[11:50] <rick_h_> morning party people
[12:38] <snap-l> Ugh, morning colds are not fun
[12:38] <snap-l> trying to clear out the accumulated guck from overnight
[12:39] <rick_h_> heh, same here
[12:39] <rick_h_> wife and I are so attractive these last few mornings
[12:39] <snap-l> Yeah, Jodee's also got the galloping crud
[12:39] <snap-l> Wondering if a humidifier might help
[12:39] <rick_h_> sad day, removed #pyramid and #sqlalchemy from my irc idling
[12:39] <snap-l> aw
[12:40] <rick_h_> yea, we've had ours running and helps for sure
[12:40] <rick_h_> but hey, three bug fixes landed and on the live LP site!
[12:40] <snap-l> which one did you pick up?
[12:40] <snap-l> (humidifier)
[12:40] <rick_h_> we've got two, I really like the sonic one we got for Michael
[12:40] <rick_h_> sec
[12:40] <rick_h_> was a woot deal last year, can't recall the name
[12:41] <rick_h_> http://www.amazon.com/Venta-Sonic-VS205-Ultrasonic-Humidifier/dp/B001E43SMS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321965652&sr=8-1
[12:41] <rick_h_> if you like quiet, this is the ticket
[12:42] <rick_h_> wife and I use this one: http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-QuietCare-Cool-Moisture-Humidifier-3-Gallon/dp/B0002UXDRA/ref=sr_1_17?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1321965755&sr=1-17
[12:42] <rick_h_> home depot special
[12:43] <rick_h_> works, but it loud and I don't like the filter setup much
[12:43] <snap-l> Yeah, lound is not an option
[12:53] <snap-l> Cool. Thanks!
[12:56] <rick_h_> np, good luck
[13:12] <Wolfger> morning
[13:13] <rick_h_> party
[13:13] <Wolfger> woot
[13:13] <Wolfger> Indeed, I am the only person from my group that is at the plant today. It's a good start to having a party
[13:13] <rick_h_> lol, holiday week, gotta love it
[13:13] <Wolfger> unfortunately, I'm also dealing with multiple problems :-p
[13:14] <rick_h_> man, how did I live without imapfilter for a while
[13:18] <brousch> rick_h_: by using a sane email client?
[13:18] <rick_h_> lol, no by not getting much email I think
[13:18] <rick_h_> but good try!
[13:20] <brousch> new guy came to grpug last night. he was using arch with DWM
[13:21] <brousch> his dad uses arch with awesome
[13:21] <rick_h_> hah!
[13:21] <rick_h_> <32
[13:21] <rick_h_> err <3
[13:21] <brousch> i'll take gnome shell, thanks
[13:21] <rick_h_> you can have it
[13:21] <rick_h_> though I must admit it's the one I've not tried yet
[13:34] <Wolfger> So I've got to ask... what makes the deficit "super-committee" super? So far as I can tell, it's just a committee...
[13:34] <Wolfger> is it just an ego thing, or are there actual sub-committees that nobody ever talks about?
[13:36] <brousch> it is composed of super legislators
[13:36] <brousch> they get a cape and tight-fitting clothes with the first letter of their name on their chest
[13:46] <snap-l> The deficit supercommittee has John Kerry on it
[13:46] <snap-l> And John Kerry is thuper, thanks for athking.
[13:50] <snap-l> Frankly, I'd have been surprised if the Suer Committee could have agreed on pizza toppings
[13:51] <snap-l> About the only thing this congress can agree upon is that Pizza itself is a vegetable
[13:51] <snap-l> which, by extension, means I know what I'm planting this spring.
[13:53] <rick_h_> jcastro: so no more upstream schmoozing? congrats! :)
[13:53] <rick_h_> poor jcastro has too much sysadmin in his blood yet
[13:53] <rick_h_> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/22/canonical-community-team-12-04-plans/
[14:09] <snap-l> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-November/003486.html
[14:12] <rick_h_> ouch, unfortunately this guy is right a little bit
[14:12] <rick_h_> it definitely needs a deprecated phase
[14:12] <rick_h_> problem is the LTS timing
[14:12] <rick_h_> horrible time for the move and an LTS to collide
[14:14] <snap-l> Yeah, I can't fault him for being pissed
[14:14] <snap-l> the time to have worked on this was after 10.04, not just before 12.04
[14:15] <snap-l> If they could have even made it a drop-in couchdb replacement, I'd have been OK with that as well
[14:15] <rick_h_> meh, that's a bit hard
[14:17] <snap-l> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-November/003487.html
[14:17] <snap-l> And here's where the fire gets pissed out with gasoline.
[14:17]  * rick_h_ is afraid to open that
[14:18] <snap-l> Ok, it's not quite as bad as that
[14:19] <snap-l> but the assertion that it's a small minority of developers stings a bit
[14:19] <snap-l> because it send the message that you can't rely on anything that Canonical pushes on the desktop without getting burned.
[14:19] <brousch> it's just the ones that drank most heavily the ubuntuone koolaid, right?
