[15:51] thelinuxer, why we need to decide who can be nominated and who can not? I think this is the reason for a First Council idea, right? [15:52] ashams: hey shams [15:52] thelinuxer, hey ya man [15:52] h r u? [15:53] ashams: fine :) [15:53] of course we need to decide [15:53] ana mesh fahem awi el so2al [15:53] lol [15:54] why we can't just make open for anyone to nominate him/herself [15:54] so we can have a council member who never did anything in the team ? [15:55] confusing [15:55] what's confusing ? [15:55] newcomers won't dare t o nominate themselves [15:56] and y should we count on this ? i guess nominees can only be from the current team members [15:56] meritocracy is a high importance [15:56] current approved team members [15:56] yes of course bas we should protect ourselves against sabotage [15:58] right [15:58] hence we need to provide basic rules for nominations [15:58] bas keda [15:59] yes, but approval is open for any one, team is open to join [15:59] exactly [15:59] this won't help prevent sabotage [15:59] it will help [15:59] council will approve members [16:00] then these members can nominate themselves [16:00] that's exactly what I want to avoid [16:00] ppl will feel like governed by no clear rules [16:00] not necessarily [16:01] any ideas about how to decide who can be approved and who can not [16:01] look what we are trying to achieve is getting the team more organized [16:01] right [16:02] just needs to be clear rules [16:02] ideas about how to approve ... [16:02] how ppl gain the right to nominate themselves [16:02] gaining the right is simply by becoming approved ... [16:03] lol [16:03] and how can they be approved [16:03] becoming approved may have the same rules like ubuntu official membership [16:03] by joining [16:03] that's for starters [16:03] aha now I started to understand [16:04] I think there should be 2 levels of joining [16:04] approved and non-approved [16:04] exactly [16:05] so do you have ideas of conditions for approving ppl? [16:06] sustainable effort in the team [16:07] won't this split the team [16:07] like joining a certain subteam (mansoura team or graphics teamfor example) [16:07] split ezay ? [16:08] I mean being approved not like being non- [16:08] don't call it unapproved [16:08] call it approval in progress :D [16:09] lol [16:09] nominate yourself for the next elections :P [16:09] in ppls assemply [16:10] what r u guys talking about [16:10] seif, wenta malak ? [16:11] :P [16:11] again what r u talking about [16:11] ? [16:11] a proposal to have a council for the team [16:11] again, Wenta malak ? [16:11] again :P [16:11] ashams, it wasnt funny the first time its not funny the second time [16:12] it is funny funny from here though [16:12] as a public irc channel for ppl wanting to join u should try to be more helpful than giving me a hard time to figure something out :) [16:12] good for you that you laugh on your own jokes [16:12] thelinuxer, u need a council for the team to be an approved loco right? [16:12] :D [16:13] seif: malak grumpy keda leeh he was just kidding [16:13] bad mood [16:13] thelinuxer, i am usually straight ot the point guy :) [16:13] seif: no we don't "need" it, it's just something to help us get organized [16:14] thelinuxer, very good idea [16:14] reading the backlog now [16:14] thelinuxer, define sustainable effort in the team [16:14] enjoy [16:15] the same thing as it is with the current ubuntu membership process [16:15] we will need to define it even more for our specific case [16:15] this is just a guideline [16:16] thelinuxer, i recommend not copying the ubuntu guidelines that much [16:16] ubuntu membership does not require you to be active in the ubuntu community [16:16] where areas a loco team would require you to be like that [16:18] can u please clarify the last 2 sentences. I don't get it [16:19] seif: first, we will need to define our own rules as I said. Sustainable effort in the team seems reasonable. To be part of the team you have to do something for the team. (We can still discuss this point) [16:20] it can be done throgh history of careers in the team [16:20] history of careers ? [16:20] like support, graphics or so [16:20] e.g: some1 like me shouldnt really be an ubuntu-eg loco member :) [16:20] i shouldnt get a vote [16:20] exactly [16:20] because i dont contribute to the team [16:21] although i am an ubuntu member and i get to vote in ubuntu [16:21] seif: so we need to define what contribution is [16:22] thelinuxer, exactly [16:22] technical contirbution to ubuntu is not technical contirbution to the loco team [16:22] asl it seems reasonable that people working in the team should shape the future of team [16:22] excatly [16:22] thelinuxer, I meant, sub-teams, each specialized in something like support team or graphics one [16:23] ashams, that is a good idea [16:23] but those teams would normally consists out of 2 or 3 ppl [16:24] not our problem as long as it's open for everyone to join [16:24] and only meritocracy governs [16:25] yep [16:25] just make sure ppl dont "hold" to a position [16:25] and be open to let others contirbute [16:25] i guess we agree on almost all the points [16:25] ppl want to join support team, give some support on forums, irc, etc, then prepare application and go for approval to join such focus group [16:25] thelinuxer, yep [16:25] the idea behind this is to make things more clear for people to join [16:25] ashams, i think it should be more informal [16:25] and have somewhat structured teams [16:26] else u take the fun out of it [16:26] ubuntu is about having fun [16:26] when somethign gets too organized its not much fun [16:26] yeah [16:26] i would reocmmend the gnome process over the ubutnu process [16:26] ashams: nope, people can join instantly as long as they can do the job [16:26] approval is needed later. [16:26] seif: tell us the gnome process [16:27] thelinuxer, u apply for gnome membership stating things you have done for gnome and adding to referneces to vouch for you work [16:27] these 2 references are the questioned [16:27] and if they say that your good then u r a gnom emember [16:27] :) [16:27] how's that different from the ubuntu membership process ? [16:28] no public voting [16:28] when u apply u dont have to set up ur wiki for ppl to write statements [16:28] but rather do it in private [16:29] u send out a formula to gnome-membership with 2 references of already existing gnome members [16:29] those are than contacted by the admin to approve the "vouching" [16:29] when done its done [16:29] seif, this can involve a lot of "wasta" in here, though I like it :D [16:29] ah ok like the debian-maintainer process [16:29] ashams, very true :) [16:30] seif: I guess having things private is not a real privilege [16:31] thelinuxer, problem is sometimes grudges are there [16:31] ouch! [16:31] example if i werent a gnome member now and would have applied this week with a process liek ubuntu i wouldnt be accepted [16:31] because some RH ppl dont like me [16:32] gnome process uses the chain of trust theory [16:32] while the gnome process allows curroption the ubuntu process is subject to "discriminatin" [16:32] of 2 members already say ur good then u have to be good [16:32] if* [16:33] lets say we are the voting process in ubuntu-members [16:33] while the other process allows you to get membership without knowing anyone involved in the process [16:33] and me and ashams dont like X who just applied for membershio [16:33] we can acknowldege his wokr but we htink he is a cancer and he will cause harm i nthe community [16:33] just because we feel threatend by him [16:34] * ashams smells bureaucracy [16:34] yes it can happen [16:34] but i don't feel it will be a real threat [16:34] trust me it is [16:34] :) [16:34] i am in gnome, ubuntu, elementary and kde [16:34] it depends on how we choose our council [16:34] i am in the council of elementary [16:35] things can get very biased sometimes when accepting new ppl [16:35] i guess the rejection needs to be followed by reasons and guidance to get accepted [16:37] get accepted by who? [16:37] a council [16:37] IMO I guess a public/transparent process will protect the community more than a private one [16:37] specially eno fe3lan el wasta 3andena 7atel3ab awi [16:37] i like the idea of a councilo [16:37] but the council should not approve/disapprove ppl [16:38] the council is for moderating and manmanging the team [16:38] yeah [16:38] for membership we should use the gnome process [16:38] so should wehave some another body [16:38] some1 wants to apply he send in a letter with 2 names form team who can vouc hfor them [16:38] s/them/him [16:39] ashams, no need really [16:39] one or 2 ppl in the loco team should be repsonsible for moderaint g new membership requests [16:39] by receicing them [16:39] getting the vouches [16:39] then accepting or rejecting [16:40] i prefer if it's more open [16:40] ashams, open in terms