[00:00] <cprofitt> #startmeeting ubuntu-beginners-team-november-meeting
[00:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 00:00:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is cprofitt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
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[00:00] <cprofitt> #topic general-discussion
[00:00] <cprofitt> Hello everyone. Please respond with 0/ are here.
[00:00] <IAmNotThatGuy> o/
[00:00] <Unit193> I refuse, I'm not here
[00:00] <MrChrisDruif> 0/
[00:00] <duanedesign> o/
[00:00] <pleia2> o/
[00:00] <AndrewMC> o/
[00:00] <Unit193> \0
[00:00] <IAmNotThatGuy> lol
[00:01] <cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone.
[00:01] <cprofitt> There have been a great many changes with our team over the past few months and we need to announce them, but first I would like to go over UDS-P and some of the broader topics in our community.
[00:01] <PabloRubianes> o/
[00:01] <cprofitt> There are two 'pads' I want to share with the group.
[00:01] <cprofitt> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19590/community-roundtable-friday/
[00:01] <cprofitt> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19344/community-leadership-summit-3/
[00:02] <cprofitt> we do not have to read through these tonight, but please bookmark those for later reading
[00:02] <cprofitt> Overall there is a feeling that was expressed in Jono's survey results that there has been too much 'red tape' in the community. The Beginners Team was victim to this as well. We want to get back to a "Just Do It" mentality.
[00:02] <IAmNotThatGuy> Sure
[00:02] <cprofitt> With that mentality goes a responsibility to think about one's actions and ensure that we stay positive or express criticsm in a constructive non-personal manner.
[00:02] <ashickur-noor> Ok
[00:02] <cprofitt> The beginners team council has been, to my knowledge, disbanded.
[00:03] <cprofitt> The team has been made open
[00:03] <cprofitt> and there is a desire to not use the mailing list as a forum for continued debate that degrades to 'bickering'
[00:03] <cprofitt> I am positive that all of us want to move forward and would like to put the last seven months behind us
[00:04] <IAmNotThatGuy> +1
[00:04] <MrChrisDruif> +1
[00:04] <ashickur-noor> +1
[00:04] <MrChrisDruif> (Ow, wasn't a vote ;-) )
[00:04] <jbicha> o/
[00:04] <IAmNotThatGuy> he he
[00:04] <IAmNotThatGuy> hi jbicha
[00:05] <cprofitt> I learned one important thing from Mark Shuttleworth this UDS
[00:05] <MrChrisDruif> Which was?
[00:06] <cprofitt> When I introduced him to Marek (bdfghjk) he asked what Marek liked to work on
[00:06] <cprofitt> Mark was not concerned with asking Marek to do something for Ubuntu... but what Marek liked doing
[00:06] <cprofitt> that helped clarify what made the BT a positive force in the Ubuntu eco system in the past
[00:07] <cprofitt> each person DID what they LOVED to do
[00:07] <IAmNotThatGuy> Exactly
[00:07] <cprofitt> they excelled because they were internally motivtaed to do something that scratched their own itch
[00:07] <cprofitt> that in turn helped others... but it did not feel like work and people were highly motivated
[00:07] <cprofitt> with that in mind I would like to ask people, in turn, what they WANT to do
[00:08] <cprofitt> Unit193: what would you like to do?
[00:09] <Unit193> I'm working on that, but I have done ISO testing with Xubuntu and a little with Lubuntu
[00:09] <Unit193> I will continue to do that
[00:09] <Unit193> I have also done support in channels, need to get into that better
[00:09] <cprofitt> so, to check my understading you are still finding what itch you like scratching the most
[00:10] <Unit193> Well, in a way
[00:10] <cprofitt> That is a fantastic answer... and one we will all end up hearing
[00:10] <cprofitt> Ubuntu is vastly different than the typical proprietary environment
[00:10] <cprofitt> so it is normal for people to 'find' their itch after exploring
[00:11] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: what is it that you want to do?
[00:12] <MrChrisDruif> I'm trying to find my way back into Ubuntu, as I've been away in the last months. Trying to help build UBT back to it's former glory looks like a great itch to scratch atm
[00:12]  * cprofitt nods
[00:13] <cprofitt> my only word of caution is that we not throw red-tape up
[00:13] <cprofitt> I fell in to that trap myself and it was non-productive
[00:13] <MrChrisDruif> Former glory is more then putting up red-tape
[00:13] <cprofitt> great to have you back MrChrisDruif and I look forward to you helping us reinvigorate the team
[00:13] <cprofitt> duanedesign: what do you want to do?
[00:14] <MrChrisDruif> That's more like it, invigorate the team.
[00:14] <duanedesign> MOTU
[00:14]  * cprofitt nods
[00:14] <cprofitt> MOTU
[00:14] <cprofitt> for those not familiar with MOTU can you share what that is duanedesign ?
[00:14] <duanedesign> they are the folks responsible for maintaining the universe repository
[00:15] <duanedesign> they keep a large portion of the packages we use in good shape
[00:15] <PabloRubianes> duanedesign, I want that too... and MrChrisDruif also
[00:15] <cprofitt> pleia2: what do you want to do?
[00:15] <PabloRubianes> the UBT was the greatest team arround....
[00:15] <pleia2> cprofitt: as of now, I am mostly going to be focused on continuing to recruit BT members for Classroom events
[00:15]  * cprofitt nods
[00:16] <cprofitt> classroom events are great opportunities for the community
[00:16] <cprofitt> AndrewMC: what do you want to do?
[00:16] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  what is can I ask question?
