[10:50] <amithkk> No actibity?
[13:43] <ppisati> ogra_: you mentioned some options for squashfs, right?
[13:43] <ogra_> ppisati, come over to a proper channel :)
[14:59] <ogra_> *fnop*
[14:59] <ppisati> o/
[15:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 15:00:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:00] <NCommander> Bah, 3 seconds late :-(
[15:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111117
[15:00] <NCommander> so who's here?
[15:01]  * janimo waves
[15:01]  * mrjazzcat is here
[15:01]  * ogra_ pretends to
[15:02]  * ahs3 may or may not be here
[15:02] <ogra_> cooloney, !
[15:02] <ogra_> good to see you
[15:02]  * rsalveti waves
[15:02] <cooloney> ogra_: thx, man.
[15:02]  * davidm waves
[15:02]  * cooloney waves 
[15:02] <NCommander> morning davidm cooloney rsalveti mrjazzcat janimo and ahs3
[15:03]  * GrueMaster is propped up in a corner with a large mug of coffee.
[15:03]  * cmagina waves
[15:03]  * NCommander is wondering if he'll ever see the sun again
[15:03] <NCommander> [topic] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
[15:03] <NCommander> so I grouped all the specs into two topic specs; one for ARM server, and a general one
[15:03] <NCommander> But only one is showing up, anyone know who needs to be prodded?
[15:04] <janimo> I have no WIs there apparently
[15:04] <davidm> NCommander, talk with skate
[15:04] <skaet> NCommander,  they need the blueprints accurate with WI's before they show up.
[15:04] <janimo> but both infinity and Adam Conrad do
[15:04] <NCommander> skaet: they're there :-/
[15:04] <skaet> NCommander - all they syntax correct?
[15:04] <ogra_> NCommander, action me with it
[15:04]  * davidm thinks his fingers are still not working correctly
[15:04] <janimo> I do not exclude the pssibility of getting the syntax of the WI entries wrong again
[15:05] <ogra_> i'll take care of it with pitti on monday if all specs are 100% there
[15:05] <NCommander> [action] ogra to smack status.u.c with skaet
[15:05] <meetingology> ACTION: ogra to smack status.u.c with skaet
[15:05] <ogra_> *everyone* spec deadline is tomorrow !!!!
[15:05] <ogra_> make sure to have all your WIs in
[15:05] <ogra_> and to have david approve them !!!
[15:06] <NCommander> if anyone needs help drafting specs, poke me
[15:07] <davidm> Anyone needs a spec approved poke me today in the next 4 hours
[15:07] <ogra_> even if unfinished ?
[15:08] <ogra_> well i have all my WIs but not the text complete yet
[15:09] <NCommander> I find the LP depednency tree really becomes useless after a LOT ofspecsareadded
[15:09] <NCommander> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-arm-server
[15:09] <NCommander> (I can't turn up the zoom enough to even read the names)
[15:10] <janimo> NCommander, stop reading it on your cellphone :P
[15:10] <ogra_> heh
[15:10] <NCommander> janimo: I can't even read it on my external monitor
[15:11] <NCommander> anyway, anything else on specs/status?
[15:11] <ogra_> get a projector !
[15:11]  * NCommander should add a spec 'if-you-can-read-this-you-dont-need-glasses'
[15:12] <ogra_> move ?
[15:12] <janimo> mv
[15:12] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
[15:12] <NCommander> Nothing to report
[15:13] <NCommander> well, we did manage to build server images
[15:13] <ogra_> last cycle you mean
[15:13] <ogra_> :)
[15:13] <NCommander> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily-preinstalled/current/
[15:13] <ahs3> have they built recently?
[15:13] <NCommander> No,this cycle
[15:13] <ogra_> heh
[15:13] <ogra_> well, indeed, why shouldnt they build
[15:14] <ogra_> how about alternate, didnt we want to do some testing with that =
[15:14] <ogra_> ?
[15:14] <ogra_> or did we decide that netinst suffices ?
[15:14] <GrueMaster> We?  As it "Build more stuff for GrueMaster to test"?  Ok
[15:14] <NCommander> I know janimo wanted some live images, but I don't think we've tried to build alternates
[15:14] <GrueMaster> s/it/in
[15:14]  * NCommander thinks we need to clone GrueMaster 
[15:15] <ogra_> NCommander, only for servre indeed ... no deskto alternates :)
[15:15] <janimo> NCommander, btw I got a live img from ogra yesterday, needs fixing but a good first step
[15:15] <ogra_> but we dont need to
[15:15] <GrueMaster> Bad idea.  I refuse to share my coffee mug.
[15:15] <ogra_> janimo, i'll bring that up in the image topic
[15:15] <NCommander> GrueMaster: we can clone the mug too. We have the technology
[15:15] <ogra_> GrueMaster, two straws, come on
[15:16] <ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I did more testing on the live image.  Having a hard time getting it to be recognized on one large vfat partition by the boot firmware.
[15:16] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
[15:16] <ppisati> nothing new to report except for the usual SRU kernels
[15:17] <ppisati> i'm preparing the first P omap4 kernle
[15:17] <ppisati> *kernel
[15:17] <cooloney> oh, i am working on an internal ARM project. shall i talk here?
[15:17] <GrueMaster> Excellent.
[15:17] <ppisati> still the same code as in O/omap4 but we a big config review/change
[15:17] <cooloney> ppisati: cool
[15:17] <ppisati> omap4 should be much close to master now
[15:17] <janimo> new ac100 kernel uploaded to precise,  SRU with speaker fix uploaded to oneiric
[15:17] <ppisati> *closer
[15:18] <janimo> both 2.6.38 based still
[15:18] <GrueMaster> ppisati: I also need to ping you later this morning about kernel SRU security failures I am seeing.
[15:18] <ppisati> janimo: noone is working on 3.x kernels?
[15:18] <ppisati> GrueMaster: impossible! our kernels are perfect! :)
[15:18] <janimo> ppisati, upstream does, but does not consider it stable enough yet
[15:18] <janimo> we'll get there for 12.04 though
[15:18] <ppisati> janimo: i see
[15:19] <ogra_> janimo, heh, high hopes
[15:19] <janimo> upstream is based on chromeos tree which is 3.0 only
[15:19] <janimo> not sure if we can make 3.2 this cycle, ut at least 3.0
[15:19]  * ppisati would like to work on that (since i finally got the cable and the stuff to hack a serial console in(
[15:19] <janimo> ppisati, #ac100 on freenode :)
[15:19] <NCommander> ppisati: serial console on the ac100?