of transparent ? [16:40] like anyone can share judging the candidate [16:40] ofcourse when some1 vouches for or against you you are also cced with the reply [16:41] ashams, i dont want be judged by you [16:41] that is not fair [16:41] right [16:41] i want to pick those who can judge me best [16:41] so you'll ask the whole team to say what they think [16:41] no [16:41] because u could influence them [16:41] :) [16:42] i guess we will go in loops here [16:42] we have the ubuntu process and the gnome process [16:43] thelinuxer, ubuntu process is very humiliating if you are rejected in public [16:43] and also very weird if u get rejected behind closed doors without knowing why [16:43] seif, don't u think that this will leave some hole for wasta, and on the long run can cause some persons join only coz they know some1 inside [16:43] ashams, so? [16:43] thsoe ppl will then leave at some point [16:44] most of them dont hang around for long [16:44] seif: ur only problem is rejection [16:44] as u said its a meritocracy [16:44] people get rejected because they didn't do enough work [16:44] its like a german saying [16:44] from the council perspective [16:45] if u audition for a porn movie and get rejected you dont want the ppl t know publicly u got rejected for your small dick [16:45] lol [16:45] looooooool [16:45] ROFL [16:45] i will have to kick you for using such words :D [16:45] that is my only concern wiht the voting process in ubuntu [16:45] bos [16:45] i don't think it's that big of a deal [16:46] its not [16:46] i am good either way which pricess u guys choose [16:46] i ma just telling you hwat options are there [16:46] we can put a rule like "Don't apply for membership unless you have joined the team for X month" [16:46] great [16:46] in these X month you have to show bla bla [16:46] thelinuxer, how do u define "X month" [16:46] and that team leader should be a referance [16:46] trial and error [16:47] make it 3 month el awel and see if it's good enough and re adjust and so on [16:47] we need active team members [16:47] thelinuxer, i have a counter proposal [16:47] .... [16:47] and we need to know what they are actually doing [16:47] we have a membership commitee [16:47] go on .. [16:47] a person wants to join the team [16:48] he writes a propsoal with his "work for the team" and his references [16:48] the references are contacted by the memberhisp committee to approve or disapprove the vouching [16:49] if approved the committee gets to review the proposal again for any last rejections if they feel the person is coming in wasta [16:49] nice [16:50] seif: fine I guess [16:50] :) [16:50] and more of less this is what's going to happen [16:51] ok cool [16:51] we are a small team, people will get advise of other team members before applying officially [16:51] exactly [16:51] so i need advice :) [16:51] masalan people always ask me if they can apply for ubuntu membership delwa2ty walla la2 (zay makoon ana sa7eb el council :D ) [16:51] problem is i dont live in egypt [16:51] :P [16:51] actually this is one of the things we need to improve [16:51] our online activity [16:52] yeah [16:52] a forum would be awesome [16:52] for distant members to be able to join in [16:52] yeeeeeeeeeeeees [16:52] we have a forum(a dead one) [16:52] people use facebook awi ba2a ... [16:52] gnome doesnt have a forum or real facebook page where the mmebrs tlak [16:52] its mostly irc and mailing lists [16:53] can we ask members to subscribe to the forum so it revives [16:53] well it's kind of a cultural thing [16:53] maybe redirect support requests to forum from fb too [16:53] ashams: i actually can't find use for the forums, we get almost all questions on facebook [16:54] y bother ourselves with another channel [16:54] i really need to run now [16:54] we can tell ppl to go to forums, shut that on fb and keep open only on forums [16:54] i guess we will have to redirect this talk to the mailing list to get it started ba2a [16:54] yeah [16:55] ashams: y ? people would just run away from us like this [16:55] disadvantage :) [16:55] tayeb I will try to call u tomorrow ba2a to finalize stuff then forward everything to the mailing list [16:55] bye guys [16:56] seif haydrabni [16:56] :P [16:56] seif: balash tedrabo lama amshy :D [16:56] salam ba2a [16:57] bye bye [16:57] :) [16:57] * seif hits ashams with a stick [16:57] Ouch! [16:57] seif, btw: we don't say 2a7a with "2" we just say a7a [16:58] brb [17:01] i am old school