[00:16] <AndrewMC> I am trying to get more into bugs because I have this vision in my head, if when I am a pilot (I hope to be soon) I trust computers enough to fly my airplane, I want every system to be THAT bug free and dependable, probably sounds strange but its my "itch" to "scratch" :)
[00:17] <AndrewMC> I have gone idle recently and I am ready to get back going again
[00:17] <Unit193> pleia2: Announcements in channel help us actually attend too :)
[00:17]  * cprofitt nods
[00:17] <cprofitt> Very good AndrewMC, the community needs help with bugs and triage
[00:17] <pleia2> Unit193: indeed!
[00:17] <M0hi> Sorry. Bad machine
[00:17] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: please ask your question
[00:18] <ashickur-noor> What is classroomevent?
[00:18] <cprofitt> pleia2: can you take that one?
[00:18] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19590/community-roundtable-friday/
[00:18] <ashickur-noor> not working
[00:19] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: you may have to login with your launchpad ID and enable scripts if you are running no-script
[00:19] <cprofitt> I can help with the link after the meeting if that did not help
[00:19] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: I hvae loged in
[00:19] <pleia2> ashickur-noor: Classroom is a project where we do IRC-based learning sessions in #ubuntu-classroom https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[00:19] <ashickur-noor> another link works gr8
[00:20] <cprofitt> we lost Iam...
[00:20] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: what do you want to do?
[00:20] <Unit193> cprofitt: M0hi is still here, jsut bad connection
[00:21] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt,  I want Motu for me, and working to help spanish speaking community to become less alienated from english
[00:22] <PabloRubianes> is not english fault but is like two worlds and we are just one
[00:22] <cprofitt> I think the Loco Council and CC are working on that with language teams as well PabloRubianes
[00:22] <cprofitt> your work will be much apprecaited
[00:22] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, lots of great people are left behind for this... languaje thing
[00:22] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: what do you want to do?
[00:22] <PabloRubianes> it's a shame
[00:22] <zkriesse> Meeting?
[00:22] <zkriesse> :D
[00:23] <PabloRubianes> so work needs to be done
[00:23] <pleia2> PabloRubianes: we could do a better job of coordinating the classrooms, sorry we've not done so well on it this past year
[00:23] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: I believe we will work toward correcting that... and everyone that can help will be much appreciated
[00:23] <ashickur-noor> I am currently thinking to make some video tuto for my community
[00:23] <cprofitt> zkriesse: yes, meeting... welcome and thanks for coming
[00:23] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt:
[00:23] <M0hi> PabloRubianes, LoCos can try concentrating on that. Lets starts from Uruguay ;)
[00:23] <zkriesse> cprofitt: ;)
[00:23] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: Great. I have done a couple of tutorials... including one on how to make a tutorial
[00:24] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: can you give me link?
[00:24] <PabloRubianes> M0hi, we are working with argentina one
[00:24] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: yes...
[00:24] <M0hi> PabloRubianes, cool
[00:24] <cprofitt> M0hi: what do you want to do?
[00:24] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: one question regarding that
[00:25] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Tn3Z8OklQ
[00:25] <cprofitt> go ahead ashickur-noor
[00:25] <ashickur-noor> It's about voice
[00:25] <ashickur-noor> my voice is so bad
[00:25] <M0hi> Currently, I was not able to spend the time that I've spent before 8 months. I just have one wave running in my mind, saying me that UBT is there and nothing to worry. I just want that wave live forever =]
[00:26] <ashickur-noor> So what can I do about the Voice?
[00:26] <M0hi> I am now restricted with the time I spend. But I will help in documentation and the blueprint of our team
[00:26] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I am not really sure about that... I am not fond of my voice, but I do my best
[00:27] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  and describing something do always worst for me
[00:27] <cprofitt> fantastic M0hi; one key aspect of being a leader in the community is realizing what you can and can not do...
[00:27] <cprofitt> I respect that you are busy and glad that you acknowledge that as well
[00:27] <cprofitt> it is important for people to be realistic with what they can take on
[00:27] <cprofitt> zkriesse: what do you want to do?
[00:28] <zkriesse> sorry i gotta run
[00:28] <zkriesse> Not what I intended
[00:28] <cprofitt> no problem zkriesse
[00:28] <cprofitt> alright...
[00:28] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: nice Idea
[00:28] <cprofitt> so I have asked you all that question, but now I need to answer it
[00:28] <zkriesse> Folks are asking me to run to the store so off I go :P
[00:29] <zkriesse> cprofitt: I'll pm you later in response to this?
[00:29] <cprofitt> I originally migrated to Ubuntu to learn programming that was not Windows oriented... I am, at my day job, a systems administrator and used to helping folks.
[00:29] <cprofitt> I did a lot of that and also found that there was not an active community in my area
[00:29] <ashickur-noor> I have something big in my mind but need help
[00:29] <cprofitt> I started doing help and community building and did not have time for programming
[00:30] <M0hi> ashickur-noor, After charles =]
[00:30] <cprofitt> so one of my focuses for this next six months is to add 'programming' back in to my things to do
[00:30] <cprofitt> as it is the original 'itch' I had and one I did not scratch for three years
[00:31] <cprofitt> At the same time I learned that I truly love to help and build the community
[00:31] <cprofitt> so one other thing to keep in mind is that the journey may twist in ways you do not expect
[00:31] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  I am as like you
[00:31] <cprofitt> just make sure to enjoy the journey
[00:31] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, I agree
[00:31] <M0hi> +1
[00:32] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: what is the big thing you wanted to mention
[00:32] <PabloRubianes> so I think is time to start over? but with GREAT ATTITUDE!
