[00:01] <Linuxsapien> have to wait for the meeting, oh well no rush :D
[00:01]  * Linuxsapien listening to some amiga mods
[00:30] <penguin42> heck I wish I knew why pa decides to change the sink for no good reason
[00:35] <Azelphur> I wish I knew why my sound continually drops out in WoW with pa :(
[00:37] <penguin42> Azelphur: Do you mean clicking or for a few seconds or drops and stays gone?
[00:37] <Azelphur> penguin42: it drops and stays gone, I have to go into sound options in WoW and change the sound device back and fourth until it comes back
[00:38] <Azelphur> usually drops out after loading screens although can drop out randomly at any time
[00:38] <penguin42> Azelphur: Try comparing the output of pactl info   when it's happy and when it's gone
[00:38] <Azelphur> will do :P
[00:44]  * hamitron yawns
[00:47] <Linuxsapien> yes I know hamitron
[00:48] <hamitron> late and bored
[00:48] <hamitron> ;)
[00:48] <Linuxsapien> it is yes
[00:48] <Linuxsapien> technically about 22 minutes later up here in scotland ;)
[00:49] <hamitron> erm, 22? ;/
[00:49] <Linuxsapien> and now ive bugger up my keyboard shortcuts.. del takes a screenshot.. eek!
[00:51] <Linuxsapien> i give up, time to idle, gnite, strangers/friends
[00:51] <hamitron> nn pien
[07:17] <czajkowski> aloha
[07:33] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning peeps!
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Light Out Of Darkness - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/23/light-out-of-darkness/
[08:23] <DJones> Morning all
[09:02] <smittix> Morning all
[09:03] <daubers> o/
[09:07] <smittix> Only just gotten round to watching Transformers last night
[09:08] <smittix> Can't believe I didn't watch it sooner. Awesome movie.
[09:08] <ubuntubhoy> quick call for help - how do I connect to a network over wifi in recovery mode ?
[09:11] <MooDoo> morning all
[09:12] <hoover> Morning all
[09:13] <czajkowski> AlanBell: http://techie-buzz.com/foss/french-government-open-source.html
[09:23]  * MooDoo thinks AlanBell should tender for it ;)
[09:25] <AlanBell> wouldn't get out of bed for something that small
[09:26] <MooDoo> hehe
[09:32] <AlanBell> joking apart 2 million euro over 3 years really doesn't buy much support at all
[09:32] <MooDoo> AlanBell: aren't you a 2 man team, or do you have other support staff too?
[09:33] <AlanBell> two of us
[09:34] <AlanBell> that contract is only going to pay salary for 10 full time employee equivalents at the very very most
[09:34] <MooDoo> hmmm 10 is not a lot for that typw of contract.
[09:35] <AlanBell> depends on what is involved, but to me the 2 million euro thing sounds like Dr Evil trying to ransom the world for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!
[09:36] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: For €2 million, I'll do 24/7 support one person for a year.
[09:37] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: but you would probably be working 24/7, i bet it would be a nightmare for one person
[09:37] <MooDoo> and practically impossible
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: Nah, if I'm supporting one person, that person has to sleep too
[09:37] <AlanBell> plus look at the number of areas it has to cover
[09:37] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: i don't think the french gov is one person ;)
[09:38] <MooDoo> AlanBell: you get the contract then tender it for a support team ;) lol
[09:38] <AlanBell> The request for support comprises 350 open source applications, used in may ICT areas. This list is five and a half pages long.
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: No, but I'm trying to show that €2m can buy a LOT of support if your needs are small enough :)
[09:38] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: tender yourself for it ;)
[09:38] <BigRedS> Well, it always buys about the same amount
[09:39] <BigRedS> roughly
[09:39] <AlanBell> http://www.osor.eu/news/fr-government-procuring-two-million-euro-worth-of-open-source-support it really doesn't add up at all
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: the Dutch government (and intelligence agency) have just approved a slightly modified version of OpenVPN for work-from-home government stuff
[09:41] <ali1234> €2M probably doesn't buy much "enterprise" support but i suspect if you took it directly to the developers you would get a lot better value for money
[09:41] <ali1234> i mean enterprise weenies wont even show up on site for less than £500
[09:42] <daubers> ali1234: That's only if you have a support contract
[09:44]  * MooDoo will clone himself a few hundred times and do it himself :)
[09:44] <AlanBell> so "the community" has to fill out an 80 page response to the tender questions, then get bad rates.
[09:45] <MooDoo> let's setup #ubuntu-uk-support-ltd :)
[09:46] <AlanBell> um no, but if people do want to do joint ventures to bid for projects then we can support that happening somehow I expect
[09:46] <ali1234> where's the list of the 350 applications?
[09:46] <AlanBell> but probably not en français
[09:47] <MooDoo> AlanBell: perhaps it's something your company could look into doing?  you tender and then get in techs to help
[09:48]  * MooDoo stops thinking out loud now :0
[09:48] <ali1234> their rtf crashed libreoffice
[09:48] <AlanBell> MooDoo: no, we would go bust by the time we got to the end of the questionaire
[09:49] <MooDoo> hehe
[09:49] <AlanBell> plus we wouldn't be able to meet the financial stability requirements
[09:49] <AlanBell> you must have 5 years of audited accounts . . .
[09:49] <AlanBell> and we are below the audit exemption
[09:49] <MooDoo> how's it working for you at the moment anyway?  got a lot of business?  </noseymodeoff>
[09:49] <AlanBell> yeah, loads of business
[09:49] <MooDoo> fab
[09:52] <AlanBell> quite a lot of Alfresco (nasty nasty java and squillions of XML config files in random places)
[09:53] <AlanBell> and a fair bit of OpenERP (nice python, but very very big application to understand)
[09:53] <MooDoo> it's libertus now isn't it? not open learning center if i remember rightly
[09:53] <AlanBell> and a bit of vtiger (PHP, it is OK)
[09:53] <AlanBell> Libertus Solutions Ltd, yes
[09:53] <czajkowski> AlanBell: thought you'd enjoy that article
[09:54] <AlanBell> czajkowski: interesting, yes
[09:54] <MooDoo> czajkowski: when he's stopped laughing he'll read the rest
[09:55] <AlanBell> will be interesting to follow that and see what happens next, I would assume Canonical will bid for it
[09:56]  * DJones hopes that the mailing isn't going to descend into a Sounder style troll fest/complaint thread
[09:57] <czajkowski> AlanBell: article coming soon from over here
[09:57] <czajkowski> multiple applications over 15 ministeries
[09:57] <czajkowski> 2 million for 3 years seems a tad stingy
[09:58] <AlanBell> it is on the face of it ridiculous
[10:06] <bigcalm> Would it be wrong to reply at the top to the Top Posting thread on the mailing list?
[10:07] <Laney> include a massive signature for good measure
[10:10] <bigcalm> Do not feed the trolls
[10:10] <bigcalm> I'm sure somebody else will do it :)
[10:17] <JamesTait> Good morning all!
[10:18] <popey> oooh ooh
[10:18] <popey> (morning)
[10:18] <MooDoo> morning popey
[10:18] <daubers> GAH!!!!!
[10:19] <daubers> If stupid recruitment agencies are going to spam me people when I'm not hiring, they could at least spell "engineering" and "label" correctly
[10:19] <daubers> And it's pointless telling me that their results for your test are amazing when YOU DON'T TELL ME WHAT THE TEST INVOLVES
[10:20] <daubers> Yes, they an spell their name correctly 90% of the time
[10:20] <daubers> grrrrrrrr
[10:20] <oimon> is this ranting hour?
[10:20] <oimon> :P

[10:20] <DJones> Don't forget the "Dear Jones" start to the email etc
[10:22] <MooDoo> damn i nearly responded to that top posting email......sigh
[10:23] <daubers> If I wasn't going to bite his head off I'd reply with a "I'm sorry, your lack of the basic grasp of communcation has meant that unfortunatley we won't be picking up your option" type email
[10:23] <MooDoo> i was going to reply with, "how many threads are going to be about top posting..BORING!!!"
