| ashams | thelinuxer, why we need to decide who can be nominated and who can not? I think this is the reason for a First Council idea, right? | 15:51 |
|---|---|---|
| thelinuxer | ashams: hey shams | 15:52 |
| ashams | thelinuxer, hey ya man | 15:52 |
| ashams | h r u? | 15:52 |
| thelinuxer | ashams: fine :) | 15:53 |
| thelinuxer | of course we need to decide | 15:53 |
| thelinuxer | ana mesh fahem awi el so2al | 15:53 |
| ashams | lol | 15:53 |
| ashams | why we can't just make open for anyone to nominate him/herself | 15:54 |
| thelinuxer | so we can have a council member who never did anything in the team ? | 15:54 |
| ashams | confusing | 15:55 |
| thelinuxer | what's confusing ? | 15:55 |
| ashams | newcomers won't dare t o nominate themselves | 15:55 |
| thelinuxer | and y should we count on this ? i guess nominees can only be from the current team members | 15:56 |
| ashams | meritocracy is a high importance | 15:56 |
| thelinuxer | current approved team members | 15:56 |
| thelinuxer | yes of course bas we should protect ourselves against sabotage | 15:56 |
| ashams | right | 15:58 |
| thelinuxer | hence we need to provide basic rules for nominations | 15:58 |
| thelinuxer | bas keda | 15:58 |
| ashams | yes, but approval is open for any one, team is open to join | 15:59 |
| thelinuxer | exactly | 15:59 |
| ashams | this won't help prevent sabotage | 15:59 |
| thelinuxer | it will help | 15:59 |
| thelinuxer | council will approve members | 15:59 |
| thelinuxer | then these members can nominate themselves | 16:00 |
| ashams | that's exactly what I want to avoid | 16:00 |
| ashams | ppl will feel like governed by no clear rules | 16:00 |
| thelinuxer | not necessarily | 16:00 |
| ashams | any ideas about how to decide who can be approved and who can not | 16:01 |
| thelinuxer | look what we are trying to achieve is getting the team more organized | 16:01 |
| ashams | right | 16:01 |
| ashams | just needs to be clear rules | 16:02 |
| thelinuxer | ideas about how to approve ... | 16:02 |
| ashams | how ppl gain the right to nominate themselves | 16:02 |
| thelinuxer | gaining the right is simply by becoming approved ... | 16:02 |
| ashams | lol | 16:03 |
| ashams | and how can they be approved | 16:03 |
| thelinuxer | becoming approved may have the same rules like ubuntu official membership | 16:03 |
| ashams | by joining | 16:03 |
| thelinuxer | that's for starters | 16:03 |
| ashams | aha now I started to understand | 16:03 |
| ashams | I think there should be 2 levels of joining | 16:04 |
| ashams | approved and non-approved | 16:04 |
| thelinuxer | exactly | 16:04 |
| ashams | so do you have ideas of conditions for approving ppl? | 16:05 |
| thelinuxer | sustainable effort in the team | 16:06 |
| ashams | won't this split the team | 16:07 |
| thelinuxer | like joining a certain subteam (mansoura team or graphics teamfor example) | 16:07 |
| thelinuxer | split ezay ? | 16:07 |
| ashams | I mean being approved not like being non- | 16:08 |
| thelinuxer | don't call it unapproved | 16:08 |
| thelinuxer | call it approval in progress :D | 16:08 |
| ashams | lol | 16:09 |
| ashams | nominate yourself for the next elections :P | 16:09 |
| ashams | in ppls assemply | 16:09 |
| seif | what r u guys talking about | 16:10 |
| ashams | seif, wenta malak ? | 16:10 |
| ashams | :P | 16:11 |
| seif | again what r u talking about | 16:11 |
| seif | ? | 16:11 |
| thelinuxer | a proposal to have a council for the team | 16:11 |
| ashams | again, Wenta malak ? | 16:11 |
| ashams | again :P | 16:11 |
| seif | ashams, it wasnt funny the first time its not funny the second time | 16:11 |
| ashams | it is funny funny from here though | 16:12 |
| seif | as a public irc channel for ppl wanting to join u should try to be more helpful than giving me a hard time to figure something out :) | 16:12 |
| seif | good for you that you laugh on your own jokes | 16:12 |
| seif | thelinuxer, u need a council for the team to be an approved loco right? | 16:12 |
| ashams | :D | 16:12 |
| thelinuxer | seif: malak grumpy keda leeh he was just kidding | 16:13 |
| ashams | bad mood | 16:13 |
| seif | thelinuxer, i am usually straight ot the point guy :) | 16:13 |
| thelinuxer | seif: no we don't "need" it, it's just something to help us get organized | 16:13 |