[00:33] <cprofitt> coalwater: what do you want to do?
[00:33] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  arranging some program in my Country
[00:33] <ashickur-noor> called ``Ubuntu Day''
[00:33]  * cprofitt listens
[00:33] <Unit193> coalwater is on phone
[00:33] <ashickur-noor> but I have no idea what think I do for that
[00:34] <coalwater> about what, I just joined
[00:34] <Unit193> coalwater: WHat do you want to do in the community?
[00:34] <MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; Not to burst any bubbles, more to give you direction: we've got the Ubuntu Global Jam already, maybe worth looking into?
[00:34] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I am not sure about how to do that either, but randall ross from vancouver would be a fantastic resource for that
[00:34] <coalwater> umm , I like solving bugs lol
[00:34] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: https://launchpad.net/~rrnwexec
[00:35] <cprofitt> try contacting him... he has a passion that will astound and a great deal of experience organizing large events
[00:35] <ashickur-noor> +1
[00:35] <coalwater> I really liked 'lernid'
[00:35] <cprofitt> the Ubuntu France team is also incredible with what they do
[00:35] <M0hi> ashickur-noor, I just saw you idling in #ubuntu-bd team. Just try to pull in more people, market about IRC and get visitors, Start planning for an activity and bring it on
[00:35] <ashickur-noor> OK I will
[00:36] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I will say... just start and event... even if you only get two people to show up you got it off the ground and it can grow
[00:36] <cprofitt> that is what I did in my area
[00:36] <ashickur-noor> M0hi: I told you last night ubuntu-bd members are too busy
[00:36] <M0hi> cprofitt, So, are we going to discuss about the ideas accepted before and the action items?
[00:36] <cprofitt> alright... so our new moto is...
[00:36] <cprofitt> JUST
[00:36] <cprofitt> DO
[00:36] <cprofitt> IT
[00:37] <M0hi> I need a like button here ;]
[00:37] <cprofitt> M0hi: I am not sure what has been accepted and not...
[00:37] <coalwater> what kind of things for the community are we talking about
[00:37] <ashickur-noor> they are even not free in weekdays
[00:37] <cprofitt> from my understanding most of the structure was removed
[00:37] <ashickur-noor> +1
[00:37] <Unit193> coalwater: Support, devel, bugs, etc. Anything you can think of really
[00:37] <ashickur-noor> M0hi: do we have a FB page?
[00:38] <cprofitt> I think the message bodhi wanted to get out is to not worry about strucutre... just engage with what you like to do
[00:38] <Mohan_chml> Sorry for my connections
[00:38] <MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; how about the council? Does it still exist?
[00:38] <coalwater> o ok,thought we were talking about events only
[00:38] <Mohan_chml> Let me shortly tell all the -restructuring plans
[00:38] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: No, the council does not exist
[00:39] <Mohan_chml> 1) There will be no members and council. We all are equal and anyone can come forward and propose his/her plan.
[00:39] <Mohan_chml> They can work on that Idea and can get volunteers for their work
[00:39] <AndrewMC> but there is still someone in authority to deal with those plans? if not how does that work
[00:40] <Unit193> Group mentorship
[00:40] <cprofitt> AndrewMC: the person making the proposal will be in charge of their plans
[00:40] <coalwater> wont that slow decision making?
[00:40] <ashickur-noor> AndrewMC:  I agree with you
[00:40] <coalwater> the no council
[00:40] <Mohan_chml> AndrewMC, If you post an idea, then you are owner of that idea. So, Just try it  out instead of asking for a vote. If you succeed, we all succeed
[00:40] <cprofitt> if there is a dispute any respected member of the group can help to resolve it
[00:41] <cprofitt> Mohan_chml: +1
[00:41] <cprofitt> we do not want stagnation because a person with a great idea needs to ask permission
[00:41] <Mohan_chml> AndrewMC, Its like wasting an idea by voting
[00:41] <cprofitt> I would rather re-direct a little bit than have no action and discouraged members
[00:41]  * AndrewMC will have to look into this for his own team to possibly implemet
[00:41] <AndrewMC> sounds interesting
[00:42] <cprofitt> it is really the roots of the UBT as I knew it
[00:42] <cprofitt> If you want to be an app developer and have a great idea for an app... do it
[00:42] <cprofitt> ask for folks who are also interested to help you
[00:42] <cprofitt> if you run in to issues, ask for help from folks
[00:42] <Unit193> Although feedback can help...
[00:42] <cprofitt> if you need testers... ask for help
[00:42] <Mohan_chml> Unit193, +1
[00:43] <AndrewMC> I see
[00:43] <cprofitt> if there is a dispute ask a person you respect
[00:43] <cprofitt> there is no need for a specific person to be 'in charge'
[00:43] <AndrewMC> Well I will have ot consider this for my team, it sounds like a really good idea actually :)
[00:43] <cprofitt> we have many respected members that can be brought in to offer advice or help if you run in to a wall
[00:44] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: then they should be listed
[00:44] <AndrewMC> eye
[00:44] <Mohan_chml> let me continue the proposal or plan we had in the mind
[00:44] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: no, each of us should get to know the people we trust
[00:44] <ashickur-noor> it will help newbe like me
[00:44] <MrChrisDruif> Mohan_chml; go on...
[00:44] <cprofitt> leave the lists for things like the CC and Loco Council
[00:45] <cprofitt> ashickur-noor: spend time in our irc channel... ask others who they would ask for help
[00:45] <iMichealH> cprofitt: PM?
