[02:58] <doctormo-other> wendar: Hey there
[02:58] <doctormo-other> I had two ideas today about ubuntu-design.
[02:59] <doctormo-other> I think we might want to do a twitter account, so people interested can follow. And we should set up a meeting date for people to come and talk about what we're going to do.
[03:04] <mpt> design.ubuntu.com redirects to design.canonical.com?
[03:05] <mpt> hmmmmmmmmm
[03:08] <doctormo-other> mpt: Yes, something to think about.
[03:09] <mpt> Fixing that would be difficult but would have good effects
[03:09] <mhall119> fixing a redirect is easy
[03:09] <mhall119> making the different meaningful is what will be hard
[03:09] <mpt> yes
[03:17] <doctormo-other> What do we need the page to say?
[03:18] <doctormo-other> A twitter feed, an image bin history and maybe a blog?
[03:20] <mhall119> doctormo-other: depends on what we want the site to *do*
[03:20] <doctormo-other> Communicate?
[03:20] <doctormo-other> As tools go we have zero, I think an image bin a first step.
[03:20] <doctormo-other> thoughts?
[03:21] <mhall119> doctormo-other: I'd like to see something more bi-directional
[03:22] <doctormo-other> mhall119: I'd like a magical powers to make code too ;-) what kind of thing?
[03:22] <mhall119> the designers in the community don't have much that let's them build and contribute back to what is coming out of canonical
[03:23] <mhall119> doctormo-other: what would a "launchpad for designers" look like, in your mind?
[03:23] <mhall119> something to think about
[03:23]  * mhall119 is off to bed
[03:23] <doctormo-other> mhall119: lol, sleep on it.
[03:24] <mhall119> hey, I'm a developer, I already have launchpad
[03:24] <doctormo-other> What we need to think about is code creation resources, if we try and make something, we'll move very slowely.
[03:24] <mhall119> code creation?  you talking app design?
[03:25] <mhall119> hmmmm, how about glade files, instead of image mockups? something like that?
[03:25] <mhall119> but it'll need to be more than just desktop apps, even more than just webapps, how about just straight artwork?
[03:26] <mhall119> gah, now I won't be able to sleep
[03:27] <mhall119> anyway, think about what kind of artwork-development project management/workflow management would help get community and canonical designers working together
[03:27] <mhall119> I think file and tool compatibility will be a big hurdle we'll be faced with
[03:28] <doctormo-other> mhall119: The stratedgy is to get the ubuntu design team off the ground without Canonical's team or coherence with that team.
[03:28] <mhall119> who's goal is that?
[03:28] <doctormo-other> But, perhaps with several of the people who just coincidentally are members of the Canonical team
[03:28] <mhall119> my goal was to get Canonical's design team involved with the community
[03:29] <doctormo-other> mhall119: Yes, that's the end goal.
[03:29] <mhall119> ok, we can brainstorm more tomorrow
[03:29] <mhall119> g'night all
[03:30] <doctormo-other> night
[03:37] <mpt> One of Canonical's designers actually came up with a design for a designer equivalent to Launchpad
[03:37] <mpt> a couple of years ago
[03:37] <wendar> mpt: I was looking for that yesterday to hand to doctormo
[03:38] <wendar> mpt: do you have the spec?
[03:38] <mpt> It's not public, but I did my own variation of it
[03:38] <wendar> mpt: I can't find it in my google docs anymore
[03:38] <wendar> mpt: ah cool
[03:38]  * mpt realizes who wendar is :-)
[03:39] <wendar> mpt: I know we may have to do some steps to get the old one public, but it's not an active project
[03:39] <mpt> right
[03:39] <wendar> mpt: and would be a shame to waste all the work he put into it
[03:40] <wendar> doctormo-other: I like the twitter idea
[03:42] <mpt> looking now
[03:42]  * doctormo-other is interested
[03:42] <wendar> mpt: I noticed the design.ubuntu.com redirect too, should be easy to swap once we have a page to point it to
[03:50] <mpt> wendar, I can't find it either. All I found is a research interview he did with mvo beforehand.
[03:53] <mpt> wendar, doctormo-other: Here's my specification editor sketches: http://imgur.com/a/8xTN5
[03:55] <doctormo-other> mpt: Are those sketches for a desktop app?
