[03:09] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Ubuntu: More Than The Default Install - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/08/ubuntu-more-than-the-default-install/
[08:00] <popey> Morning all
[08:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> \o
[08:02] <AlanBell> morning
[08:03]  * AlanBell is in Northampton
[08:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning AlanBell I thought you would be driving a car right now...
[08:03] <AlanBell> or rhereabouts
[08:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh
[08:29] <DJones> Morning all
[08:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Is it just me or is commonjs.org not available for anyone?
[08:34] <selinuxium> o/
[08:45] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: Its down for me
[08:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks DJones - I thought it wasn't just me - been down since last night :-(
[08:54] <MooDoo> hello all
[08:59] <DJones> Morning MooDoo
[09:13] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:14] <Myrtti> moin
[09:17] <daubers> o/
[09:21] <bigcalm> Hi
[09:22]  * daubers fires up banshee
[09:22] <MooDoo> morning
[09:23] <daubers> Had a thought last night. Is it me, or is UDS becoming a bit cathedral like (based on a lot of blog posts and things I've read recently)
[09:23] <MooDoo> define cathedral like?   lots of bells and singing?
[09:23] <DJones> Protesters camping outside?
[09:24] <bigcalm> :D
[09:24] <daubers> In the Eric S Raymond sense
[09:24] <MooDoo> cathedral and the bazaar is a book i doubt most people have read :)
[09:24] <daubers> It's on my list of things I really should read more closely
[09:25] <MooDoo> daubers: sounds like you should also be firing up a new media player ;)
[09:25] <bigcalm> daubers: short sighted?
[09:26] <daubers> bigcalm: No, more that a small group of people seem to define big changes with/
[09:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> DJones: I think you might know this... What's the cheapest way to pay an international invoice (Euro). We could use: Bank Transfer, Business Credit Card or PayPal?
[09:26] <daubers> without necessarily having the relevant people who are involved with the decision
[09:27] <AlanBell> daubers: you are right
[09:27] <AlanBell> which works fine for a lot of the decisions made
[09:27] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: We normally use bank transfer because we pay so many overseas invoices, but that costs about £10 per payment
[09:28] <daubers> AlanBell: Maybe, I just think that more of a fanfair should be made about UDS, and maybe combine it with some kind of big event to help pull in all the upstreams
[09:28] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: Credit card I don't think costs any extra, but if its in foreign curency there may be a charge and the receiver normally has something deducted as charges
[09:28] <TheOpenSourcerer> I guess it is a collection of transaction fees and exchange rate games...
[09:28] <DJones> We don't use paypal so I can't comment on that
[09:28] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK - Thanks.
[09:28] <daubers> So they can lay out their stall and supply more relevant information to the given decision makers
[09:29] <AlanBell> daubers: err, there is a bit of a fanfair and upstreams are welcome, and often sponsored to attend
[09:29] <AlanBell> and it is combined with the linaro summit
[09:30] <AlanBell> however I don't think the default apps decision is very well made at UDS
[09:30] <AlanBell> it might even have been the right decision, but that is more by luck than judgement
[09:32] <daubers> AlanBell: I don't think I'm in the right position to comment on bansheegate, but UDS seems to lack some simple things, like a master published summary of what was discussed/decisions that where made. It's all relied on peoples blog posts more than anything else
[09:33] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:35] <czajkowski> daubers: true usually there is a better wrap up on the friday
[09:37] <AlanBell> daubers: it is on the blueprints, which get converted to burndown charts
[09:37] <AlanBell> mostly decisions are people deciding they are going to do things
[09:40] <daubers> czajkowski: I don't think it would be too hard to task one person in each session as note taker, and have a couple of people collate them at the end of the day
[09:40] <czajkowski> daubers: as AlanBell says it's on the blueprints tbh
[09:40] <czajkowski> UDS is fairly busy
[09:40] <czajkowski> I did well to get a blog post out a day
[09:42] <daubers> Hmmm... their not particularly accessible to the average bod
[09:44] <AlanBell> no, they are not
[09:44] <AlanBell> which is why people write accessible blog posts summarising the interesting bits to them!
[09:45] <AlanBell> would be nice for the track leads to do a daily summary, which is why I wrote code in summit to support doing exactly that, but I am going to remove it because nobody has ever used it
[09:45] <AlanBell> this server I am sat in front of has 3 CPU cores, which is odd
[09:45] <czajkowski> I can see it would be nice
[09:46] <czajkowski> but I don't think track leads could manage it tbh
[09:46] <czajkowski> given I know how busy UDS is
[09:46] <daubers> AlanBell:AMD?
[09:46] <AlanBell> daubers: yes
[09:46] <daubers> code in summit?
[09:47] <AlanBell> quit simple really, on a meeting page like this http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19768/community-p-designing-and-creating-ubuntu-experien/
[09:47] <AlanBell> below the pad there is a link to community summary for Monday
[09:48] <daubers> I see
[09:48] <AlanBell> the theory was that at the end of each session folk could copy and paste  note or two about significant decisions arrising
[09:48] <AlanBell> then the track leads could edit that as they wanted into their daily summary
[09:48] <AlanBell> but hey, the idea didn't catch on
[09:49] <daubers> Could it not be automated (the first step anyway) by catching some form of markup from the main body of the text?
[09:51] <AlanBell> that is a plausible feature, that bit is going to be rewritten using etherpad lite rather than etherpad for UDS Q
[09:51] <AlanBell> might well have some way to do that, good suggestion
[09:59] <jnick_tait> join #goneonical
[10:04] <daubers> bah, having an unproductive morning
[10:04] <daubers> Considering rearranging my desk
[10:06] <daubers> Ummm, should the /topic be updated?
[10:09] <DJones> Too slow doing that :)
[10:10] <daubers> :) T
[10:10] <daubers> Ta
[10:13] <AlanBell> daubers: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-summit-etherpad-lite added your suggestion
[10:18] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :D
[10:19] <daubers> AlanBell: Ooh, ta
[10:26] <directhex> etherpad lite is a different bucket of fail to etherpad
[10:33] <AlanBell> yeah
[10:33] <AlanBell> we think it is a more fixable bucket of fail
[10:33] <AlanBell> directhex: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda that is where to add an item about the default app selection process
[10:34] <AlanBell> directhex: do you have a non faily pad suggestion?
[10:34] <directhex> AlanBell, sadly not.
[10:48]  * daubers is tempted to go postal and annihalate all the sales people next doo
[10:48] <daubers> r
[10:54] <oimon1> how does XFCE do compositing?
[10:55] <oimon1> experience a bug 753144 bug with unity, but not with xfce, however xfce seems to have 3D enabled (not compiz though)
[10:55] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 753144 in compiz (Ubuntu) "focused, or maximized windows blank" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/753144
[11:13] <Myrtti> oimon1: yes it does do compositing
[11:14] <oimon1> Myrtti: yes, seems so , cos docky works OK with it. not suffering the same bug though
[11:14] <oimon1> i've had such bad experience with 11.04 and 11.10 :(
[11:19] <DJones> INteresting read http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/ubuntu_on_trial/
[11:24] <oimon1> DJones: didn't they write this article a few weeks ago too?