[14:20] <snap-l> brousch: Matter of perspective
[14:20] <snap-l> I think it's more fair to say that it's folks who believed that Ubuntu One was a baked product.
[14:21] <snap-l> and they could start developing with it as a third party.
[14:21] <snap-l> Gets back to the whole API discussion
[14:21] <brousch> did they actually try using it ;)
[14:22] <snap-l> Well, this developer appears to have invested int he couchDB syncing of Ubuntu One.
[14:22] <rick_h_> yea, rule #1 do everything you can to wrap the @#$#@ out of things you use and build your API yourself
[14:22] <rick_h_> then you can try to swap out the backend with fewer issues hopefully
[14:23] <snap-l> Well, it depends on what this new U1DB will be
[14:23] <snap-l> 6 months to make a production-ready scalable database does not give me hope
[14:23] <snap-l> also wonder what it'll do for backward compatibility.
[14:23] <brousch> does U1 work on other distros yet?
[14:23] <snap-l> i.e.: does U1 break for anything not 12.04?
[14:23] <rick_h_> yea, think they got it on windows
[14:23] <snap-l> Windows
[14:24] <rick_h_> and they're hiring devs to work on other platforms
[14:24] <brousch> the only windows users who will use it are those also running ubuntu
[14:24] <snap-l> If they get a decent U1 on iPhone, I might switch back some functionality to it.
[14:24] <snap-l> brousch: well, no shit
[14:25] <brousch> i just think it's foolish to write a program for linux that works on one distro
[14:25] <snap-l> You have no use for U1 without having Ubuntu in the mix
[14:25] <snap-l> brousch: so port it to Linux Mint. ;)
[14:25] <snap-l> since that's the #1 distro out there.
[14:26] <snap-l> (note: I put about as much faith in #1 distro rankings that I put in to my politicians to actualy do useful and non-harmful work)
[14:26] <brousch> unity has the same issue. why would you write something for unity when it won't work on any other distro?
[14:27] <snap-l> perceived leadership role?
[14:27] <snap-l> Why do people write for Windows?
[14:27] <snap-l> marketshare
[14:28] <brousch> windows is still like 90% of all computers. linux is 2%, ubuntu is half of that 1%?
[14:28] <Wolfger> snap-l: when you write for Windows, it works on every Windows distribution of equal or greater version, right? ;-)
[14:28] <rick_h_> no, linux is 2% - servers are 80% of that 2% and ubuntu is 50% of that
[14:29] <brousch> but ubuntu servers don't have unity
[14:29] <rick_h_> right, which is why I took them out
[14:29] <brousch> do they even have ubuntu1?
[14:29] <snap-l> brousch: I think you can add it, but not 100% sure
[14:29] <rick_h_> anyway, it's not many
[14:30] <brousch> to me, it seems very short-sighted to program for such a narrow market
[14:30] <snap-l> I don't think they even calculate server marketshare, do they?
[14:30] <rick_h_> meh, it's a niche we all live in
[14:30] <snap-l> I thought the 1.x% marketshare was desktops
[14:30] <rick_h_> snap-l: probably not
[14:30] <snap-l> WE ARE THE 1%!
[14:30] <snap-l> (sorry)
[14:30] <Wolfger> brousch: does the size of the market matter when you're coding FOSS for free?
[14:30] <rick_h_> we are the <1%!
[14:30] <brousch> make your app work with dropbox, now you have a much larger, well established user base
[14:31] <rick_h_> yea, but in theory U1 will give you better apis for that stuff
[14:31] <rick_h_> on dropbox just means you have files and do file sync
[14:31] <brousch> then add in ubuntu1 support if you're an ubuntu fanboy
[14:31] <snap-l> u1 was also for syncing to multiple ubuntu desktops
[14:32] <snap-l> gwibber was supposed to sync your credentials across multiple machines
[14:32] <snap-l> and sync your read messages
[14:32] <snap-l> (or at least if it didn't, it would have been nice)
[14:33] <snap-l> big issue is that CouchDB has scaling problems
[14:33] <snap-l> And I'm SUUUUURE that U1DB won't have any problems at all.
[14:34] <brousch> they'll go with oracle
[14:34] <snap-l> brousch: mongodb
[14:35] <snap-l> OK, time to do something useful.
[14:35] <snap-l> laterness.
[14:35] <brousch> rehashing the same old arguments on the internet isn't useful?!
[14:35] <Wolfger> heh
[14:35] <ColonelPanic001> lol seatbelts
[14:36] <brousch> helmets!
[14:36] <Wolfger> noooooooooooo
[14:36] <snap-l> If I could get paidfor bitching on the Internet, I'd be a millionaire.
[14:36]  * snap-l goes off to cash in his internet $$
[14:37] <Wolfger> $1,000,000,000,000 Internet Dollars -> $0.02 USD
[14:48] <brousch> digikam is generating signatures for each of my 68,000 photos so it can check for duplicates
[14:49] <rick_h_> brousch: see you next week :P
[14:49] <brousch> 2% in 10mins
[14:54] <brousch> 8 hours seems reasonable
[15:00] <Wolfger> brousch: that's quite the adult-picture collection you have there...