[10:24] <MooDoo> i keep thinkig i have more friends with pidgin now showing all my google+ circle contacts :)
[10:25] <popey> i see nothing offensive in that thread
[10:25] <ali1234> complaining about top posting is a sure sign that you are using a deficient email client
[10:25] <MooDoo> don't think any one said there was, just about the umpteenth million thread about top posting lol
[10:25] <AlanBell> I think you should reply at the top, then copy and paste your reply to the bottom as well
[10:26] <gord> sandwich posting
[10:26] <swat___> double ended posting?
[10:26] <AlanBell> sandwich posting is the way forward
[10:26] <MooDoo> sandwich posting?
[10:26] <daubers> I think you should reply on the telephone and avoid the whole problem
[10:27] <ali1234> the way forward is to stop using email clients from 1986
[10:27] <MooDoo> all the thread needs is this - http://tumbleweed.popey.com/
[10:29] <ali1234> "mutt is the greatest mail reader ever, it works perfectly. now everyone stop top posting, using utf-8, and sending mime attachments"
[10:29] <oimon> i've been an IT dude all my life and i always top-post for work emails
[10:29] <oimon> the reason is that mailing lists and work email are different
[10:30]  * daubers just USES THE DAMN TELEPHONE!
[10:31] <BigRedS> You ... *speak* ... to the people?
[10:32] <ali1234> i turned off my voicemail because people use it like email
[10:32] <MooDoo> what is this *speak*
[10:32] <czajkowski> here's a rant.... companies who annouce releases of products but have no images for A) their company B) their products! but still want media coverage should be throttled
[10:33]  * oimon doesn't like using the phone and avoids where possible
[10:33] <MooDoo> think we need something on youtube, czajkowski's hour, for ranters everywhere :D
[10:34]  * oimon would like to rant about CUPS and hplip
[10:35] <MooDoo> #ubuntu-uk-rants
[10:37] <MooDoo> Pernig: ;)
[10:37] <Pernig> i couldn't help but look :P
[10:37] <MooDoo> heh
[10:38] <MooDoo> will keep it open for people to rant :D
[10:39] <BigRedS> Heh. Guy here is complaining that he has to wait 16 minutes to download an ISO
[10:40] <AlanBell> I used to have broadband like that too :)
[10:42] <bigcalm> :D
[10:42] <daubers> heh
[10:43] <AlanBell> at 3PM in #ubuntu-classroom there is an ask mark session
[10:43] <ali1234> what's an ask mark?
[10:43] <BigRedS> Hah
[10:43] <BigRedS> Me, on the same network
[10:43] <BigRedS> 3h33 current prediction
[10:44] <daubers> AlanBell: 3PM UK time?
[10:44] <AlanBell> ask Mark Shuttleworth questions
[10:44] <bigcalm> Troll Mark?
[10:44] <AlanBell> I think 3PM uk time
[10:45] <AlanBell> questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:46] <jennie> 	i downloaded this ubuntu-11.10-alternate-i386 checked MD5 and then burned to one more cd and still it is giving RETRY error in installation
[10:46] <daubers> jennie: At what point in the installation?
[10:47] <jennie> at 4%
[10:47] <daubers> 4% at what point? Installing the base system?
[10:47] <jennie>  yes
[10:48] <daubers> Do the installers still come with a facility to check the CD? It used to be on the boot menu of the CDs
[10:48] <daubers> Worth checking that to make sure the CD burnt ok
[10:49] <jennie> i tried 2 cds
[10:49] <jennie> this is second CD
[10:50] <daubers> Run the CD check on the disk. It will check that the disk has burnt correctly
[10:52] <jennie> cd check on the disk ?
[10:52] <jennie> where it is located
[10:52] <jennie> ?
[10:53] <daubers> When you boot your computer with the install CD it should be in the options it lists there.
[10:53] <daubers> jennie: see this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions#Ubuntu_CD_Advanced_Welcome_Page_Options
[10:53] <daubers> Not sure if it's on the alternate CD (would imagine so?)
[10:54] <jennie> daubers,I want to install ubuntu in usb drive and i do not want dual boot , so if cd aint working then can i do this , extract the ISO to usb and then install it in same USB from USB ?
[10:56] <daubers> ummm... not sure you can do that. You'd be overwriting the medium your installing from
[10:57] <daubers> urgh, you're
[10:57]  * daubers revokes own coffee privileges 
[10:57] <daubers> jennie: Are you creating the disks from windows or from linux?
[10:58] <jennie> cd disk ? i am creating from windows , power ISo
[10:59] <davmor2> morning all
[10:59] <daubers> jennie: Where in the world are you based?
[10:59] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod morning
[10:59] <popey> jennie: for what it's worth I have more success burning onto DVD than CDR
[11:00] <jennie> ohhk
[11:00] <jennie> but please tell me can i do it from USb , i had only 2 cds with me and they are not working, and i do not want to go to market agan
[11:01] <daubers> jennie: You could also request a CD from your loco team
[11:01] <davmor2> jennie: you can indeed
[11:01] <popey> ahh, yes, you can do it via USB
[11:01] <daubers> jennie: For what you want you'd want 2 USB sticks. As you won't be able to install onto the USB stick the installer is running from
[11:01] <popey> jennie: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/linux/create-a-bootable-ubuntu-usb-flash-drive-the-easy-way/
[11:01] <daubers> and I don't think there is a way to make a persistant partition in windows?
[11:01] <popey> thats totally the easiest way to do it
[11:02] <popey> daubers: i dont think she wants persistent
[11:02] <popey> just ran out of CDRs
[11:02] <daubers> popey: <jennie> daubers,I want to install ubuntu in usb drive and i do not want dual boot , so if cd aint working then can i do this , extract the ISO to usb and then install it in same USB from USB ?
[11:02] <popey> "install onto" may be misinterpreted here
[11:03] <daubers> It was more the "Install in same USB from USB"
[11:04] <MooDoo> easiest way i've found to install linux onto a usb, in windows is http://www.pendrivelinux.com/universal-usb-installer-easy-as-1-2-3/
[11:04] <daubers> MooDoo: \o/ that one will do persistant storage
[11:04] <MooDoo> yup indeedy, running linux mint of my USB :)
[11:05] <daubers> jennie: follow MooDoo's link. you want the make sure you set a persistant file. Then you can just boot straight into Ubuntu without a second installation process
[11:05] <daubers> jennie: It will want the desktop CD rather than the alternate one to do that
[11:05] <daubers> desktop iso even
[11:08] <jennie> ok thx
[11:14] <MooDoo> :D i have my uses, not many but a few
[11:27] <czajkowski> AlanBell: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/French-government-tenders-for-open-source-support-1383615.html
[11:33] <AlanBell> czajkowski: where did the 2 million euro bit come from?
[11:34] <czajkowski> AlanBell: http://www.lemondeinformatique.fr/actualites/lire-l-etat-lance-un-appel-d-offres-sur-la-maintenance-des-logiciels-libres-46661.html
[11:35] <AlanBell> "estimé est de deux millions d'euros sur trois ans" but who estimated that? a journalist?
[11:35] <davmor2> czajkowski: hello
[11:36] <MooDoo> davmor2: morning me ole china, how the devil are you?
[11:36] <czajkowski> AlanBell: I dont know dj wrote it not me
[11:37] <davmor2> MooDoo: Frustrated czajkowski won't annoy me :'(
[11:37] <MooDoo> davmor2: leave the poor lass alone then :D
[11:38] <davmor2> MooDoo: I'm good really busy but not currently as I'm waiting on Staging LP so I can continue :(
[11:38] <MooDoo> cool
[12:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Paul Mellors] Job at Heart Internet - http://paulmellors.blogspot.com/2011/11/job-at-heart-internet.html
[12:21] <oimon> guys, if amazon sell an item and then reduce the price, can i get a refund of the difference?
[12:22] <daubers> Nope
[12:24] <gord> nice, european space agency wants to release more open source software. next time i need a mars rover controller i'll just apt-get install it
[12:25] <czajkowski> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Kernel-Vulnerability-in-Ubuntu-11-10-Upgrade-Now-235857.shtml
[12:26] <oimon> amazon used to have a price drop policy 30 days after purchase
[12:26] <oimon> can't find it though
[12:28] <davmor2> czajkowski: you make it sound so dramatic
[12:29] <MooDoo> davmor2: OMG ubuntu is broken, i'm going to install windows....lol
[12:30] <davmor2> MooDoo: Windows you say, why you think that is less broken?
