[15:51] <ashams> thelinuxer, why we need to decide who can be nominated and who can not? I think this is the reason for a First Council idea, right?
[15:52] <thelinuxer> ashams: hey shams
[15:52] <ashams> thelinuxer, hey ya man
[15:52] <ashams> h r u?
[15:53] <thelinuxer> ashams: fine :)
[15:53] <thelinuxer> of course we need to decide
[15:53] <thelinuxer> ana mesh fahem awi el so2al
[15:53] <ashams> lol
[15:54] <ashams> why we can't just make open for anyone to nominate him/herself
[15:54] <thelinuxer> so we can have a council member who never did anything in the team ?
[15:55] <ashams> confusing
[15:55] <thelinuxer> what's confusing ?
[15:55] <ashams> newcomers won't dare t o nominate themselves
[15:56] <thelinuxer> and y should we count on this ? i guess nominees can only be from the current team members
[15:56] <ashams> meritocracy is a high importance
[15:56] <thelinuxer> current approved team members
[15:56] <thelinuxer> yes of course bas we should protect ourselves against sabotage
[15:58] <ashams> right
[15:58] <thelinuxer> hence we need to provide basic rules for nominations
[15:58] <thelinuxer> bas keda
[15:59] <ashams> yes, but approval is open for any one, team is open to join
[15:59] <thelinuxer> exactly
[15:59] <ashams> this won't help prevent sabotage
[15:59] <thelinuxer> it will help
[15:59] <thelinuxer> council will approve members
[16:00] <thelinuxer> then these members can nominate themselves
[16:00] <ashams> that's exactly what I want to avoid
[16:00] <ashams> ppl will feel like governed by no clear rules
[16:00] <thelinuxer> not necessarily
[16:01] <ashams> any ideas about how to decide who can be approved and who can not
[16:01] <thelinuxer> look what we are trying to achieve is getting the team more organized
[16:01] <ashams> right
[16:02] <ashams> just needs to be clear rules
[16:02] <thelinuxer> ideas about how to approve ...
[16:02] <ashams> how ppl gain the right to nominate themselves
[16:02] <thelinuxer> gaining the right is simply by becoming approved ...
[16:03] <ashams> lol
[16:03] <ashams> and how can they be approved
[16:03] <thelinuxer> becoming approved may have the same rules like ubuntu official membership
[16:03] <ashams> by joining
[16:03] <thelinuxer> that's for starters
[16:03] <ashams> aha now I started to understand
[16:04] <ashams> I think there should be 2 levels of joining
[16:04] <ashams> approved and non-approved
[16:04] <thelinuxer> exactly
[16:05] <ashams> so do you have ideas of conditions for approving ppl?
[16:06] <thelinuxer> sustainable effort in the team
[16:07] <ashams> won't this split the team
[16:07] <thelinuxer> like joining a certain subteam (mansoura team or graphics  teamfor example)
[16:07] <thelinuxer> split ezay ?
[16:08] <ashams> I mean being approved not like being non-
[16:08] <thelinuxer> don't call it unapproved
[16:08] <thelinuxer> call it approval in progress :D
[16:09] <ashams> lol
[16:09] <ashams> nominate yourself for the next elections :P
[16:09] <ashams> in ppls assemply
[16:10] <seif> what r u guys talking about
[16:10] <ashams> seif,  wenta malak ?
[16:11] <ashams> :P
[16:11] <seif> again what r u talking about
[16:11] <seif> ?
[16:11] <thelinuxer> a proposal to have a council for the team
[16:11] <ashams> again, Wenta malak ?
[16:11] <ashams> again :P
[16:11] <seif> ashams, it wasnt funny the first time its not funny the second time
[16:12] <ashams> it is funny funny from here though
[16:12] <seif> as a public irc channel for ppl wanting to join u should try to be more helpful than giving me a hard time to figure something out :)
[16:12] <seif> good for you that you laugh on your own jokes
[16:12] <seif> thelinuxer, u need a council for the team to be an approved loco right?