[11:25] <DJones> oimon1: Probably, pretty much every time a new release comes out they write something about users not being happy with changes
[11:25] <oimon1> el reg have a "unique" style of journalism
[11:26] <oimon1> which makes their articles very incoherent
[11:28] <DJones> unique is one way of describing it
[11:30] <DJones> At times it has some well written & researched reports, and yet other reports are sensasionalised more than the news of the world would
[11:37] <popey> haha Liam is a bit bitter
[11:39] <oimon1> there's never any flow to the articles, just a bunch of links and disjointed text
[11:40] <BigRedS> It *is* a tabloid
[11:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> I didn't read anything "bitter" in that article. In fact he said he rather liked Unity. He seemed to me to be quite comprehensively discussing the history, why we are here and what choices one has.
[11:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> "Some people, your humble scribe included, rather like Unity's new look."
[11:43] <oimon1> i like the look, i just try and fail at using it
[11:43]  * TheOpenSourcerer is still on 10.10
[11:43] <oimon1> i'm having one of those weeks - new computer on the desk, and tried 11.10 but not sure whether to roll back to 10.04
[11:44] <lornajane> I made it to 11.10 ths weekend, finally, but moved to XFCE when I did that (from KDE)
[11:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's all GNOME's fault for developing something new ;-)
[11:44] <BigRedS> I still don't understand the problem that Gnome3 solves
[11:44] <MooDoo> lornajane: turning out all tight for you?
[11:45] <MooDoo> s/right :)
[11:45] <BigRedS> It seems that they waited almost exactly until Gnome2 was decently configurable, and then replaced it with something that isn't :/
[11:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hey BigRedS That sounds a bit like Windows XP to Vista.
[11:46] <lornajane> MooDoo: so far it's pretty good, nothing getting in my way
[11:46] <MooDoo> lornajane: awesome :)
[11:46] <lornajane> I don't use a pointing device so the "new features" in window managers are mostly useless and just waste system resources
[11:46] <lornajane> right now I'm running four sets of tabbed konsole, opera and skype.  I really don't need much in the graphical space
[11:47] <oimon1> on xfce right now
[11:47] <oimon1> i'll probbly get used to it, but been using gnome2 quite a while now and i like it
[11:49] <lornajane> I'm trying to bond with having the bar at the top.  We'll see how that works out.  So far, everything else just works as I expect and the window manager is not in the way
[11:49] <oimon1> why did you move away from kde?
[11:50] <BigRedS> because it doesn't remember configuration between sessions?
[11:51] <daubers> GAH!
[11:51]  * daubers starts looking at jobs
[11:51] <lornajane> I had zero problems with KDE, used it for 10 years and liked it - but I just don't want or need anything so fully featured
[11:51] <oimon1> lxde is slightly closer to KDE than xfce IMO
[11:52] <lornajane> I run fluxbox on the netbook (which is wildly underpowered) and like it, so I looked around and thought I'd try XFCE as an alternative somewhere between the two
[11:52] <lornajane> oimon1: someone else recommended lxde to me on twitter, I might take a look at that too sometime
[11:52] <oimon1> knoppix uses it now
[11:53] <BigRedS> I tried to see the point in lxde. It felt exactly like openbox but with a whole new way of configuring it which didn't seem particularly easier or more reliable than hand-editing XML
[11:53] <DJones> I keep meaning to try lubuntu to see how well that works on some older hardware I've got sat round
[11:54] <oimon1> lxde has a start menu, openbox didn't last time i looked
[11:54] <BigRedS> yeah, it's openbox + panel
[11:54] <BigRedS> and the
[11:55] <BigRedS> usual collection of bits and pieces
[11:55] <oimon1> realised that my sound card is futzing out when i do other stuff on the PC
[11:55] <oimon1> :(
[11:55] <BigRedS> I mean, i can see the point as an openbox distro or something, but it's no less disjointed than doing it yourself and not a lot less effort
[11:56] <oimon1> BigRedS: i used it on my eee pc for a while, seemed quite effortless
[11:56] <oimon1> although i didn't try to change anything
[11:56] <BigRedS> maybe I've just forgotten how much effort I put into OB...
[11:59] <oimon1> should update manager install updates without asking for password?
[11:59] <oimon1> it seems to
[12:00] <BigRedS> yeah
[12:00] <BigRedS> if you're a sudoer IIRC
[12:02] <oimon1> ah
[12:02] <DJones> oimon1: Yeah, does that for me
[12:03] <DJones> A bit of a shock to the system when you're used to being asked for a password, first couple of times it did it, I was thinking I'd gone senile & forgotten I'd entered the password
[12:08] <MooDoo> It's almost lunch time :D
[12:08]  * TheOpenSourcerer just had TWO digestive biscuits.
[12:08]  * brobostigon has salt a vinegar crisps, and chicken sandwiches.
[12:10]  * MooDoo isn't sure what to have, maybe ubuntu with a side order of "huzzah"
[12:10]  * MooDoo has flipped today
[12:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> I will probably have a cheesy sandwich with a good dollop of extra-hot home-made chilli chutney :D
[12:10]  * popey had marmite on toast
[12:12]  * MooDoo moves away from stinky popey 
[12:17] <MooDoo> lornajane: did you use lubuntu or just regular ubuntu and installed lxde?
[12:18]  * tonytiger notes an e-mail from popey getting cited in an El Reg article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/ubuntu_on_trial/page2.html
[12:18] <BigRedS> haha, the sounder list :)
[12:19] <popey> happy days
[12:19] <lornajane> MooDoo: I didn't try LXDE yet.  This was just an upgrade to existing kubuntu and I installed xfce as well
[12:20] <MooDoo> lornajane: sorry that was me reading your posts wrong i meant xfce lol
[12:21] <lornajane> MooDoo: on this laptop, I didn't try xubuntu but I am building a VM to distribute for some courses I'm teaching, and that will be straight xubuntu
[12:21] <lornajane> I'm kinda here in case I need technical support :)
[12:23] <tonytiger> lornajane: o/
[12:24] <MooDoo> lornajane: php dev right?
[12:25] <lornajane> hello tonytiger :)
[12:25] <lornajane> MooDoo: right!
[12:25] <MooDoo> lornajane: ignore that, of course we know who you are :)
[12:27] <lornajane> don't tell me that, I'll get exaggerated ideas of my own importance
[12:28]  * popey waves at lornajane 
[12:28] <MooDoo> lornajane: sorry, i just happen to read your blog on your site :)
[12:29] <lornajane> hey popey, how's it going?
[12:29] <popey> great thanks :D
[12:30] <lornajane> MooDoo: don't apologise :)  I love my blog, it brings new and interesting people into my life
[12:30] <MooDoo> :D
[12:32] <gord> back when i had a blog, i just met lots of new and interesting people that wanted to sell me pills or diploma's :(
[12:33] <MooDoo> gord: i need to just update mine :D lol
[12:35] <lornajane> gord: mine is interesting. I knew that the new ubuntu upgrade would cause issues with gearman before I did it, because I had blog comments on my post about ubuntu and gearman telling me that
[12:36] <lornajane> so I stopped my sysadmin from upgrading the production system before I did my dev system (which we should do anyway but ubuntu pretty much works so we don't always)
[12:36] <lornajane> and sure enough, I have issues
[12:36] <MooDoo> oh i like that "my sysadmin" :) lol
[12:40] <lornajane> MooDoo: that would be the sysadmin and seriously long term partner in my life, who taught me to code in the first place
[12:42] <MooDoo> lornajane: groovy, coding rocks....now what's php again :)
[12:50] <oimon1> monster munch is BOGOF...i feel i can justify eating 2 packs at lunch
[12:51] <BigRedS> We've had 14-pack bags of those disappear in a number of hours ehre
[12:52] <scoundrel50a> Hi, I have lost my desktop, it wont load when you start the laptop up. Its a lanovo 550 pentium 11.10 preinstalled.....I just had a freeze, restarted and the desktop went, I went into Ctrl+Alt+F2, and ran the command unity  ---resetand got the message 'Warning: no DISPLAY variable set, setting it to :0 unity-panel-service: no process found.......anybody know how I can get around that
[12:52] <MooDoo> oimon1: they are not the same as when i was a kid, a lot smaller now boooo
[12:52] <kirrus> oimon1: which shop from? :)
[12:53] <oimon1> sainsbury
[12:53] <oimon1> 14-packs
[12:53] <kirrus> Looks like I'll to sainsbury's on the way home... and hide some packs in the office to stop them vanishing too fast ;)
[12:53] <kirrus> s/to/go to/
[12:53] <oimon1> ribena's half price atm too i think
[12:54] <oimon1> frazzles ribena and monster munch made me the man i am today
[12:54] <hippychick> dell or thinkpad laptop any ideas?