[15:19] <ogra_> guys dont forget ac100 is a spare time project this cycle
[15:20] <janimo> right
[15:20] <ppisati> janimo: i know, but i've to finish some other stuff first... unfortunately... :(
[15:20] <ogra_> we cant put much work time in
[15:20] <ppisati> NCommander: yep
[15:20] <ppisati> NCommander: https://picasaweb.google.com/107597647635512051759/AC100SerialPortModification?gsessionid=ot7C1HbZg5CPWzwsGXXpZw#
[15:21] <ppisati> but didn't solder it yet (and my gfriend will be here this weekend too... so no spare time...)
[15:21] <NCommander> I never realized how tiny the ac100 main board is
[15:21] <NCommander> anyway, moving on
[15:21] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:21] <ogra_> ppisati, if you fry your board or something, ping me, i got a free ac100 with broken kbd here
[15:21] <NCommander> FTBFS list is shockingly happy for week 3(?) of archive open
[15:21] <ogra_> thats good for parts :)
[15:21]  * ppisati knocks wood...
[15:21] <janimo> tended to a few ftbfs packages
[15:21] <janimo> about 4 of them in main
[15:22] <ogra_> what about chromium ... did anyone take a look at that ?
[15:22] <janimo> not me, only firefox
[15:22] <ogra_> i know there are linaro people looking into it too and micahg is desparate to get help
[15:22] <ogra_> but there seems to be no conversation between the two
[15:22] <ogra_> we should help to get that going
[15:22] <janimo> maybe he should hang out on #linaro?
[15:23] <janimo> chromium is a pita because its build system is very unlike others and needs quite a learning curve
[15:23] <ogra_> probably
[15:23] <ogra_> yeah, agreed
[15:24] <NCommander> anything else?
[15:24] <ogra_> mv
[15:24] <infinity> I haven't tested on armel yet, but perl seems sad on armhf/smp.
[15:24] <ogra_> infinity, we have an hf topic now
[15:25] <ogra_> keep that for it :)
[15:25] <infinity> Yes, but this isn't hf-specific, I'm sure. :P
[15:25] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
[15:25] <infinity> But okay.
[15:25] <ogra_> heh
[15:25] <ogra_> so where do we stand ?
[15:26] <infinity> Perl's (still) grinding through its testsuite on my mx53, but seems happier than the panda that's been stalled on one test for ~20 hours.
[15:26] <ogra_> and once thats done we will have autobiuilds magically ?
[15:27] <infinity> Python rdeps still need to shake out, and I have a couple of things to rebuild in Essential to move their linker ref, and then the chroot can go to the librariar.
[15:27] <infinity> librarian too.
[15:27] <ogra_> sounds like we're nearly there \o/
[15:28] <infinity> I'd told people "Tuesday" before, but it seems I underestimated how slow my machines are (or, how nasty glib2.0 and perl are on slow hardware anyway)
[15:28] <ogra_> cant you abuse some buildds in the DC ?
[15:28] <GrueMaster> infinity: You mentioned perl may have issues on armel.  Give me a testcase and I can start it spinning here.
[15:28] <infinity> ogra_: I can't parallelise single builds terribly well.
[15:28] <ogra_> on hf/smp
[15:28] <ogra_> infinity, bah, learn it :P
[15:29] <ogra_> yeah, understood :)
[15:29] <infinity> ogra_: hf/smp is confirmed, I'm betting sf/smp will have the same problem.
[15:29] <ogra_> ah
[15:29]  * ogra_ didnt catch that
[15:29] <infinity> GrueMaster: debootstrap --variant=buildd precise, build perl 5.14.2 on a panda.  See if testsuite hangs indefinitely on dist/Thread-Semaphore/t/01_basic
[15:30] <GrueMaster> Will add it to jenkins for logging.
[15:31] <rsalveti> janimo: riku is trying to fix the ftbfs at chromium, to be able to cross build it
[15:31] <ogra_> rsalveti, yeah, thats what i meant
[15:31] <janimo> rsajdok, that is great
[15:31] <janimo> rsalveti, :)
[15:31] <ogra_> rsalveti, do you knwo if he already talked to micah?
[15:32] <ogra_> (i asked him to=
[15:32] <rsalveti> ogra_: not sure yet, need to ping him
[15:32] <ogra_> (if i cant tab rikus nick i'm always lost)
[15:33] <ogra_> (else i would have mentioned him above :) )
[15:33] <rsalveti> ogra_: suihkulokki :-)
[15:33] <infinity> Haha.
[15:33] <rsalveti> trivial
[15:33] <ogra_> yeah, indeed, i'm such a whiner :P
[15:33] <ogra_> :)
[15:34] <infinity> We could all name ourselves after beagle buildds.
[15:34] <infinity> Or babbage, rather.
[15:34] <ogra_> lol
[15:34] <ogra_> anoncaeaeaeae
[15:34] <cooloney> i prefer to panda then, heh
[15:35]  * GrueMaster becomes gruecaeaeaeaeae
[15:35] <ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
[15:35] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:35] <ogra_> preinstalled look fine
[15:35] <ogra_> live not so much :(
[15:36] <ogra_> i managed to build one manually yesterday but capser is unhappy
[15:36] <ogra_> janimo is still researching ... we found some missing kernel options though
[15:36] <ogra_> or rather differences in squashfs options ... but that doesnt necessarily mean thay cause the issue
[15:37] <GrueMaster> I took the live image and mangled it into one large vfat partition, but the panda wasn't happy (refused to find MLO).  Will retry later today.
[15:37] <ogra_> so some more research is needed
[15:37] <ppisati> i can hand you a new test kernel in a couple of hours
[15:37] <ogra_> GrueMaster, the ext4 should actually be fine
[15:37] <NCommander> probably sometime bit rotted badly since lucid
[15:37] <ogra_> casper has code for handling that, we checked
[15:37] <GrueMaster> Actually, both partitions are vfat.
[15:38] <ogra_> NCommander, well, we are missing compression support for squashfs in the kernel
[15:38] <ogra_> so that should be the first thing we eleminate
[15:38] <janimo> ppisati, even if the kernel is not the issue we should still have omep4 kernel aligned with ubuntu sauce
[15:38] <janimo> if that is not already I case of course
[15:39] <ppisati> agreed
[15:39] <janimo> that's a WI from UDS anyway so no extra work :)
[15:39] <GrueMaster> Yes.  Alignment would be good.  Kernel SRU tests currently fail because of being out of alignment.