[16:12] <ashams> :D
[16:13] <thelinuxer> seif: malak grumpy keda leeh he was just kidding
[16:13] <ashams> bad mood
[16:13] <seif> thelinuxer, i am usually straight ot the point guy :)
[16:13] <thelinuxer> seif: no we don't "need" it, it's just something to help us get organized
[16:14] <seif> thelinuxer, very good idea
[16:14] <seif> reading the backlog now
[16:14] <seif> thelinuxer, define <thelinuxer> sustainable effort in the team
[16:14] <ashams> enjoy
[16:15] <thelinuxer> the same thing as it is with the current ubuntu membership process
[16:15] <thelinuxer> we will need to define it even more for our specific case
[16:15] <thelinuxer> this is just a guideline
[16:16] <seif> thelinuxer, i recommend not copying the ubuntu guidelines that much
[16:16] <seif> ubuntu membership does not require you to be active in the ubuntu community
[16:16] <seif> where areas a loco team would require you to be like that
[16:18] <thelinuxer> can u please clarify the last 2 sentences. I don't get it
[16:19] <thelinuxer> seif: first, we will need to define our own rules as I said. Sustainable effort in the team seems reasonable. To be part of the team you have to do something for the team. (We can still discuss this point)
[16:20] <ashams> it can be done throgh history of careers in the team
[16:20] <thelinuxer> history of careers ?
[16:20] <ashams> like support, graphics or so
[16:20] <seif> e.g: some1 like me shouldnt really be an ubuntu-eg loco member :)
[16:20] <seif> i shouldnt get a vote
[16:20] <ashams> exactly
[16:20] <seif> because i dont contribute to the team
[16:21] <seif> although i am an ubuntu member and i get to vote in ubuntu
[16:21] <thelinuxer> seif: so we need to define what contribution is
[16:22] <seif> thelinuxer, exactly
[16:22] <seif> technical contirbution to ubuntu is not technical contirbution to the loco team
[16:22] <thelinuxer> asl it seems reasonable that people working in the team should shape the future of team
[16:22] <seif> excatly
[16:22] <ashams> thelinuxer, I meant, sub-teams, each specialized in something like support team or graphics one
[16:23] <seif> ashams, that is a good idea
[16:23] <seif> but those teams would normally consists out of 2 or 3 ppl
[16:24] <ashams> not our problem as long as it's open for everyone to join
[16:24] <ashams> and only meritocracy governs
[16:25] <seif> yep
[16:25] <seif> just make sure ppl dont "hold" to a position
[16:25] <seif> and be open to let others contirbute
[16:25] <thelinuxer> i guess we agree on almost all the points
[16:25] <ashams> ppl want to join support team, give some support on forums, irc, etc, then prepare application and go for approval to join such focus group
[16:25] <seif> thelinuxer, yep
[16:25] <thelinuxer> the idea behind this is to make things more clear for people to join
[16:25] <seif> ashams, i think it should be more informal
[16:25] <thelinuxer> and have somewhat structured teams
[16:26] <seif> else u take the fun out of it
[16:26] <seif> ubuntu is about having fun
[16:26] <seif> when somethign gets too organized its not much fun
[16:26] <ashams> yeah
[16:26] <seif> i would reocmmend the gnome process over the ubutnu process
[16:26] <thelinuxer> ashams: nope, people can join instantly as long as they can do the job
[16:26] <thelinuxer> approval is needed later.
[16:26] <thelinuxer> seif: tell us the gnome process
[16:27] <seif> thelinuxer, u apply for gnome membership stating things you have done for gnome and adding to referneces to vouch for you work
[16:27] <seif> these 2 references are the questioned
[16:27] <seif> and if they say that your good then u r a gnom emember
[16:27] <seif> :)
[16:27] <thelinuxer> how's that different from the ubuntu membership process ?
[16:28] <seif> no public voting
[16:28] <seif> when u apply u dont have to set up ur wiki for ppl to write statements
[16:28] <seif> but rather do it in private
[16:29] <seif> u send out a formula to gnome-membership with 2 references of already existing gnome members
[16:29] <seif> those are than contacted by the admin to approve the "vouching"
[16:29] <seif> when done its done
[16:29] <ashams> seif, this can involve a lot of "wasta" in here, though I like it :D
[16:29] <thelinuxer> ah ok like the debian-maintainer process
[16:29] <seif> ashams, very true :)
[16:30] <thelinuxer> seif: I guess having things private is not a real privilege
[16:31] <seif> thelinuxer, problem is sometimes grudges are there
[16:31] <ashams> ouch!