[12:55] <lornajane> hippychick: thinkpad!  I love mine and am looking at getting another one - my boyfriend has one too now
[12:55] <Azelphur> hippychick: in my experience the dells usually have a bit more power, where as the thinkpads are much more robust
[12:55] <Azelphur> I had a thinkpad when I was a kid dropped it like 4 times and it still worked after :D
[12:56] <MooDoo> i keep trying to get my daughter to hold my laptop but she won't for some reason, no new laptop for me.....[she's 7 weeks]
[12:56] <MooDoo> hee hee
[12:56] <lornajane> this thinkpad is 3 years old, it's a hand-me-down, and I run a business off it.  They are quite literally indestructible
[12:56] <Azelphur> ^ that's typical of thinkpads :D
[12:56] <oimon1> they are both good choices IMO.
[12:56] <oimon1> depends on budget too
[12:56] <scoundrel50a> does anybody have any ideas?
[12:56] <Azelphur> yea, depends on what you want really :)
[12:57] <hippychick> hmm, sounds good, my dell has lasted just over a year :/ i had an asus before that which lastest a year and a half so i want somthing abit more longer lasting
[12:57] <oimon1> which dell model hippychick?
[12:57] <Azelphur> then yea go for the thinkpad, they are built like tanks
[12:57] <hippychick> studio 1749
[12:57] <DJones> My Dell lasted 10 years :)
[12:58] <oimon1> my dell latitude d630 hinge broke 1 day before the 3yr support ran out , and i had a streak of dead pixels, but generally i find
[12:58] <oimon1> ..that they should last a few years at least!
[12:59]  * oimon1 wonders if hippychick works on a building site 
[12:59] <hippychick> well it wouldnt detect the power supply anymore and the screen was warped, i tried some diy laptop repair and fried the motherboard
[12:59] <Azelphur> oimon1: I've had problems with multiple d6xx and screen hinges \o/
[12:59] <Azelphur> although it's largely because my brother likes to carry them around dangling by the screen
[12:59] <oimon1> agh
[13:00] <hippychick> well im presuming i fried the motherboard, Oly said i didnt do anythign which would have caused it though.....
[13:01] <oimon1> i don't allow my users to purchase laptops with company money without buying 3yr support
[13:02] <Twinkletoes> Age old question... Ubuntu LTS or Debian for a virtual server?  Any opinions?
[13:03] <Azelphur> I use the latest Ubuntu for my dedi server and have no problem
[13:03] <daubers> popey: The missus just stumbled on you through google when she was looking for some SAP stuff
[13:03] <Azelphur> LTS is to do with large hardware deployments where it'd be difficult to upgrade, on a single server it's not that difficult to press the upgrade button.
[13:03] <oimon1> i used to use debian until LTS came along. now my servers are a mixture of centos and ubuntu LTS
[13:04] <oimon1> Azelphur: s/difficult/unecesary/
[13:05] <Twinkletoes> I've always used LTS in the past myself, and was wondering if I would get more stability/security from Debian if I'm only going to run bind and postfix
[13:05] <Azelphur> from a technical standpoint debian is probably more stable as it's more minimal than ubuntu
[13:05] <Azelphur> in practice, probably no difference as neither will crash for years
[13:06] <Twinkletoes> heh! - Yeah - I'll be long gone than ;)
[13:06] <Azelphur> 08:01:44 up 132 days, 17:16,  0 users,  load average: 0.59, 0.61, 0.84
[13:06] <Azelphur> My server, which is currently on 11.04, need to upgrade it :)
[13:06] <Twinkletoes> I suppose that one might be better then the other, but the difference in this case is infinitessimal?
[13:06] <Azelphur> It's been upgraded from 10.10
[13:06] <Azelphur> in terms of stability, yes.
[13:07] <Twinkletoes> security?  As it's a DNS server?
[13:08] <oimon1> btw tsco tell me i have £91 of vouchers..can i get them to resend them?
[13:08] <Azelphur> I don't know shit about DNS servers, but it's highly likely that there's little to no difference again
[13:08] <Azelphur> no doubt they probably use the same software, perhaps even the same packages
[13:08] <Twinkletoes> Ok, thanks for the comments ;)
[13:10] <oimon1> new gmail is hard to read :(
[13:11] <DJones> oimon1: I've not looked at that, I always use thunderbird
[13:12] <DJones> Just logged in, I have a button "Switch to new look"
[13:17] <oimon1> any nvidia users in here? i can't suspend/resume with nvidia drivers :(
[13:17] <Azelphur> I'm nvidia but I never use suspend/resume
[13:25] <popey> daubers: unlucky
[13:36] <hippychick> toni 1 laptop 0 :D fixed the laptop :D
[13:37] <Azelphur> woo \o/
[13:38] <hippychick> and it looks like my charging problem has been fixed....
[13:40] <hippychick> right, time to back everything up
[13:40] <Laney> is tmux any good?
[13:42] <daubers> popey: It was something saying how pleased you where about leaving SAP behind
[13:42] <daubers> also, has anybody read Head First Java? Is it any good?
[13:43] <popey> haha
[13:43] <popey> really?
[13:43] <daubers> popey: Yup
[13:43] <popey> probably a log of this irc channel :D
[13:43] <daubers> heh
[13:46] <shauno> this is interesting.  how do you tell a customer their contract expired 46 minutes ago =x
[13:46] <MooDoo> shauno: hi x your contract expired 46 mins ago
[13:46] <MooDoo> ;)
[13:46] <daubers> "If you want this information you need to pay us x a month as your contract expired while I was having a coffee"
[13:47] <MooDoo> shauno: are you the owner of the business?
[13:47] <shauno> nah
[13:47] <MooDoo> shauno: do it nicely then ;)
[13:48] <shauno> I'm pretty much pretending it's still yesterday, service-wise.  but trying to find a way to drop it into convo that doesn't make me sound like a salesman
[13:48] <daubers> Right, I've got three servers going into a datacenter to do a couple of jobs. Should I build them as a cloudy thing, or just taask each one with a task. Is three machines enough for a cloudy type thing
[13:48] <shauno> I figure I can claim innocence because the customer is in AU.  so I'm in their yesterday
[13:48] <MooDoo> daubers: well first of all stop saying cloudy type thing :)
[13:48] <daubers> shauno: "If you found this helpful you might want to renew your support"
[13:48] <BigRedS> daubers: how important is it that they work?