[15:40] <ppisati> GrueMaster: i can beleive it
[15:40] <ppisati> omap4 and master were hundreds of options away
[15:40] <ogra_> ugh
[15:40]  * NCommander smacks head on desk
[15:41] <ppisati> since the inception of omap4 we always had a config that was closer to vanilla than to ubuntu
[15:41] <GrueMaster> Actually, it dates back earlier than that.  I have found discrepancies on Dove and babbage before.
[15:42] <ogra_> i remember at least two UDSes where lool and i approached the kernel team about that
[15:42] <ogra_> happy it finally happens :)
[15:43] <ppisati> you didn't bring enough booze with out then :)
[15:43] <ogra_> lol
[15:43] <ppisati> s/out/you/
[15:43] <ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
[15:44] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:44] <ogra_> wow
[15:44] <ogra_> twice as many images this time :P
[15:44] <ogra_> NCommander, mv ?
[15:44] <ogra_> :P
[15:44]  * NCommander beats ogra_ 
[15:44] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
[15:45] <GrueMaster> Hey, that's me.
[15:45] <infinity> Sure is!
[15:45] <ogra_> smells like
[15:45] <GrueMaster> Steady work on getting kernel-SRU test automation running in Jenkins.
[15:46] <janimo> GrueMaster, is there a public url for this jenkins instance?
[15:46] <GrueMaster> So far, reimaging of either Oneiric or Precise works very well.  Still some tweaks to make, but the process takes ~15-20 minutes.
[15:46] <GrueMaster> I will push jenkins results to jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com in the near future.
[15:47] <GrueMaster> I have also been working with the security team to get the qa-regression-testsuite running properly on arm and make it easier to automate.
[15:48] <lool> GrueMaster: the OMAP ROM will insist that your partition type matches your FS type; that is, if it's FAT32, you need partition type 0xc; I don't remember offhand the FAT16 type, but you get the idea
[15:48] <lool> you also want to make sure you have the bootable flag set on your FAT partition
[15:48] <GrueMaster> Still need to figure out a way to auto-install Maverick and Natty on omap4 for SRU testing, but a few ideas are being explored.
[15:49] <GrueMaster> lool: That may be it.  I didn't spend much time on it.  Will check after meetings.  thks.
[15:49] <GrueMaster> One of many tasks for today.
[15:49] <NCommander> anything else?
[15:49] <ogra_> mv :)
[15:49] <GrueMaster> Automating netinstall is the easiest.  Next will be to automate the server preinstalled images.
[15:50] <NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
[15:50]  * rsalveti waves
[15:50] <rsalveti> the milestone we're closing this week: https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/11.11
[15:50] <rsalveti> a few important things we did
[15:50] <rsalveti> u-boot-linaro spl usb booting for panda is finally done by jcrigby
[15:51] <rsalveti> GrueMaster this will work the same way as omap4boot
[15:51] <rsalveti> but using the official u-boot for it
[15:51] <GrueMaster> Excellent.
[15:51] <rsalveti> proper instructions and etc will be released next week, once we finish the 11.11 release
[15:51] <NCommander> rsalveti: done?
[15:51] <rsalveti> riku fixed a bunch of packages for multi-arch enablement, but still needs to send the changes to ubuntu
[15:52] <rsalveti> he was finally able to cross build firefox with multi-arch
[15:52] <ogra_> smagoun will be happy to hear that
[15:52] <rsalveti> he's now looking into chromium to see if we'll be able to also cross build it
[15:52] <rsalveti> next month we're planning to work pushing most of the changes, as for now it was more a experiment
[15:52] <infinity> Being able to built it at all would be a start. ;)
[15:53] <infinity> s/built/build/
[15:53] <rsalveti> yup
[15:53] <ogra_> ++
[15:53] <rsalveti> other than that we're also enabling the precise images now
[15:53] <rsalveti> and hope to have them also enabled at lava soon
[15:53] <ogra_> intrestingly there are armel debs at google somewheer
[15:53] <ogra_> of v14 or even 15
[15:53] <janimo> rsalveti, is there a list of MA enabled packages being worked on?
[15:53] <infinity> Yeah, jbailey builds chrome for arm.
[15:53] <rsalveti> and something I'd like to talk with you guys later is how to use lava to help testing the ubuntu images
[15:53] <infinity> Or chromium.  Or both.  I always forget.
[15:53] <ogra_> ah
[15:54] <infinity> rsalveti: You know Jeff?  Could be worth poking him.
[15:54] <janimo> well those may be native builds no?
[15:54] <rsalveti> janimo: sure, 1 sec
[15:54] <GrueMaster> rsalveti: It would be nice if your teams could figure out a way to get u-boot into automated testing.
[15:54] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: that's in progress
[15:54] <infinity> janimo: I'm sure they're native, but we can't build native right now either. :P
[15:54] <rsalveti> a lot of discussions with plars about it
[15:54] <rsalveti> janimo: https://launchpad.net/~linaro-maintainers/+archive/staging-overlay
[15:54] <janimo> infinity, well we sometimes can :)
[15:54] <rsalveti> janimo: mostly the ones changed by riku
[15:55] <rsalveti> janimo: also a few others at our overlay ppa
[15:55] <janimo> rsalveti, these imply upstream pushing I suppose
[15:55] <rsalveti> janimo: yup, work for our next cycle
[15:55] <cooloney> rsalveti: is there any final release from linaro based on 3.1 kernel? i think every month you guys will release once
[15:55] <janimo> Libo would be a great candidate
[15:55] <cooloney> rsalveti: or will move to 3.2 sometime
[15:56] <rsalveti> cooloney: yes, linux-linaro 3.1 for 11.11 was already released
[15:56] <ogra_> cooloney, there are no final releases from linaro :P
[15:56] <rsalveti> for now we're still on 3.1
[15:56] <ogra_> its all rolling
[15:56] <rsalveti> but we should be using tip soon
[15:56] <cooloney> got it, thanks
[15:56]  * cooloney thinks 11.11 is good name for release
[15:56] <rsalveti> and marcin also pushed a few fixes for the cross toolchain packages
[15:56] <rsalveti> that's all from my side
[15:57] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[15:58]  * cooloney asks what's AOB for?
[15:58] <infinity> All Other Business?
[15:58] <infinity> Or Any.