[03:56] <mpt> doctormo-other, it could be desktop or Web. There's nothing specific to either, really.
[03:58] <doctormo-other> mpt: I don't understand the design yet, maybe you can walk me through it sometime.
[03:59] <mpt> sure
[04:00] <doctormo-other> What is the job of the tool of the design team?
[04:04] <mpt> That particular tool is for writing, tracking changes in, commenting on, and organizing design specifications
[04:05] <mpt> so that they're easier to edit, organize, and find fragments of, than wiki pages
[04:05] <mpt> and so that they're more expressive than bug reports or blueprints
[04:06] <mpt> There's a loud conversation going on here, and now I realize that I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "the tool of the design team" :-)
[04:22] <doctormo-other> mpt: No that makes sense.
[04:22] <doctormo-other> We have tools to help designers collaborate, and then tools we need as a community.
[10:34] <daker> hello
[10:39] <czajkowski> aloha folks
[18:40] <doctormo-other> Hey thorwil
[18:43] <thorwil> hi doctormo-other. so what's the state of affairs?
[18:45] <doctormo-other> thorwil: We want a community design team, at least as far as a place for designers to come to.
[18:45] <doctormo-other> The discussion at UDS showed that the community team and the internal design team have a motivation to see this happen.
[18:46] <doctormo-other> There are two things to do: find tools to do collaborative design and, perform a redesign of an application in the cycle.
[18:51] <thorwil> a clear goal and deadline should help
[18:52] <thorwil> i worry that the motivation of the canonical design team is not worth much, given what has happened, or rather didn't happen, so far
[18:53] <thorwil> my impression that every team member is already stretched thin due to a workload of which the community has all in all no idea
[18:55] <thorwil> doctormo-other: are you aware of http://mediagoblin.org/ ?
[18:55] <doctormo-other> I am.
[18:56] <thorwil> it doesn't have the versioning support i would wish for, but might be ... at least something at hand
[18:58] <pleia2> anyone know if there SVGs available of the new pangolin logo?
[18:59] <doctormo-other> thorwil: Another suggestion was sparkleshare or ubuntu-one
[18:59] <doctormo-other> pleia2: What does the  pangolin logo look like now?
[19:00] <pleia2> doctormo-other: like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/6326022129
[19:01] <thorwil> doctormo-other: those are reasonable options, with the risk to lead to a gnome design team like situation, where most happens on irc. so you either are there, or you are square
[19:01] <doctormo-other> wendar: We have a request which needs the attention of the Canonical design team.
[19:02] <doctormo-other> thorwil: Very true.
[21:35] <mhall119> doctormo-other: is there anything like etherpad for sketching?
[21:37] <doctormo-other> mhall119: Real time or bazaar time?
[21:40] <mhall119> real time
[21:41] <mhall119> I know bzr like is hard to do with images
[21:41] <doctormo-other> mhall119: Depends, you can use sparkleshare for that.
[21:42] <mhall119> doctormo-other: I was thinking something like a shared whiteboard you can draw on
[21:42] <mhall119> nothing for making nice graphics, just collaborating on design brainstorming
[21:51] <wendar> doctormo-other: hi, what's the request?
[21:52] <wendar> doctormo-other: I'm working on setting up a meeting time for interested community designers with them next week, so might just fit in with that
[21:52] <doctormo-other> wendar: pleia2 asks for the svg for the the new pangolin logo. shown here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/6326022129
[21:53] <doctormo-other> wendar: One of the concerns for thorwil was that Canonical staff will be far too busy and too stressed with work to be able to contribute to the community.
[21:53] <doctormo-other> Meeting sounds great.
[21:53] <wendar> doctormo-other: makes sense, I'm not sure who is the right person to get that from, but we'll find out together
[21:54] <wendar> doctormo-other: he's quite right to be concerned, they are stretched pretty thin. It certainly wouldn't work to expect them to do all the design work, but that's not really what this is about.
[21:55] <wendar> doctormo-other: What we want to do is unblock the community contribtions, so the available time of the Canonical staff designers isn't what everyone is waiting on.