[13:49] <daubers> BigRedS: Quite important, one is being tasked as a hot failover
[13:49] <BigRedS> then it's probably best to stick with whichever you know best :)
[14:09] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] What I Did on my Rotation - http://blogs.kde.org/node/4500
[15:32] <daubers> Whose turn is it to make the coffee?
[15:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> tumbleweed...
[15:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> thumb twiddliing
[15:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> whistling to himself
[15:34] <MooDoo> that bored eh?
[15:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> No - I was ignoring daubers
[15:39] <gord> i'm pretty sure whoever asks who's turn it is, is the turn-e
[15:40] <bigcalm> I had a pizza for lunch that made me sweat. I like a bit of spice, but that was uncomfortable. Still ate it though
[15:40] <bigcalm> gord: unless it's asked loudly enough at one person in a group, hinting that they haven't made a cuppa for others for ages
[15:43] <bigcalm> Don't like the new g+ favicon.ico for some reason
[15:49] <daubers> I would, but I've been fixing boxes in Denmark all day after stupid salespeople said things to customers they shouldn't have
[15:50] <daubers> </very annoyed>
[15:54] <diplo> heh, I just had a cuppa turn up on my desk if that helps daubers
[15:54] <diplo> :)
[15:54]  * daubers mumbles incoherently
[15:55]  * DJones makes a cup of spiced apple tea
[15:55] <MooDoo> yum
[15:55]  * Oli mumbles off to make himself an espresso
[15:56]  * daubers checks the data disclaimer and wipes 32TB of data
[15:57] <MooDoo> wow
[15:58] <MooDoo> daubers: not take you long ;)
[16:04] <daubers> MooDoo: mkfs is a wonderful thing in the wrong hands
[16:06] <DJones> For anybody thinking about getting a rasberry pi http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/312
[16:10] <Azelphur> one of the fans on one of my bitcoin nodes 5870's failed :(
[16:10] <Azelphur> "fixed" it :D http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/Photos/November%202011/IMG_20111108_160010.jpg
[16:10] <Oli> DJones: they've launched sales?
[16:11] <DJones> Looks like pre-orders on the official site
[16:11] <Oli> I'm guessing that because their database has crumbled.
[16:11] <DJones> But seems like there's fake sites appearing
[16:12] <Oli> Oh okay - so they haven't started taking order yet (that I can see)
[16:13] <DJones> Azelphur: That doesn't look very safe
[16:13] <Azelphur> pfft, safety
[16:38] <BigRedS> looks fine to me
[16:51] <daubers> if (lobster->condimentAdded=='ketchup'){ head.explode();}
[16:53] <MooDoo> ping Laney
[17:11] <MooDoo> daubers: are you going mad?
[17:47] <Azelphur> can you get cheapo pci(e?) sata cards, purely for the purposes of adding more hdds to a machine that only has 2 sata ports?
[17:48] <popey> yes
[17:48] <Azelphur> any recommendations? :)
[17:48] <MartijnVdS> Any SATA-600 PCI(e) card will do I guess:)
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> PCIe is potentially faster
[17:51] <Azelphur> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/lycom-pe-103-x2-port-sataii-3gbps-pci-e-controller-card-with-ncq-pc-mac-linux guess I'll grab this :)
[17:51] <Azelphur> oh wait, I don't even have a PCI-E slot free haha
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> that's SATA-300
[17:52] <Azelphur> *shrug*
[17:52] <Azelphur> perhaps a new motherboard is in order \o/
[17:52] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: you don't want fast disks, just disks?
[17:52] <Azelphur> yea, it's literally just for movie storage
[17:59]  * ball wants disks too.
[18:00] <ball> ...and pie.
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> ball: filelight can make pie-charts of disk usage... ;)
[18:06] <safiyyah> Hi all
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> \o safiyyah
[18:06] <safiyyah> not here with a problem
[18:06] <safiyyah> just came to sit :)
[18:10] <popey> safiyyah: podcast is live in just over 2 hours
[18:10] <popey> over in #ubuntu-uk-podcast
[18:10] <safiyyah> okay will pop in
[18:10] <safiyyah> lol
[18:11] <safiyyah> second time I came into the room just to sit..... my life is going to pot for sure
[18:25] <m4r35n357> anyone getting loads of bad certificate dialogues for oracle in thunderbird?
[18:34] <buzz_> linux mint is above ubuntu on distrowatch last 6 months of stats, and consider ubuntu just had a release and linuxmint didn't, perhaps it suggests ubuntu does not deliver in the desktop what many users want. enough to make canonical sit up and listen? i would think not
[18:34] <buzz_> also what linux mint are doing with next release, sounds far more towards "listening to users" than ubuntu - http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1851
[19:43] <jacobw> pidgin still isn't creating a new window when first launched on my oneiric instance
[19:43]  * jacobw will investigate and file bug if necessary
[19:56] <BigRedS> buzz_: or people just don't use distrowatch to download Ubuntu all that much?
[19:56] <BigRedS> I forget it exists until someone makes a big thing about Ubuntu not being on top every few months, and then I remember for half an hour and get back to using search engines to find things
[19:57] <ali1234> firstly, distrowatch doesn't count number of downloads
[19:57] <ali1234> secondly, ubuntu has been at the top of the list for the paste 3 years
[19:58] <BigRedS> What is distrowatch's ranking? I thought it counted click-throughs to the mirrors?
[19:58] <jacobw> distrowatch is irrelevant
[19:58] <BigRedS> well, yeah
[19:58] <ali1234> sure, keep acting like there isn't a problem
[19:58] <ali1234> keep repeating it long enough and it will become true
[20:00] <czajkowski> could someone please do the euro sign
[20:00] <czajkowski> :.
[20:00] <czajkowski> cannot get it to work on laptop
[20:00] <jacobw> €
[20:00] <czajkowski> jacobw: thanks
[20:01] <BigRedS> haha
[20:01] <jacobw> alt-gr+$?
[20:01] <BigRedS> wikipedia's invaluable for those things. That's where all my sarcastic TMs come from
[20:01] <czajkowski> €
[20:01] <czajkowski> hah
[20:01] <czajkowski> cheers
[20:01] <czajkowski> it was 3
[20:01] <czajkowski> BigRedS: brat
[20:03] <BigRedS> what?
[20:03] <mattt> i think she called you a brat
[20:03]  * BigRedS grumbles
[20:03] <czajkowski> you laughed
[20:04] <BigRedS> I'm generally laughing, though
[20:04] <BigRedS> I can't help it if you happen to have some misfortune nearby
[20:04] <BigRedS> :)
[20:11] <jacobw> !packaging
[20:11] <lubotu3`> The packaging guide is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment - See also !backports
[20:11] <jacobw> o/ SuprEngr
[20:11] <SuprEngr> o/ jacobw
[20:12] <SuprEngr> just got in - panic mode - podcast ;)
[20:15] <jacobw> 14 minutes to go :p
[20:16] <buzz_> ali1234, yes but thats my point it isnt top for the last 6months, the trend seems to show it losing ground to other distros (even ubuntu based ones)
[20:16] <BigRedS> But it's only losing ground on whatever metric it is that distrowatch measures
[20:17] <czajkowski> BigRedS: charming :)
[20:17] <SuprEngr> [[enjoying the gentlepodcast  music after a day full of scheiss till then]
[20:18] <BigRedS> Distrowatch hasn't known about any distro that I've downloaded or installed in the past 8 years or so
[20:18] <buzz_> well. i think it has some significance
[20:19] <buzz_> BigRedS, so what ? :)
[20:19] <buzz_> not sure i follow your point whatever that may be..
