[15:57] Informal meeting in about an hour. [16:06] hehe, you beat me astraljava :) [16:07] I'm so sorry, are you badly hurt? [16:07] LOL [16:08] jussi01, is there any way to get cjwatson@nusakan.canonical.com added to the mailing list without asking colin to do it [16:08] asking colin to confirm his new email for the build errors [16:08] they changed to a new build server [16:09] What benefits will that give us? [16:10] so i don't have to keep approving his messages [16:21] I meant the new server. [16:24] faster build times for the images [16:24] Good, good. [16:24] he's quite proud of the improvement i believe :) [16:25] Good to hear. Should compliment him for his efforts. [16:44] is the meeting on this channel, in 15 min or so? [16:52] aye craigs63 [16:52] thx [16:55] i believe this is the relevant page for the meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows [16:58] stochastic, holstein , ailo: ping for meeting [17:01] * ScottL is worried that not many people will show up for meeting despite assertions of attendance [17:01] Looks a bit that way. [17:02] did we have others say they were going to be here? [17:02] But, let's give it a bit of time, we're informal, anyway, so no strict schedule. [17:03] sounds good [17:05] JonReagan, do you have particularly strong opinions about the task derived work flows? [17:05] * ScottL is sorry to put you on the spot ;) [17:05] just trying to feel people's opinions out [17:06] haha well I wouldn't say that I have particularly strong opinions [17:06] my general feeling is that we should replicate current functionality with a few extremely selective additions [17:07] JonReagan, okay, any particular non-strong opinions ;) [17:07] or how about this... [17:07] JonReagan, what would you like included? [17:07] I will say that I like the example workflows up on the wiki, particularly the focus on photography, which is one I would definitely like to see included [17:08] but that could just be because I like photography ;) [17:09] One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc). [17:09] meeting right now? [17:09] I feel that if we are a multimedia-focused distro, then the major art forms (photography, music, video) should have their own workflows [17:10] falktx, aye! [17:10] there is a chance Gnome will drop fallback mode [17:10] JonReagan, i agree with the photography inclusion, shnatsel has given thought to this, and i would like this to be one of the ones we include this cycle [17:10] awesome! [17:11] falktx, hmmm, then that makes our decision to move to xfce more fortuitous [17:11] craigs63, that is interesting, i would like us to investigate this [17:11] the main "issue" was that Gnome3 only worked in hw-accererated mode, but now it has gallium support or whatever, so 3.2 won't need 3d drivers anymore [17:11] let me search it [17:11] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAxMjI [17:12] falktx, did you see craigs63 's comment about missing "tooltip" for menu items? [17:12] falktx, craigs63> One thing I see on XFCE I don't like, the menus no longer have a "tooltip" (whatever it's called) - i.e. a little box that tells what each program does ("CD player", "bitmap paint", etc). [17:12] do you have any insight on this? [17:12] if not that is okay, we can research it later [17:12] is a move to XFCE under consideration for the next release? [17:13] JonReagan, we have already started the transition [17:13] ah, cool [17:13] last release is using xfce but we didn't complete the theming, menu, settings, etc [17:13] it looked kinda ugly but did function [17:14] ScottL: no idea about tooltips [17:14] btw, red hat dev say about gnome3: [17:14] falktx, okay, i'll add that to my list for things to work on [17:14] "But based on what they've said in the past, I expect that once most hardware that previously needed the fallback mode is covered, fallback mode will die." [17:14] ScottL: is it really needed? [17:15] falktx, craigs63 was asking about it, so i imagine if finds it helpful others will too [17:15] ScottL: craigs63: what do you think of this -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/screenshots/klaudia.png ? [17:15] Only gort two minutes... just a quick idea maybe not for this cycle. Has anyone thought of a musicpad workflow for net/notebooks? [17:16] musicpad? [17:16] len, what is musicpad? [17:16] scoring? [17:16] faltx: looks nice [17:16] hey all sorry I'm late [17:16] or like lilypad where you write the notes on a staff for midi? [17:16] For doing music "scribbling" on the road. Something that con rec ord.. maybe a notation thing.. just thought of it not really thpougght out. [17:16] falktx, you might explain to craigs63 what klaudia can do [17:17] craigs63: basically it just lists