[00:45] <cprofitt> no need for a static list
[00:45] <ashickur-noor> cprofitt: oh, I understood now
[00:45] <cprofitt> iMichealH: sure
[00:45] <cprofitt> if there is a list then there is a chance people might be away for a week
[00:45] <cprofitt> and your question get old... we need to act like a community... get to know each other...
[00:45] <Mohan_chml> 2) There will be no voting as I said before. It will 'IDEAS' and 'ACTIONS'. The person who proposes can take the ownership of that idea or if he is not having time, he can give the ownership to someone who will be one working on that idea
[00:45] <cprofitt> have multiple people we can ask for help from
[00:46] <Mohan_chml> He/she can get volunteers to work on that idea as we mentioned before
[00:48] <Mohan_chml> 3) The team is "Open". There is no membership. Anyone can join UBT at anytime and serve our ultimate goal. "Help the beginners"
[00:48] <ashickur-noor> Mohan_chml:  nice one
[00:49] <Mohan_chml> 4) We are looking for the support from the whole Ubuntu community to help us work on the Focus groups, by providing some of their time in mentoring people and guiding them to contribute in the future.
[00:49] <Mohan_chml> for this, we need volunteers to act as a bridge between UBT and other Community FGs
[00:50] <cprofitt> Mohan_chml: and this time we will not require respected members of other teams wait several weeks or months to get approved... so hopefully we can build that support
[00:50] <Mohan_chml> okay
[00:51] <cprofitt> that is one of the benefits of an open team... in the past due to red tape it took too long and some people lost their energy to assist
[00:51] <cprofitt> people should understand that as we ask for help... some folks may still think we are closed... so we have to ensure they know that is not the case anymore
[00:51] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, that idea kinda eludes me
[00:51] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: what do you mean?
[00:51] <Mohan_chml> The FG mentoring structure will be decided in later meetings once we identify POC and the people from the community to start the FG shine
[00:52] <MrChrisDruif> We still have FG's?
[00:52] <Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, That is secondary
[00:52] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I think that is still in the process of being decided...
[00:52] <Mohan_chml> Our primary goal is "Help the beginners"
[00:52] <cprofitt> we may or may not have formal teams... but there are areas of focus
[00:52] <cprofitt> regardless of 'strucutre'
[00:52] <ashickur-noor> FG's whit it is btw?
[00:52] <cprofitt> if duanedesign wants to become MOTU he will focus on that
[00:53] <cprofitt> and can help others obtain that goal as well... so that will be his focus
[00:53] <popey>  /lastlog Andre_Gondim
[00:53] <ashickur-noor> and what is MOTU?
[00:53] <popey> bah!
[00:53] <cprofitt> and those working with him would be a focus group.. informally or formally
[00:53] <cprofitt> hey popey!!
[00:53] <popey> hey
[00:53] <MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; FG = Focus Groups, MOTU = Masters Of The Universe
[00:53] <Mohan_chml> So, we need people for certain places
[00:54] <cprofitt> we really want people to get re-energized and worry about strucutre later
[00:54] <AndrewMC> MrChrisDruif: beat me to it :P
[00:54] <duanedesign> ashickur-noor: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[00:54] <Mohan_chml> 1) A Person to update the wiki regarding the meetings and the ctions happening in UBT
[00:54] <cprofitt> we definately need a person to do that Mohan_chml
[00:54] <Mohan_chml> is there any volunteer stepping forward for that?
[00:54] <Mohan_chml> cprofitt, ;)
[00:54] <cprofitt> no one said they were interested in that Mohan_chml
[00:55] <cprofitt> are you willing to take that on until we find a person who wants to do that
[00:55] <Mohan_chml> Okay then. I will take that on my plate
[00:55] <cprofitt> I can share that with you if needed too
[00:55] <cprofitt> I do not want to burden people with minutia unless they want to do it... as in WANT to do it
[00:55] <Mohan_chml> cprofitt, #action it over me and I will ping you if I feel of failing =]
[00:56] <cprofitt> #action Mohan_chml will update the BT pages with meeting minutes
[00:56] <meetingology> ACTION: Mohan_chml will update the BT pages with meeting minutes
[00:56] <cprofitt> #action cprofitt will be his second or fallback
[00:56] <meetingology> ACTION: cprofitt will be his second or fallback
[00:56] <MrChrisDruif> I might be able to help Mohan_chml , just ping me if you need help
[00:56] <Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, Sure =]
[00:56] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: is that what you WANT to do?
[00:57] <Mohan_chml> if so, put him first then cprofitt
[00:57] <cprofitt> I want to make sure everyone has high motivation for doing things... and are not locked down with 'tasks' that feel more like work
[00:57] <Unit193> I can easily paste the stuff meetingology spits out
[00:57] <MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; I've done wiki's in the past, so it's not too much to ask
[00:57] <cprofitt> if you truly want to do that... we can make you first MrChrisDruif
[00:57] <MrChrisDruif> xD
[00:58] <Mohan_chml> Unit193, you have to edit them :P
[00:58] <Mohan_chml> cprofitt, Put him first and we can back him up
[00:58] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I will put you first
[00:58] <MrChrisDruif> It's not like I'm jumping to do it, I just could help lighten the burden cprofitt
[00:58] <cprofitt> #action MrChrisDruif will take primary role of posting meeting minutes
[00:58] <meetingology> ACTION: MrChrisDruif will take primary role of posting meeting minutes
[00:58] <Mohan_chml> And we need a separate volunteer to monitor the wiki pages and report the out dated contents
[00:59] <cprofitt> alright
[00:59] <cprofitt> lets remember to keep motivated... and just do it...