[20:20] <ali1234> like i said, distrowatch doesn't count downloads or installs
[20:20] <BigRedS> buzz_: I suspect I'm not in the minority, and so distrowatch represents distrowatch users better than it does linux users
[20:20] <buzz_> if they havnt covered any distro you have used, i suspect you are in the minority
[20:20] <ali1234> distrowatch represents linux users rather well
[20:20] <ali1234> it doesn't doesn't really represent ubuntu users however
[20:20] <BigRedS> what does it measure?
[20:21] <ali1234> it measures page hits afaik
[20:21] <buzz_> ali1234, i can agree with that, but im not sure that nullifies the trend though
[20:21] <buzz_> not completely
[20:22] <ali1234> see distrowatch is not just a list of ISOs you can download
[20:22] <ali1234> they maintain a database of which database uses which package
[20:23] <ali1234> so what we can infer from this trend
[20:23] <buzz_> you could argue that linux mint users are using ubuntu anyway but ;-) and that ubuntu users are using debian too heh
[20:23] <ali1234> is that people who know other distros exist, and take an interest in comparing them, are leaving ubuntu
[20:23] <buzz_> for example
[20:24] <ali1234> but they are going to mint, which is just ubuntu but with a sensible desktop
[20:24] <buzz_> it seems to.. at least more so than others
[20:24] <ali1234> so that tells us those people like everything about ubuntu except for unity
[20:24] <ali1234> actually it doesn't tell us that
[20:25] <ali1234> it tells us that people are most interested about mint
[20:25] <ali1234> not that they are actually switching
[20:25] <buzz_> im certainly interested to see what linux mint can do with gnome3 and if they can keep gnome2 as an option.. i think that's what users want. the choice.
[20:26] <ali1234> there is no more choice than there ever was
[20:27] <buzz_> there is less choice
[20:27] <BigRedS> ali1234: I think the suggestion is that there's now less :)
[20:27] <buzz_> there used to be the choice to use or not to use unity on ubuntu.. ok there is if you ditch gnome but
[20:27]  * buzz_ runs xfce currently
[20:28] <buzz_> having just put together an oneiric image for the o2 joggler, i can tell you that the classic gnome interface was much more usable, on the touchscreen
[20:28] <ubuntubhoy> buzz_, gnome shell works well with touchscreens
[20:29] <BigRedS> does it? It seems to love keyboards
[20:29] <buzz_> ubuntubhoy, ive not tried it yet, but i will give it a spin, should it work on the gpu / drivers
[20:29]  * jacobw loves keyboards
[20:29] <BigRedS> I've never used it on a touchscreen, but I really like the sensible keyboard shortcuts
[20:29] <buzz_> ive not tried it on  a touchscreen device that should say
[20:29] <ubuntubhoy> there are a couple of extensions that make a dif, but they are all official ones
[20:30] <ali1234> i would say the level of choice is about the same as it ever was
[20:30] <BigRedS> yeah, you can still install your pick of about 9 DEs/WMs
[20:30] <ali1234> just the choices have changed
[20:30] <buzz_> well if you include the fact that some choices have been removed and replaced with others
[20:30] <buzz_> its no good if your choice has been removed
[20:30] <BigRedS> well, version numbers have gone up as they keep doing :)
[20:31] <buzz_> now oneiric is out, at least my bug on launchpad that was easy to fix but wasnt fixed for 6 months can be just marked invalid like most other launchpad bugs ;-)
[20:32] <ali1234> hah
[20:32] <BigRedS> haha
[20:32] <ali1234> not yet it can't
[20:32] <ali1234> anyway just open it again against oneiric
[20:32] <buzz_> it's fixed on oneiric
[20:32] <buzz_> just as a side effect..
[20:32] <ali1234> upgrade then
[20:33] <BigRedS> haha, fixed is fixed
[20:33] <buzz_> i don't need it now anyway. but still. it should have been fixed before natty was released..
[20:34] <BigRedS> you must be new here :)
[20:34] <buzz_> how's that ?
[20:34] <buzz_> because i expected it to be fixed? :)
[20:35] <BigRedS> yeah
[20:35] <BigRedS> all the launchpad bugs I've had fixed are non-ubuntu
[20:35] <ali1234> yeah same here
[20:35] <buzz_> it was a real easy fix... i would have fixed it if i could. i mean i fixed it locally
[20:35] <ali1234> it kind of sucks when you are reporting bugs in unity though
[20:36] <diplo> Evening all
[20:37] <BigRedS> well, I just can't be arsed to file ubuntu bugs any more, really
[20:37] <buzz_> it was the right mouse emulation stuff  (mousetweaks) had the gnome3 version with natty that needed gnome2 version. anyway. i used it for right mouse emulation, but now i use evdev
[20:37] <BigRedS> especially if I can fix it locally
[20:37] <BigRedS> which is completely backwards
[20:37] <buzz_> http://www.mail-archive.com/xorg-devel@lists.x.org/msg26232.html
[20:37] <ali1234> wait are you exobuzz?
[20:37] <buzz_> which i backported to the version of xserver running
[20:37] <buzz_> yep
[20:37] <diplo> Anyone use a Blackberry in here ?
[20:37] <ali1234> lol
[20:37] <AlanBell> buzz_: tried the latest onboard in oneiric-proposed?
[20:37] <buzz_> AlanBell, yep. and its prettier than before, but not even close to as usable as say florence
[20:38] <buzz_> which was removed from oneiric , even though it can be build without gnome2 panel support
[20:38] <AlanBell> it now has right mouse click stuff build in
[20:38] <AlanBell> why was florence useable?
[20:38] <buzz_> more responsive
[20:38] <ali1234> how do you do a right click with a on screen keyboard?
[20:38] <buzz_> you can actually type quicker than 1cps on it
[20:39] <AlanBell> ali1234: it has a button, and the next click you do is a right click, the button just happens to be on the same UI
[20:39] <buzz_> AlanBell, how should i use the onboard right click emulation with say xbmc then
[20:39] <ali1234> that's awful
[20:39] <buzz_> which is why evdev based right click emulation works better (imho)
[20:39] <AlanBell> I don't know what xbmc is
[20:39] <ali1234> all you need to know is it runs fullscreen
[20:39] <buzz_> it's a media center app. fullscreen
[20:40] <AlanBell> ok
[20:40] <buzz_> anyway. compared to florence. onboard is just horrible. imho
[20:40] <AlanBell> not sure what the question is
[20:40] <buzz_> install florence from my ppa and try it
[20:40] <AlanBell> will do
[20:40] <buzz_> ppa:jools/joggler - built for oneiric
[20:41] <ali1234> buzz_: what do you think of mer?
[20:41] <AlanBell> would florence make a better default onscreen keyboard in your opinion?
