word by word should generally be avoided.
[15:19] <ashickur-noor> geirha:  then How should I do?
[15:20] <andrejz> well try to understand the meaning of the string in english
[15:20] <andrejz> and try to translate it so it has the same meaning in your language
[15:22] <ashickur-noor> andrejz: hum I doing that thing
[15:22] <ashickur-noor> any other thing that keep in mind?
[15:22] <andrejz> usually each language has it's guidelines, try to find them
[15:23] <andrejz> usually there are some tricks you need to be carefull about in every language
[15:23] <ashickur-noor> can you give me any link?
[15:23] <andrejz> i don't know which language you are talking about
[15:23] <ashickur-noor> what kind of trick
[15:23] <ashickur-noor> Bengali(bn-bd)
[15:24] <andrejz> like for example in my language it's not correct to translate "FTP server" but you should instead use "server FTP"
[15:24] <andrejz> different order of words. many people are not aware of that when they start for example
[15:24] <ashickur-noor> oh
[15:24] <ashickur-noor> I know that
[15:24] <geirha> ashickur-noor: You might find fellow Bengali translators in #ubuntu-bd
[15:24] <ashickur-noor> any other thing?
[15:25] <ashickur-noor> there is no one
[15:25] <ashickur-noor> let check again
[15:26] <ashickur-noor> Only two person there
[15:26] <andrejz> here is your team link - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-bn
[15:26] <andrejz> you can use this mailing list to communicate - ubuntu-l10n-bn@lists.launchpad.net
[15:26] <andrejz> check here
[15:26] <andrejz> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-bn
[15:26] <andrejz> or just contact team leader
[15:27] <ashickur-noor> Hum need to contact with him
[15:28] <andrejz> at the beginning your translations are marked as suggestions until someone confirms them
[15:39] <ashickur-noor> what does it means <emphasis>
[15:43] <ashickur-noor> ??