[15:58] <ogra_> any other bubblingupstuff
[15:58] <davidm> yep
[15:58] <plars> GrueMaster: we're looking at building some devices that would make it easier for us to do that
[15:59] <infinity> But a bit of a joke with 2 minutes to go. ;)
[15:59] <cooloney> infinity: got it.
[15:59] <GrueMaster> plars: cool.
[15:59] <plars> GrueMaster: but I thought you already had this solved for your purposes with usbboot on panda?
[16:00] <GrueMaster> plars: I was mainly thinking of beaglexm.  Still have network issues there.
[16:00] <NCommander> we're overtime, so if there's anything urgent, please say it now quickly, else I'll close the meeting
[16:00] <GrueMaster> And I only have 1 system.
[16:00] <ogra_> NCommander, close
[16:00] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[16:00] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 16:00:42 2011 UTC.
[16:00] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-15.00.moin.txt
[16:00] <NCommander> cya
[16:40] <amithkk> [topic] wait, unvoice'd users can do this?
[16:51] <amithkk> #lol
[16:51] <amithkk> ?
[16:57] <beuno> o/
[16:58] <pleia2> o/
[16:59] <czajkowski> o/
[17:00] <dholbach> o/
[17:00] <dholbach> o//
[17:00] <jono> hey all
[17:00] <cjohnston> hi
[17:01] <Gwaihir> hello!
[17:02] <akgraner> o/
[17:02] <jono> hey sabdfl
[17:04] <beuno> ok, lets get this party started
[17:04] <beuno> #startmeeting
[17:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 17:04:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is beuno. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[17:04] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:04] <beuno> there's no proposed topics on the wiki
[17:04] <YokoZar> I have something to report
[17:05] <dholbach> and I wanted to share a quick reminder
[17:05] <czajkowski> cool
[17:05] <beuno> YokoZar, go for it
[17:06] <YokoZar> Right, at UDS I was tasked with investigating the voting system
[17:06] <YokoZar> Briefly, 1) We need to pick an actual algorithm to use, and 2) We need a tie-breaking procedure
[17:07] <sabdfl> i thought (1) was condorcet
[17:07] <sabdfl> and (2) was one of the CIVS options
[17:07] <YokoZar> For 1), the Shulze method (first in the list on CIVS) is the clear answer: it's what Debian and Wikimedia use, amid others, and it's a sound algorithm.  You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_Method
[17:07] <YokoZar> sabdfl: there are multiple condorcet methods (indeed CIVS lists 4 of them)
[17:07] <sabdfl> ah, right, tiebreaking when even Condorcet-Shultze ties
[17:08] <YokoZar> Right, which is indeed what happened between 2nd and 3rd place in the IRCC election
[17:09] <YokoZar> As far as tie-breaking is concerned, that's actually not handled by CIVS.
[17:09] <beuno> #topic voting algorithm for board elections and tie-breaking procedure
[17:09] <dholbach> Do we know how other projects deal with cases like this?
[17:10] <czajkowski> YokoZar: so are you suggesting/recommending that going forth we use the Shulze method
[17:10] <YokoZar> dholbach: I'm not sure what Debian's tie-breaking procedures are, if they even have them.  It really is a freak occurance
[17:10] <YokoZar> czajkowski: Yes, I'm saying we make it official somewhere
[17:10] <czajkowski> YokoZar: ok makes sense to be honest as I'
[17:10] <czajkowski> m sure it gets asked the whole time
[17:10] <dholbach> I'd suggest to document it on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
[17:10] <dholbach> I have no objections about using it
[17:10] <beuno> ey use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloneproof_Schwartz_Sequential_Dropping
[17:10] <YokoZar> beuno: it's the same
[17:11] <beuno> (according to http://www.debian.org/vote/)
[17:11] <YokoZar> beuno: (two names for same method)
[17:11] <YokoZar> In fact that wikipedia page is a redirect ;)
[17:11] <sabdfl> very simply, this is our discretion, and how we decide is up to us
[17:11] <YokoZar> dholbach: I'll look into if Debian has a true tie resolution procedure
[17:11] <sabdfl> i prefer consensus, but if we vote, there is a casting vote so we never get stuck
[17:12] <YokoZar> sabdfl: Right, I was just going to suggest we resolve ties by just looking at your ballot and if you rank A > B and there is a tie between A and B, A now beats B
[17:12] <sabdfl> remember, the mandate stems from us; we poll to get mutual buy-in on delegation, but it is in fact delegation
[17:12] <sabdfl> who's ballot?
[17:13] <sabdfl> i don't need or want to be the direct decider on those; we should discuss them, see if we have general agreement, and if not then just vote
[17:13] <YokoZar> Ok so you would defer a true tie to the CC then
[17:14] <sabdfl> yes; it's our delegation, we've polled the relevant group in the community, they've said they're equally happy with two candidates we shortlisted, we can choose
[17:14] <dholbach> sabdfl's argument makes sense and it should be corner cases, I just think we should document it, so it's clear to everybody involved
[17:14] <sabdfl> agreed
[17:14] <YokoZar> That's fine by me.  Our other two options would be 1) Just using sabdfl's vote as a casting vote in the actual election, and 2) Doing something pseudorandom
[17:14] <czajkowski> aye as dholbach said documentaion would be the key here so everyone knows and is on the same page
[17:14] <sabdfl> note to ourselves, though, is that we should exercise real discretion in the shortlisting
[17:15] <sabdfl> i do with TB and CC, and we should do the same in the delegation
[17:15] <beuno> so we use Schwartz as an algorithm, and tie-breaks get discussed and decided upon by the CC, yes?
[17:15] <sabdfl> nobody should be on the shortlist that does not have our full support
[17:15] <sabdfl> otherwise we're not doing our job
[17:15] <sabdfl> beuno, +1
[17:15] <czajkowski> beuno: +1
[17:15] <YokoZar> beuno: Yes, +1.  Though I think we should be consistent in calling it Shulze (that seems to be what Wikipedia has settled on, as well as the Elections-Methods mailing list)
[17:16] <beuno> #action update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
[17:16] <meetingology> ACTION: update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
[17:16] <dholbach> +1, that works for me
[17:16] <czajkowski> YokoZar: thanks for looking into this
[17:16] <Gwaihir> +1 for me too, sounds fine
[17:16] <akgraner> +1 from me as well
[17:16] <beuno> ok, dholbach, you're up
[17:16] <dholbach> This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware of it.