[20:41] <buzz_> ali1234, still not tried it
[20:41] <ali1234> they have plasma active and cordia builds
[20:41] <buzz_> AlanBell, with some changes so it worked on login screen etc. yeh
[20:42] <buzz_> but just for typing on a touchscreen. it works better
[20:42] <AlanBell> caribou is another option under development, gnome are doing that one because onboard was not invented there
[20:42] <ali1234> and something called razor/QtDesktop
[20:42] <ali1234> onboard was *really* horrible last time i tried it
[20:42] <buzz_> AlanBell, florence on older ubuntu - http://joggler.exotica.org.uk/images/ubuntulinux3.png
[20:43] <buzz_> ali1234, it has a prettier look. but still feels sluggish to actually type on
[20:44] <AlanBell> I helped make onboard a bit less horrible (mostly cosmetically), it does have some decent features though
[20:47] <buzz_> the right/middle click is a useful improvement anyway, on top of the better looks. there is no doubt that onboard is more usable than before at least
[20:47] <buzz_> bbl food
[20:49] <AlanBell> so onboard has click helpers for touchscreens (right, middle and double click) and hover click
[20:50] <AlanBell> the keyboard adapts to different international layouts correctly (might be some bugs, but in general if you have an AZERTY keyboard or whatever it uses the keyboard layout you requested
[20:50] <AlanBell> there are full and compact keyboard options, plus a broken scanning mode keyboard (we discovered a week ago that space has always been mapped to 'e' so nobody has ever used that bit)
[20:51] <AlanBell> and there are different themes including one using ubuntu font and colours and logos on the super keys
[20:52] <ali1234> the main problem with it is it acts like a normal app so you have to shuffle it's window around all the time
[20:52] <AlanBell> yes, there is the minimise to a floating icon thing now
[20:52] <AlanBell> show floating icon when onboard is hidden
[20:53] <ali1234> i bet the desktop designers love that
[20:53] <AlanBell> then you can close it and prod the icon to open it and you can drag the big ugly icon about if it gets in the way
[20:54] <AlanBell> most of my efforts in a11y are around getting the desktop designers to give a crap one way or the other, so if they hate it then great :)
[20:56] <ubuntubhoy> the only problem with onboard I can see, is it should have an option to be on all workspaces
[20:56] <ubuntubhoy> if I open it on workspace 1, it should be available on all other workspaces I have
[20:56] <AlanBell> erm, it is
[20:56] <ubuntubhoy> not with gnome shell
[20:57] <ubuntubhoy> I have to select it from the notification bar
[20:57] <ubuntubhoy> so if I have it set to on-top, with floating icon it should be on all desktops
[20:58] <AlanBell> it follows me about on unity2d, and I think is on all workspaces in unity3d
[20:58] <ubuntubhoy> must be a bug with the way gnome shell handles dynamically
[20:58] <ubuntubhoy> workspaces ^^
[20:58] <AlanBell> you are using onboard from -proposed?
[20:58] <ubuntubhoy> yeah
[21:00] <AlanBell> must get that updated and released, it is just waiting for the scanning mode space/e fix and that is done in trunk
[21:02] <ubuntubhoy> there was an update a day or two ago, never looked to see what had changed
[21:02] <AlanBell> that might be it, I am just doing a big update on another machine to get it
[21:04] <Myrtti> AlanBell: I just realised something relating to the a11y thing
[21:06] <Myrtti> I'm very keen on audible bell, mine has been broken for years for some reason. If I set in Universal Access settings on the Hearing tab Visual alerts on, the screen flashes, if I'm in GnomeShell. Doesn't in Unity
[21:07] <AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, I know about that one :(
[21:07] <AlanBell> there is an utterly pathetic effect if you tell it to flash the window title bar
[21:07] <Myrtti> I could even swear I heard a bleep
[21:08] <AlanBell> we have a kind of plan to wire that up to a full screen compiz wobble or something
[21:08] <Myrtti> I miss the bleep
[21:10] <AlanBell> I did ask the onboard devs and all the other on screen keyboard devs I could find about multitouch but that was when utouch was first starting and nobody had any plans
[21:10] <AlanBell> would be good to get a steno type chorded multi touch keyboard in
[21:10] <ubuntubhoy> I have no multi-touch anyway
[21:11] <ubuntubhoy> I kinda want some accelerometer functionality though
[21:12] <Myrtti> ubuntubhoy: which device are you on?
[21:12] <ubuntubhoy> Dell Duo
[21:13] <Myrtti> alright
[21:13] <AlanBell> ah, no scanning mode has return, not space wired up to 'e' and it is still broken
[21:13] <Myrtti> I'm on ExoPC/Wetab myself
[21:13] <AlanBell> if you check the box to force window to top then it appears on all workspaces in unity 3d
[21:13] <Myrtti> in theory I've got multitouch, dunno why it doesn't work, all the instructions I've seen are super unhelpful
[21:14] <ubuntubhoy> for the Duo it broke when touch-helper went out of date
[21:15] <AlanBell> in terms of performance onboard seems fine on an Atom 330 with intel graphics
[21:16] <MarquessDeBonBon> AlanBell, my Welsh friend.
[21:16] <AlanBell> nope, not even a little bit Welsh :)
[21:17] <Myrtti> ubuntubhoy: http://myrtti.fi/blog/?p=922 written after using the tablet for a week
[21:18] <AlanBell> Myrtti: how would you like onboard to automatically hide/show?
[21:18] <AlanBell> and have you tried the show floating icon option?
[21:19] <ali1234> it should show when the focus is on a field that accepts text
[21:19] <AlanBell> and is that unity2d or 3d?
[21:19] <ali1234> and it should hide when it isn't
[21:19] <Myrtti> AlanBell: the icon just blocks the view, and yes, I expect it to work like ali1234 said
[21:19] <Myrtti> basically like the Gnome keyboard does in GnomeShell
[21:19] <Myrtti> or Maliit does in MeeGo
[21:19] <AlanBell> ok, that makes sense, would require atspi to be turned on
[21:19] <AlanBell> what gnome keyboard? caribou?
[21:20] <Myrtti> I suppose it's caribou, it just ... was there
[21:20] <Myrtti> I can only assume it isn't Maliit, because I couldn't install all the packages for it
[21:20] <AlanBell> I spent ages trying to compile caribou and gave up in disgust
[21:22] <AlanBell> I am a bit surprised you have onboard under unity
[21:23] <ali1234> users using ubuntu in the way it is intended to be used...
[21:23] <ali1234> shocking :)
[21:24] <AlanBell> I meant in terms of z-order
[21:24] <Myrtti> AlanBell: I don't actually mind it being there, it just gets in the way there tbh
[21:24] <AlanBell> onboard should always be able to be on top of the dash and type into the dash now
[21:24] <ali1234> unity draws over everything
[21:24] <AlanBell> ali1234: not onboard it doesn't any more
[21:24] <ali1234> the only thing that can have higher z-order than it is a focussed fullscreen window
[21:24] <AlanBell> or onboard
[21:26] <ubuntubhoy> Myrtti, 100% on the scroll bars - no good for fat fingers
[21:26] <ubuntubhoy> keep meaaning to download a more traditional theme with proper scroll bars
[21:26] <ubuntubhoy> -a
[21:26] <AlanBell> scroll bars are a broken concept with touchscreens really
[21:26] <ubuntubhoy> yeah
[21:27] <AlanBell> you need to drag or flick the content
[21:27] <ubuntubhoy> I use plug-ins for chromium and FF
[21:28] <ubuntubhoy> Myrtti, there is also an on-screen kehyboard that is part on gnome shell
[21:28] <ubuntubhoy> it nice to look at, but also has some issues
[21:28] <ubuntubhoy> like its anchored to the bottom of the screen
[21:29] <Myrtti> ubuntubhoy: yeah, I like how that one works much more than OnBoard
[21:29] <Myrtti> the thing that bugs me though is that I haven't figured out yet how to change it's layout
[21:29] <ubuntubhoy> it also covers the bottom of the screen
[21:29] <ubuntubhoy> transparent, but still covered
[21:29] <ubuntubhoy> rather than adjust the window size like the E keyboard does
[21:30] <ubuntubhoy> its the best I have tried so far
[21:30] <Myrtti> E keyboard?