[15:00]  * Wolfger nods approvingly
[15:01] <brousch> heh
[15:02] <brousch> i suspect there are really only 8000 unique photos. the rest are duplicates, thumbnails, and internet cache that ended up in the same pile when i switched from linux->osx->linux->osx->linux
[15:08] <Wolfger> Typing gloves? 0_o   http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/121010/comfortable-typing-gloves
[15:10] <brousch> i could've used them before we rebuilt the front of the building here
[15:10] <brousch> cold days my fingers would hurt
[15:11] <Milyardo> In my day we typed in the snow, on stone keyboards, and liked it.
[15:12] <rick_h_>  lol, that's awesome
[15:12] <brousch> heh, looking at ssh servers for android and i see a negative review from aaron topance
[15:12] <rick_h_> I've heard of that guy...
[15:12] <rick_h_> oh right, interviewed him at #OLF and he's on lococast
[15:14] <Wolfger> and somehow I've been following him on Twitter/Identica forever. I think probably due to work with Bug Squad.
[15:15] <brousch> just thought it was funny to see a name i recognized in the android market app reviews
[15:15] <Wolfger> Seems to me that if there's USB fans for hot weather, there should be USB heaters for cold weather. Not finding them, though... Probably too much juice
[15:15] <rick_h_> Wolfger: fire hazard
[15:15] <rick_h_> lol
[15:16] <brousch> my macbook pro used to keep my fingers toasty during the winter
[15:16] <Wolfger> then again, most laptops, just stick your fingers near the cooling fan for a little bit, they'll warm right up
[15:16] <rick_h_> there you go
[15:16] <rick_h_> use the resources at hand
[15:16] <Wolfger> brousch: beat me to it :-p
[15:16] <rick_h_> "it's chilly in here...time to upgrade! Dual hex-core ftw!"
[15:18] <Milyardo> I think GPUs generally generate more than than the CPU. Turning on Crysis should bring the tropical weather to you.
[15:21]  * Wolfger looks for a research paper entitled Effect of the Computer Age on Global Climate
[15:22] <Wolfger> "suddenly, developed countries are becoming warmer while undeveloped countries experience no increase in yearly average temperature"
[15:23] <Wolfger> ah, who am I kidding? It's global warming. Thanks, Pentium.
[15:41] <snap-l> Wolfger: Heh, that's why I have a desktop machine on the floor
[15:41] <snap-l> makes for a nice space-heater.
[15:42] <snap-l> CPU Temperature:  +114.8°F  (high = +149.0°F, crit = +203.0°F)
[15:42] <snap-l> MB Temperature:   +134.6°F  (high = +113.0°F, crit = +203.0°F)
[15:43] <snap-l> I wish there was a way to put a larger fan in this computer
[15:45] <rick_h_> snap-l: heh, I've got a bandsaw
[15:45] <rick_h_> drill a hole inthe side of the case, insert blade, cut circle
[15:45] <rick_h_> mount any size fan you want
[15:45] <snap-l> No
[15:45] <snap-l> nonononono
[15:45] <snap-l> Im not doing that
[15:45] <brousch> make it so
[15:46] <rick_h_> well fine then, don't let me break out the sharp tools
[15:46] <brousch> add some bright blue LEDs while you're at it
[15:46] <rick_h_> woot!
[15:46] <snap-l> I have enough blue LEDs on this machine, thank you.
[15:47] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0357935 <- Oh, I totally need this case.
[15:48] <rick_h_> not enough fans
[15:48] <rick_h_> can we cut that one open?
[15:48] <snap-l> shoo
[15:48] <snap-l> begone, mr driller
[15:49] <rick_h_> lol
[15:49] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0365241 < Even better
[15:49] <snap-l> Is that a cupholder on the top?
[15:49] <snap-l> Because if it is, SOLD!
[15:49] <snap-l> or maybe it's a hot plate.
[16:34] <Milyardo> Fuck the hotplate, it has a microwave in the back
[16:38] <snap-l> heh
[17:02] <snap-l> http://deadspin.com/5861520/that-list-of-words-you-cant-text-in-pakistan-is-actually-the-list-of-things-you-cant-put-on-nfl-jerseys
[17:07] <brousch> heh
[17:12] <rick_h_> http://www.getharvest.com/blog/2011/11/behind-the-scenes-harvest-visits-3-nyc-design-firms/
[17:12] <rick_h_> I love the board at the bottom
[17:12] <rick_h_> I want to do a startup just to get one of those going
[17:17] <brousch> the electronic or sticky note board?
[17:17] <rick_h_> the giant monitor
[17:17] <rick_h_> with the android looking widget on it
[17:20] <Wolfger> snap-l: those cases are full of win, but those case prices are not. I've bought an entire desktop PC for the price of that second case.