[00:59] <cprofitt> no need to ask for permission
[00:59] <ashickur-noor> I can do that
[00:59] <Mohan_chml> Also, it will eb better if we have Unit193 to update the next meeting date both on wiki and the channels
[00:59] <cprofitt> I would like to thank Unit193, MrChrisDruif, duanedesign, pleia2, AndrewMC, IAmNotThatGuy, PabloRubianes, ashickur-noor, Mohi, MichaelH, zkriesse, coalwater, Mohan_chml, popey for coming and participating in the meeting
[01:00] <cprofitt> I hope to see you all next meeting
[01:00] <Mohan_chml> ashickur-noor, Thanks. Just stick with me or Unit193 who knows about the basic changes
[01:00] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[01:00] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 01:00:16 2011 UTC.
[01:00] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-00.00.moin.txt
[01:00] <MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; thank you for leading this meeting, I've got the utmost respect for you
[01:00] <ashickur-noor> ok
[01:00] <cprofitt> thanks MrChrisDruif
[01:00] <MrChrisDruif> Damn, I wanted that IN the meeting =P
[01:00] <Mohan_chml> cprofitt, Thanks dude. You did awesome =]
[01:00] <cprofitt> did the logs link post for everyone?
[01:00] <cprofitt> Mohan_chml: thanks
[01:01] <MrChrisDruif> I've got the link
[01:01] <cprofitt> great.
[01:01] <ashickur-noor> me too
[01:01] <Unit193> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-00.00.moin.txt
[01:01] <cprofitt> Try to post the logs on the wiki and then send an email to the list to alert people that they are there
[01:01] <cprofitt> let us take any addiitional business to our own team channel and clear the channel for any others using it
[01:01] <Unit193> Might be best to have announcements at the end (if there are any)
[01:02] <cprofitt> Unit193: I agree... we should list announcements on meeting agenda pages too
[01:02] <MrChrisDruif> Right, let's find that mailing-list again =)
[01:02] <Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, and Unit193 you are responsible for meeting minutes :P make sure that the message is delivered
[01:02] <Mohan_chml> lol
[01:03] <Mohan_chml> In the mean time, I will bring/propose a structure for the contents of the UBT wiki
[01:04] <Unit193> MrChrisDruif: You've got the wiki/ML? Or I could paste it up on the wiki
[01:04] <MrChrisDruif> ML?
[01:05] <MrChrisDruif> I'll paste the moin.txt on wiki
[01:05] <Unit193> Mailing
[01:05] <Mohan_chml> back to -team to discuss please
[01:05] <Unit193> Yeppers
[01:06] <MrChrisDruif> Ow, btw....next time put it in the Fridge also!!!
[01:06] <MrChrisDruif> Woops
[01:06] <Mohan_chml> lol
[01:32] <M0hi> err
[11:07] <amithkk> !
[16:01]  * slangasek waves
[16:01]  * stgraber waves
[16:01]  * slangasek finds his way back to IRC after logout
[16:02] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 16:02:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[16:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:02] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt ev bdmurray slangasek)
[16:02] <slangasek> bdmurray stgraber barry jhunt ev cjwatson doko slangasek
[16:02] <slangasek> ah, topic first :P
[16:03] <slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
[16:03] <slangasek> and go :)
[16:03] <ev> whoops, missed that.  Who am I after?
[16:03] <cjwatson> ev: jhunt
[16:03] <ev> cool, thanks
[16:03] <bdmurray> Attended UDS P in Orlando Florida
[16:03] <bdmurray> updating blueprints with notes from UDS Precise
[16:03] <bdmurray> investigation into bug 882255 regarding passwordless login and changing of password
[16:03] <bdmurray> added lp_work_item_editor to firefox-lp-improvements
[16:03] <bdmurray> uploaded new version of firefox-lp-improvements
[16:03] <bdmurray> review of Oneiric nominations for foundations packages
[16:03] <bdmurray> update bug bot to deal with bugs with gzipped attachments better
[16:03] <bdmurray> wrote bug bot function to comment on no package bug reports
[16:04] <bdmurray> done
[16:04] <stgraber> - UDS last week
[16:04] <stgraber> - Looked a bit at bug 876829 (few patches around, none really fixing the issue) and bug 823366 (need to do some testing)
[16:04] <stgraber> - Testing tracker work
[16:04] <stgraber>  - http://91.189.93.73 is usually up to date with what's in the branch
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Secured the XML-RPC API (authentication using a login on the website + a key in the user profile)
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Initial work on notifications
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Changed theme to gain more screen space
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Merged initial report from Jean-Baptiste
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Update schema and API to support multiple result per user with link to hardware profile and a note with each build (rebuild reason)
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Improved migration/upgrade scripts
[16:04] <stgraber> - Played a bit trying to get upstart:i386 to install on my laptop, uploaded most of its dependencies to my PPA but still won't work. Will poke slangasek :)
[16:04] <stgraber> - TODO
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Get a test environment for bug 823366
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Get a test environment for iscsi, then look at the open-iscsi merge (hopefully fixing a few bugs in the process)
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Continue testing tracker work, now working on finishing the user UI and notifications
[16:04] <stgraber>  - Make sure all my blueprints are up to date on LP (should be) and cleanup the work items list a bit
[16:05] <stgraber> (done)
[16:07] <barry> since uds-p: merged claws, claws-plugins patches from official PPA; bug 884890; working on blueprints; start investigating python 3 for update manager and python-dbus; done.