[21:30] <Myrtti> I've just given up and hooked an USB keyboard back on the tablet when I'm doing anything else than watching videos
[21:31] <AlanBell> bug 443986
[21:31] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 443986 in smartphone "RFE: Add option to automatically show and hide onboard" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/443986
[21:32] <AlanBell> with the changes to at-spi it might be time to make that work
[21:32] <ubuntubhoy> Myrtti, the default keyboard for Enlightenment tablet mode
[21:32] <ubuntubhoy> try Bodhi Linux if you want a look
[21:33] <AlanBell> Myrtti or anyone else, can you take a screenshot of onboard below the unity dash?
[21:34] <ubuntubhoy> if you have no takers in 5 mins, I will log out and in to get you it
[21:34] <ali1234> do i have to use -proposed?
[21:34] <AlanBell> no, the one in oneiric main should be fine
[21:35] <ubuntubhoy> why does USB creator update so often in every new version
[21:35] <ali1234> uploading now
[21:36] <ali1234> i don't know but you don't need it any more
[21:36] <ali1234> you can now just dd the images directly to the usb drive
[21:36] <Myrtti> AlanBell: oo, I seem to have fiddled some settings right, it's not underneath now
[21:36] <ali1234> http://imagebin.org/183211
[21:45] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/onboard.png that is what it should look like, trying to figure out how it managed to get below the dash
[21:46] <ali1234> well my onboard looks nothing like that for a start
[21:47] <ubuntubhoy> thats the new version, without borders
[21:47] <ubuntubhoy> butt ugly default theme though
[21:50] <AlanBell> ubuntubhoy: help make it pretty
[21:50] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[21:50] <AlanBell> what should it look like to be less ugly?
[21:50] <AlanBell> I made that theme
[21:50] <ubuntubhoy> I use the droid theme
[21:50] <ubuntubhoy> nice dark and simple
[21:50] <ubuntubhoy> bit like me
[21:51] <ubuntubhoy> though not so dark with the Scottish weather
[21:51] <ubuntubhoy> the prob with the default is it looks icky sicky candy-ish with the purple/pink  & orange
[21:52] <AlanBell> yeah, I know, I have no aesthetic talent
[21:53] <AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/ before and after I got my hands on it
[21:54] <Myrtti> I'd want a proper IBM M beige one :-D
[21:54] <AlanBell> I was picking out colours from the branding toolkit to make it fit in with the overall Ubuntu branding
[21:54] <AlanBell> Myrtti: got a photo?
[21:54] <ubuntubhoy> yours is better AlanBell
[21:54] <ubuntubhoy> but...
[21:55] <ali1234> what are those big rectangles on the right for?
[21:55] <ubuntubhoy> hyou need to use some of the default Ubuntu plain dark transparent
[21:55] <AlanBell> they are now the abc and fn buttons
[21:56] <ubuntubhoy> look at your screeny
[21:56] <AlanBell> ali1234: nobody could see they were buttons because they look *nothing* like buttons and they do a confusing overlay
[21:56] <ubuntubhoy> dash is all dark
[21:56] <ali1234> OMG i just clicked it so confusing
[21:56] <Myrtti> AlanBell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard
[21:56] <AlanBell> ali1234: yeah, nasty isn't it
[21:57] <AlanBell> Myrtti: want the sound effects in too?
[21:57] <Myrtti> what annoys me most about onboard after it not autohiding itself is that the Enter-key is wrong shape, and the '-key is in wrong place. But I suppose that is difficult to implement
[21:58] <Myrtti> AlanBell: "KLONK KLONK"
[21:58] <AlanBell> no it is trivial to implement
[21:58] <AlanBell> the layout is an SVG file
[21:58] <AlanBell> what key is in the wrong place? -
[21:59] <Myrtti> I'll take some screenshots
[21:59] <bigcalm> Myrtti: I have a spare Unicomp kb if you want it. US layout sadly (which is why it's spare)
[21:59] <bigcalm> PS/2 connector
[22:00] <AlanBell> /usr/share/onboard/layouts/Full Keyboard-Alpha.svg
[22:01] <AlanBell> the SVG is just used for key positions, not detailed shapes and colours
[22:02] <ubuntubhoy> does the stock palette you work from include transparency ?
[22:04] <AlanBell> no, but there are some transparency options for the background(works) and whole window(doesn't work)
[22:05] <AlanBell> keys can only be rectangles at the moment :(
[22:11] <AlanBell> actually there is opacity in the colours files
[22:13] <AlanBell> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/ModelM.jpg/1024px-ModelM.jpg
[22:13] <mgdm> I used those in school
[22:13] <AlanBell> so a layout like that in as an option in Precise then Myrtti?
[22:13] <mgdm> terrible things
[22:13] <funkyHat> clicky clack
[22:14] <Myrtti> the colours please :-)
[22:16] <ubuntubhoy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6297429/unityvirtualbox.png
[22:16] <ubuntubhoy> your pic, but a little less sweet shop looking
[22:16] <AlanBell> yeah, we can do better than that
[22:17] <AlanBell> one thing to note, I wasn't aiming for pretty, I was aiming for the design team to notice that onboard is a part of their desktop
[22:18] <ubuntubhoy> as long as its easy to theme its not a big issue
[22:21] <AlanBell> also wanted higher contrast, especially on the main keys
[22:21] <AlanBell> hence bolder colours on the keys that you don't need to read the keycaps to know what they are
[22:22] <ubuntubhoy> I dont think thats really a biggie, just as its not on a physical keyboard
[22:23] <AlanBell> it was
[22:27] <ubuntubhoy> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1i7EX7a2ELY/TTkEklrBNFI/AAAAAAAAAkI/6ZhPHRv0m3I/s1600/170066_176439552392686_159133997456575_318606_5153473_o.jpg
[22:27] <ubuntubhoy> AlanBell, thats the Bodhi one, nice simple and works really well
[22:27] <ali1234> the letters are far too small
[22:27] <ubuntubhoy> simple changes
[22:28] <ali1234> and the vertical gaps are a different size to the horizontal gaps
[22:28] <ubuntubhoy> and I am sure it has another 100 faults
[22:28] <ali1234> and it is missing many important keys like how am i supposed to type numbers on that? i dn't even know
[22:28] <ubuntubhoy> it is in the simple mode
[22:28] <ubuntubhoy> full keyboard is available
[22:28] <Myrtti> AlanBell: http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/6326533727/
[22:29] <ali1234> full keyboard is no good either
[22:29] <ali1234> it needs a button to switch to entering numbers
[22:29] <ali1234> it doesn't have one
[22:29] <ubuntubhoy> yes it does
[22:29] <ali1234> or if it does, it has a terrible label
[22:29] <ubuntubhoy> the ABC on the top right
[22:29] <ubuntubhoy> gives full keyboaard
[22:29] <ali1234> that says ABC?
[22:29] <ubuntubhoy> yeah
[22:29] <ali1234> i thought it was just a random squiggle lol
[22:29] <ubuntubhoy> as I say, 100 other faults
[22:30] <ali1234> but like i said, full keyboard is no use
[22:30] <ubuntubhoy> why ?