[17:16] <dholbach>  Thanks :-)
[17:17] <dholbach> Ok, I just realised that we changed meeting dates, so I'll have to update the schedule.
[17:17] <dholbach> I'll take that as an action and post it to the ubuntu-council-teams list.
[17:17] <pleia2> thanks dholbach
[17:17] <czajkowski> cheers
[17:17] <akgraner> thanks dholbach
[17:17] <Gwaihir> great dholbach
[17:18] <beuno> #info This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC  meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware o
[17:18]  * beuno stares at meetingology 
[17:18] <dholbach> ...f it. Thanks :-)
[17:18] <sabdfl> dholbach, can we keep that schedule in the wiki, say, on CommunityCouncilAgenda?
[17:18] <dholbach> I guess that was TMI
[17:18] <dholbach> sabdfl, sure
[17:18] <sabdfl> groovy, thanks
[17:19] <Gwaihir> might also great to have it in the fridge calendar...
[17:19] <pleia2> that might be tricky since it's *during* the CC meeting
[17:19] <YokoZar> I suggest
[17:20] <dholbach> and it's a recurring event
[17:20] <czajkowski> i think on the agenda page should be fine
[17:20] <YokoZar> that We start the meeting with it
[17:20] <beuno> #action add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:20] <meetingology> ACTION: add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:20] <YokoZar> I mean as a matter of policy have other teams as guests first on the agenda so that they can leave when they done
[17:20] <pleia2> YokoZar: good idea
[17:20] <akgraner> YokoZar, +1
[17:20] <Gwaihir> YokoZar, +1
[17:21]  * YokoZar remembers an Ubuntu-California meeting that had some international 3AMers present who were made to wait through half an hour of nonsense
[17:21] <dholbach> yes, sounds good to me
[17:21] <pleia2> yeah, that wasn't good :(
[17:21] <czajkowski> :)
[17:21] <beuno> if memory serves, next up is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
[17:22] <pleia2> yep
[17:22] <pleia2> so I sent an email to the CC list giving us a heads up, but for the benefit of others, here's the related blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-designing-and-creating-ubuntu-experiences
[17:22] <beuno> #topic https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
[17:22] <pleia2> essentially the community council will be taking over most of jono's tasks here in guidance
[17:22] <pleia2> that DesignTeam wiki is slowly coming together, they wrote most of it this morning during their preliminary meeting :)
[17:22] <wendar> also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-ux-participation
[17:23] <pleia2> the team hasn't formally been announced, right now they're looking for some structure and guidance and after speaking with doctormo and wendar I offered that the CC would probably be in a good place to do this (since we're already committed to checking in with some other teams this cycle)
[17:23] <pleia2> thanks for coming, wendar :)
[17:23] <pleia2> anyone have any questions at this time?
[17:23] <jono> I agree
[17:23] <jono> I think the CC can offer some great guidance here
[17:24] <beuno> pleia2, what would be the channel of communication?
[17:25] <cjohnston> #ubuntu-design
[17:25] <cjohnston> currently
[17:25] <beuno> so the CC should hang out over there?
[17:25] <pleia2> for actual guidance I'd suggest some CC folks hang out in #ubuntu-design, and we can welcome them to email the CC list at any time (any team can do this of course, but this can be a focus for us)
[17:26] <pleia2> and maybe do a public check-in at one of our CC meetings per month, but this should all be discussed based on neds
[17:26] <pleia2> needs
[17:27] <dholbach> that sounds reasonable - do we have a point of contact there? or do we just "ping/email the team"?
[17:27] <pleia2> currently I'd say it's doctormo and wendar
[17:27] <jono> I think a public check in could be useful, make the team feel part of the CC meetings
[17:27] <mhall119> the team for now, we haven't selected contacts yet
[17:27]  * dholbach nods
[17:27] <sabdfl> hmm
[17:27] <pleia2> mhall119: ah, thanks :)
[17:28] <jono> I think it could be useful to appoint a member of the design team to help coordinate with this
[17:28] <jono> maybe Charline or someone
[17:28] <sabdfl> it feels weird to me that the ubuntu design team doesn't include johnlea, mika, oren, calum, christian, mpt...
[17:28] <sabdfl> this should all be one team
[17:28] <wendar> sabdfl: they just haven't joined yet
[17:28] <jono> sabdfl, absolutely
[17:28] <wendar> charline is a member already
[17:28] <wendar> and, yes, it is all one
[17:28] <sabdfl> wendar, they are the founding members, from where i stand ;-)
[17:29] <YokoZar> I like what I'm seeing so far
[17:29] <sabdfl> i don't mean to offend, and i think the energy around better engagement is excellent
[17:29] <sabdfl> but it's wrong to suggest that there was no engagement previously
[17:29] <wendar> sabdfl: I mean they haven't joined the launchpad team yet, which was created yesterday
[17:29] <sabdfl> and all is fixed because wendar and doctormo made a lp team ;-)
[17:30] <dholbach> I think it's more about creating more opportunities
[17:30] <wendar> would you like to hear more about the longer-term plans here?
[17:30] <sabdfl> i asked today that design.canonical.com be moved to design.ubuntu.com, and we create accounts there for folk doing great work, regardless of affiliation
[17:30] <mhall119> dholbach: that's correct
[17:30] <dholbach> nice
[17:30] <wendar> the CC feedback would be useful, but also don't want to take up too much of the meeting if this isn't the right time/place
[17:30] <sabdfl> wendar, i'd like to hear that those longer term plans were agreed with the cats i listed
[17:30] <wendar> sabdfl: yes
[17:31] <sabdfl> groovy, then we're ok
[17:31] <wendar> sabdfl: they're quite enthusiastic about participating
[17:31] <sabdfl> let's get them all assembled in the team, let's get everyone bloggaging, let's do great work as always
[17:31] <dholbach> :-)
[17:31] <sabdfl> i also hope we'll have some new names on the team soon, for whom IRC and mailing lists are the normal channel, rather than a new channel
[17:32] <sabdfl> sorry, new names on the canonical design team :-)
[17:32]  * YokoZar this reminds me of the separation between "Ubuntu Desktop Team" and "Canonical Desktop Team" from some time ago
[17:32] <wendar> pleia2: one thing we'd appreciate help with from the CC is in organizing
[17:32] <czajkowski> wendar: in what way can we help there?