[16:07] <barry>  
[16:08] <slangasek> jhunt: you're up
[16:08] <jhunt> UDS last week (still recovering!). This week have worked on updating the
[16:08] <jhunt> cookbook and going the bugs (had some significant contributions from the
[16:08] <jhunt> community which is great!!) Worked on a fix for bug 829980 - currently
[16:08] <jhunt> awaiting feedback on my ppa build from users with "dodgy" battery
[16:08] <jhunt> hardware. Plan then to merge pad data -> blueprints, and finish rework
[16:08] <jhunt> on job logging.
[16:08] <jhunt> ⟌
[16:09] <jhunt> soz - didn't see the end marker :)
[16:09] <ev> - Getting back up to speed after UDS.  Filed expenses, filled out the survey.
[16:09] <ev> - Discussion with Robert around the replacement Launchpad OOPS system he's
[16:09] <ev>   building, using Cassandra as a backend.  Set up a call with him to brain
[16:09] <ev>   dump the results of our UDS discussions on the crash DB for Thursday night.
[16:09] <ev> - Helping someone from the XMBC team get ubiquity working on their stripped
[16:09] <ev>   down live CD.
[16:09] <ev> - Blueprints and workitems drafting.
[16:09] <ev> - Trying to get an apport-retracer instance up and running in the Canonicloud.
[16:09] <ev> - Looking at AMQP vs Cassandra's asynchronous triggers as a way of triggering
[16:09] <ev>   retraces of submitted crashes.
[16:09] <ev> (done)
[16:10] <slangasek> jhunt: understandable, since he cheesed out and didn't use unicode :)
[16:10] <jhunt> tsk tsk!
[16:10] <slangasek> ev: what's XMBC expand to?
[16:10] <ev> xbox media center
[16:11] <ev> XMBC*
[16:11] <ev> err XBMC
[16:11] <slangasek> ah, ok
[16:11] <ev> apparently I just cannot type that acronym
[16:11] <cjwatson> Getting the +1 maintenance team going: this month it's me, mterry, and cyphermox once he gets back from vacation.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Lots of build fixes and transitions and the like.  Broke cmake/armel (not my fault!), analysed and reported the compiler bug that broke it, and worked around it.  Broke yelp and fixed it.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Patch pilot on Tuesday morning.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Fixed casper bug 882308 by request of OEM^WPES.
[16:11] <cjwatson> Experimenting with multiarch cross-building.  I at least seem to have a usable chroot now and have fixed a few packages as a result.
[16:12] <cjwatson> We almost have the new stonking cdimage master machine!  Working with IS on getting it set up properly, and doing some preparatory work on antimony.
[16:12] <cjwatson> Drafted foundations-p-image-build-pipeline.  Three or so more to do.
[16:12] <cjwatson> --
[16:13] <slangasek> ah, and doko's off this week, so it's just me
[16:14] <slangasek> halfway through my own blueprint drafting
[16:14] <slangasek> upgraded to precise this week, have started reporting bugs
[16:14] <slangasek> filed bugs for the various unity2d inconveniences I hadn't gotten around to reporting before
[16:14] <slangasek> merged console-setup, will try to forward some changes upstream later to reduce our delta
[16:14] <slangasek> merged user-setup
[16:14] <slangasek> pushed a patch to sbuild so that it understands multiarch build-dep syntax
[16:14] <slangasek> worked on checking the multiarch cross-buildability of a few packages in the base system
[16:14] <slangasek> got bored with that and decided to go straight for qt4-x11 instead; pushed a bunch of M-A patches
[16:14] <slangasek> (done)
[16:15] <slangasek> anyone have questions?
[16:16] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
[16:16] <slangasek> bdmurray: anything of interest from your side?
[16:17] <bdmurray> Only one bug 834516 which you've touched recently
[16:18] <slangasek> cjwatson, ev, stgraber: have you seen any other reports of that issue?
[16:19] <stgraber> not that I can remember.
[16:20] <cjwatson> nor I
[16:20] <bdmurray> I don't see "Cannot get ecryptfs version" in any ubiquity bug report log files
[16:20] <slangasek> huh
[16:21] <cjwatson> although it rings a bell, I think I remember fixing something similar
[16:21] <bdmurray> InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Alpha amd64 (20110817)
[16:21] <slangasek> oh, it was installed from an alpha?  should we close this out as fixed?
[16:22] <bdmurray> Well should ubiquity have stopped at that point?
[16:22] <cjwatson> hm, I was thinking of bug 820460 which was different
[16:22] <jrgifford> there was this bug, which is the exact opposite. - bug #840570
[16:23] <slangasek> heh
[16:24] <slangasek> stgraber: do you think you could follow up on this and see what the source of that error message is?  I'll bet it was a problem with the actual kernel during the alpha and should be closed
[16:24] <bdmurray> I mean it seems wrong to me for the installation to have proceeded even though ecryptfs wasn't available.