[17:21] <snap-l> http://www.getharvest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Barrel-Team4.jpg <- Looks like a classroom lab more than an office
[17:21] <snap-l> Wolfger: Yeah, and I'm not about to get rid of my lian li
[17:22] <snap-l> Just interesting to see case designs
[17:22] <snap-l>  Some of these cases just look like shit
[17:23] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0334041
[17:24] <Wolfger> $37 shit-looking case will always win over $250 totally-awesome case in my book
[17:24] <Wolfger> checkbook, that is
[17:24] <snap-l> I love how the new nome-de-plume of expensive cases is "Gaming Case"
[17:26] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0355600 <- Hey, they have it in black, too!
[17:28] <Wolfger> jcastro: rick_h_: and any other Canonical dudes... Shouldn't a package install config files and then remove them all when purged from the system? It seems to me that would be the user-friendly thing to do... http://askubuntu.com/questions/81761/ubuntu-how-full-remove-package
[17:28] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0345159 <- Hm, the box photo looks VERY familiar
[17:29] <rick_h_> Wolfger: it depends
[17:29] <snap-l> Wolfger: I found your next case
[17:29] <snap-l> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0317092
[17:29] <jcastro> Wolfger: the package manager, never, ever touches your files in ~
[17:29] <jcastro> it's Debian policy
[17:30] <snap-l> Please for the love of all that is holy do NOT ever remove things from my home directory.
[17:30] <snap-l> recommend that I purge them myself if they're incompatible
[17:31] <Wolfger> Well... something. Uninstalling software and leaving cruft behind just seems so.... Microsoft. :-p
[17:31] <rick_h_> Wolfger: imagine you keep your dotfiles in git
[17:31] <snap-l> Wolfger: config files are different
[17:31] <rick_h_> you uninstall the app, and then the files get removed from your git repo on next commit
[17:31] <rick_h_> you probably don't want that
[17:32] <snap-l> Wolfger: Also, personal config files are different than system-wide config
[17:32] <snap-l>  /etc files are fair game
[17:32] <snap-l> /home/[user]/ files are not
[17:34]  * Wolfger mulls the problem over some more
[17:35] <jcastro> I like that it doesn't touch them
[17:35] <jcastro> it lets me move them around from system to system
[17:35] <snap-l> http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/nonfiction/eb36/?cpg=178P&link
[17:35] <jcastro> though, it can be problematic in the case of this guy you linked
[17:35] <jcastro> I think it's just a symptom of the guy's problem
[17:36] <jcastro> which appears to be "I couldn't get it to work so I reinstalled it."
[17:36] <Wolfger> I've been bit before by the "I hosed something, so I want a fresh install, OMG why isn't it completely uninstalling" thing before, so I feel for this guy. And since Ubuntu is pretty clearly after the non-geek, non-CLI crowd, I think it's a real issue.
[17:36] <snap-l> First problem: Installing eclipse via apt
[17:37] <Wolfger> LOL
[17:39] <Wolfger> Maybe a "it looks like you have a previous configuration, would you like to use that?" prompt... but again, system wide install, individual configs... Not seeing a clean solution there. Especially in cases where the machine actually *is* a multi-user system
[17:40] <Wolfger> :-p
[17:51] <snap-l> Wolfger: I'd assume if someone is using Eclipse, they'd not be allergic to configuration files
[17:51] <Wolfger> well, there is that...
[17:51] <snap-l> and if they are, I'd encourage them to not develop anything that I will either want to use, or need to use. ;)
[17:52] <Wolfger> heh
[17:52] <snap-l> i.e.: If you're developing my life-saving heart monitor, and can't figure out config files, please let me die, because you're going to end up killing me anyway.
[17:53] <Wolfger> please don't make me literally LOL at work. People know I'm not working now...
[17:53] <snap-l> chuckle-fucks. ;)
[17:53]  * snap-l tries harder to make Wolfger laugh at work.
[18:01] <snap-l> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/121115/career-path-for-principal-developer-evangelist <- I swear, sometimes I wish there was a way to punch someone in the neck over the Internet
[18:03] <brousch> i've never touched a config file for eclipse. it's all gui
[18:05] <Wolfger> snap-l: wtf?
[18:06] <Wolfger> also, haven't we both discussed not ever using p.se?
[18:06] <Wolfger> :-D
[18:07] <brousch> craigm has a good reply
[18:07] <Wolfger> Right now I am lost in the XKCD money chart http://xkcd.com/980/huge/#x=-1822&y=-7300&z=5 and annoyed that he forgot the green dress (in the calculation of the cost of "If I Had a Million Dollars")
[18:07] <brousch> snap-l: maybe you should learn restraint from him
[18:09] <snap-l> hah, got closed just after I posted that
[18:11] <Wolfger> WTF? Minecraft sold over $56M?
[18:11] <snap-l> That doesn't surprise me
[18:12] <snap-l> There's money in games if you can find it.
[18:14] <Wolfger> Lifetime cost of avoiding changing your oil by abandoning your car and buying a new one every 5,000 miles.... 3.25M
[18:15] <Wolfger> That sounds like a decent use of lottery winnings to me :-)
[18:15] <Wolfger> although I'd give the old cars as gifts...
[18:24] <snap-l> http://www.meijer.com/s/m-audio-49-key-studio-synthesizer/_/R-205095
[18:35] <brousch> the royal wedding costed $80,000,000?!