[21:56] <wendar> doctormo-other: if MOTU were waiting on Canonical's Foundations team to do any work, it'd all fall apart.
[21:56] <doctormo-other> wendar: Yes, but the community will need critical mass to form a core to build form.
[21:56] <wendar> doctormo-other: But, the Canonical designers have volunteered their time to help the community team get started.
[21:56] <doctormo-other> The foundations team started that core by doing all their work in the community.
[21:57] <wendar> doctormo-other: I suspect we're going to need a different model here, where the community designers lead by example.
[21:58] <doctormo-other> We're going to be stuck if we're all waiting on everyone else ;-)
[21:58] <doctormo-other> Part of the ideal here is that Canonical designers when volunteering consider themselves as community designers.
[21:58] <doctormo-other> Not as special forces ;-)
[21:58] <wendar> Get a community design team going, doing productive, collaborative work, and lead the Canonical designers in by showing them how well it works.
[21:59] <wendar> There's only a tiny sliver of difference between the way they work now, and the way they could work with all of you.
[22:00] <wendar> But, right now their primary exposure to public collaboration is the ayatana list.
[22:00] <wendar> Not the best example of harmonious collaboation.
[22:01] <doctormo-other> Not at all :-D
[22:01]  * mpt wonders what he just missed
[22:01] <doctormo-other> Ayatana: Imbalanced expectations with imbalanced skill requirements.
[22:02] <wendar> yeah, and over time building up frustrations because of no clear way to participate
[22:03] <wendar> So we reset, and lead the way
[22:03] <wendar> We know how to collaborate, it's a matter of carrying those good principles into a new space
[22:04] <doctormo-other> Hello jono
[22:11] <jono> hey
[22:11] <cjohnston> jono: !
[22:11] <jono> :-)
[22:11] <cjohnston> jono did you get the email i sent you about having created this room?
[22:12] <jono> no?
[22:13] <cjohnston> You asked me to send you an email about this room last week so you could help promote the design team joining.. I'm pretty sure I sent it to you.. but it was during UDS
[22:14] <cjohnston> either way.. its created
[22:24] <doctormo-other> mhall119 or cjohnston are you any good at Javascript?
[22:24] <cjohnston> no.. we need a js person :-(
[22:25] <doctormo-other> I did a big search for whiteboards, and there just aren't any good ones. The ones that were good have been bought up by blackboard and salesforce and killed off.
[22:26] <doctormo-other> So I had a look at etherpad, I think etherpad + google's svg-edit would give everything required and more.
[22:26] <cjohnston> required for what
[22:27] <doctormo-other> cjohnston: Collaborative editing/whiteboarding for design, mhall119 was asking about it.
[22:27] <cjohnston> hmm.. ok
[22:31] <doctormo-other> cjohnston: No problem is there?
[22:31] <cjohnston> np
[22:31] <cjohnston> no
[22:31] <cjohnston> just wasnt familiar with the conversation
[22:32] <doctormo-other> cjohnston: Are you having a relaxing Friday? *hug*
[22:33] <cjohnston> i wish.. im at work
[22:46] <mhall119> doctormo-other: not really on the javascript
[22:56] <AlanBell> cjohnston: was there a specific session at UDS that caused this room to be created? or some  background on it?
[22:56] <cjohnston> AlanBell: brand guidelines
[22:57] <cjohnston> i mentioned that we have a desire to have discussion with the design team, but there isnt a 'place' to do that
[22:57] <AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19528/design-online-brand-guidelines/ that one
[22:57] <AlanBell> perfect, thanks
[22:57] <cjohnston> ya.. i believe so
[22:58] <AlanBell> I think this is a good idea, I never really understood the ayatana concept and why it was kind of outside of Ubuntu
[22:59] <pleia2> AlanBell: that's what we all said
[22:59] <AlanBell> and more engagement with the design team is great, particularly from the accessibility perspective, getting it designed in rather than designed out saves a lot of effort
[23:00] <doctormo-other> AlanBell: The concept was broad and without buy-in from all parties.
[23:55] <wendar> AlanBell: also http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19502/community-p-ux-participation/
[23:56] <wendar> AlanBell: that's not where the channel was created, but it came up as a good meeting point for that blueprint also
[23:57] <AlanBell> thanks