[16:24] <stgraber> slangasek: yep, I can do that
[16:24] <cjwatson> hmm
[16:25] <cjwatson> we || true the adduser call I think because it's possible that the user might already exist in some contenxts
[16:25] <cjwatson> *contexts
[16:25] <slangasek> bdmurray: ah, true
[16:25] <cjwatson> I agree that we shouldn't proceed if it's clearly broken; we just need to be careful not to go too far the other way
[16:25] <slangasek> so we shouldn't just close the bug anyway, we ought to communicate the missing encryption to the user
[16:25] <slangasek> stgraber: still yours if you want it :)
[16:26] <cjwatson> (that || true is very old; I think it may date back to base-config)
[16:27] <cjwatson> it's in r1 of user-setup
[16:27] <stgraber> slangasek: I can certainly add that to my low priority list :) If we skip the user creation, we should at least show a warning I'd think
[16:29] <slangasek> stgraber: I think it's a high urgency to confirm that the underlying issue is fixed in the final release, and low urgency (but not low priority) to not silently skip encryption
[16:30] <stgraber> slangasek: sounds good
[16:30] <slangasek> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
[16:30] <slangasek> I think this link has been passed around; hopefully everyone has seen it
[16:31] <ev> fancy pant
[16:31] <ev> s
[16:31] <slangasek> this is the list of bugs that I've committed you to fix for the release so far :P
[16:32] <slangasek> there are 33 tasks on there for foundations... which is high, but I don't see any bugs on that list that I think are ok for us to ship with
[16:32] <slangasek> if you disagree you can argue it :), but I'd much rather we focus on getting them fixed
[16:33] <slangasek> since this is an LTS and we're emphasizing quality, the list reflects that
[16:33] <barry> slangasek: is there a difference between "Canonical Foundations Team" and "Ubuntu Foundations Team"?
[16:33] <slangasek> barry: two different teams in launchpad, the latter includes some community folks
[16:33]  * barry nods
[16:34] <slangasek> so the challenge I'd like to set for the team is to get 20 of those bugs fixed by the end of the year
[16:35] <slangasek> no reason to wait until after FF to start fixing them :)
[16:35] <slangasek> what do you think?
[16:36] <cjwatson> it can't hurt to try; do you have the current set recorded somewhere so that tracking won't be thrown off by additions?
[16:36] <slangasek> not yet, but I'll snapshot it today
[16:36] <slangasek> there are a lot of installer bugs on there to go around, fwiw
[16:37] <slangasek> so anyone who isn't already familiar with the installer and would like to learn more, now's your chance :)
[16:37] <jhunt> those two plymouth bugs are the same issue. Would it make sense to make one a dup of another?
[16:38] <jhunt> only reason I say that being some folks have expressed the view that they don't get notified of changes to the bug their bug is a dup of.
[16:38] <slangasek> I don't remember why they wound up split
[16:39] <slangasek> I think it was because the issue was rereported (849414) in a later release than when we thought we'd fixed it
[16:39] <slangasek> jhunt: if you merge them, please make sure the bug description of the master says something sensible :)
[16:39] <jhunt> slangasek: righto.
[16:39] <slangasek> (e.g., reproduce instructions)
[16:40] <slangasek> cjwatson: that reminds me... is there anything other than ^C that would generate SIGINT on console?
[16:40] <cjwatson> some random keycode or other with the console in raw mode
[16:40] <slangasek> heh
[16:41] <slangasek> just trying to figure out if the bodgy SIGINT handler in the plymouth theme really does explain all the problems we've seen, or if as upstream says there's some other issue
[16:41] <cjwatson> much like, er is it Enter?, turns into SIGQUIT
[16:41] <jhunt> slangasek: I've got a systemtap script that logs all SIGINTs system wide if anyone has a system that actually exhibits the plymouth failure on those bugs.
[16:41] <slangasek> jhunt: \o/
[16:42] <slangasek> jhunt: we should probably take upstream's advice and nix the SIGINT handler anyway, and then see if the problem goes away
[16:42] <jhunt> Taking a closer look at the sigint handler, it *does* look safe which is even more mysterious. The only way I've managed to recreate the issue is to fire SIGINTs at plymouthd semi-randomly.
[16:42] <jhunt> right. All the plugins have the same code seemingly (copy'n'paste.. ? :)
[16:42] <slangasek> :)
[16:43] <jhunt> I'm just not sure what the implications of removing that handler are for the plugins - it's not as if the handlers aren't doing anything.
[16:43] <cjwatson> I don't agree that all of them are safe
[16:44] <cjwatson> looking at the script handler as an arbitrary example, it frees memory in a signal handler, which is unsafe
[16:44] <slangasek> the implication is that ^C does nothing, which seems reasonable anyway
[16:44] <slangasek> and consistent with the other themes
[16:44] <jhunt> are you sure? I was thrown off track initially as the handlers themselves do dangerous things like modifying linked lists. *But* the handlers are not called when the signal arrives - they are called on the next main loop iteration.
[16:44] <cjwatson> oh, except that the signal handler doesn't work that way
[16:45] <cjwatson> you're right, I missed the indirection through the event loop
[16:45] <jhunt> so, in principle it *should* be perfectly safe.
[16:45] <jhunt> yeah - it's a mare of code layers.
[16:45] <cjwatson> well
[16:45] <jhunt> all the handlers do is write the signal number through a pipe and return.
[16:45] <cjwatson> ply_write calls assert
[16:46] <cjwatson> assert is not async-signal-safe
[16:46] <jhunt> oooh!
[16:46] <cjwatson> although that should only actually matter if the assert fails, I think
[16:46] <cjwatson> and if that happened then it would fall over anyway
[16:46] <slangasek> well, we do have failing asserts in some of the reports
[16:46] <jhunt> frankly, I wish there were more asserts ther. No alloc calls are ever checked if I recall.
[16:47] <jhunt> however, they would segv fast I'd hope as the address is immediately dereferenced
[16:47]  * slangasek nods
[16:47] <jhunt> hope not being a word I like to use in combo with programming... :)
[16:47] <slangasek> ok, we can chew on that more offline :)
[16:47] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:47] <jhunt> right
[16:47] <slangasek> anything else?
