[09:09] hi will :) [12:29] hi! :) [14:10] Aloha willcooke and the rest [14:11] hi [14:12] How's it going here? [14:17] pretty quiet it seems right now [14:18] Yeah, but I didn't hear about this channel untill today [14:28] Hello guys, MrChrisDruif [14:28] Wellark, hi [14:28] sorry I was OTP [14:28] On The Potty? [14:28] XD [14:28] phone! [14:28] Can't be, Ubuntu still got to release one of those ;-) [14:29] When I typed it, I thought I should be phone, but still...for the lulz I typed potty [14:31] Anyhow, what did you guys think of Thomas his mail? [14:31] And the others ofx [14:31] ofc* [16:10] Hi again all, back from meetings.... [16:10] o/ hello room [16:10] Hi tgm4883 [16:10] Hi willcooke [16:10] meetings, bleh :( [16:11] hehe [16:11] So, you know what... I'm slightly surprised at how most people are of the opinion that 3d is not very important. I thought I was in the minority with my opinion of 3d being "Meh" [16:12] I think it has to do with needing new hardware, needing to buy glasses for everyone, and then even after spending all that money all you get is "hey, those mountains look a little bit farther than they used to" [16:12] tgm4883, thank you for your email by the way. Very interesting. I'd like to take a bit of time to properly digest it and write a decent reply... [16:13] It's probably important to support playback at some point [16:13] willcooke, yea sorry about the long wall of text, we never did get a chance to meet up again at UDS [16:13] even if I don't personally care about it most times [16:13] dmj726, Where are we with capable graphics cards? Do they exist? [16:13] 3d graphics cards exist [16:13] tgm4883, UDS was HARD work. So many people! [16:13] nvidia has some, I would assume AMD does as well [16:14] we should use the right terminology here: We're talking about *stereoscopy* [16:14] * willcooke isn't down with the lingo [16:14] the one where you have to wear stupid glasses. [16:15] which is when you get a 3D effect by having each eye see a slightly different image [16:15] yeah, that one [16:15] What's the alternative? [16:15] Is it that thing that R2D2 can do with the projection? [16:15] There are a number of diferent ways to indicate depth, but that's the one we call 3D [16:16] I guess that's the accepted standard now [16:16] simply moving the camera side to side, having objects grow smaller in the distance are all cues the brain uses even in "2D" films [16:16] right, I'm with you [16:17] Yes, when I say 3D I'm talking stereoscopic [16:17] just saying there's more to 3D (think how game engines manage it) than stereoscopy, but stereoscopy is our subject here [16:18] it is [16:18] what would be required to support 3d? Just the ability to turn off the second picture? (by extension, support for a second stream of video) [16:19] Honestly I think 3D is further down the list [16:19] I /think/ some devices just display the two pictures side by side on the same frame and then the TV itself does the magic [16:22] tgm4883: are you Thomas Mashos? [16:23] Oh, belay that, just saw the bottom of your latest email [16:23] imnichol, yes [16:23] :) [16:23] rhpot1991, ! [16:23] rhpot1991 is on the Mythbuntu team as well [16:23] hi [16:24] imnichol, yea that was a bit of a longwinded email [16:25] I expect it to take a little while to get a reply or two [16:25] I was just wondering about your first email on the list: do you have a reason for not wanting Unity? [16:25] It seems like you think it's not ontrollable by remote? [16:25] Am I correct or did I miss something? [16:25] Note: I don't care one way or the other, I'm just curious. [16:25] I don't think it would fit well on a TV. By that I mean the desktop in general [16:26] You want a 10 foot UI for the TV, and I don't think Unity in it's currently form fits that [16:26] now you could take a 10 foot UI and theme it to look similar to Unity [16:26] Note: I actually like Unity and use it on my desktop and netbook [16:26] Hahah [16:26] Aloha tgm4883 [16:26] Hi MrChrisDruif [16:27] I've read your message in the list [16:27] Ok, I think I can get what you're saying. [16:27] And I agree on a lot of the points [16:27] when you go TV, you need to scale everything up a bit [16:27] Indeed 10' interface [16:27] But I'm still a little unclear what you mean when you say that its current form doesn't fit [16:27] TV's are like texas, everything is larger [16:27] Like the icon bar in the upper right? [16:27] But it doesn't necessarily mean we'd have to use XBMC [16:28] But unlike texas, we aren't trying to execute people with our TVs [16:28] ;) [16:28] XD [16:28] Right, XBMC was an example. I suggest we use something that has already been developed and can be fitted for our needs. I really don't want to see yet another media centre startup [16:28] We could, but it has to have some serious theming love [16:28] there are way