[18:48] <snap-l> Yep
[18:48] <greg-g> jcastro: "I have moved things around a little when it comes to how we are growing our cloud community. Jorge Castro is now taking on the growth of the Ubuntu Cloud community" Things make much more sense now!
[18:49] <snap-l> Gotta make sure the royal progeny are kept in the lifestyle for which they have been accustomed
[18:49] <jcastro> heh
[18:49] <snap-l> I always knew that jcastro wanted to move to the cloud
[18:50] <greg-g> he's the clouds biggest fanboi
[18:50] <jcastro> I am just glad I am on server stuff. :)
[18:51] <rick_h_> sysadmin at heart
[18:51] <rick_h_> he can't get rid of it
[18:56] <snap-l> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9058804/jorge_calrissian.jpg <- new leader of Cloud City
[18:56] <Wolfger> ROFL
[18:57] <greg-g> oh em ge
[18:57] <Wolfger> that is freaking hilarious. Did you just GIMP that up?
[18:57] <snap-l> yep
[18:57] <brousch> snap-l++
[18:57] <Wolfger> publish to Ubuntu Planet
[19:02] <Wolfger> OK, Humble Bundle is just trying to steal my money now. Both Uplink and Darwinia are quite old. :-p
[19:09] <snap-l> I don't have membership yet.
[19:11] <rick_h_> man, stupid holiday. It should not take 11 days to deliver a 5 day package
[19:12] <snap-l> I have something coming from GR that has taken over a week
[19:12] <rick_h_> UPS?
[19:12] <snap-l> I think it's via media rate, but still that's damn slow.
[19:12] <rick_h_> or USPS?
[19:12] <snap-l> USPS
[19:12] <rick_h_> yea, I take whatever I think it'll take and double it for them
[19:13] <snap-l> UPS is a bunch of vindictive assholes, though
[19:13] <snap-l> they'll sit on something to make sure it's 3 day, even if it shows up beforehand
[19:13] <rick_h_> when I hit buy I thought "sure, 3-5 days will be fine" that was on the 17th
[19:13] <rick_h_> eta is 28th
[19:13] <rick_h_> heh, lovely
[19:15] <greg-g> my new camera went out for delivery yesterday at 8am and again today at 8am, those jerks
[19:15] <greg-g> all last night I was checking the front porch for the box
[19:15] <rick_h_> boooo
[19:16] <greg-g> oh, but the best part is whe nI got home, I asked carrie if it was here, she asked "it what?", I'm like "the camera!" ... "oh, its downstairs in our room" ..... I go to the room....
[19:16] <greg-g> open the box, and its....
[19:16] <greg-g> DIAPERS
[19:16] <greg-g> from my mom
[19:16] <greg-g> biggest let down ever
[19:16] <brousch> snap-l: what'd you order from GR?
[19:17] <_stink_> yay diapers!
[19:18] <greg-g> (for those in the know, they were actually diaper liners, but whatever, still not a DSLR)
[19:18] <rick_h_> lol
[19:18] <rick_h_> I've had to overnight diapers before
[19:18] <rick_h_> felt silly with the courier coming up the driveway in the van to hand me ... diapers
[19:18] <brousch> d00d, go to the store
[19:19] <rick_h_> no, they don't carry the big cost effective boxes
[19:19] <rick_h_> and since I pay prime, $3 to overnight
[19:19] <rick_h_> or is it $4
[19:19] <greg-g> were they still cost effective with overnight?
[19:19] <greg-g> ah, yeah, nice
[19:19] <rick_h_> and I don't have to pack up the baby into the car seat
[19:19] <rick_h_> that's worth $4 right there
[19:19] <Wolfger> heh
[19:20] <brousch> oh man, it's so nice once they can climb into the seat themselves
[19:20] <snap-l> Is multiwinia Linux?
[19:20] <brousch> and i got the minivan so i don't whack my head every time
[19:20] <snap-l> brousch: I bought a book via Amazon
[19:21] <snap-l> was from the GR goodwill
[19:21] <brousch> heh
[19:21] <Wolfger> OK, the vi/vim book casually mentions I can :set nu to see line numbers, but doesn't say how to make them go away (other than :q and reopen)
[19:21] <brousch> i thought maybe some west side memorabilia
[19:22] <Blazeix> Wolfger: set nonu
[19:23] <rick_h_> Wolfger: most things you can set have xxx and noxxx options
[19:23] <brousch> xxx please
[19:24] <Wolfger> LOL
[19:24] <Wolfger> :set xxx  (dammit rick_h_ it's not working! Where's the naughty stuff?)
[19:29] <snap-l> and speaking of which, the book arrived
[19:37] <brousch> wtf is juju?
[19:37] <Wolfger> It's amazing how little I knew about vi and yet have been "using it" for years.
[19:39] <rick_h_> Wolfger: lol, I still no nothing about vim
[19:41] <Blazeix> yeah, i'm still discovering stuff all the time. another neat line numbering thing is 'set rnu'
[19:41] <Blazeix> for relative line numbering
[19:41] <Wolfger> relative?