the software available and it's features [17:17] klaudia needs a tooltip! [17:17] craigs63: more complete than generic menus [17:17] len, definitely think though it, especially think through what the purpose is (what the use will accomplish) then work downwards through work flow and tool chain [17:17] len, but i would certainly like to hear more about it [17:18] stochastic, hi, we haven't really started yet, just gabbering [17:18] gotcha [17:18] Anyway, I'll try fresh it out in the list, but I have to play in an hour. [17:18] * stochastic reads backscroll a bit anyway [17:18] ScottL: this is one app that is ready, and has no special dependencies. maybe later we can create a package for it? [17:18] The other day I was just trying to play a CD on my laptop, I thought it was annoying to have to google the names that are listed on my 'multimedia' menu... [17:19] stochastic, i think the only real comment for work flows was support for the 'photography' work flow (especially since shnatsel, who did the workflow, also got darkroom into debian and then ubuntu) [17:19] falktx, that is certainly a possibility :) [17:20] craigs63: that would be annoying! [17:20] craigs63, we will be tightening up the menu this cycle (along with other xfce things) and we will look into the tooltips [17:21] gotta run bye... [17:22] ScottL, who all is here to talk workflows? [17:22] Well, I hate to say this, but I gotta run too, time to meet some family for lunch. [17:22] i would say that astraljava , craigs63 , falktx , me, JonReagan [17:23] oh well, scratch JonReagan from that list ;) [17:23] bye JonReagan [17:23] JonReagan, what's your take on workflows before you go? [17:23] any quick ideas or concepts? [17:24] I'm looking forward to having them. ;) Definitely in support of the photography workowkkdkflow would you mind sending me an email after the meeting is over and just let me know what I can do? I'll check the meeting logs, but I'm definitely up for helping develop a toolchain for a workflow [17:24] wow, sorry, last message got a little garbled... using empathy and it froze [17:24] okay sounds good [17:25] JonReagan, you should probably review the work flows for your interest [17:25] if you see a different way to do something, add that to the wiki page [17:25] JonReagan: Meeting won't be specially logged, you need to comb the channel logs over. [17:25] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows [17:25] ScottL: I have 2 workflows of my own that are not possible because of missing packages [17:26] openoctave and linuxsampler are missing from debian [17:26] falktx, can you work towards getting them into debian [17:26] so as non-daw and non-mixer [17:26] thanks Scott, I'll take a look through there and see if I find something. I guess before I start which workflows are those 2? ;) Don't want to waste time on something we know is already impossible [17:26] that's what shnatsel did for the photogrphay work flow [17:26] oh, linuxsampler is probably a no go [17:26] ScottL: not sure, my debian skills are not the best, and I want to move to arch soon [17:27] ScottL: why not linuxsampler?? [17:27] quadrispro can help too falktx , get it packaged and then submit to the debian multimedia team mailing list [17:27] okay so let's set some targets for this discussion, i.e. we want roughly four workflows from each of the major categories? [17:27] isn't linuxsampler the one with the restrictive license (i.e. can't make money) [17:28] stochastic, what do you consider the major categories? [17:28] audio, video, graphics? [17:28] yup [17:28] okay :) [17:28] +1 for what stochastic said. Alright everyone, have a good meeting! [17:29] is four a solid target number? [17:29] ScottL: it has a restriction about putting linuxsampler on hardware boxes, nothing else [17:29] we can go over on some, under on others [17:29] it is at least a good base number [17:29] start with audio then? [17:30] sure [17:30] before we begin [17:31] I do want to mention that some of the workflow design is to pair down the number of apps in our packages [17:31] What does pairing down mean? [17:31] and there are general tools in the packages that no workflow mentions [17:31] reduce [17:31] Ok. [17:32] pare :-) [17:32] I'd hate to see those general tools disappear because [17:32] oops, spelling gaff [17:32] can you list some of those general tools? [17:34] audacity! [17:34] ones that come to mind are gcolor (I think is the name, a color picker for the screen), ladish might fall into that category [17:34] most generic audio tool ever [17:35] anyway, maybe I'm just too worried about neat helper tools being taken away from new users [17:35] let's start paring down to the golden workflows [17:35] mastering should be