| seif | thelinuxer, very good idea | 16:14 |
| seif | reading the backlog now | 16:14 |
| seif | thelinuxer, define <thelinuxer> sustainable effort in the team | 16:14 |
| ashams | enjoy | 16:14 |
| thelinuxer | the same thing as it is with the current ubuntu membership process | 16:15 |
| thelinuxer | we will need to define it even more for our specific case | 16:15 |
| thelinuxer | this is just a guideline | 16:15 |
| seif | thelinuxer, i recommend not copying the ubuntu guidelines that much | 16:16 |
| seif | ubuntu membership does not require you to be active in the ubuntu community | 16:16 |
| seif | where areas a loco team would require you to be like that | 16:16 |
| thelinuxer | can u please clarify the last 2 sentences. I don't get it | 16:18 |
| thelinuxer | seif: first, we will need to define our own rules as I said. Sustainable effort in the team seems reasonable. To be part of the team you have to do something for the team. (We can still discuss this point) | 16:19 |
| ashams | it can be done throgh history of careers in the team | 16:20 |
| thelinuxer | history of careers ? | 16:20 |
| ashams | like support, graphics or so | 16:20 |
| seif | e.g: some1 like me shouldnt really be an ubuntu-eg loco member :) | 16:20 |
| seif | i shouldnt get a vote | 16:20 |
| ashams | exactly | 16:20 |
| seif | because i dont contribute to the team | 16:20 |
| seif | although i am an ubuntu member and i get to vote in ubuntu | 16:21 |
| thelinuxer | seif: so we need to define what contribution is | 16:21 |
| seif | thelinuxer, exactly | 16:22 |
| seif | technical contirbution to ubuntu is not technical contirbution to the loco team | 16:22 |
| thelinuxer | asl it seems reasonable that people working in the team should shape the future of team | 16:22 |
| seif | excatly | 16:22 |
| ashams | thelinuxer, I meant, sub-teams, each specialized in something like support team or graphics one | 16:22 |
| seif | ashams, that is a good idea | 16:23 |
| seif | but those teams would normally consists out of 2 or 3 ppl | 16:23 |
| ashams | not our problem as long as it's open for everyone to join | 16:24 |
| ashams | and only meritocracy governs | 16:24 |
| seif | yep | 16:25 |
| seif | just make sure ppl dont "hold" to a position | 16:25 |
| seif | and be open to let others contirbute | 16:25 |
| thelinuxer | i guess we agree on almost all the points | 16:25 |
| ashams | ppl want to join support team, give some support on forums, irc, etc, then prepare application and go for approval to join such focus group | 16:25 |
| seif | thelinuxer, yep | 16:25 |
| thelinuxer | the idea behind this is to make things more clear for people to join | 16:25 |
| seif | ashams, i think it should be more informal | 16:25 |
| thelinuxer | and have somewhat structured teams | 16:25 |
| seif | else u take the fun out of it | 16:26 |
| seif | ubuntu is about having fun | 16:26 |
| seif | when somethign gets too organized its not much fun | 16:26 |
| ashams | yeah | 16:26 |
| seif | i would reocmmend the gnome process over the ubutnu process | 16:26 |
| thelinuxer | ashams: nope, people can join instantly as long as they can do the job | 16:26 |
| thelinuxer | approval is needed later. | 16:26 |
| thelinuxer | seif: tell us the gnome process | 16:26 |
| seif | thelinuxer, u apply for gnome membership stating things you have done for gnome and adding to referneces to vouch for you work | 16:27 |
| seif | these 2 references are the questioned | 16:27 |
| seif | and if they say that your good then u r a gnom emember | 16:27 |
| seif | :) | 16:27 |
| thelinuxer | how's that different from the ubuntu membership process ? | 16:27 |
| seif | no public voting | 16:28 |
| seif | when u apply u dont have to set up ur wiki for ppl to write statements | 16:28 |
| seif | but rather do it in private | 16:28 |
| seif | u send out a formula to gnome-membership with 2 references of already existing gnome members | 16:29 |
| seif | those are than contacted by the admin to approve the "vouching" | 16:29 |
| seif | when done its done | 16:29 |
| ashams | seif, this can involve a lot of "wasta" in here, though I like it :D | 16:29 |
| thelinuxer | ah ok like the debian-maintainer process | 16:29 |
| seif | ashams, very true :) | 16:29 |