[19:41] <rick_h_> yea, I tried that once
[19:41] <rick_h_> but I can't get used to it
[19:42] <Wolfger> rick_h_: to give you an idea, I had no idea about a (append) c (change) or r (replace)
[19:42] <rick_h_> OMG!
[19:42] <Wolfger> I've been getting by with i and s
[19:42] <rick_h_> ci" cw I use a ton
[19:42] <Wolfger> never mind hand shit like cb
[19:42] <Wolfger> s/hand/handy/
[19:42] <rick_h_> yea, I don't do much backwards
[19:42] <rick_h_> F is about it
[19:43] <rick_h_> hard for me for some reason
[19:43] <Wolfger> yeah, if I wanted to change a word I either did dwi or (for short words) xxxs
[19:43] <Wolfger> sad
[19:50] <brousch> ah ha, i figured out where all of my pictures came from. apparently iphoto's facial recognition finds all of the pictures of faces in all of your pictures and makes a little thumbnail of the face
[19:50] <brousch> so i have a thumbnail photo of every face from every one of my photos
[19:50] <_stink_> creepy
[19:52] <brousch> omg the world is ending soon http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=28160
[19:53] <jjesse> yay?
[19:54] <snap-l>  /url 1
[19:55] <snap-l> Hey, MS has been known to put out things for Linux from time to time
[19:55] <snap-l> Generally when there's a corporate agenda behind it, but still...
[19:56] <snap-l> Anybody here remember Dragon's Lair? :)
[19:56]  * snap-l finally installed Daphne, and has been reliving some childhood
[20:06] <snap-l> greg-g: Man, you'd think the -NC was like a fucking dagger run across the fingers for some people
[20:07] <snap-l> http://identi.ca/conversation/85516120
[20:11] <greg-g> well, there is discussion of whether or not we should drop it as an option in the 4.0 version of the licenses
[20:11] <snap-l> I think that's a mistake
[20:12] <snap-l> (to drop it)
[20:13] <greg-g> hah, you're having a convo with a good buddy, cwebber
[20:13] <snap-l> Yeah, he's a reasonable fellow
[20:14] <greg-g> he's good, uber free software guy too
[20:14] <snap-l> Thing is, I wonder if folks like NIN or Eclipse Phase, or any number of the folks that I play on the show would bother with CC if the NC clause wasn't there.
[20:15] <snap-l> since there's not that many that don't put it there.
[20:16] <greg-g> I think the issue is hard to know, exactly, now given that the CC licenses currently provide -NC clauses. If we "take them away" then of course a subset will get mad
[20:17] <greg-g> but we can never know if adoption would have been different without them, no matter what someone says along the lines of "I wouldn't have used CC if it weren't for NC"
[20:17] <snap-l> I think it's a vocal minority that is having the whining fit
[20:17] <_stink_> what's the thumbnail rationale behind dropping -NC?
[20:17] <greg-g> 1. it isn't clear what it actually means
[20:17] <greg-g> 2. it is basically the same as Fair Use anyways (kinda)
[20:17] <greg-g> 2a. which begs the question: is it worth it?
[20:17] <snap-l> 2. No, it's not the same
[20:18] <_stink_> yeah, i'm not sure i get 2.
[20:18] <snap-l> Fair use limits me to less than 20 seconds
[20:18] <greg-g> there will be a (whole hell of a) lot more coming next week when we start the process of 4.0 versioning
[20:18] <greg-g> snap-l: you made that up
[20:18] <_stink_> tune in next week!
[20:18] <greg-g> there is no number of seconds
[20:18] <greg-g> see: sampling in music
[20:18] <greg-g> ONE NOTE requires a license
[20:19] <greg-g> fair use can include a whole work
[20:19]  * greg-g gets a guide...
[20:19] <snap-l> greg-g: So, if I sing "Chestnuts", I need a license?
[20:19] <greg-g> no no, not singing, reusing
[20:20] <greg-g> which is the important part of cc licensed works,being able to reuse the work
[20:20] <snap-l> and if so, then the CC is that license. :)
[20:20]  * greg-g didn't follow that "and if so.."
[20:21] <snap-l> ONE NOTE requires a license... and if so...
[20:22] <greg-g> oh, I was responding to your statement of fair use is < 20 seconds
[20:22] <rick_h_> phew, first real code submitting for merge proposal. Let the beating up of the new guy begin!
[20:22] <rick_h_> https://code.launchpad.net/~rharding/launchpad/bugfix_891735/+merge/83068 Blazeix what I ended up doing for the resizing stuff
[20:23] <snap-l> I see the CC -NC as permission to reuse the work as long as I don't charge for it
[20:23] <greg-g> unless it is a fair use, of course (which can include full copying with sale, depending on the other 2 factors) (just tring to complicate matters here :) )
[20:24] <_stink_> ok, i see.