[17:33] <wendar> particularly, perspectives on setting up our guidelines and culture
[17:34] <wendar> so, any comments people have on our drafts on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
[17:34] <wendar> would be welcome
[17:35] <czajkowski> wendar: i'll be home later and online and happy to talk you throuigh some stuff if that would help
[17:35] <czajkowski> or another time that is suitable
[17:35] <wendar> czajkowski: thanks!
[17:35] <pleia2> czajkowski: care to join us in #ubuntu-design?
[17:35] <czajkowski> already there
[17:35] <pleia2> oh good
[17:35] <pleia2> :)
[17:36] <czajkowski> wendar: i'll follow up after meeting with a time we can talk
[17:37] <beuno> ok, so "The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design"?
[17:37] <pleia2> +1
[17:37] <czajkowski> +1
[17:37] <akgraner> +1
[17:37] <Gwaihir> +1
[17:38] <sabdfl> +2 :-)
[17:38] <dholbach> +1 from me too
[17:38] <YokoZar> +1
[17:38] <beuno> #agreed The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
[17:38] <beuno> #action The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
[17:38] <meetingology> ACTION: The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
[17:38] <beuno> that's it for the known topics
[17:38] <beuno> any unknown topics?  :)
[17:39] <akgraner> LC results
[17:39] <sabdfl> i think we're still discussing
[17:39] <akgraner> ok
[17:39] <akgraner> just 3 people expire from team on Saturday - so wanted to bring it up :-)
[17:39] <sabdfl> right. hmm.
[17:39] <dholbach> if everybody would have a look at the discussion again and follow up, that'd help
[17:42] <sabdfl> other topics?
[17:44] <akgraner> I don't have any more..
[17:45] <czajkowski> nope.
[17:45] <czajkowski> beuno: thanks for chairing
[17:45] <beuno> #endmeeting
[17:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 17:45:23 2011 UTC.
[17:45] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-17.04.moin.txt
[17:45] <beuno> thank you everyone!
[17:45] <dholbach> thanks :-)
[17:48] <dholbach> oh... who will do the meeting minutes and chair next time?
[17:52] <cjohnston> too late :-P
[17:59]  * dholbach will do the minutes/team-report
[18:00] <cjwatson> kees: are you chairing TB today?
[18:00] <cjwatson> I can't remember who we agreed on last week (it wasn't in the IRC logs)
[18:00] <sabdfl> thanks daniel, and akgraner will chair next CC
[18:00] <sabdfl> hello TB :-)
[18:00]  * pitti waves hello
[18:00]  * stgraber waves
[18:01] <cjwatson> back-to-back meetings - the TB will be moving as of next fortnight though :)
[18:02]  * cjwatson gets the minutes of the last meeting out in the very nick of time, 32 seconds before the meeting
[18:03] <pitti> FTR, I need to run out in about 35 mins
[18:04] <cjwatson> I probably do as well - parent-teacher meeting this evening at which point I'm in charge of the other child
[18:05] <cjwatson> can anyone chair?
[18:05] <broder> wait, is the meeting supposed to be now or in an hour?
[18:05] <pitti> so soren sent his excuses, haven't heard from kees and mdz
[18:05] <cjwatson> I thought it was now
[18:05] <pitti> broder: 1800 UTC, i. e. now
[18:06] <broder> bah, stupid time zones. ok
[18:06] <cjwatson> 15:36 <pitti> cjwatson, stgraber, mdz, kees, soren: TB is still at 1800 UTC today, i. e. an hour earlier now with winter time?
[18:06] <cjwatson> 15:38 <cjwatson> yes, I guess so
[18:06] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda says 18:00 UTC, so I took that as definitive place
[18:06] <stgraber> #startmeeting Technical Board Meeting
[18:06] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 18:06:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[18:06] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:06] <pitti> anyway, so next meeting will be in 11 days then, Monday evening?
[18:06] <stgraber> #topic New meeting time
[18:07] <stgraber> let's start with that then :)
[18:07] <stgraber> so based on the doodle poll, the new meeting time is now Monday at 21:00 UTC
[18:08] <cjwatson> it's not ideal for me, but we knew that; I can manage it
[18:08] <pitti> Monday 2100 only cuts into the first sleep hour, so that still WFM during winter time; I'd appreciate if we could move it back an hour during summer
[18:08] <pitti> perhaps we can just tie it to London time instead of UTC?
[18:08] <cjwatson> right, I proposed polling again at the next DST change
[18:08] <cjwatson> sometimes things shift round more than that so I think it's better to repoll
[18:08] <pitti> would make it easier to have a permanent definition which doesn't keep messing up personal schedules
[18:08] <cjwatson> if it's done by somebody vaguely efficient rather than me then it shouldn't take too long :)
[18:08] <pitti> ok
[18:08] <cjwatson> actually I'd prefer to have occasional shifting around to share the pain ...
[18:09] <pitti> heh, or that :)
[18:09] <stgraber> I also prefer polling again in 6 months, so we can maybe find a better spot or indeed share the pain a bit :)
[18:09] <pitti> so I guess that's settled
[18:09] <stgraber> I'll update the wiki, anything else that needs changing?
[18:10] <stgraber> #action stgraber to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda with the new meeting time
[18:10] <meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda with the new meeting time
[18:10] <cjwatson> wiki and maybe the Ubuntu engineering calendar
[18:11] <stgraber> how do we update the calendar?
[18:11] <cjwatson> if you don't have access, ask Michelle
[18:11] <stgraber> ok, I'll have a look
[18:11] <stgraber> #action stgraber to update the Ubuntu engineering calendar with the new meeting time
[18:11] <meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to update the Ubuntu engineering calendar with the new meeting time
[18:12] <stgraber> #topic Opening backports pocket pre-release
[18:12] <stgraber> so, back to backports
[18:12] <stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001122.html
[18:12] <broder> hello everyone
[18:13] <pitti> points 2 and 3 seem no different to me than for "normal" backports
[18:13] <pitti> and for point 4, yes, definitively source-only
[18:13] <cjwatson> I'd like to dig into upload privileges a little bit
[18:13] <pitti> for point 4 I think the requirements for early backport uploads should be like for regular ones, i. e. include a check-mir run perhaps?