[12:30] <oimon> daubers: http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/amazon-price-drop-policy-get-the-difference-14113
[12:31] <gord> the ONLY solution to a broken ubuntu is to choose a *slightly* different variant of linux.. yeah. that'll solve everything
[12:31] <daubers> oimon: really?
[12:31] <ali1234> it has a much higher chance of success than reporting bugs
[12:32] <czajkowski> davmor2: clean install of 11.10 here and trackpad is disabled as default.
[12:32] <MooDoo> davmor2: don't be silly it's perfect ;)
[12:32] <AlanBell> a local user can read certain information causing a loss of privacy?? This does not appear to be a newsworthy bug.
[12:32] <MooDoo> so basically it's a problem if someone is actually in front of your pc/laptop?
[12:32] <davmor2> czajkowski: that's a feature it stops you breaking it
[12:32] <MooDoo> no i've missread it lol
[12:33] <AlanBell> if they have a user account on your laptop
[12:33] <oimon> daubers: Please note that only orders placed on or before September 1, 2008 were eligible for a price difference refund under the Post-Order Price Guarantee policy. However, we do continue to offer our Pre-order price guarantee.:(
[12:34] <davmor2> czajkowski: you don't need no stinking trackpad ;)
[12:34] <AlanBell> https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/6/24/88
[12:39] <awilkins> It's not a very scary vuln, is it
[12:39] <awilkins> I guess it's worse on a server
[12:39] <MooDoo> the world is going to end
[12:40] <awilkins> On the other hand, I already KNOW the password for the other user account on the server, because the user concerned can't remember it, so I have to
[12:41] <awilkins> And of course, we're both sudoers, as is anyone else with login rights (because they're.. sysadmins)
[12:42] <davmor2> czajkowski: on a more serious note do you find a fix for it?
[12:42] <awilkins> davmor2, Isn't that the patch thread linked from lkml above?
[12:43] <AlanBell> awilkins: two different problems, the trackpad and not very scary vuln
[12:43] <awilkins> AH.
[12:43] <awilkins> Didn't see the trackpad one
[12:43] <davmor2> awilkins: I was on about her trackpad issue :)
[12:58] <Twinkletoes> If I'm using rsa keys with ssh... is there any kind of padding inplemented by default, and where is it defined?
[13:06] <MartijnVdS> Twinkletoes: padding?
[13:06] <oimon> did you get the mail about the latest humble indie bundle? been waiting for darwinia et al to join in the fun :)
[13:07] <MartijnVdS> Twinkletoes: I assume OpenSSH (being written by the OpenBSD people) does The Right Thing
[13:07] <Twinkletoes> MartijnVdS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_%28algorithm%29#Padding_schemes
[13:07] <Twinkletoes> MartijnVdS: If that's the case, then I'm happy - which wa smy question :)
[13:08] <MartijnVdS> Twinkletoes: If you want to be really sure, you can ask on their on channel/mailing list... I think you need a crypto expert for this :)
[13:08] <Twinkletoes> MartijnVdS: Ok, will do - thank you :)
[13:08] <popey> oimon: humble bundle is losing some of its magic now it happens so often
[13:08] <oimon> popey: i think they will run out of classics soon. but the introversion games are welcome
[13:09] <oimon> the other ones lately have been halfbaked affairs
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> popey: "haugty bundle"? ;)
[13:12] <oimon> also nice to get crayon physics as i missed that in a previous bundle
[13:22] <hoover> same here, bought it mostly for crayon physics
[13:22] <awilkins> I've already got Multiwinia / Defcon, there might even be some players - it was dead the last time I looked
[13:22] <awilkins> Ooh, bonus prototypes
[13:23] <oimon> windows only
[13:23] <awilkins> I have been known to boot Windows occasionally...
[13:23] <oimon> AKA GameOS
[13:23] <diplo> Any of you guys ever played with SME server ?
[13:24] <awilkins> Yeah, I wish they DID do a cut down version of Windows targeted at playing games
[13:24] <awilkins> Other than XBox-OS
[13:25] <popey> diplo: yes, many moons ago
[13:25] <BigRedS> oimon: Wintendo, surely?
[13:25] <awilkins> The video of that city generator is really nice
[13:25] <awilkins> You can imagine it being of great use for things like Cyberrun campaigns
[13:25] <oimon> i have a problem with PES soccer 2008 on the wii...everyone has upgraded to 2011 and i can't find anyone online to play against :(
[13:25] <diplo> Having issues with Transparent proxy, don't suppose you have any insight in bypassing it ?
[13:25] <awilkins> oimon, Simple, stop playing soccer games
[13:25] <diplo> Tried official way of doing it and failing, no irc channel to talk to someone live :/
[13:25] <oimon> never have that problem with urban terror
[13:26] <oimon> football games are probably the best thing you can do with a console
[13:26] <awilkins> diplo, Use another proxy?
[13:26] <awilkins> diplo, The way I bypass the proxy at work is by opening an SSH tunnel to my router at home and using the dynamic SOCKS proxy feature
[13:26] <diplo> It's the problem with SME server awilkins its all tightly integrated, I've talked my currect employer out of using it anymore
[13:26] <diplo> An not bypassing proxy in that sense
[13:26] <diplo> ah*
[13:27] <diplo> Bypass it as in not use it, by default it sets up a transparent proxy
[13:27] <diplo> Which has issues with https://
[13:27] <awilkins> This is MS SME server?
[13:27] <diplo> And no easy way or removing disabling the proxy
[13:27] <diplo> http://contribs.org
[13:27] <diplo> Based on Centos
[13:28] <awilkins> No idea I'm afraid... I've only had light involvement with Centos, never liked it much
[13:29] <diplo> heh, I know CentOS fairly well, SME is a bit of a abomination of it imo, but it seems enough people like it :/
[13:29] <diplo> OK, How about I approach this differently, got any IPTABLES gurus in here ?
[13:30] <MooDoo> diplo: /etc/init.d/iptables stop ;)
[13:30] <diplo> http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/135422
[13:30] <hoover> depends
[13:30] <awilkins> diplo <carrier lost>
[13:31] <diplo> Want to redirect the to: from 3128 to 80 :)
[13:31] <diplo> Been years since I've done any Iptables stuff
[13:31] <diplo> heh MooDoo :P
[13:31] <diplo> Suppose I start studying now
[14:13] <Myrtti> possum yarn ihihi
[14:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Behind The Canonical Community Team - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/23/behind-the-canonical-community-team/
[14:28] <KrisDouglas> Hello, I am trying to connect to an ipsec vpn using diffie hellman 2 key exchange. Is there a VPN plugin for network manager that supports this?
[14:30] <AlanBell> KrisDouglas: the openswan one I think
[14:31] <KrisDouglas> AlanBell, I have OpenSwan installed, I will have a go. Thanks
[14:31] <bigcalm> I don't think the file manager knows about linked directories. I did 'properties' on 'file system' and it's counted 128.1 TB so far
[14:32] <bigcalm> Would be nice but I only bought a 60 GB SSD
[14:32] <davmor2> KrisDouglas: I think google will be your biggest friend here, there is strongswan, vpnc for network manager and openvpn too according to USC
[14:33] <AlanBell> oddly if I select strongswan it crashes the add vpn dialog
[14:35] <KrisDouglas> I was just about to say that AlanBell, it just crashed my VPN client
[14:35] <davmor2> AlanBell: I was just looking at network manager vpn in USC no idea what does what in reality :)
[14:35] <bigcalm> svn stat
[14:36] <AlanBell> KrisDouglas: I have a cisco one and a pptp one set up, they work fine, I have never clicked the strongswan one before
[14:36] <KrisDouglas> My OVPN works fine, this one has crashed the tool twice
[14:36] <KrisDouglas> frustrating :)
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> Whee, my new phone has been picked up by FedEx
[14:48] <bigcalm> popey: do you ever get this? "There is a problem with the sound decoder. Spotify can't play music"
[14:48] <popey> no, never
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> Let's see if they can get it from some place called "Poole" to the Netherlands in <24h ;)
[14:49] <bigcalm> Sod
[14:49] <davmor2> bigcalm: Nope I don't either, oh wait I don't use spotify :P
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: you're one of those people that buy shiny plastic discs?
[14:51] <bigcalm> popey: even on Local Files?