[20:24] <snap-l> If I decide to do a Daft Punk podcast, I'm sure someone will get rather upset
[20:24] <_stink_> but isn't this also a problem with other CC licenses?  like SA can be ignored if fair use
[20:24] <greg-g> right, because a podcast isn't transformative
[20:24] <snap-l> Fair Use or no
[20:25] <greg-g> _stink_: exactly, fair use trumps all. Or, another more accurate way to think about it is: cc licenses only apply when copyright restrictions do, thus, if you use would have been a fair use under All Rights Reserved, it is a fair use under Cc licensed stuff
[20:25] <snap-l> Put another way, if I'm building up something from a body of work, I'm using CC because I don't want to have to ask everyone for permission, fair use or no
[20:25] <snap-l> because frankly, I don't like being in courtrooms
[20:26] <_stink_> greg-g: so i'd make the point that -NC is not uniquely a problem.
[20:26] <greg-g> well, right, so, kinda
[20:26] <snap-l> I think they just need to make it more clear that there can be exceptions to the NC clause (though I'm not sure how you make "YOU CAN GET A WAIVER" more clear.
[20:27] <greg-g> it isn't unique in that fair use always trumps, but, if what you can do with an NC licensed work is basically the same set of things you can do under fair use, then whats the point?
[20:27] <_stink_> i don't understand how commercial use and fair use are analogous.
[20:27] <snap-l> Because it's an explicit license, and not subject to the erosion of fair use? :)
[20:27] <greg-g> (but but, there are obviously uses that are not fair uses that you can exercise under CC BY NC)
[20:28] <_stink_> right.
[20:28] <snap-l> Again, it's a contract that I enter in with the rest of the world to say "this is what I like, and this is what will really piss me off"
[20:28]  * greg-g nods
[20:29] <snap-l> Also, fair use is American, correct?
[20:29] <snap-l> (i.e.: not everywhere respects fair use)
[20:29] <_stink_> from my little perch i think -NC *is* useful.  i want my work to be available for derivative works via CC but not by default in cases where fair use does not apply and someone wants to sell commercially.
[20:30] <greg-g> snap-l: exactly
[20:30] <_stink_> greg-g: fwiw if internal discussions care about the peanut gallery.
[20:30] <greg-g> _stink_: oh, this is going to be a totally public/open process (the versioning to 4.0)
[20:30] <_stink_> greg-g: ofc, silly me :)
[20:30] <greg-g> the cc-community and cc-licenses mailing lists will be crazy
[20:30] <snap-l> I guess I'm not particularly clear on what the problems were with 3.0. :)
[20:31] <greg-g> there are a few
[20:31] <snap-l> COnsidering there's one site out there that still uses Sampling Plus... :)
[20:32] <greg-g> yeah, that lame license ;)
[20:32] <greg-g> paroneayea: you just missed:
[20:32] <greg-g> 15:31 <    snap-l> COnsidering there's one site out there that still uses Sampling Plus... :)
[20:32] <greg-g> 15:32 <    greg-g> yeah, that lame license ;)
[20:32] <paroneayea> rumors on the internets that there's a CC/NC/fair use discussion in #ubuntu-us-mi
[20:32]  * paroneayea crashes the party
[20:32] <paroneayea> :)
[20:33] <paroneayea> yeah well we deprecated sampling plus this year
[20:33] <greg-g> snap-l: paroneayea == cwebber
[20:33] <paroneayea> suckaaaas
[20:33] <snap-l> Hey, paroneayea, this is Craig from Open Metalcast.
[20:33] <paroneayea> heya snap-l :)
[20:34] <snap-l> Yeah, I think Positron Records was using it for some of their artists
[20:34] <paroneayea> snap-l: so you're a fan of the CC No-Community license eh
[20:34] <snap-l> Anywho, was trying to understand the hullabaloo over -NC
[20:34] <paroneayea> ;)
[20:34] <snap-l> Bah
[20:35] <paroneayea> CC BY No-Community No-Dialogue license
[20:35] <snap-l> I can cite more -NC licensed works than BY or SA
[20:35] <snap-l> BY-SA, BY-ND
[20:35] <paroneayea> snap-l: our bad, I think http://creativecommons.org/choose/ doesn't really make clear the full impacts of what that option means
[20:35] <paroneayea> when people pick it
[20:36] <snap-l> paroneayea: On the contrary, I think it's quite clear
[20:36] <snap-l> I don't think Eclipse Phase by Posthuman Studios would be CC without NC
[20:37] <snap-l> nor do I think the bands that release CC material would release as much
[20:37] <greg-g> snap-l: the cool part is, the percentage of reallyFree vs kindaFree CC licenses is moving more towards reallyFree (ie: no NC or ND): http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Metrics
[20:37] <snap-l> greg-g: Oh, no doubt.
[20:37] <greg-g> yeah, just a data point of coolness, not an argument either way, really
[20:37] <snap-l> I've been trying to convince bands that just release their stuff "for free" to consider releasing under a CC license
[20:38] <snap-l> Their concern is that people don't profit from their work
[20:38] <snap-l> and that's what NC seems to give them
[20:38] <greg-g> well...