first, right? [17:35] stochastic, we can always confer later and reevaluate if we feel something is missing [17:36] Ardour and LV2 plugins [17:36] sounds good [17:36] falktx, have you looked through the workflow wiki page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows [17:37] stochastic, i'd say that we should focus on at least two work flows for audio: recoding live instruments, and recording synths, sequencers,midi [17:37] oops, sorry I will look again [17:37] i shouldn't say "focus on" [17:37] Is # 7. Miscellaneous: meant to cover things like "send an email", "browse the web", "play a CD", etc. ? [17:37] i really should say that i would suggest those two at least [17:37] ScottL, by synths, seqencers, midi are you considering them all to be software based, not hardware? [17:38] stochastic, i suppose it doesn't have too, but i'm not a midi guy really, kinda out of my expertise [17:38] craigs63, I'm pretty sure the Desktop tools will remain [17:38] hm, Ardour is used pretty much in all workflows, but not in recording? [17:38] stochastic, will it involved additional packages to support hardware as well? [17:38] stochastic, yes I assume they will stay on the disc, but will the workflow doc explain what they do? [17:39] falktx, recording what? it is used to in recording live instruments and midi stuff [17:39] craigs63, ahh, good point [17:39] should it? [17:39] do we need a work flow for email? [17:39] ScottL: 'Simple recording of concert, conversation etc' [17:39] at least link to the generic ubuntu docs on that stuff [17:39] Yeah, I don't know if this web page assumes we all know Ubuntu programs [17:39] falktx, ah, i didn't put that in there, someone else did to support audacity (i think) [17:40] but I guess Ardour is a bit too complicated for a simple task like this [17:40] I think this is purely multimedia related, no? [17:40] We don't have to duplicate what desktop distro already does. [17:40] astraljava, i had intended the work flows to focus on multimedia tasks, yes [17:41] generally the mainstream desktop uses don't really need a "work flow" because it's a single app [17:41] True enough. [17:41] does anyone have any suggestions for "work flows" for audio? [17:41] i've suggested 'recording live instruments' and 'recording midi, synths' [17:41] so under audio on the workflows page we have five major sections [17:42] let's look at each one really briefly and talk [17:42] and by suggestions i mean "work flows that we should include for the next release" [17:42] stochastic, that sounds good, i have limited time and i would like this meeting to make more progress [17:43] * ScottL realizes that sounds mean and it wasn't intended directly at stochastic [17:43] ScottL, I think audio is the big one so lets power through that [17:43] aye [17:44] in the recording section I see a great deal of overlap in the workflows [17:44] keep in mind these work flows are not perfect and we are not beholded to them [17:44] in general I think those who record audio would want plugins to tweak it [17:44] definitely [17:44] and mastering of that audio in the end would be a natural progression [17:45] i think plugins shouldn't be a choice anymore, if you select any audio work flows they should be included with them [17:45] +1 [17:45] stochastic, so probably some of these work flows can actually be combined (i.e. record audio -> mix and master = record, mix, master audio) [17:45] plugins don't take too much space and are always useful [17:46] agreed falktx [17:46] I think we should put there as many plug as possible [17:46] then I'm in support of all the subsections of the "Recording and Editing" being combined into one package, maybe documentation can be segmented [17:46] (those that work well) [17:46] the only oddity is Hydrogen appearing in the recording and editing section [17:46] stochastic, do you want to segregate the midi stuff from the recording real instuments? [17:46] yes, to start [17:47] +1 [17:47] can you explain the hydrogen oddity a little, stochastic ? [17:47] well it's a program that generates audio [17:47] everything else in there is intended to adjust an audio signal [17:47] very true [17:48] but it does support the 'bedroom' musician who doesn't have drums but practically everything else [17:48] but i'm not stuck on it being there [17:48] yes, some users want a drum track to back their acoustic accordion playing, but they might also want a bass track [17:48] true [17:48] hmmmm [17:49] where's the line to be drawn between the recording and the synthesis [17:49] and ardour will eventually have midi capability [17:49] stochastic, i was doing that on the basis of the capabilities of the person making the music [17:49] ScottL: don't count on ardour3 being