[18:13] <cjwatson> as discussed at the tail end of last meeting
[18:13] <broder> i think we concluded last time that nobody was totally sure how the backports pocket worked currently, so we should probably talk about how we would *want* it to work, and adjust accordingly
[18:13] <cjwatson> right
[18:14] <cjwatson> originally, the TB said "only ubuntu-core-dev gets to do manual uploads to backports" (regardless of whether that's what's actually implemented in LP)
[18:14] <pitti> my main point for discussion is the first bullet point
[18:14] <broder> actually, i realized later that source-only copies aren't an option, because we can't have 2 different builds with the same version number in the archive
[18:14] <cjwatson> I would prefer to just say that any developer with upload privileges to the package in question can upload it to -backports, and that we'd generally expect -backporters to review that
[18:15] <cjwatson> that won't require adding another celebrity to LP or whatever, and it seems a reasonable policy
[18:15] <stgraber> with upload privileges in the source or the target release?
[18:15] <cjwatson> target I guess
[18:15] <cjwatson> that's the one you're changing after all
[18:15] <stgraber> right, and only core-devs could introduce a new package in -backports then?
[18:15] <broder> and for pre-release backports, there is no source release, at least within ubuntu
[18:15] <cjwatson> I agree that this means we might actually have to maintain the package sets for older releases
[18:16] <cjwatson> stgraber: ubuntu-dev, I think
[18:16] <cjwatson> if we just went with the natural LP policy
[18:16] <cjwatson> sorry, n
[18:16] <cjwatson> ubuntu-core-dev or motu (you have to have component upload privileges)
[18:16] <stgraber> sounds good
[18:17] <pitti> as all of these uploads will land in unapproved anyway, I don't see a problem with ~ubuntu-dev being technically able to upload
[18:17] <micahg> should we allow new sources after feature freeze though?  IMHO, those could wait until the following release
[18:17] <pitti> (as the usual script will not work, there's nothing to backport from)
[18:17] <broder> micahg: i think allowing new sources is a huge benefit of this plan
[18:18] <pitti> ^ agree
[18:18] <cjwatson> I would like to allow ~ubuntu-backporters to be able to do queue management on the backports pocket
[18:18] <broder> because previously there was an extended period where there was no way to get new sources into the archive, which is difficult for upstreams that are new to our cycle
[18:18] <cjwatson> this will, I think, require some work in LP, but it seems eminently worthwhile
[18:18] <cjwatson> that way we wouldn't impose much extra archive admin load
[18:18] <pitti> and it would also get rid of the AA steps for the regular backports, makign the process smoother
[18:19] <pitti> but it's not a blocker for this policy, anyway
[18:19] <micahg> pitti: well, except for backporthelper
[18:19] <pitti> micahg: do we need that?
[18:19] <micahg> for no change backports?
[18:19] <pitti> I thought these would be pretty much normal uploads, just with a differetn target (devrelease-backports)
[18:19] <cjwatson> re pocket copies: we could simply copy source in universe and reupload things in main.  that would probably be good enough.
[18:20] <pitti> cjwatson: you mean source+binaries in universe?
[18:20] <cjwatson> ys
[18:20] <cjwatson> *yes
[18:20] <pitti> I'd prefer rebuilding it (new toolchain, FTBFS check, etc.)
[18:20] <broder> allowing backporters to do queue management sounds spiffy. we already have that open request to LP to allow for separate queue privileges by packetset, right? i wonder if it's worth rolling this request into that
[18:20] <pitti> or new library ABIs
[18:21] <broder> cjwatson: is there a specific reason that AA need to do backports with backport-helper/mass-syncs instead of us doing them with backportpackage? i guess we bypass the new queues that way?
[18:22] <cjwatson> I think it just meant we didn't have to do more checking
[18:22] <cjwatson> pitti: you're probably right
[18:22]  * micahg thought it was the same reason for using sync-helper and why the LP API is prefered for sync's, no round trip through dev machines
[18:23] <cjwatson> once -backporters starts handling the queue admin, I wouldn't mind revisiting that
[18:23] <cjwatson> I'd prefer we do that first though
[18:23] <broder> ok
[18:23] <cjwatson> that way -archive doesn't have to check that it's really the same package with changelog tweak
[18:24] <broder> ah, right, because the queue doesn't actually give you the diff you care about. makes sense
[18:24] <cjwatson> last time I raised a concern about skew in developer attention, but on reflection, I think it's mostly different developers involved
[18:24] <cjwatson> and having a mechanism for people to get things into -backports early ought to take some pressure off the release team and allow us to have a higher-quality release in general
[18:25] <cjwatson> as long as you folks are sensible about saying "no, this really ought to go into the release 'cos it's broken as it is"
[18:25] <cjwatson> which AFAICS you're already doing with SRUs
[18:25] <broder> yeah, "this should be an SRU" is one of our stock answers
[18:25] <broder> i think extending that to "this should be a freeze exception" should be pretty natural
[18:27] <pitti> with these, do you actually expect a huge influx of packages which are backported pre-release?
[18:27] <pitti> my gut feeling is that we are talking about a magnitude of ten here
[18:28] <broder> yeah, i don't think i expect it to be massive
[18:28] <broder> or at least not initialy
[18:30] <pitti> as for your first point, can we have a report which shows us when backports get obsoleted by release uploads?
[18:30] <pitti> and/or an email notification?
[18:30] <pitti> we have that in the pending-sru.html script already, should be simple to port
[18:30] <micahg> well, if it
[18:30] <pitti> it shows us when an SRU gets superseded by a -security upload
[18:30] <pitti> in that case we need a merge or a new backport
[18:31] <broder> yeah, and i've got a similar report for backports whose source was superseded by a security/SRU update
[18:31] <micahg> ugh, if it's going into -proposed, we wouldn't want to remove that from -backports, right, since it'll be post release?
[18:31] <pitti> something similar would also be useful for the existing backports
[18:31] <broder> i can definitely do that
[18:31] <pitti> e. g. you backport final version, then it gets a security update
[18:31] <pitti> this should be re-backported, too
[18:31] <micahg> oh, that's what you mean...
[18:31] <broder> right - http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~broder/rebackporter/rebackports.json is the report i'm currently generating
[18:32] <pitti> micahg: no, I mean if you upload to -backports at FF time, and the same package gets FFEd later on with a higher version
[18:32] <micahg> ah, right, makes sense to remove, but would we want to do that for -proposed as well or just the release pocket?