[16:31] <seif> example if i werent a gnome member now and would have applied this week with a process liek ubuntu i wouldnt be accepted
[16:31] <seif> because some RH ppl dont like me
[16:32] <thelinuxer> gnome process uses the chain of trust theory
[16:32] <seif> while the gnome process allows curroption the ubuntu process is subject to "discriminatin"
[16:32] <thelinuxer> of 2 members already say ur good then u have to be good
[16:32] <thelinuxer> if*
[16:33] <seif> lets say we are the voting process in ubuntu-members
[16:33] <thelinuxer> while the other process allows you to get membership without knowing anyone involved in the process
[16:33] <seif> and me and ashams dont like X who just applied for membershio
[16:33] <seif> we can acknowldege his wokr but we htink he is a cancer and he will cause harm i nthe community
[16:33] <seif> just because we feel threatend by him
[16:34]  * ashams smells bureaucracy
[16:34] <thelinuxer> yes it can happen
[16:34] <thelinuxer> but i don't feel it will be a real threat
[16:34] <seif> trust me it is
[16:34] <seif> :)
[16:34] <seif> i am in gnome, ubuntu, elementary and kde
[16:34] <thelinuxer> it depends on how we choose our council
[16:34] <seif> i am in the council of elementary
[16:35] <seif> things can get very biased sometimes when accepting new ppl
[16:35] <thelinuxer> i guess the rejection needs to be followed by reasons and guidance to get accepted
[16:37] <ashams> get accepted by who?
[16:37] <thelinuxer> a council
[16:37] <thelinuxer> IMO I guess a public/transparent process will protect the community more than a private one
[16:37] <thelinuxer> specially eno fe3lan el wasta 3andena 7atel3ab awi
[16:37] <seif> i like the idea of a councilo
[16:37] <seif> but the council should not approve/disapprove ppl
[16:38] <seif> the council is for moderating and manmanging the team
[16:38] <ashams> yeah
[16:38] <seif> for membership we should use the gnome process
[16:38] <ashams> so should wehave some another body
[16:38] <seif> some1 wants to apply he send in a letter with 2 names form team who can vouc hfor them
[16:38] <seif> s/them/him
[16:39] <seif> ashams, no need really
[16:39] <seif> one or 2 ppl in the loco team should be repsonsible for moderaint g new membership requests
[16:39] <seif> by receicing them
[16:39] <seif> getting the vouches
[16:39] <seif> then accepting or rejecting
[16:40] <ashams> i prefer if it's more open
[16:40] <seif> ashams, open in terms of transparent ?
[16:40] <ashams> like anyone can share judging the candidate
[16:40] <seif> ofcourse when some1 vouches for or against you you are also cced with the reply
[16:41] <seif> ashams, i dont want be judged by you
[16:41] <seif> that is not fair
[16:41] <ashams> right
[16:41] <seif> i want to pick those who can judge me best
[16:41] <ashams> so you'll ask the whole team to say what they think
[16:41] <seif> no
[16:41] <seif> because u could influence them
[16:41] <seif> :)
[16:42] <thelinuxer> i guess we will go in loops here
[16:42] <thelinuxer> we have the ubuntu process and the gnome process
[16:43] <seif> thelinuxer, ubuntu process is very humiliating if you are rejected in public
[16:43] <seif> and also very weird if u get rejected behind closed doors without knowing why
[16:43] <ashams> seif, don't u think that this will leave some hole for wasta, and on the long run can cause some persons join only coz they know some1 inside
[16:43] <seif> ashams, so?