[20:38] <snap-l> These aren't your normal freedom-loving bands, either
[20:38] <greg-g> licensing your stuff under CC:BY-NC doesn't mean you make money, you still gotta do all the same work that was required under ARR
[20:38] <greg-g> :)
[20:38] <snap-l> Carthasy picked CC because Bandcamp gave them the option
[20:39] <snap-l> greg-g: Correct, but it gives them a choice to be more explicit
[20:39] <greg-g> also, the argument has been made that it is unlikely that someone else will come along and be able to effectively sell your CC:BY work when your CC:BY work is already availale online
[20:39] <snap-l> ARR takes all of the cards off the table.
[20:40] <snap-l> greg-g: Remember shareware tables at computer shows?
[20:40] <greg-g> and, if they are able to sell your work, they are probably just doing something that you should be doing (ie: providing CD/vinyl/whatever options)
[20:40] <snap-l> People will sell anything to unsuspecting buyers.
[20:40] <greg-g> oh, sure, but that isn't a lost sale
[20:40] <snap-l> Correct
[20:41] <snap-l> I'm just saying that NC lays all of the cards on the table for what the artist / publisher is expecting
[20:42] <snap-l> and if you take that off the table, I predict fewer big publishers will take this seriously
[20:42] <greg-g> there's a section of the community that more correlates with the education sphere that uses NC not because they want to make money off of it, but because they don't want things to ever be charged for, which is kind of weird. Because sometimes just providing access (ie: paper copies of Wikipedia to rural/no internet users) costs money
[20:42] <snap-l> http://www.cosmicpatrol.com/?page_id=54
[20:42] <greg-g> I understand that they feel that, I just don't think its *actually* doing anything *for* them
[20:43] <greg-g> but, I have no hard data, just feelings
[20:43] <greg-g> as always
[20:43] <snap-l> NC != No Charge
[20:44] <greg-g> snap-l: if you want to continue this convo ( :) ) I would recommend joining the cc-community and cc-licenses mailing lists: http://creativecommons.org/contact/
[20:44] <snap-l> I'll gladly pay for NC content
[20:44] <snap-l> heh. :)
[20:44] <paroneayea> I gladly pay for CC BY content even!
[20:44] <greg-g> I'll gladly pay for CC:BY content ;)
[20:44] <greg-g> hehe
[20:44] <paroneayea> I have a shelf full of blender foundation DVDs right next to me
[20:44] <snap-l> I'll gladly pay artists
[20:44] <snap-l> (and have)
[20:44] <greg-g> damn, that was going to be my follow up to (see my name on the list of sponsors to Elephant's Dream)
[20:45] <greg-g> s/to/too/
[20:45] <greg-g> hell, I've paid for public domain content (see the MusOpen thing)
[20:45] <greg-g> just saying, we all agree that paying people who make stuff is cool
[20:45] <snap-l> no doubt
[20:46] <greg-g> word
[20:46] <snap-l> I actively seek this stuff out
[20:46]  * greg-g nods
[20:46] <greg-g> you do a ton of good for the community, honestly, snap-l, with OMC
[20:46] <snap-l> (see Eclipse Phase)
[20:46] <snap-l> Thanks. :)
[20:46] <paroneayea> :)
[20:47] <greg-g> ok, I should write this email and get some other work done, my morning was filled with calls, now I have to catch up :)
[20:47] <snap-l> greg-g: Thanks for humoring me. :)
[20:47] <greg-g> but, just mention CC:BY NC and I'll be back !
[20:47] <greg-g> always
[20:47] <snap-l> paroneayea: Thanks for jumping in to the discussion. :) Good to meet the IRC version
[20:53] <paroneayea> snap-l: :D
[20:53] <paroneayea> happy to jump in
[21:32] <brousch> ColonelPanic001 snap-l: wow, she is good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gossow
[21:32] <ColonelPanic001> yeah
[21:32] <ColonelPanic001> she's not a bad growler
[21:32] <ColonelPanic001> nor a favorite, but consdering she's starting at a female voice pitch, she does well
[21:33] <snap-l> Yeah, she's definitely a good for for the band
[21:34] <snap-l> er, fit
[21:35] <brousch> snap-l: and thanks for Throng of Shoggoths. they're as close to old morbid angel as i've heard http://throngofshoggoths.bandcamp.com/album/nauseated-and-terrified-for-the-future-demo
[21:35] <brousch> i bought the album
[21:39] <snap-l> Awesome!
[21:41] <snap-l> Damn, I lost my copy in the great fuckup of 2011.
[21:41] <brousch> nothing better than HP lovecraft-inspired death metal
[21:45] <brousch> can you re-download it?
[21:45] <snap-l> No, I have to rebuy it
[21:45] <snap-l> which is kind of a PITA
[21:46] <snap-l> That's OK. Got me off my duff to pick up Freaky Mind. ;)
[21:47] <snap-l> http://synthematik.bandcamp.com/album/no-more-manifests
[21:52] <snap-l> http://outloud.fm/openmetalcast
[21:52] <brousch> oh great, i found a tag for morbid-angel-like music: sludge
[21:52] <brousch> fuckmywallet