too many as there is [16:29] Does anybody remember Linux MCE? [16:29] What's wrong with a media center setup? [16:29] imnichol, Unity is a great desktop, but for a tv interface it is needing to be controlled by a remote control (IR probably), and then you have a bunch of wasted space [16:30] imnichol, media center startup, not setup. Being with Mythbuntu, I keep my eye on this and every so often a new group of developers will try to recreate a media center from scratch. I guess that is the open source way though [16:30] OH ok I gotcha [16:30] And yeah I agree about the remote thing [16:30] Sometimes it's a good idea, and things get better [16:31] other times it is just because someone didn't like the design of other media centers, and it's irrelevant [16:31] Those are some good arguments [16:31] MrChrisDruif, personally I think the XBMC theming engine has some good features [16:31] I assume we're all also on the ubuntu-phone mailing list? [16:31] I'm not [16:31] imnichol; I am at least [16:32] although I think there are probably a lot of similarities between the two (tv and phone) [16:32] Linux MCE is a heavily modified MythTV frontend [16:32] There's been some discussion on the ubuntu-phone list about using phones to control the tvs [16:32] And I presume that tablets could do the same thing [16:32] imnichol, I do that already :) [16:33] Yeah, and more [16:33] I like some features that LinuxMCE apparently has, like controlling the lighting in your house [16:33] MrChrisDruif, there is a lot of hardware that is necessary for that [16:34] Yeah, but still the option to do so [16:34] home automation is something that we should consider though, I think it should be low priority though [16:34] Just some checkmark somewhere that you have that kind of hardware [16:34] First of indeed, but when the "basics" are done we should consider it [16:35] MrChrisDruif, the issue is there isn't really a standard used to control that [16:35] Either here or the entire platform ;-) [16:35] tgm4883; the problem there are MULTIPLE standards used ;-) [16:35] +is [16:35] MrChrisDruif, well yes. Multiple standards == no standards :) [16:36] -s [16:36] And that is just for lighting [16:36] you could do heating, CCTV, VOIP, all which seem to have multiple standards [16:37] Minimally, I think lighting would be nice to have though since we are talking TV's and media centers [16:37] That's why I mentioned it in the first place ;-) [16:37] And after that I think VoIP? [16:38] VoIP or CCTV [16:38] Easier will be CCTV ;-) [16:38] along with VoIP, Video calling as well [16:38] yes [16:39] But concerning this project I'd say Video Conferencing [16:39] yes, Video conferencing would be nice and is a growing market [16:39] (I was thinking about that instead of the "official" ViOP ;-) ) [16:40] Euhm VoIP* [16:41] Euhm, I was missing playback features [16:41] Like Blu-ray doesn't work at all for me [16:41] I've heard that can be solved with the paid fluenza codec pack, but that just one small mention somewhere [16:42] So that is another angle, physical media [16:42] Yeah [16:42] Can i ask, what is UTV targeted towards? being preinstalled in a TV set or a set top box? [16:43] I was starting to wonder that myself, if we would consider playback of physical media [16:43] MrChrisDruif, looks like it might, their site doesn't point out bluray [16:43] it does list the codecs, but I think the issue might be the encryption keys [16:44] callumsaunders1, not sure, I would say ideally on the TV, pre-built set-top box, and also an image you could install yourself [16:45] I think in order to say it is on a TV, it needs to be built into the TV, although if it was one of the small linaro units that could be attached to the TV I'd be ok with that [16:46] sorry, that is a freescale board, the mx53 [16:48] Small quote from the Fluendo website about bluray playback: "We are currently not moving much in that field as BluRay has a lot of legal constraints making it very difficult for a Linux product to include it(we cannot certify it as DRM compliant). We will add support on GStreamer when libbluray and libaacs are ready for show time, so that the OpenSource players can benefit from it. Don't expect a "commercial" Linux BluRay player from F [16:48] luendo anytime soon, though." [16:50] Given the abilities of the raspberry pi, I imagine that there could be TVs with the computer portion built in [16:51] Here is an interview from UDS regarding the i.mx53 from freescale [16:51] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KtYAbAzJRw [16:51] Current flatscreen tv's already have software on them [16:51] the size of the board is pretty tiny [16:51] MrChrisDruif, yea, but every time i've used the built in stuff, it's pretty slow/crappy [16:52] I can't see how UbuntuTV could work without here being an 'Ubuntu TV', if you get what i