[14:51] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: I don't see why not
[14:52] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I love shiny plastic discs. I also have a bunch of larger black plastic discs :)
[14:52] <MartijnVdS> Also.. wut -- http://g.co/maps/xc95a
[14:52] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: No I use a real life dab radio when it dawned on me I was listening to absolute 80's more than I was my own music collection :D
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: aww but records ARE 80s ;)
[14:53] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: Yeah we have a few of those too,  the small silver ones, the small black ones and the bigger black ones
[14:54] <popey> bigcalm: i dont play local files
[14:54] <MartijnVdS> popey: never ever?
[14:54] <popey> not in spotify
[14:54] <davmor2> popey: nor do I
[15:00] <Azelphur> lol, ##linux is getting nick flooded atm, someone clearly needs to set a join limit on it :P
[15:18] <KrisDouglas> MartijnVdS, I walked that way once
[15:48] <awilkins> BAck to VPN ; anyone know if it's possible to join a Cisco VPN concentrator that insists on the Windows client and on the "no local LAN access" parameter?
[15:48] <awilkins> I've tried vpnc in the past but never got past the authentication stage
[15:49] <MartijnVdS> KrisDouglas: what, to Guernsey? :)
[15:50] <KrisDouglas> MartijnVdS, yeah, fancied a pie, that seemed like the fastest route on my phone without using buses. Turned out that it wasn't really worth it, the pie shop had closed :(
[16:03] <KrisDouglas> http://imagebin.org/185317 I will be amused infinately.
[16:04] <KrisDouglas> Infinitely
[16:04] <bigcalm> KrisDouglas: odd ball
[16:04] <KrisDouglas> http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/rage/ is going to be my distraction this afternoon :)
[16:05] <KrisDouglas> bigcalm, I feel that is exactly what popey's expression was.
[16:05] <cliftonts> hi everyone
[16:06] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, hello
[16:06] <MooDoo> http://www.vidarholen.net/~vidar/rage/132206438528295.html
[16:06] <MooDoo> lol
[16:07] <MooDoo> very good
[16:07] <KrisDouglas> MooDoo, haha
[16:07] <cliftonts> ok....
[16:07] <KrisDouglas> MooDoo, it's incredibly addictive
[16:07] <bigcalm> lol
[16:07] <MooDoo> yeah i can imagie :)
[16:07] <KrisDouglas> I find myself trawling through IRC logs for arguments
[16:08] <MooDoo> glad i log everything then :)
[16:08] <KrisDouglas> mine clear themselves
[16:08] <KrisDouglas> every week
[16:08] <KrisDouglas> from time to time I find myself searching for something I was told
[16:11] <cliftonts> I'm bored with installing ubuntu now, I've done 5 machines in a row. I think I need a new hobby. lol
[16:11] <awilkins> Shiny, VPN works for Ubuntu now
[16:11] <awilkins> I can get onto my office network
[16:11] <awilkins> Now all I have to do is configure the routing...
[16:11] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, use the OEM install mode :)
[16:11] <KrisDouglas> saves a small amount of tim
[16:11] <KrisDouglas> e
[16:12] <cliftonts> I can't on this batch because I'll need to be demoing them
[16:13] <cliftonts> does anyone have any recommendations on the minimum REALISTIC spec to run on?
[16:14] <KrisDouglas> I find anything over a single core 1.6GHz Atom and 512M RAM is usually ok
[16:15] <AlanBell> hi cliftonts
[16:16] <cliftonts> I'm finding even unity 2d sluggish on 2.8ghz dual core with 512mb, software centre gives the pc a hernia and the dash has a noticable delay
[16:16] <cliftonts> hi alan
[16:16] <KrisDouglas> usually works ok on 1.4GHz P4's with over 512M RAM well enough too
[16:16] <KrisDouglas> starts to die if you do more than one thing at once with half a gig of RAM
[16:17] <cliftonts> in fact I'm installing xubuntu on a 1.4ghz P4 with 700mb ram because it was just unusable
[16:17] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, the software centre gives my 3.4GHz quad core a hernia.
[16:17]  * AlanBell has several 1.6ghz atom computers that work well with unity 3d
[16:17] <KrisDouglas> 512M RAM is usually a little bit on the small side
[16:17] <cliftonts> very true KrisDouglas, I think it needs working on
[16:18] <gord> 512 ram is what is hurting you there
[16:18] <daubers> cliftonts: I'd suspect you're swapping lots and your HDD is the bottleneck
[16:18] <cliftonts> I'll be selling these machines at computer fairs and via my website. I think I'll look into getting some extra ram for them
[16:18] <KrisDouglas> as AlanBell said, Atom CPUs are unusually capable.
[16:19] <cliftonts> unfortunately I have to work with whatever the supplier has in stock, but I will be building new machines too
[16:19] <AlanBell> I have 1GB on the one on my desk
[16:19] <AlanBell> the kids all have at least 1GB in their computers
[16:19] <AlanBell> I have 8GB in my laptop :)
[16:19] <swat___> i have a 1.6 gig, 1gb ram atom - it struggles a little with unity
[16:19] <swat___> (either variant it seems)
[16:19] <cliftonts> mind you, I'm using xubuntu on the live disk now and it seems pretty snappy
[16:20] <AlanBell> cliftonts: have you tried the oem-config-prepare process?
[16:20] <rbsfou> Unity  2d on my aao zg5 (1.6ghz n270, 1.5 gib ram, P-SSD1800 16gib) doesn't run well :( Have xubuntu on another partition on it as a result
[16:21] <cliftonts> yes alan in the past, but I'll be using these machines to demo and I'd like to see them working before the day
[16:21] <cliftonts> I need to find the time to put all the new kit on my site too but it takes AGES!
[16:22] <rbsfou> You could always install using oem-config-prepare, add your packages, set up your /etc/skel, then boot sysresccd and take a tarball....then add the normal user account....when you want to sell, redeploy from the tarball from something like sysresccd, and run oem-config-prepare from a chroot
[16:23] <AlanBell> if you do the oem install you boot into it as the oem user and you can use it like that for as long as you like, install stuff, install binary drivers etc, then oem-config-prepare to nuke the oem user and get it ready for the first owner
[16:23] <AlanBell> and you can repeat the process
[16:23] <cliftonts> I don't think my turnaround will be great enough to warrant re-inventing the wheel
[16:24] <cliftonts> very true Alan, that's an option. I
[16:24] <cliftonts> I'll do that from now on I think
[16:24] <cliftonts> Are you the guy from Bracknell by the way?
[16:24] <AlanBell> you can demo them as the oem user
[16:24] <AlanBell> no that is alan cocks
[16:25] <cliftonts> aah, I bumped into him at the fair there when I was scouting it out
[16:25] <cliftonts> weirdly I'd been chatting to him on the mailing list the previous day without a clue where he was
[16:26] <AlanBell> he is candtalan or something like that on IRC normally
[16:26] <rbsfou> Personally i hardly ever install on hardware....usually in vmware, then remove logs and custom udev rules then take a tar and stick it back on the machine and reinstall grub
[16:26] <cliftonts> that's the one yes
[16:27] <cliftonts> rbsfou solutions like that always sound overly complicated for something that just requires sticking the CD in the drive
[16:27] <rbsfou> If you are doing lots of machines it's easier than going through the install each time
[16:28] <rbsfou> (As well as the updates and config crap)
[16:28] <cliftonts> I can't imagine I'll be doing tons of them
[16:28] <rbsfou> fair enough
[16:28] <cliftonts> if it gets too much I'll look into other options
[16:28] <cliftonts> but of course I can do other things while it installs right now
[16:29] <cliftonts> I really can't figure out why there aren't more linux retailers around
[16:30] <rbsfou> vicious circle - not many 3rd party vendors support it / make software for it....so no incentive to sell it.....Same reason why we aren't all driving electric cars (the issue with that being charging stations)
[16:31] <cliftonts> I don't know, I've been using ubuntu since 2006 and it's worlds away from where it wa
[16:31] <cliftonts> was
[16:31] <cliftonts> I think we're reaching a tipping point on that issue
[16:32] <rbsfou> Peripherals are usually a problem too....fine if someone is coming to you for everything, but if they are a windows 'power user' used to buying stuff from PC world it can get messy and they lose patience
[16:32] <cliftonts> I think what I will start doing is installing from USB, this drive is so bloody noisy!