[18:32] <pitti> if that could alert the backporter team, or it auto-files bugs, or whatever, I'd be entirely happy with the proposal
[18:32] <pitti> micahg: I think for -updates/-security uploads we generally want to update the backport as well
[18:33] <pitti> for release, it might be a merge
[18:33] <broder> i'm ok with having it auto-file bugs
[18:33] <pitti> as we have both a newer version and a (potentially totally unrelated) fix to the release package
[18:35] <micahg> +1 on auto-file
[18:35] <cjwatson> auto-file with a tag, yes
[18:35] <pitti> sorry, I need to run
[18:35] <pitti> with the "superseded package" being flagged, and doing new uploads for main uploads into +1, I'm happy
[18:35] <broder> thanks for your input, pitti
[18:38] <stgraber> is there anything else we want to discuss on that topic? we unfortunately don't have quorum today, so I'd recommend to document the plan based on the dicussion we just had and vote on the final proposal at the next TB meeting
[18:38] <cjwatson> right, we're now inquorate; I think I'm happy with this but it's significant enough that I think we should document what we have and not try to do it on a bare quorum anyway
[18:39] <cjwatson> and there were enough changes suggested here that I think they deserve writing up
[18:39] <broder> ok, so it sounds like (a) bot to monitor and file bugs about skew between -release and -backports, (b) modify -backports to require source-change uploads only from people with permission to upload to that package in other pockets, (c) do rebuilds of either everything or everything from main that gets copied forward to the +1, (d) possibly follow up with lp on allowing queue management granularity
[18:39] <broder> by pocket?
[18:39] <stgraber> yeah, even with pitti's +1, we're only at 3/6 members, so better have it well documented, letting the other TB members look at the final proposal and then vote on it in two weeks
[18:39] <broder> anything i missed?
[18:40] <cjwatson> that's everything I mentioned at least
[18:41] <stgraber> looks good
[18:42] <broder> ok. i can volunteer to write that up and update the list, then
[18:42] <stgraber> broder: can you update the plan to include these few points and send an updated version to the ML (or a link to a wiki page?)?
[18:42] <stgraber> sounds like a yes :)
[18:42] <broder> :)
[18:43] <broder> i'm also going to start working on a list of code that needs to be modified to support this
[18:43] <stgraber> #action broder to update the plan for pre-release backports and send update to the TB mailing-list
[18:43] <meetingology> ACTION: broder to update the plan for pre-release backports and send update to the TB mailing-list
[18:44] <broder> cool. thanks for the feedback, everyone
[18:44] <stgraber> broder: thanks!
[18:44] <stgraber> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
[18:45] <stgraber> didn't find any new topic on there after a quick look. Only a discussion on upstart/lxc and a comment from Kate on bug 174375
[18:45] <stgraber> #topic AOB
[18:45] <stgraber> anything else?
[18:45] <cjwatson> nothing from me
[18:45] <cjwatson> and about to be called away, so :)
[18:45] <stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
[18:46] <stgraber> I say we stick with kees as he's the next one in alphabetical order, any objection? :)
[18:46] <cjwatson> wfm :)
[18:46] <stgraber> perfect :)
[18:46] <stgraber> #endmeeting
[18:46] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 18:46:59 2011 UTC.
[18:46] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-18.06.moin.txt
[18:47] <stgraber> thanks everyone
[18:48] <cjwatson> thanks for chairing
[18:51] <kees> argh, stupid DST
[18:53]  * inetpro so happy that we do not have DST in South Africa
[19:05] <stgraber> sent the minutes for the TB meeting, currently in the moderation queue
[19:07] <mdz> stgraber, hi
[19:07] <mdz> what happened, no meeting?
[19:08] <beuno> mdz, happened ^^^
[19:08] <beuno> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-17-18.06.moin.txt
[19:08] <mdz> hmm, the calendar says it was scheduled for 8 minutes ago :-/
[19:09] <micahg> mdz: UTC + DST = uh-oh
[19:09] <mdz> nobody pinged me, but I had another meeting anyway
[19:09] <mdz> micahg, shared calendaring = better than nothing :-)
[19:10] <micahg> heh, maybe kees can help with Google Calendar understanding UTC
[19:15] <mdz> micahg, or someone can remember to update the calendar the 4x per year that this happens ;-)
[19:15] <mdz> or fall back on email
[19:15] <micahg> heh, that too
[19:15] <mdz> anyway, rant over
[19:15] <mdz> sorry I couldn't be at the meeting
[19:17] <pleia2> if you set the time zone to Reykjavik, Iceland in google calendar you never have to change it (it's UTC and no DST)
[19:17] <Myrtti> handy
[19:18] <micahg> pleia2: is that what the fridge is set to?
[19:18] <stgraber> mdz: 15:36 < pitti> cjwatson, stgraber, mdz, kees, soren: TB is still at 1800 UTC today, i. e. an hour earlier now with winter time?
[19:18] <stgraber> anyway, we changed time for our next meeting, hopefully the calendar will be updated by then
[19:18] <mdz> stgraber, I was still in bed at that time :-)
[19:19] <mdz> and had already been scheduled into other meetings based on what was on my calendar for the past week
[19:19] <mdz> for meetings during the work day, it's hard for me to attend unless the time is fixed in advance on the calendar
[19:20] <pleia2> micahg: there isn't a default when you add stuff to fridge calendar (google calendar tries to help you by converting to your time zone) and when you embed a calendar in a website like on fridge it has more timezone options (it's set for GMT)
[20:15] <AlanBell> beuno: czajkowski what was the problem with the #info command earlier? czajkowski said it overflowed or something??
[20:17] <czajkowski> AlanBell: it didnt catch all the chars that were being copied in for an #info command
[20:17] <czajkowski> it was missing the last 3 letters
[20:17] <AlanBell> isn't that just an IRC/Freenode limit?
[20:18] <AlanBell> long text: This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC  meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team ...
[20:18] <AlanBell> ... is aware of it
[20:19] <AlanBell> that was one line in irssi
[20:19] <beuno> right
[20:19] <beuno> it should of still captured tha amount that got through, no?
[20:21]  * AlanBell goes to see what it does with #info anyway
[20:22] <AlanBell> hmm, very little by the looks of things
[20:22] <AlanBell> it captures it and puts it in a dictionary, but the moin output writer does not appear to use it
[20:23] <AlanBell> and it doesn't echo it back to you (which I would argue is correct, I don't like echoey bots)
[20:23] <beuno> right
[20:23] <beuno> I thought it hadn't worked because it didn't echo anything back
[20:24] <AlanBell> no, it worked, but the command doesn't do anything
[20:24] <AlanBell> nothing to do with line length
[20:24] <AlanBell> I am going to get it to do more echoing back privately to acknowledge it got things
[20:26] <AlanBell> bug 891794