[16:47]  * cjwatson tries to find the list of async-signal-safe functions; I keep losing it
[16:48] <jhunt> can anyone offer any thoughts on bug 861268?
[16:48] <slangasek> jhunt: did you not manage to pin down the X guys at UDS?
[16:48] <slangasek> or did they tell you "oh yeah, binary driver, not our problem"? :)
[16:49] <cjwatson> oh, there we go, it's buried in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04
[16:49] <bdmurray> Looking at recent ubiquity bugs some seem to be about Natty.  I wonder if people are installing it thinking it is the latest.  Or if commenting on them and pointing them to 11.10 makes sense.
[16:49] <jhunt> slangasek: semi - I spoke to Chris who thought it could relate to the nvidia driver, but the nouveau driver behaves in the same way.
[16:49] <cjwatson> send() and write() are async-signal-safe, so I've got nothing else that would break in that way
[16:49] <ev> bdmurray: please point them at 11.10
[16:49] <slangasek> +1
[16:49] <ev> we don't fix bugs in non-LTS releases post-release
[16:49] <jhunt> cjwatson: I've got some tools and scripts that we can use to try and pin this down. Might be worth a bit of pair-debugging?
[16:50] <ev> for ubiquity, that is
[16:50] <cjwatson> jhunt: yep, not that I can reproduce it myself
[16:50] <bdmurray> well so if the same bug happens in 11.10 they'll be at the same place though
[16:50] <cjwatson> ev: well, except for when we do, but yeah :)
[16:50] <cjwatson> I think we'll want to do more post-release fixing given the existence and advertisement of live-build
[16:50] <cjwatson> but sure, it's good to make sure that the bugs are current ...
[16:50] <ev> I think testing the latest release is a reasonable first pass at triaging
[16:51] <ev> indeed
[16:51] <jhunt> cjwatson: signal(7) also lists async safe calls.
[16:52] <ev> tmux is made of awesome
[16:52] <cjwatson> jhunt: ah yes, thanks
[16:52] <cjwatson> I always look for it in the base-definitions section of POSIX and it's not there
[16:53] <jhunt> ev: +100
[16:53] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[16:53] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 16:53:39 2011 UTC.
[16:53] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-16.02.moin.txt
[16:53] <slangasek> thanks everyone :)
[16:53] <ev> cheers
[16:53] <barry> thanks!
[16:53] <stgraber> thanks!
[16:54] <jhunt> thanks!
[18:08] <nuclearbob> who's ready for the QA meeting?
[18:08] <patrickmw> hey
[18:08] <patrickmw> sorry, I was running a little late
[18:08] <nuclearbob> cool
[18:09] <patrickmw> #startmeeting
[18:09] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 18:09:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is patrickmw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[18:09] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:09] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
[18:09] <patrickmw> none
[18:10] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
[18:10] <patrickmw> jibel is out today.  anyone else have input?
[18:10] <nuclearbob> none here
[18:11] <patrickmw> TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
[18:11] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
[18:11] <patrickmw> I will go
[18:11] <nuclearbob> I've got a few things
[18:11] <nuclearbob> okay
[18:11] <nuclearbob> you first
[18:12] <patrickmw> During UDS we have several action items for improving and growing our automated test suites.
[18:12] <patrickmw> We will be establishing QA submission guidelines for tests
[18:13] <patrickmw> As well as standardizing how to submit tests to QA
[18:13] <patrickmw> There are a few more projects added to the backlog which will be prioritized next week in the QA automation sprint.  Expect an update in two weeks
[18:13] <patrickmw> Go ahead nuclearbob
[18:14] <nuclearbob> we had a session about the qa-regression-testing code at UDS, I proposed a couple of additional metadata tags that we're working on adding, and we're still determining the best way to specify dependencies across different distro versions
[18:14] <nuclearbob> during the upcoming sprint I'd like to get some of those tests into jenkins and automatically running on the new lab
[18:15] <nuclearbob> that's what I've got
[18:15] <patrickmw> any one else?
[18:16] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
[18:16] <bdmurray> I've nothing very exciting to report
[18:17] <patrickmw> hggdh, Ursinha?
[18:17] <patrickmw> k
[18:17] <patrickmw> moving on
[18:17] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Other Topics
[18:18] <bdmurray> With all this testing are there any plans to test the minimum memory needed for installing Ubuntu?
[18:19] <patrickmw> I have not heard anything about that. Is this something that you thought of or was this discussed prior?  We could certainly talk more about it
[18:20] <bdmurray> Something I'd thought of and that has long needed addressing.
[18:20] <bdmurray> bug 820842 is related
[18:20] <patrickmw> [ACTION] Discuss testing minumum memory reqs with QA team
[18:20] <meetingology> ACTION: Discuss testing minumum memory reqs with QA team
[18:21] <patrickmw> ok, I will bring this to the team's attention next week and keep you posted
[18:21] <bdmurray> Okay, its worth noting that there is an amount put on the CD sleeves which should be verified.
[18:21] <patrickmw> anything to add?
[18:22] <patrickmw> thanks, bdmurray
[18:22] <patrickmw> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
[18:23] <patrickmw> Since the QA team will be in the same room next week we can decide who will run it then
[18:23] <nuclearbob> sounds good
[18:23] <patrickmw> thanks all
[18:23] <patrickmw> #endmeeting
[18:23] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 18:23:31 2011 UTC.
[18:23] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-18.09.moin.txt
[18:23] <nuclearbob> thanks for chairing