[16:33] <cliftonts> true but I don't think that's any reason to give up
[16:33] <rbsfou> For that reason, i usually supply e.g. hp inkjets because of hplip....other printers are supported true, but i've not found any others with support for cleaning / head alignment etc
[16:33] <rbsfou> oh of course not :)
[16:33] <cliftonts> I'm hoping to bridge that gap, get people looking at computing from a different angle
[16:34] <cliftonts> but even on that one I remember banging my head against the screen trying to get my touchscreen, sound, wireless to work
[16:35] <cliftonts> now it just works, no more 'insert driver disc for USB device' 'But I've got 35 USB devices, which one?' moments, thanks miscrosoft!
[16:35] <rbsfou> Me too....I want to set up company selling cheap 'utility' pcs, sold as being web terminals and a bit of word processing....have a few users already, but nowhere near as many as i would like....hate supporting windows all the time, even seeing the odd osx would be a nice change
[16:35] <cliftonts> where are you based?
[16:36] <rbsfou> Or being asked to reinstall the driver because you dared to move the device to another port ;)
[16:36] <rbsfou> essex
[16:36] <rbsfou> u?
[16:36] <cliftonts> I'm in bucks, sound like an opportunity to you?
[16:37] <rbsfou> hmm lots of money round there for people to throw away on apple and m$ i bet though :(
[16:37] <rbsfou> my part of essex is a bit shitty so i'm hoping it works out for me round my way
[16:37] <cliftonts> perhaps but both drive me nuts! I like having 2 mouse buttons and I value my sanity
[16:38] <cliftonts> I'm counting on people appreciating the fact ubuntu works with you, not againt
[16:38] <funkyHat> The "hurr apple only has one mouse button" thing is pretty out of date now ;)
[16:39] <rbsfou> yeah all have touchpads....and for the few that have mice it's mightmouse or that awful flat thing
[16:39] <cliftonts> I'm aware of the fact I'll need to support the machines I sell and it'll be over a very wide range, so a few contacts scattered about would be nice
[16:39] <cliftonts> funkyHat, I never got along with osx, no idea why, but it's just not for me
[16:40] <rbsfou> Yeah that is an issue having different hardware....it's worth keeping a log of who ends up with what....in a better world you could keep one example of everything, so if new distro version b0rks older modules (or stuff like xorg drivers get dropped) you can be prepared
[16:40] <rbsfou> Liking the fact 12.04 will have 5yr cycle though :)
[16:42] <cliftonts> I think I can cope
[16:42] <cliftonts> so if you're going into business fancy keeping in touch?
[16:42] <DJones> From memory, there's a few people using giffgaff sims in their mobiles, if you're one of them, this might be interesting http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/23/giffgaff_outage/
[16:42] <cliftonts> I am Djones
[16:43] <funkyHat> I have a giffgaff sim in one phone but I don't really use that one so I wouldn't have noticed if it affected me
[16:43] <rbsfou> Well personally for me it'd be quite a wide range of exotic stuff so i'd need to really.....important to pick hardware carefully, eg. for older machines with no onboard video i'd have to say radeons because the nvidia binary blob being a bit of a worry
[16:44] <rbsfou> cliftonts : Yeah sure
[16:44] <cliftonts> check out where I am so far, it's still very unfinished but I think you can see where I'm headed
[16:44] <cliftonts> www.cliftonts.co.uk
[16:45] <cliftonts> and my address is sales@cliftonts.co.uk
[16:45] <rbsfou> ooh shiny....i don't have anything like that yet
[16:45] <cliftonts> lol
[16:45] <cliftonts> it's only zen cart
[16:47] <cliftonts> I went down that route because the evil banks won't let me have a credit card machine until I'm rich enough to not need to work! So I'll use the site over a mobile connection instead
[16:47] <AlanBell> cliftonts: you should probably drop a note to the trademarks people at canonical to tell them what great advocacy you are doing etc
[16:47] <AlanBell> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[16:47] <rbsfou> Well looks nice anyhoo.....i can't see anyone paying that much for a pc though....for me it's going to be refurbs all the way at minimal cost. maybe set up as a charity / cic
[16:48] <cliftonts> Already been there and done that, you know what they really don't like talking to people at all
[16:48] <AlanBell> great, yeah, they don't really respond much
[16:48] <cliftonts> my prices are matched to the computer fairs I'll be selling at so we'll see. I'd like to get the cost of aquiring the machines down though.
[16:49] <davmor2> KrisDouglas: cliftonts: USC is slow but that's due to the fact that last release was all about the new look and feature set this release they will be concentrating on improving the issues they know about, start up and db access speed are 2 of the key elements that will be improved
[16:49] <rbsfou> Yeah. My barriers are that i don't drive, and i think i would need a 'waste processing license' plus some sort of certification about data wiping and stuff
[16:50] <cliftonts> I am aware of the work being done on USC
[16:50] <funkyHat> Heh, yeah it takes about a minute to start up on my poor EeePC 900
[16:50] <davmor2> cliftonts: USC == Ubuntu Software Center
[16:51] <cliftonts> I need to look into the waste processing license but I'm purchasing my machines at the moment so that's not an issue
[16:51] <cliftonts> dvmore, I do know what USC is, thank you
[16:51] <rbsfou> Thankfully thanks to smartphones people are now quite willing to see the advantages of software being installed and updated 'in one place'
[16:51] <rbsfou> cliftonts : well i wasn't sure till he mentioned it tbh
[16:52] <cliftonts> I think I'll get back in touch with canonical again after reading those terms. Trouble is they don't seem to be terribly enthusiastic about their own product
[16:54] <rbsfou> They really need to get active with oems the way MS did, like allowing them to brand the bootssplash wallpaper etc. I know this sort of thing is a bit crappy, but it worked for ms
[16:54] <cliftonts> what they need is to respond to people like me and give us the impression that they are keen for us to further their brand
[16:55] <AlanBell> they won't be
[16:55] <cliftonts> I asked a load of questions about all the grey areas that worried me. i.e. how much can I charge for a CD. I only heard back about a couple of them.
[16:55] <rbsfou> yeah.....they do seem to be dangerously close to losing community support in some ways
[16:56] <rbsfou> It's gpl, so a 'reasonable cost of the media and fee for duplication'
[16:56] <AlanBell> don't worry about that, canonical won't be interested in you at all, well below their radar
[16:56] <rbsfou> (or words like that)
[16:56] <cliftonts> I think this whole unity storm will blow over, it happened with kde 4 and people will get used to this but nobody is pushing to get wider adoption
[16:56] <AlanBell> all you need from trademarks is some kind of acknowledgement that they don't care
[16:56] <rbsfou> I reckon a fiver is ok
[16:56] <rbsfou> Unity == A less retarded way of using Gnome 3
[16:57] <cliftonts> rbsfou, I've ordered the CDs so they look nice n shiny and I'll charge £1.50 to cover cost of CD and postage
[16:57] <cliftonts> I'm getting along ok with unity actually, although switching between several instances of one app pisses me off
[16:58] <rbsfou> KDE3 and 4 do look sort of similar though....not enough to warrant the outrage i think, the Gnome 2 > 3 transition was far more radical (not that i used kde, i try every six months or so, but can't get on with it)
[16:58] <bigcalm> xubuntu \o/
[16:58] <cliftonts> I can't get along with kde 4, I just stick with gnome
[16:59] <cliftonts> unity will be fine as long as we're not seeing the finished product, it needs more features
[17:00] <rbsfou> bigcalm : yeah agreed....not for noobs though....Sort of thinking unity on one end, a lubuntu on the other (though that does have usuability issues, but is only real option for P3 or early P4 spec)
[17:00] <cliftonts> is lubuntu lighter than xubuntu then?
[17:01] <cliftonts> I tried it but couldn't get the damn thing to even boot!
[17:01] <rbsfou> oh hell yes.....on my aao it boots in 5 seconds :)
[17:01] <cliftonts> hmm, worth another look...