[22:30] <ali1234> because there are too many keys and not enough screen space to display them all at once
[22:30] <ali1234> have any of you ever even used a smartphone?
[22:30] <ubuntubhoy> how small is your screen ?
[22:30] <ubuntubhoy> yes
[22:30] <ali1234> um... 4.2"?
[22:30] <ubuntubhoy> I would love Swiftkey
[22:31] <ubuntubhoy> on linux
[22:31] <Myrtti> AlanBell: comparing the Enter-key...
[22:32] <ubuntubhoy> ali1234, your is a very specialist problem, I am talking about general use
[22:32] <diplo> Anyone know anyone running IBM RS/6000 machines ?
[22:32] <ali1234> never heard of swiftkey. i would settle for something as good as the vkb in android
[22:32] <AlanBell> yeah, I see what you mean Myrtti, but it only does rectangular keys at the moment
[22:32] <AlanBell> and I have a hardware keyboard with a flat enter key
[22:33] <ali1234> lol. yes, smartphones are very specialist. they totally didn't sell 90 million of them last year
[22:33] <ali1234> (pulling numbers from my ass)
[22:33] <Myrtti> AlanBell: :-(
[22:33] <ubuntubhoy> Ubuntu on a smartphone is
[22:33] <AlanBell> I have an android phone, I have 4 keyboards installed, they all suck
[22:33] <ubuntubhoy> not many came with Ubuntu installed
[22:33] <ubuntubhoy> Try Swiftkey
[22:34] <ali1234> the actual number is probably 10x that :)
[22:34] <AlanBell> I found one hackers keyboard that can actually type the keys I want
[22:34] <AlanBell> but it totally fills the screen when landscape
[22:34] <ali1234> there's a reason why none of them came with ubuntu.... ubuntu is utterly useless on touchscreens :)
[22:34] <Myrtti> AlanBell: I have one extra installed. The one that I have to use even if I hate it - the one that has all the buttons on it. Sucks to be a Finn.
[22:34] <AlanBell> and swype is interesting, but useless
[22:34] <ubuntubhoy> the new version is not so bad for general use
[22:34] <ali1234> i don't like swype much but it is still better than anything ubuntu has
[22:34] <Myrtti> (with a stock android without an option of Finnish Swype or any other keyboard the manufacturer would have bundled)
[22:35] <ubuntubhoy> ali1234, try Swiftkey, its a month free trial iirc
[22:35] <ali1234> what is it for?
[22:35] <AlanBell> swype doesn't have ctrl key
[22:35] <Myrtti> what do you need that for :-D
[22:35] <AlanBell> ssh sessions
[22:36] <ubuntubhoy> ali1234, replacement android keyboard
[22:36] <Myrtti> right - my Nexus One trackball sends ctrl to irssi connectbot
[22:36] <ali1234> so android
[22:36] <Myrtti> I don't know if it does to plain connectbot too
[22:36] <ali1234> ok. is it in the market?
[22:36] <Myrtti> anyway
[22:37] <ali1234> installing it
[22:37] <ali1234> wow what have they done to the market
[22:38] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[22:38] <ali1234> it's really confusing now
[22:38] <ubuntubhoy> 3.3.11 I presume
[22:38] <ali1234> stupid google
[22:38] <ali1234> 3.3.11 what?
[22:38] <ubuntubhoy> market version
[22:38] <ali1234> i dunno
[22:39] <ubuntubhoy> Chromium/chrome web app store has went the same way
[22:39] <ubuntubhoy> tiles seem to be the in thing
[22:40] <Myrtti> gah, almost quarter to one, need to go to bed
[22:40] <Myrtti> good night
[22:40] <ali1234> bah, this is rubbish
[22:40] <ali1234> i can type faster than it accepts input
[22:40] <ali1234> that's the first fail of any vkb
[22:41] <ali1234> the theme lacks any kind of contrast, letters are too small... other than that it is identical to the android one
[22:41] <ubuntubhoy> nope
[22:41] <ubuntubhoy> the difference is in the word prediction
[22:41] <ubuntubhoy> theme can be changed
[22:41] <ali1234> the word prediction is rubbish
[22:42] <ubuntubhoy> turn off haptic for speed
[22:42] <ali1234> apparently "goox" is a word
[22:42] <ubuntubhoy> FFS give it time to learn your typing style
[22:42] <ali1234> i don't want to turn off haptic. haptic is necessary
[22:42] <ubuntubhoy> hve you let it learn from SMS, Twitter, Facebook
[22:43] <ali1234> no of course not
[22:43] <ali1234> i don't even use facebook or twitter
[22:43] <ubuntubhoy> but I guess you do use SMS
[22:43] <ali1234> and even if i did i would not give the password to johnny random vkb programmer
[22:43] <popey> I use SMS, but type full sentences.
[22:43] <ubuntubhoy> but you still write in your own style
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> you combine words that I maybe would not
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> so the keyboard learns your word patterns
[22:45] <ubuntubhoy> and ali1234 the world record speed typing for a phone was made using this keyboard
[22:45] <ali1234> i don't care, it runs very slow on my phone
[22:45] <ubuntubhoy> what handset ?
[22:46] <ali1234> galaxy S
[22:46] <ubuntubhoy> then it should not run slow
[22:46] <ali1234> argh how do i uninstall things with the stupid new market?
[22:47] <ubuntubhoy> the same way you did with the old one
[22:47] <ubuntubhoy> select it, then un-install
[22:47] <ali1234> in the old one i just went to "install apps" it was right there on the first page
[22:47] <ali1234> installed
[22:47] <ubuntubhoy> you might want to press menu to get your 'my apps'
[22:47] <ali1234> now it has been replaced by an advert for steve jobs biography
[22:48] <ali1234> all the themes are extremely low contrast :(
[22:49] <buzz_> i cant wait to see that long lost interview with steve jobs that will be shown at the cinema. im going to queue a week before hand to make sure i get a seat
[22:49] <ali1234> yeah that is not fishy at all
[22:50] <ali1234> he totally didn't find it 6 years ago and decide to save it until after jobs died
[22:50] <buzz_> heh
[22:50] <ali1234> hey this rom has swype in it
[22:51] <ubuntubhoy> has done since they first started selling them
[22:54] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/modelm.png
[22:54] <AlanBell> Myrtti: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/modelm.png
[22:55] <AlanBell> bit more to do on it
[22:56] <ubuntubhoy> thats nice
[22:58] <AlanBell> I also want to do a colour layout for teaching touch typing
[22:58] <popey> ooo i like that
[22:58] <AlanBell> which is I know a bit daft for an on-screen keyboard
[22:58] <ubuntubhoy> not really
[23:02] <AlanBell> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Touch_typing.svg like that
[23:04] <ubuntubhoy> as a theme option it would be fine
[23:04] <AlanBell> the model M layout should have the key lables in the top left corner of the key caps, that will need a patch to the code to selectively undo the code I wrote to put them in the middle
[23:07] <Myrtti> AlanBell: cool
[23:07] <Myrtti> gn
[23:07] <AlanBell> o/
[23:08] <AlanBell> I will tweak that a bit more and submit it upstream
[23:10] <diplo> gn all
[23:52] <andylockran> guys, anyone know how to scrl up on irssi in screen?
[23:53] <andylockran> :)
[23:54] <andylockran> I sorted it