released so soon [17:49] i think they typically play instruments (guitars, bass, maybe some keyboards) or they don't play anything [17:50] oh, I just remembered something [17:50] falktx, i know, but it will at some point [17:50] http://www.linuxdsp.co.uk/download/beta/linuxdsp_ardour/index.html [17:50] ^Ardour2 "fork" with a bit more features [17:50] could be a plus for US [17:50] but let's not get hung up on hydrogen, we can eliminate it from the 'record live' and evaluate it later if need be [17:51] sounds good [17:51] okay, so... [17:51] p.s. Live should be a word we use to describe performing live, let's call it record audio [17:51] #1 combine recording edit for recording audio [17:52] #2 separate work flow for synths, sequencers, midi [17:52] #3 remove hydrogen drums from #1 [17:52] Hydrogen appears in #2 anyway [17:53] do we want to support any other audio work flows for this cycle? [17:53] DJ stuff? [17:53] scoring/composing? [17:53] dholbach could like that. [17:53] I would like too [17:54] And I would like the latter. [17:54] does US currently has any app for playing midi files? [17:54] are the work flows adequate for your interests? [17:54] I think it's of minimal effort while we're designing these workflows to make them the way users have come to expect [17:54] astraljava, stochastic^^^ [17:55] falktx, yes, it was seq24 but is now qtractor [17:55] I'd like to see a workflow that incorporates "Professional Playback" - i.e. DJing, podcasting, etc... [17:55] as seq24 was geared more to live playing [17:55] ScottL: ah, qtractor is _not_ a midi player [17:55] ScottL: The scoring/notation does look good, I'm no DJ so I have no say on that. [17:55] I'd also like to see a 'Notation' workflow [17:56] in 2.3 or broken out separate? [17:56] astraljava, stochastic : for those work flows you desire, can you improve what he have on the wiki? [17:56] i don't think they will get done otherwise [17:56] also a "live performance" workflow would be nice [17:57] but not essential [17:57] craigs63, what do you mean? [17:57] i would also like to mention two things: [17:57] #1 i don't think we should worry about all the things we "could" have right now, minimal is probably the best option now [17:57] stochastic: 2.3 on the workflow now, mentions notation. [17:58] ScottL: Absolutely. [17:58] #2 i would like to develop a way latter to manage work flows after installation (i.e. add or remove them) [17:58] s/latter/later [17:58] #2 is an interesting idea. [17:58] perhaps in -controls [17:59] I think that should be it, yeah. [17:59] craigs63, the "coding and experimental synthesis" part of that is probably excessive [17:59] so, i think we agree on "record audio" and "record synths" as supported work flows [17:59] do we want to include others mentioned so far? [18:00] ScottL: if you could do a mock-up of what you want for -controls and managing workflows, I can easily code it for you ;) [18:01] thank you falktx , we can certainly do that later :) [18:01] I think we better go with as few as possible, while still maintaining a usable setup that benefits those who install US. [18:01] ScottL: I would try a welcome screen, mini-doc wizard, and small -controls in one app. what do you think? [18:01] falktx, let's talk about this later if you don't mind [18:01] ScottL, is there a reason not to include the "Professional Playback" and "Notation" workflows? [18:02] * ScottL apologizes if being rude but i really want to get some things decided about work flows, we have already been here one hour [18:02] sure, np [18:02] stochastic, if you think they are complete, then i will not disagree [18:02] but we will need someone to work up a wiki page probably describing the work flow in greater detail [18:03] yes, the sub-sections do need to be combined in the meta package, but okay [18:03] stochastic: I think those (at least the Notation) require more love until we can commit to them. [18:03] astraljava, how so? [18:04] Well, I might be wrong, and maybe I have missed something, but perhaps there are things to be investigated, still? I at least haven't seen them mentioned very often on this channel. [18:05] but graphics are hardly ever talked about in this channel either, doesn't mean we should ignore that workflow [18:05] * stochastic doesn't mean to have attitude there, just a counter example [18:05] stochastic: I didn't mean we should ignore them. I was just being careful. [18:05] okay, stochastic and astraljava, how about we try to include them but give them some special attention as well during this process to validate them? [18:06] I at least want to spend more time on that specific work flow until I can honestly say I can commit on delivering it. [18:06] +1 [18:06] I would gladly take