mean, time has proven that nobody wants another set top box [16:52] More on that board with a better image of it http://www.linaro.org/linaro-blog/2011/03/01/new-low-cost-cortex-a8-board-from-freescale/ [16:52] tgm4883; I know, but that can all change when they might start using ARM processors i.e. [16:52] Note: i'm not affialiated with Linaro nor Freescale [16:53] Like I said, ARM ;-) [16:53] MrChrisDruif, could be ARM, could be Atom [16:54] Haha, Atom...a dieing race. It's got some catching-up to do [16:54] Atom is normal x86 btw [16:54] It seems to me that we should be eating our own dog food here [16:54] yes, x86 and x86-64 [16:54] Also? [16:54] I mean with the ARM stuff Ubuntu is starting to do [16:55] imnichol, unfortunatly I didn't win any of the ARM boards they gave away at UDS :( [16:55] That said, again I don't think it's something we should recreate from scratch. There are some perfectly capable media centers out there [16:56] I'd have to look more into XBMC, I've heard conflicting reports whether it would work on ARM or not [16:56] I don't thin Ubuntu TV should just be another media center [16:57] If we want something soon, then yes. But if we want something good, well maybe we should? [16:57] So if it's not just another media center, what is it? [16:57] MrChrisDruif, and that is how you start writing another media center from scratch [16:57] Even Apple have failed to do the TV thing [16:57] callumsaunders1, what would you like to see from it? [16:57] callumsaunders1; it depends on what we want to achieve for TV? [16:58] I don't think any of us think it's going to be strictly a media center, but I don't think we would say it is a desktop either [16:58] I think that with Ubuntu getting into Tablets and phones and toilets what ever [16:58] then that will be be its biggest advantage [16:58] and all these devices should be able to play together [16:58] True [16:58] callumsaunders1, sounds like you haven't read my super long email :) [16:58] Haha, seems so [16:59] there is interesting convo going on in the ubuntu-phone mailing list about using the tv as a hub for collaboritive and social applications [16:59] I think we are all on the same page here :) [16:59] where is this email? [16:59] It was yesterday on the ubuntu-tv list [16:59] callumsaunders1, on the Ubuntu TV mailing list [16:59] callumsaunders1; https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00003.html [16:59] give me a min then :P [16:59] There you go O=) [17:00] lol [17:01] MrChrisDruif, So I guess the question is, what are we trying to achieve that isn't currently an option with the already existing media centers? [17:01] talking software here, not getting it on TV's [17:02] thanks for the link, tgm4883, i agree with you on practically all points [17:02] tgm4883; it might not be creating what isn't on existing media centers, but finding a good way to put it all together in a fuss-free manner [17:03] callumsaunders1, thanks, I'm on the Mythbuntu team so i've been watching what people have been requesting for the last 3 years :) [17:04] Haha people are funny though, they rarely know what they want [17:04] MrChrisDruif, I'm not tied to any particular media center, I just don't want to recreate the wheel if we don't have to [17:04] well [17:04] what they need [17:04] callumsaunders1, what people need and what people want are two very different things [17:04] true [17:05] Mostly I listen to what people want and if it's awesome, start thinking about what it would take to make it happen [17:05] sometimes it pans out, sometimes it requires too much other stuff [17:07] tgm4883; I think we should make a list of all the feature we might want implemented for a first version and see what software is most compatible? [17:07] (I think it would be XBMC, but still) [17:08] MrChrisDruif, I think that is a great idea [17:08] When do we even WANT a first release? [17:08] Tomorrow [17:08] Not until its ready. [17:08] I heard something in the lines of AFTER 12.04 [17:08] well regarding that, whatever we do, I don't think we should switch core items like that [17:08] especially if we make it pluggable [17:08] scratch that, I think pluggable is a requirement [17:09] MrChrisDruif, yea, it's definitly after 12.04 [17:09] I'm guessing 13.04 [17:09] Alright, about a year of development [17:09] Right? [17:09] willcooke or popey would probably know more ^^ [17:10] * tgm4883 is unsure if there are other canonical employees in the room [17:10] Please speak ;-) (Btw, popey you've still got voice in here ;-) ) [17:10] for the record, I am not employed by canonical [17:11] I'm just passionate about TV's :) [17:11] * MrChrisDruif wants to become a canonical employee =P but that doesn't count [17:11] just a dude [17:12] same [17:12] Well, how long is a piece of string? I think first we need to know *what*. Then we can work out *who* and divide up the jobs. Then we'll work out *how long* by "simply" dividing one by the other. [17:13] In my mind, it makes sense to build on an LTS though [17:13] Haha, simply ;-) [17:13] willcooke, I agree with the LTS (Mythbuntu is moving to LTS only releases for similar reasons) [17:14] MrChrisDruif, we're hiring. Check out the careers page! Loads of jobs [17:14] Is there somewhere we should be making a list of features? [17:15] tgm4883, Good idea - we need a wiki page [17:15] we can make it here, but it should be documented somewhere for discussion before it goes in a blueprint [17:15] We have a log bot, but I think a wiki page would be easier to maintain and follow [17:16] willcooke, Wiki it is, although I really liked the etherpad we used at UDS [17:16] tgm4883, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of that [17:16] Problem with etherpad's is that you need rights to view them [17:16] Or at least, I did [17:17] well, whatever is easiest - but not IRC :) [17:17] Agreed [17:18] Hmmmm - I don't have an account on the Ubuntu wiki. Ooops. [17:18] I really hate that I need to create so many different accounts. [17:19] Ubuntu one SSO FTW! [17:20] alright someone create a page, i'm going to grab a drink then we can discuss [17:21] Ubuntu UK team has a public wiki. [17:22] you're probably better off using that for now [17:22] because the ubuntu.com one is getting some maintenance soon === popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV [17:22] there you go [17:23] ^^ Shameless plug [17:23] Ahh, I thought you meant wiki... [17:23] Sweet [17:26] Now, where was that mail...*goes to inbox* [17:39] So we have a pretty nifty list over at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV [17:39] If anyone wants to pop in and take a look, we're going to start ranking them [17:42] * popey thinks it should be clearly labelled as a wishlist ☺ [17:42] a community developed wishlist no-less [17:42] done [17:42] ta [17:42] don't want people wandering in and thinking this is a feature list which we've already settled on ☺ [17:43] popey, how is that? [17:44] haha [17:45] thats outrageous! [17:45] it's 'popey' not 'Popey' [17:45] fixed :) [18:00] Hey everyone! [18:00] Aloha [18:00] ok, so prioritizing the items, we will discuss that here so it's logged and other people can weigh in [18:00] Sounds good [18:00] What's first? [18:01] Item 1: 10' interface [18:01] That's like the definition of what we should be doing [18:01] I don't suppose we have any designers here? [18:01] popey; I think you had a meeting bot lying around? [18:01] Not professional I think callumsaunders1 [18:02] well I was thinking this needs to be more of a higher level discussion for prioritizing the items, not an indepth discussion about each one [18:02] unless that is what people want [18:02] * MrChrisDruif has to go I'm afraid [18:02] I hope someone can post the log somewhere so I can have a read back? [18:03] I'm down for a high level discussion [18:03] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/22/%23ubuntu-tv.html [18:03] already logging [18:03] Thanks popey =) === popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ [18:03] * MrChrisDruif is off [18:04] I mean, we can discuss how to implement a 10' interface (whether it is built from scratch or something already created) at a later time [18:04] bye [18:04] ok no problem [18:07] So i think the consensus of the 10' UI was ESSENTIAL, correct? [18:07] agreed [18:07] Yes [18:07] ok, second item: Watching Media (DVR, Live, Network) [18:07] whats tv without it [18:07] also ESSENTIAL [18:07] exactly [18:08] the first two are pretty easy :) [18:08] both ESSENTIAL, the rest of the items we'll probably actually have to discuss [18:08] ok, third item - Plugin support [18:09] currently listed as HIGH [18:09] When we say "plugin" what are we talking about? [18:09] Like abiltity to extend the software capabilities? [18:09] yes [18:09] similar to the way banshee has plugins [18:09] i would rather see apps for that [18:09] The issue with having apps for that, is then you need a way to control that particular app [18:10] the way phones work [18:10] true. [18:10] callumsaunders1, I think that works for phones since you have a common expected input device [18:10] also, phone apps are built for that input device [18:10] i dont think plugin should be priority, i think the experience needs to be created first and then devs can add on to that [18:11] i get you [18:11] where as other apps aren't going to be built to be controlled by a remote control, smart phone, tablet etc [18:11] well thats the point, devs can't (easily) add on unless there is plugin support [18:12] So we're agreed that plugin support is a high priority then? [18:12] go for it [18:12] Oh wait, sorry, misread what callumsaunders1 was saying [18:12] Sorry dude, didn't mean to