[17:01] <rbsfou> well ok 5 till x fires up, say 10 to a 'full' desktop
[17:02] <cliftonts> oh yes, this xubuntu install will do nicely, perfect for this machine
[17:02] <rbsfou> you should really use vmware or similar to try stuff out, much easier than hardware.....though agreed you don't see how well it performs / driver support until you do
[17:02] <cliftonts> one question though
[17:03] <cliftonts> why is it that you choose download updates during the install yet once installed the first thing it does it tell you there are 242 updates to do?
[17:03] <popey> thats updates to the installer
[17:03] <popey> not updates to ubuntu itself
[17:03] <popey> to fix any problems that the installer might have
[17:04] <cliftonts> aah, that makes more sense!
[17:05] <rbsfou> I think it might get the packages though as it was rather quick when being asked....i'd have to check /var/cache/apt/archives to be sure after first boot
[17:06] <funkyHat> [~rbsfou] It's gpl, so a 'reasonable cost of the media and fee for duplication'
[17:06] <funkyHat> rbsfou: the GPL has no restrictions that sound anything like that
[17:07] <cliftonts> however funky, I have always understood that to be the case
[17:07] <Laney> he is probably talking about providing the source
[17:07] <Laney> and I doubt the whole of the CD is GPL :-)
[17:07] <rbsfou> funkyHat : oh....not sure where i read that....might have been back in the days of slackware and walnutcreek
[17:07] <funkyHat> cliftonts: you could charge £100 for a CD if you wanted to
[17:08] <funkyHat> Yes, the thing about reasonable cost is to do with distribution of source
[17:08] <cliftonts> well I don't think anyone would buy a CD you can get of the ubuntu website for under £5 unless you matched the price
[17:08] <Laney> that's beside the point, you are free to charge whatever you like for it
[17:09] <rbsfou> Laney : I think it actually is.....there are some firmware blobs but i think they are in the repos, and stuff like ubuntu-restricted-extras (e.g. the ms ttf fonts) definitely aren't gpl
[17:09] <cliftonts> true
[17:09] <funkyHat> rbsfou: there are other free software licenses ⢁)
[17:10] <funkyHat> Some software on the ubuntu CD is undoubtedly BSD licensed, there are probably others too
[17:10] <rbsfou> funkyHat : good point. Apache's http server, obviously
[17:10] <funkyHat> I don't think that's on the desktop CD but yes, httpd is Apache License
[17:11] <rbsfou> To be honest i think nowadays the linux cd thing is a dead loss. There are a few windows 'power users' who might use it, but unforunately i think these are the sort of individuals who will 'blame linux' when something doesn't 'just work'. Us geeks just grab isos and use usb sticks or vms nowadays
[17:12] <AlanBell> it is nice to give someone a CD along with it pre-installed on a computer as a "recovery CD"
[17:12] <cliftonts> I'll be offering to install it for them as well, rather than just dumping them in at the deep end!
[17:12] <rbsfou> Also, the new version every 6 months / only updates for 2 years thing is offputting, i don't want to 'waste' a cd on that
[17:13] <rbsfou> I might burn off an LTS for my own use though
[17:13] <cliftonts> I'm sure the best option for oem installs will always be the lts
[17:13] <funkyHat> CDs cost what... 7 or 8 pence
[17:13] <AlanBell> rbsfou: you can have a load of free LoCo CDs from me if you are distributing them
[17:14] <cliftonts> I was offered a load at postage cost, unfortunately just after I forked out £20 for some! lol
[17:14] <rbsfou> AlanBell : This is something i would like to do, but i think it would use a script in sysrescd to unpack a tarball and reinstall grub.....that way you are preserving your oem customizations (like skel, package choice)......and most people just want to hit 'Yes' to 'make it work again'
[17:14] <AlanBell> I will be dropping some round to Alan Cocks at some point soon
[17:15] <rbsfou> Alan Bell : Cox? Is this some sort of twisted variant of the 'no more aol cd's' antic?
[17:15] <cliftonts> what?
[17:16] <AlanBell> Alan Cox is a kernel developer from Wales, Alan Cocks is from Bracknell and does the computer fairs
[17:16] <cliftonts> aah ok
[17:16] <AlanBell> Alan Bell is me, Alan Lord is TheOpenSourcerer, Alan Pope is popey
[17:16] <awilkins> rbsfou, The other thing is, that bootable CDs might become totally unworkable or at least more difficult on a Windows 8 badged machine because of Secure Boot
[17:16] <rbsfou> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL#Direct_marketing_of_disks (original site is now squatted)
[17:16] <davmor2> too many alans
[17:16] <cliftonts> it'll be interesting working along side him, they'll think we're starting to take over!
[17:16] <AlanBell> resistance is futile you will be assimilated
[17:16] <popey> E-NOTENOUGHALANS
[17:17] <MooDoo> to many davmor2's ;)
[17:17] <rbsfou> AlanBell : Ahh that makes more sense.....i had heard of Cox obviously but not you or the others
[17:17]  * AlanBell is shocked
[17:17] <MooDoo> not heard of the alans?  cough splutter
[17:17] <MooDoo> gobsmacked!
[17:17] <MooDoo> ;)
[17:17] <rbsfou> AlanBell : First time on IRC
[17:17] <AlanBell> do you not know who I am !?!?!
[17:17] <awilkins> Does Wubi make bootable USB thumbs yet?
[17:18] <AlanBell> :)
[17:18] <MooDoo> AlanBell: TheOpenSourcerer popey = LEGENDS nuff said
[17:18] <MooDoo> heehee
[17:18] <davmor2> AlanBell: infamy infamy they've all got it in for me
[17:18] <rbsfou> MooDoo : ahh ok... people with commit access and stuff i guess
[17:19] <MooDoo> rbsfou: commit access to what?
[17:19]  * MooDoo has perhaps missed a lot of the conversation :D
[17:19] <MooDoo> rbsfou: they are just well know in the ubuntu community :)
[17:20] <davmor2> MooDoo: Are you saying the alans are feet or hips saying they are leg ends?
[17:20] <rbsfou> MooDoo : dunno, websites? debian source repos? oic.......been using linux since 1999 and i'm ashamed to say this is my first time on IRC. Filed a few bugs here and there but the process to do that is confusing. Got loads of ideas on suggestions to be made, e.g. to the LXDE team, but as i'm a n00b no idea on how to do that
[17:21] <popey> Welcome
[17:21] <MooDoo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell
[17:22] <MooDoo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanPope
[17:22] <davmor2> awilkins: Wubi has a size limit put on it by default so that is why you can't do a usb stick as the all the file does is turn the media into an iso and then runs the standard install
[17:22] <popey> ooo that needs updating
[17:23] <davmor2> s/as the all/ as all
[17:23] <rbsfou> Do any of you guys do Fosdem or anything? My partner is involved in the postgres community, and he's going next year and said i should come with
[17:23] <MooDoo> why can't i find TheOpenSourcerer ubuntu wiki page :(
[17:23] <cliftonts> right, it's been nice chatting but I have to go
[17:23] <MooDoo> later cliftonts
[17:24] <cliftonts> I have a date with a new bathroom suite...bizzarely
[17:24] <rbsfou> ok cliftonts, nice chatting to another potential oem :)
[17:24] <MooDoo> rbsfou: we do this :) = http://ubuntu-uk.org/happy-hour/
[17:24] <rbsfou> if canonical recognized us that is
[17:24] <davmor2> awilkins: does that help at all?
[17:24] <MooDoo> rbsfou: are you aware of this site ? http://ubuntu-uk.org/
[17:25] <cliftonts> rbsfou get in touch and let's see if we can support each other
[17:25] <cliftonts> night everyone
[17:25] <rbsfou> MooDoo : Yeah listened to the podcast a couple times and left a message on the voip voicemail about getting rid of old kernels once
[17:26] <MooDoo> cool :D
[17:26] <rbsfou> MooDoo : yeah i should get involved more and stuff, pretty sure i'm good for some stuff, though i'm not programmer
[17:27] <MooDoo> rbsfou: neither am i, so that's nothing to worry about, just hang out and chat :) i'm sure there is aother stuff you can get involved in if you wish
[17:27] <MooDoo> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/get-involved
[17:27] <MooDoo> take a look at that :D
[17:28] <awilkins> davmor2, Naah, I meant, if Wubi will install a captive install in a loop file in a Windows file system, will it also produce a USB thumb you could boot - kind of a 1-stop-shop for transition to Ubuntu from Windows
[17:28] <MooDoo> brb all
[17:28] <awilkins> I suppose you could boot the Wubi install of Ubuntu, then use that to write a USB key, then install it... again
[17:29] <davmor2> awilkins: Why would you not just use the usb key to do that with captive enabled?