on the bulk of work associated with a "notation" and a "professional playback" workflow [18:06] Ok, if you feel like it, then fine by me. [18:06] astraljava, I'd love to know what you think is required [18:07] i'll work on the 'recording audio' and 'recording synths' unless others want to them or to assist with them [18:07] maybe after the meeting [18:07] are we through the audio work flows then? [18:07] Sure. [18:07] I think that covers Audio, yes. [18:08] graphics next? [18:08] okay [18:10] i wouldn't mind a generalistic work flow for creating a scalable vector graphic which would basically be inkscape [18:11] because it can be used for so many things (fliers, title screens for movies, icons, etc) [18:11] i think a generalized work flow for editing digital pictures would be helpful too [18:12] inkscape, gimp, and some color picker is more than enough for me [18:12] but i think the question for editing digital pictures would be the application - gimp or mypaint come to mind [18:12] * ScottL also agrees with falktx [18:12] blender comes to mind too [18:13] falktx, what would you suggest blender be used to accomplish? [18:14] 3d fx on images [18:14] blender can do crazy effect [18:14] stochastic, astraljava : any thoughts in this area? [18:14] err, blender can do everything! [18:14] hehe, true [18:15] as we discuss this, I'll admit that I'm an amateur at best in this dep, but I'd love to see us begin to cater to real professionals in some workflows by putting together stuff that isn't suggested in the standard Ubuntu [18:15] ScottL: Sorry, no. Not a graphics person. [18:16] there are some great tools out there, and maybe it won't happen this release, but we should think about pro image/printing/design studios [18:17] stochastic, i cannot tell you have much i agree with this statement, i know the libre graphics magazine think this way too [18:17] how about i talk to some people outside this group and help develop this more? [18:18] shall we move onto video and photography? [18:18] or will this progress the same as with video? [18:19] I don't understand the question. [18:19] But yeah, if you know people who could help with the professional graphics, please do. [18:20] yes, i meant i will approach professionals who use the tools for their input [18:21] That part I did get. Not the latter. [18:21] my last two questions were showing my impatience to be honest as i need to go and do other things [18:21] Yeah ok. We can move on. [18:22] so are we leaving graphics and video workflows to be determined at a later date? [18:22] well, i meant that if video and photography discussion are going to progress the same as the graphics then i will probably withdraw now [18:22] stochastic, i would say so [18:23] video needs some debate as to which editor is best [18:23] but that's not something I know about, I've heard blender is great [18:23] stochastic, i feel very strongly about blender as the "professional" video editor [18:23] I would vote for kdenlive [18:23] is OpenShot a contender? [18:24] kdelive is made by the same devs that make MLT (the backend, also used by openshot) [18:24] plus it includes a compositor which is essential for film grade work flows (i.e. green screen but also severe color bending amongst other abilities) [18:24] ScottL: what about blender and kdenlive? [18:25] i don't have much opinion between openshot (which has improved very much and development continues) and kdenlive [18:25] i have heard that both applications are buggy or crashes for some, but work perfectly for others [18:26] okay, i need to leave the discussion [18:27] Thanks, at least we got somewhere. [18:27] Good start for these. [18:27] wait [18:27] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap, if you lot are interested what is happening with xubuntu :) [18:27] i'll offer this about video [18:28] i will be supporting a film making/music video work flow with blender [18:28] knome: Thanks! I'm sure many are, but I at least plan on working on the system-level link between Studio and Xubuntu. Not alone, of course (or at least hopefully). [18:28] i'll be working with a group called "nofilmschool" who use DSLR camera to shoot movies [18:29] ScottL: Intriguing. [18:29] i would still suggest that we can develop and support a 'make a home movie' work flow with kdenlive or openshot or whatever [18:29] Valuable experience. [18:29] astraljava, yes, i am very, very excited about this and i should be buying a dslr camera this christmas to do this (along with lenses, etc) [18:29] okay, i'm gone this time ;) [18:29] I might suggest that we offer essentially two workflows each for graphics and video, one professional trac, one hobbyist trac [18:30] stochastic: Good idea! [18:30] ScottL, ^^ last tidbit [18:31] ls [18:31] astraljava, will you be around in 15min to discuss work needed on the workflows I'll be spearheading [18:32] stochastic: Yep, sure will. [18:45] hey astraljava, so what's required for a workflow beyond a meta package and some documentation? [18:46] stochastic: I have no grief with the work flow itself. I'm just not overly familiar with the tools, myself, but I have interest in Notation, so that's why I said I cannot say I can commit to delivering until I've done further research. [18:47] ahh understandable [18:47] So I was not under-estimating your efforts there. [18:47] out of curiosity though what do you think a workflow requires before release? [18:48] Just speaking from my point-of-view solely. [18:48] to turn it from an idea on paper to a great software package [18:48] Well, tested tools, steps, and some consensus from the team that the quality is acceptable. [18:49] By tools I mean the apps. [18:49] By steps I mean that several people have run them through, and verified that it works as documented. [18:49] By quality I mean that the apps are of good quality, and the end result is nothing to be ashamed of, artistic values aside. [18:52] okay, interesting take [18:52] I like [18:53] I was more thinking that we'd want some documentation for each workflow, like step-by-step of the basics, we'd also want it tested etc... [18:54] but I like your criteria [18:54] Well, what you are suggesting kinda leads to that, when done properly. [18:54] yes [18:55] It's just that at some milestone, we have to keep those in mind when making the decision of whether or not to release said work flow. [18:57] It's easy to put people to work on them when those are specified. When the steps are clearly defined, asking people to reproduce is the simplest way of finding bugs. [18:58] well please feel free to yell at me if you feel either the Notation or the Professional Playback workflows are not making the grade by New Years Day [18:58] I can only commit to one work flow, so far, cause I want to get more involved with the stuff under the hood. That's why I'm participating more in the Xubuntu devel work. [18:58] great [18:58] stochastic: Gotcha. But don't think you have to do it alone. [18:59] I will assist, at least if you need it. But you can certainly head them. [18:59] I can take a look at the Notation stuff, at least as far as trying what the wiki says , I've never used the Musescore program. [18:59] And as always, nitpicking for spelling and grammar. [19:00] I'm also gonna try to put more effort into the bug fixing. We've probably got the worst track record on supporting older releases, out of all derivatives. [19:00] true [19:01] we generally exude the opinion that we're too busy working on new stuff to worry about those old releases [19:01] Exactly. Which makes me feel very, very ashamed. [19:34] knome, can we get the code for the new site to be moved to bzr sometime in the near future https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-resources/website [19:35] stochastic, can we use a bzr branch under the website team please? restriction of access and all that [19:35] you are a member of that team [19:35] * ScottL is now reading backscroll while waiting for next text [19:35] task, not text [19:38] stochastic, i'll look at that early next week [19:40] ScottL, that branch is now owned by the website team. [19:40] https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website [19:53] stochastic, oh good, thank you! [20:08] AH! [20:08] i should have said i would be in a concert today [20:08] No prob. You've got most of the work flows assigned. [20:09] cool [20:09] i think... [20:09] The rest of us are gonna spend the winter in the Bahamas. [20:09] lol [20:09] good plan [20:10] We should have said that would happen if someone misses this one. [20:11] whats up with that thread about the RT kernel? [20:11] i feel like thats about 3 cycles too late [20:12] Hmm... no idea. [20:12] maybe its just that Ralph and I get a long so well [20:13] Best mates, huh? [20:14] yeah [20:14] we go way back [20:15] anybody interested in xubuntu stuff, feel free to join our meeting in 1h 45mins at #xubuntu-devel [20:15] Seriously, who'd that be?! [20:15] no idea. [21:27] ScottL, astraljava, holstein, falktx, in our refinement of the Graphics and Video workflows, we should probably browse some pages like this: http://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=Multimedia [22:26] Let's combine Notation and Graphics Print Production into just "Print Production" [22:26] ^^workflows [22:32] good idea stochastic [23:38] an interesting review of video editors for Ubuntu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11454037&postcount=11 [23:44]