[16:43] <seif> thsoe ppl will then leave at some point
[16:44] <seif> most of them dont hang around for long
[16:44] <thelinuxer> seif: ur only problem is rejection
[16:44] <seif> as u said its a meritocracy
[16:44] <thelinuxer> people get rejected because they didn't do enough work
[16:44] <seif> its like a german saying
[16:44] <thelinuxer> from the council perspective
[16:45] <seif> if u audition for a porn movie and get rejected you dont want the ppl t know publicly u got rejected for your small dick
[16:45] <seif> lol
[16:45] <thelinuxer> looooooool
[16:45] <ashams> ROFL
[16:45] <thelinuxer> i will have to kick you for using such words :D
[16:45] <seif> that is my only  concern wiht the voting process in ubuntu
[16:45] <thelinuxer> bos
[16:45] <thelinuxer> i don't think it's that big of a deal
[16:46] <seif> its not
[16:46] <seif> i am good either way which pricess u guys choose
[16:46] <seif> i ma just telling you hwat options are there
[16:46] <thelinuxer> we can put a rule like "Don't apply for membership unless you have joined the team for X month"
[16:46] <ashams> great
[16:46] <thelinuxer> in these X month you have to show bla bla
[16:46] <seif> thelinuxer, how do u define "X month"
[16:46] <ashams> and that team leader should be a referance
[16:46] <thelinuxer> trial and error
[16:47] <thelinuxer> make it 3 month el awel and see if it's good enough and re adjust and so on
[16:47] <thelinuxer> we need active team members
[16:47] <seif> thelinuxer, i have a counter proposal
[16:47] <seif> ....
[16:47] <thelinuxer> and we need to know what they are actually doing
[16:47] <seif> we have a membership commitee
[16:47] <thelinuxer> go on ..
[16:47] <seif> a person wants to join the team
[16:48] <seif> he writes a propsoal with his "work for the team" and his references
[16:48] <seif> the references are contacted by the memberhisp committee to approve  or disapprove the vouching
[16:49] <seif> if approved the committee gets to review the proposal again for any last rejections if they feel the person is coming in wasta
[16:49] <ashams> nice
[16:50] <thelinuxer> seif: fine I guess
[16:50] <seif> :)
[16:50] <thelinuxer> and more of less this is what's going to happen
[16:51] <seif> ok cool
[16:51] <thelinuxer> we are a small team, people  will get advise of other team members before applying officially
[16:51] <seif> exactly
[16:51] <seif> so i need advice :)
[16:51] <thelinuxer> masalan people always ask me if they can apply for ubuntu membership delwa2ty walla la2 (zay makoon ana sa7eb el council :D )
[16:51] <seif> problem is i dont live in egypt
[16:51] <seif> :P
[16:51] <thelinuxer> actually this is one of the things we need to improve
[16:51] <thelinuxer> our online activity
[16:52] <seif> yeah
[16:52] <seif> a forum would be awesome
[16:52] <thelinuxer> for distant members to be able to join in
[16:52] <ashams> yeeeeeeeeeeeees
[16:52] <thelinuxer> we have a forum(a dead one)
[16:52] <thelinuxer> people use facebook awi ba2a ...
[16:52] <seif> gnome doesnt have a forum or real facebook page where the mmebrs tlak
[16:52] <seif> its mostly irc and mailing lists
[16:53] <ashams> can we ask members to subscribe to the forum so it revives
[16:53] <thelinuxer> well it's kind of a cultural thing
[16:53] <ashams> maybe redirect support requests to forum from fb too
[16:53] <thelinuxer> ashams: i actually can't find use for the forums, we get almost all questions on facebook
[16:54] <thelinuxer> y bother ourselves with another channel
[16:54] <thelinuxer> i really need to run now
[16:54] <ashams> we can tell ppl to go to forums, shut that on fb and keep open only on forums
[16:54] <thelinuxer> i guess we will have to redirect this talk to the mailing list to get it started ba2a
[16:54] <ashams> yeah
[16:55] <thelinuxer> ashams: y ? people would just run away from us like this
[16:55] <ashams> disadvantage :)
[16:55] <thelinuxer> tayeb I will try to call u tomorrow ba2a to finalize stuff then forward everything to the mailing list
[16:55] <thelinuxer> bye guys
[16:56] <ashams> seif haydrabni
[16:56] <ashams> :P
[16:56] <thelinuxer> seif: balash tedrabo lama amshy :D
[16:56] <thelinuxer> salam ba2a
[16:57] <seif> bye bye
[16:57] <seif> :)
[16:57]  * seif  hits ashams with a stick
[16:57] <ashams> Ouch!
[16:57] <ashams> seif, btw: we don't say 2a7a with "2" we just say a7a
[16:58] <ashams> brb
[17:01] <seif> i am old school