[17:33] <awilkins> Maybe I should actually use Wubi before speculating about it. Just wondered if it did a sort of "Would you like to a) install UBuntu inside Windows b) Trash Windows and install Ubuntu in it's place c) Make a bootable USB stick
[17:37] <davmor2> awilkins: so there is work in place to make it install into a real partition but it hasn't been worked on actively for a while and there is no need to produce a USB stick fullstop
[17:37] <funkyHat> I've never been keen on Wubi
[17:38] <funkyHat> I think it's quite clever, but not very sensible
[17:38] <davmor2> funkyHat: why so?
[17:42] <funkyHat> davmor2: well it's more prone to problems than a regular install, because the filesystem is stored in a loop file on a windows FS
[17:42] <funkyHat> And I don't think it's made clear that installing using wubi is any different to a normal install, which could lead to confusion (though I haven't looked at the wubi installer for ages so maybe that's changed)
[17:45] <davmor2> funkyHat: Well we have less issues as it goes on. THe biggest issue was grub which is now resolved, as for the warning there is a perfectly good explanation in the menu before wubi is started I think you'll find :)
[17:47] <funkyHat> A way to convert a wubi install to a regular separate partition install would be fancy
[17:49] <davmor2> funkyHat: it's in place now but it is a bunch of shell scripts that they needed to convert over into something pretty
[17:50] <rbsfou> I think it might solve some problems if every now and then ubuntu was somehow able to set the ntfs dirty bit, so a boot into windows would inititate an ntfs check.....for it's own benefit!
[17:53] <funkyHat> Well parted at least can see the dirty bit (and will refuse to resize a dirty NTFS partition), so that's probably possible
[17:54] <funkyHat> It would be nice if the error message from the ubuntu installer was a bit more helpful when that happened actually ⢁D
[17:56] <funkyHat> (unless that's changed very recently)
[17:59] <rbsfou> I wish ntfsprogs (iirc) was able to do a thorough ntfsck, sadly seems only windows chkdsk is 'good enough'
[18:00] <rbsfou> Not sure if the binary is actually called ntfsck, but last time i tried it it DID set the dirty bit, so maybe the installer should do that and prompt the user to boot windows to do the check
[18:01] <rbsfou> That's the sort of thing i would end up putting on brainstorm....and would get voted up...and nothing would happen :(
[18:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> MooDoo: I don't have one I think... I have this though: https://launchpad.net/~theopensourcerer. And this: https://plus.google.com/u/0/104060033182234025482/about. And this: http://uk.linkedin.com/in/alanlord - How many more do you need? ;-)
[18:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Google Tashout - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/11/23/google-tashout/
[18:22] <bigcalm> A video I've just loaded on youtube has 301 views with 629 likes - how does that work?
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: it stops counting at 301
[18:23] <bigcalm> :)
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: because then it's a "busy" video and they update it less often (not live)
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> Hmm
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> What does the "Sort" printer dialog option do?
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> It changes the page icons next to it, but it's not clear to me what it means
[19:31] <MartijnVdS> it might be "collate"
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> but if that's true, the translation is poo :)
[19:33] <awilkins> Sounds like Collate
[19:34] <awilkins> It's Collate in the en-GB translation at least
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: Dutch translation is poo then :)
[19:38] <awilkins> Sjort?
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> no, "Sorteren"
[19:38] <awilkins> (my dutch is poo too)
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: "Sjort" would be "pulls" ("he pulls") ;)
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: yes also in THAT sense
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> (well not really, only if he doesn't pull...)
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> *ahem* family-friendly channel )
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> :)
[19:41] <awilkins> Sufficiently oblique, I think you'd get away with that :)
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> Good >:)
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> ooh my Galaxy Nexus is in Feltham now
[19:45] <awilkins> Hmm. I rather like my wife's Android phone but I'd feel disloyal to my N900
[19:46] <awilkins> Although the prospect of being able to actually develop for it is nice - my Java is much stronger than my C languages
[19:47] <MartijnVdS> My lack of experience with C is mostly because of its lack of garbage collection :)
[19:48] <MartijnVdS> and the headaches that gave me
[19:48] <MartijnVdS> <- Perl, Python coder
[19:49] <awilkins> I tried C when I was a teenager but those were the days of no internet.
[19:49] <MartijnVdS> exactly
[19:49] <MartijnVdS> I had my book.. and my headaches
[19:49] <awilkins> Getting a compiler meant I had to catch a bus, walk 2 miles into an industrial estate, and pick up a stack of floppies from a Public Domain software distributor.
[19:50] <awilkins> I never got the API reference manuals for the Amiga OS, so I could never do any of the cool stuff I wanted to ; lead to a lack of motivation.
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> I remember reading a "How to program your AdLib" document
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> and not understanding it
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> and then re-reading it a few years ago, thinking "Was I _that_ dense?"
[19:51] <awilkins> So... BASIC (ZX81, BBC Micro, Spectrum) , a very small amount of 6502 and Z80 machine code, then a gap of 5 years at university, then VB3, VB6, Javascript, C#, Java, Python
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> also, the guy who wrote it wrote the Linux drivers for the early Creative sound blasters :)
[19:52] <awilkins> Currently Java is my bread and butter, I dabbled in Python when I was hacking around with bzr for an internal project.
[19:53] <awilkins> And hopefully my days of being a VB6 guru are reserved for my juicy retirement (it's the COBOL of the future, don'tcha know...)
[19:53] <awilkins> I like C# as a language, it's nice to do little GUI tools in, unlike Java.
[19:54] <awilkins> I'm afraid Perl gives me a headache...
[19:54] <awilkins> But I don't see a lot of it
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> :)
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> There's good perl and bad perl
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> The "Declare 500 variables all in upper case, don't use strict mode"-Perl of the 90s is LONG behind most people :)
[19:57] <czajkowski> dear software center you really are out to drive me crazy http://twitpic.com/7ii4cb/full
[19:57] <czajkowski> davmor2: can I stab you
[19:58] <awilkins> Heh, when you see Perl scripts that are a clock (yes, the clock was literally made of the perl script, which self-edited to show the time... a proper grandfather long case clock with hands...)
[19:58] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: actually, the guy who wrote the AdLib docs I had later wrote _OSS_
[19:59] <awilkins> Anyone know who's doing the hiring for this Ubuntu One on Windows client job?
[20:00] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, That's some serious audio chops...
[20:00] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: yes, this was the early 90s :)
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> oh wow, this also still exists: http://www.phatcode.net/downloads.php?id=170
[20:05] <MartijnVdS> Apparently, I'm still in some QuickBASIC FAQ that got transferred from FidoNET to Usenet :)
[20:06] <penguin42> anyone any good with understanding really odd martian packet messages?
[20:06] <awilkins> Sorry, I'm only good with venusian packets
[20:07] <penguin42> damn, I've only got martians
[20:08] <penguin42> martian source 91.189.89.144 from 192.168.122.77, on dev eth2  on my NAT box, that 91.x.x.x is a canonical com address, and the .77 is a VM running PP - and I think I get it when the PP vm closes down
[20:09] <penguin42> actually, that's an even odder thought - why is the 122.77 packet even getting to the NAT box...
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> what's PP?
[20:14] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Precise
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: "how is it getting there" = why the kernel calls it "martian"
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> it should not be there
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> What are you using to virtualize?
[20:14] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Oh indeed, I'm just trying to figure out how it got there
[20:15] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: So that message is on my NAT box, on a machine on the inside of that running Oneiric I have KVM running the Precise guest
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: check out the martians using tcpdump/wireshark
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> check the mac addresses
[20:16] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: The internal IP range is 192.168.66.x, the 192.168.122.x is the KVM local nat range
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> so the Oneiric box is leaking?
[20:16] <davmor2> czajkowski: feel free but only if I can tie your hair in pony tails and nail gun them to the ceiling
[20:18] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: The MACs are the mac of the NAT box and the Oneiric host; yeh I think it's the Oneiric host leaking; I have a theory
[20:19] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I think it might be that there is an open connection between the VM and that Canonical box (update check? Ubuntu 1??) while it is shutdown, then when it disappears any packets that come back in from outside end up going through the NAT box and to the Oneiric box, the Oneiric box doesn't have a route for them any more since the VM is dead, so it routes them to the default route which is back to the NAT box ???