| thelinuxer | seif: I guess having things private is not a real privilege | 16:30 |
| seif | thelinuxer, problem is sometimes grudges are there | 16:31 |
| ashams | ouch! | 16:31 |
| seif | example if i werent a gnome member now and would have applied this week with a process liek ubuntu i wouldnt be accepted | 16:31 |
| seif | because some RH ppl dont like me | 16:31 |
| thelinuxer | gnome process uses the chain of trust theory | 16:32 |
| seif | while the gnome process allows curroption the ubuntu process is subject to "discriminatin" | 16:32 |
| thelinuxer | of 2 members already say ur good then u have to be good | 16:32 |
| thelinuxer | if* | 16:32 |
| seif | lets say we are the voting process in ubuntu-members | 16:33 |
| thelinuxer | while the other process allows you to get membership without knowing anyone involved in the process | 16:33 |
| seif | and me and ashams dont like X who just applied for membershio | 16:33 |
| seif | we can acknowldege his wokr but we htink he is a cancer and he will cause harm i nthe community | 16:33 |
| seif | just because we feel threatend by him | 16:33 |
| * ashams smells bureaucracy | 16:34 | |
| thelinuxer | yes it can happen | 16:34 |
| thelinuxer | but i don't feel it will be a real threat | 16:34 |
| seif | trust me it is | 16:34 |
| seif | :) | 16:34 |
| seif | i am in gnome, ubuntu, elementary and kde | 16:34 |
| thelinuxer | it depends on how we choose our council | 16:34 |
| seif | i am in the council of elementary | 16:34 |
| seif | things can get very biased sometimes when accepting new ppl | 16:35 |
| thelinuxer | i guess the rejection needs to be followed by reasons and guidance to get accepted | 16:35 |
| ashams | get accepted by who? | 16:37 |
| thelinuxer | a council | 16:37 |
| thelinuxer | IMO I guess a public/transparent process will protect the community more than a private one | 16:37 |
| thelinuxer | specially eno fe3lan el wasta 3andena 7atel3ab awi | 16:37 |
| seif | i like the idea of a councilo | 16:37 |
| seif | but the council should not approve/disapprove ppl | 16:37 |
| seif | the council is for moderating and manmanging the team | 16:38 |
| ashams | yeah | 16:38 |
| seif | for membership we should use the gnome process | 16:38 |
| ashams | so should wehave some another body | 16:38 |
| seif | some1 wants to apply he send in a letter with 2 names form team who can vouc hfor them | 16:38 |
| seif | s/them/him | 16:38 |
| seif | ashams, no need really | 16:39 |
| seif | one or 2 ppl in the loco team should be repsonsible for moderaint g new membership requests | 16:39 |
| seif | by receicing them | 16:39 |
| seif | getting the vouches | 16:39 |
| seif | then accepting or rejecting | 16:39 |
| ashams | i prefer if it's more open | 16:40 |
| seif | ashams, open in terms of transparent ? | 16:40 |
| ashams | like anyone can share judging the candidate | 16:40 |
| seif | ofcourse when some1 vouches for or against you you are also cced with the reply | 16:40 |
| seif | ashams, i dont want be judged by you | 16:41 |
| seif | that is not fair | 16:41 |
| ashams | right | 16:41 |
| seif | i want to pick those who can judge me best | 16:41 |
| ashams | so you'll ask the whole team to say what they think | 16:41 |
| seif | no | 16:41 |
| seif | because u could influence them | 16:41 |
| seif | :) | 16:41 |
| thelinuxer | i guess we will go in loops here | 16:42 |
| thelinuxer | we have the ubuntu process and the gnome process | 16:42 |
| seif | thelinuxer, ubuntu process is very humiliating if you are rejected in public | 16:43 |
| seif | and also very weird if u get rejected behind closed doors without knowing why | 16:43 |
| ashams | seif, don't u think that this will leave some hole for wasta, and on the long run can cause some persons join only coz they know some1 inside | 16:43 |
| seif | ashams, so? | 16:43 |
| seif | thsoe ppl will then leave at some point | 16:43 |
| seif | most of them dont hang around for long | 16:44 |
| thelinuxer | seif: ur only problem is rejection | 16:44 |
| seif | as u said its a meritocracy | 16:44 |
| thelinuxer | people get rejected because they didn't do enough work | 16:44 |
| seif | its like a german saying | 16:44 |
| thelinuxer | from the council perspective | 16:44 |
| seif | if u audition for a porn movie and get rejected you dont want the ppl t know publicly u got rejected for your small dick | 16:45 |