stomp on you or anything [18:12] no problem [18:13] so high or medium? [18:14] if it'll promote development then high [18:14] I think it will, at the least, it could allow for third party companies to build plugins for it (eg. netflix, amazon VOD, etc) [18:15] I don't think that is happening without it [18:15] good stuff [18:15] ok, so next is - Cloud and/or server storage (for home grown media) [18:15] currently at HIGH [18:16] high [18:16] Yeah [18:16] we provide this for windows [18:16] ok then [18:17] next - Playback of physical media (USB cd/dvd/bluray drive) [18:17] high [18:17] high [18:17] It's kind of going into set-top box territory [18:17] But I think that it's a good added value [18:17] Blue-ray would have to work though [18:17] And IIRC from earlier in the conversation, that's maybe not happening so fast? [18:18] could a manufacturer add blu ray support on their own though? [18:19] i want to see a tv where you can just plug in a blur ray drive via usb and the tv handles it [18:19] oops, blu ray [18:19] blur ray would be a terrible format [18:20] lol [18:22] But that's a good question: if the tv runs Ubuntu, is there going to be a way for the manufacturer to add blueray support? [18:23] And as a corellary: will it not be a sucky tacked-on pile of crap? [18:23] cant we provide it, and just allow the manufacturer to enable it [18:30] callumsaunders1, from a technical standpoint, the TV could provide a bluray player and then we could just control it. We would probably do LiveTV the same way [18:30] which is allow the TV to do the heavy lifting, and just control it and have the Ubuntu interface be an overlay [18:32] sorry about the delay, was called away for a quick issue [18:33] sounds good [18:33] Next item - Installable image [18:33] currently HIGH [18:33] high [18:33] This goes along the lines of a STB [18:34] i was thinking for testing [18:34] I was thinking for installing it on your own hardware, rather than purchasing pre-built systems [18:35] both are good [18:35] willcooke: can I get one rasperry pi? It has HDMI. :) [18:35] And h264 video acceleration [18:36] I think the raspberry pi will be a great little video player, but I doubt it's usefulness as a "STB" - just not enough power [18:36] I listened the UDS session recording [18:37] someone mentioned pandaboard [18:37] unfortunately that's pretty much a no-go [18:37] Wellark, have you seen the freescale i.mx53 [18:37] because they have no predictable lead-time. I tried to get one for myself and gave up after 4 months of waiting and no news on next patch [18:38] tgm4883: I know the board, haven't had the opportunity to play with one, yet [18:38] Linaro showed one off at UDS playing 1080p video beautifully [18:39] sure, those can do that [18:39] callumsaunders1, imnichol next item - Easy configuration of new devices (eg. installing same plugins, mounting same network shares) [18:39] currently HIGH [18:39] Yes [18:39] I'm thinking that could be moved to medium [18:39] oh, sorry. you have a meeting. didn't realize. I'll shutup now [18:40] high yes [18:40] join in [18:41] Ubuntu One accounts are a prerequisite.. [18:41] Wellark, we're just trying to prioritize what we think features should be [18:41] next -Ubuntu One Accounts [18:41] define prerequisite? [18:41] Can I use the TV without Ubuntu One? [18:42] it is needed, to be able to use the cloud store [18:42] I gotta go, I'm really excited to see things moving so quickly. Thanks guys, I'll catch you all tomorrow [18:42] you should be able. not all TV's are connected to the internet [18:42] bye willcooke [18:43] strong ubuntu one integration is very important from day-0 IMHO [18:43] Ok, so for Ubuntu one accounts, it's a high priority then? [18:43] I agree you shouldnt NEED an account, but to use cloud storage it is necessary [18:43] yes [18:43] everything that would depend on it is currently medium priority [18:44] which is why U1 needs to be there first [18:44] Ubuntu1 is a cruzial factor of the "Unity Experience" [18:44] ok HIGH then [18:44] moving on [18:45] - Control from portable devices (phones/tablets/remotes) [18:45] currently medium [18:45] I would leave it as is [18:45] Wellark - any reason? [18:45] we should ammend this to phones/tablets, and make a separate entry for remotes that is ESSENTIAL [18:45] you have to provide a standalone remote anyway [18:45] yes [18:46] which should be very low-tech [18:46] (cheap) [18:46] I mean, it is required to have some sort of control, but phone/tablet would be gravy [18:46] also i wouldnt rule out controlling the tv from a laptop/pc either [18:46] sure [18:46] Ok yeah [18:46] but no point marking everything HIGH :) [18:46] Good point [18:46] added "web interface" [18:46] hmm [18:46] agree, which is why I say we make "remotes" essential and leave the rest of this one as medium [18:47] or possibly low [18:47]