| seif | lol | 16:45 |
| thelinuxer | looooooool | 16:45 |
| ashams | ROFL | 16:45 |
| thelinuxer | i will have to kick you for using such words :D | 16:45 |
| seif | that is my only concern wiht the voting process in ubuntu | 16:45 |
| thelinuxer | bos | 16:45 |
| thelinuxer | i don't think it's that big of a deal | 16:45 |
| seif | its not | 16:46 |
| seif | i am good either way which pricess u guys choose | 16:46 |
| seif | i ma just telling you hwat options are there | 16:46 |
| thelinuxer | we can put a rule like "Don't apply for membership unless you have joined the team for X month" | 16:46 |
| ashams | great | 16:46 |
| thelinuxer | in these X month you have to show bla bla | 16:46 |
| seif | thelinuxer, how do u define "X month" | 16:46 |
| ashams | and that team leader should be a referance | 16:46 |
| thelinuxer | trial and error | 16:46 |
| thelinuxer | make it 3 month el awel and see if it's good enough and re adjust and so on | 16:47 |
| thelinuxer | we need active team members | 16:47 |
| seif | thelinuxer, i have a counter proposal | 16:47 |
| seif | .... | 16:47 |
| thelinuxer | and we need to know what they are actually doing | 16:47 |
| seif | we have a membership commitee | 16:47 |
| thelinuxer | go on .. | 16:47 |
| seif | a person wants to join the team | 16:47 |
| seif | he writes a propsoal with his "work for the team" and his references | 16:48 |
| seif | the references are contacted by the memberhisp committee to approve or disapprove the vouching | 16:48 |
| seif | if approved the committee gets to review the proposal again for any last rejections if they feel the person is coming in wasta | 16:49 |
| ashams | nice | 16:49 |
| thelinuxer | seif: fine I guess | 16:50 |
| seif | :) | 16:50 |
| thelinuxer | and more of less this is what's going to happen | 16:50 |
| seif | ok cool | 16:51 |
| thelinuxer | we are a small team, people will get advise of other team members before applying officially | 16:51 |
| seif | exactly | 16:51 |
| seif | so i need advice :) | 16:51 |
| thelinuxer | masalan people always ask me if they can apply for ubuntu membership delwa2ty walla la2 (zay makoon ana sa7eb el council :D ) | 16:51 |
| seif | problem is i dont live in egypt | 16:51 |
| seif | :P | 16:51 |
| thelinuxer | actually this is one of the things we need to improve | 16:51 |
| thelinuxer | our online activity | 16:51 |
| seif | yeah | 16:52 |
| seif | a forum would be awesome | 16:52 |
| thelinuxer | for distant members to be able to join in | 16:52 |
| ashams | yeeeeeeeeeeeees | 16:52 |
| thelinuxer | we have a forum(a dead one) | 16:52 |
| thelinuxer | people use facebook awi ba2a ... | 16:52 |
| seif | gnome doesnt have a forum or real facebook page where the mmebrs tlak | 16:52 |
| seif | its mostly irc and mailing lists | 16:52 |
| ashams | can we ask members to subscribe to the forum so it revives | 16:53 |
| thelinuxer | well it's kind of a cultural thing | 16:53 |
| ashams | maybe redirect support requests to forum from fb too | 16:53 |
| thelinuxer | ashams: i actually can't find use for the forums, we get almost all questions on facebook | 16:53 |
| thelinuxer | y bother ourselves with another channel | 16:54 |
| thelinuxer | i really need to run now | 16:54 |
| ashams | we can tell ppl to go to forums, shut that on fb and keep open only on forums | 16:54 |
| thelinuxer | i guess we will have to redirect this talk to the mailing list to get it started ba2a | 16:54 |
| ashams | yeah | 16:54 |
| thelinuxer | ashams: y ? people would just run away from us like this | 16:55 |
| ashams | disadvantage :) | 16:55 |
| thelinuxer | tayeb I will try to call u tomorrow ba2a to finalize stuff then forward everything to the mailing list | 16:55 |
| thelinuxer | bye guys | 16:55 |
| ashams | seif haydrabni | 16:56 |
| ashams | :P | 16:56 |
| thelinuxer | seif: balash tedrabo lama amshy :D | 16:56 |
| thelinuxer | salam ba2a | 16:56 |
| seif | bye bye | 16:57 |
| seif | :) | 16:57 |
| * seif hits ashams with a stick | 16:57 | |
| ashams | Ouch! | 16:57 |
| ashams | seif, btw: we don't say 2a7a with "2" we just say a7a | 16:57 |
| ashams | brb | 16:58 |
| seif | i am old school | 17:01 |
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