[20:20] <MartijnVdS> shouldn't happen
[20:20] <MartijnVdS> well
[20:21] <MartijnVdS> you might want to tell iptables to not do this.. or some option in /proc/sys/net :)
[20:21] <penguin42> (Does anyone know what mistletoe.canonical.com serves?)
[20:22] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Ah well which bit of it - I've not figured out if this is new with PP VM guests or has happened longer, this is the 1st time I noticed it
[20:22] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: you say it forwards too many packets
[20:23] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: you can check by analyzing the martians using tcpdump/wireshark
[20:23] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Well, I'm not sure it does forward too many
[20:23] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: If there is an open connection and the host disappears I'm not sure what it's actually supposed to do
[20:24] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: no but ip_forward is on, I guess
[20:24] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: and it NATs packets for the VMs
[20:24] <MartijnVdS> (or maybe not, it might just route them)
[20:25] <penguin42> it's supposed to NAT them I think
[20:25] <MartijnVdS> I don't know what mistletoe.canonical is -- I'd ask one of their admins :)
[20:25] <MartijnVdS> or blame popey
[20:25] <popey> hah
[20:26] <popey> i have no idea what mistletoe.canonical.com is, but i guess its something ubuntu one related?
[20:27] <bigcalm> Ellipsis?
[20:27] <penguin42> ... ?
[20:28] <MartijnVdS> popey: nah, thats "kwaimuk.canonical.com" (according to lsof)
[20:30] <penguin42> ah, it's done mulberry this time
[20:30] <awilkins> They sound dangerously ... Christmassy
[20:31] <jutnux> Christmas :D
[20:31] <penguin42> awilkins: Have you noticed how few christmas penguins there are this year in shops?
[20:31] <MartijnVdS> Maybe oneiric has some kind of Christmas easter egg?
[20:31] <MartijnVdS> and it's pre-downloading the necessities
[20:31] <awilkins> TBH, I've never noticed any christmas penguins in any shop
[20:31]  * penguin42 doubts you can get any easter eggs at christmas
[20:31] <jutnux> The only shop I go to is the corner shop
[20:31] <penguin42> awilkins: Well keep your eyes open!
[20:31] <jutnux> Get the rest of my things off of the web
[20:32] <awilkins> http://mistletoe.canonical.com/ just serves up three periods
[20:33] <jutnux> awilkins: Something is clearly coming ;) Perhaps a rick roll?
[20:33] <MartijnVdS> by the community team?
[20:33]  * penguin42 can see from a capture on the VM host that there are a set of FIN, ACK from the VM to mulberry this time during shutdown with a bunch of data, none of which means much
[20:34] <awilkins> mistletoe is running lucid, apart from that I have no idea.
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: and on the host that detects martians?
[20:34] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Not done the capture on there yet, it's a bit trickier
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: tcpdump -w some_file
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: then copyie the file over and open it in wireshark :)
[20:35] <MartijnVdS> copy*
[20:35] <penguin42> nod
[20:37] <penguin42> will the kernel let the martian get as far as tcpdump?
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> yes
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> it also captures packets that will be dropped later by iptables
[20:38] <penguin42> hmm it may take a few minutes - apt-get update on a P90 is not screamingly fast
[20:39] <Linuxsapien> does anyone know where the keyboard preferences are stored?
[20:41] <jutnux> Zomg
[20:41] <jutnux> Nerdgasm.
[20:41] <jutnux> Desura is out on Linux <33333333333
[20:42] <MartijnVdS> who?
[20:42] <awilkins> Steam-alike
[20:42] <jutnux> Indie game steam thing
[20:42] <MartijnVdS> ah, Ubuntu Software Centre-alike?
[20:42] <jutnux> Kind of
[20:43] <jutnux> Will take screenie
[20:43] <jutnux> http://r.jutnux.co.uk/u1JTex
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> I think I installed it on WIndows. It wanted me to make an account.
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> So I removed it
[20:43] <jutnux> Don't like making accounts then?
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> I have too many already
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> I like to keep the number down
[20:44] <jutnux> Same
[20:44] <jutnux> So many emails
[20:44] <jutnux> I think I have like 17 email accounts
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> I have two. One for work, one for home.
[20:50] <penguin42> hmm I think I have 2 at work, 1 gmail address for home (unused mostly) and a domain for home
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> I use my domain for home mail, hosted at Google
[20:58] <jacobw> hosted at google?
[20:58] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: google.com/a
[20:59] <jacobw> cool :)
[21:00] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I don't actually see the martian in my tcpdump; I'll look again another time
[21:08] <jacobw> does anyone know of way to force android's music player to refresh its library?
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: in the settings -> applications bit, clear data
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: after killing it and its services
[21:20] <bigcalm> mgdm: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454
[21:23] <jacobw> MartijnVdS: thank you :)
[21:24] <jutnux> http://www.howtogeek.com/geekers/up/sshot4ecba27220325.jpg
[21:36] <ori> hi
[21:54] <bigcalm> New UUPC?  To the intertubes!
[22:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Ubuntu UK Podcast] S04E20  Run to the Hills - http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2011/11/23/s04e20-run-to-the-hills/
[22:16] <ubuntubhoy> can anyone tell me how to connect to a wireless network from recovery command prompt with networking ?
[22:33] <Azelphur> Seeker`: you about? :p
[22:36] <Seeker`> Azelphur: yus
[22:36] <Azelphur> Seeker`: care to replicate a graphics bug in wow and take a screenshot so I can add it to my list of screenshots to try and make blizzard believe it's not addon related? :P
[22:37] <Seeker`> errr, not at my desktop atm. What is the bug?
[22:37] <Seeker`> and to prove it isn't addon realted, disable all of your addons
[22:37] <Azelphur> move your viewport, go to uldum or throne of the tides, receive trippy graphics
[22:37] <Azelphur> yea, people have done that but then they just talk about graphics drivers and other things
[22:37] <Seeker`> 'move your viewport'?
[22:38] <Azelphur> you know the addon packs you can get that move the visible game area and leave an empty area to place buttons, chat box, etc
[22:38] <Seeker`> ah, that'll be an adddon bug then :P
[22:38] <Seeker`> Its an addon that does that, not an 'official' WoW feature
[22:38] <Azelphur> Seeker`: not really, if you remove all addons and just call the single WoW api function for moving the viewport with /script, it still happens
[22:39] <Azelphur> so it's a WoW api function that's broken, addon authors can do nothing to fix it
[22:39] <Seeker`> what is the script?
[22:39] <Azelphur>  /script WorldFrame:SetPoint("BOTTOMRIGHT", 0,200);
[22:39] <jacobw> ubuntubhoy: yes
[22:40] <Seeker`> hmm, playing with WorldFrame and UIParent tends to do weird things
[22:40] <ubuntubhoy> any chance of sharing :D
[22:40] <Seeker`> especially to other addons
[22:41] <Azelphur> Seeker`: basically after moving the frame, certain elements in specific maps render relative to the WoW window size and not the WorldFrame size
[22:41] <jacobw> ubuntubhoy: sudo ifconfig wlan0 up; sudo iwconfig wlan0 essid your_essid; wpa_passphrase your_essid your_key > foo; sudo wpa_supplicant -Dwext -i wlan0 -c $PWD/foo &; sleep 30; sudo dhclient
[22:41] <Seeker`> Azelphur: yeah, thats what i'd expect
[22:42] <Azelphur> Seeker`: worked fine when I used to do it back in vanilla, from forum posts I've read it's a 4.0.1 regression
[22:42] <jacobw> ubuntubhoy: assuming your wireless device is wlan0 and your network uses wpa2psk
[22:43] <jacobw> ubuntubhoy: and dhcp
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> yeah
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> cheers mate
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> my precise install has went tits up, and this netbook has no ethernet porrt
[22:44] <ubuntubhoy> -r
[22:45] <jacobw> no ethernet? odd.
[22:45] <ubuntubhoy> Dell Duo
[22:45] <ubuntubhoy> only got 3 USB, and a headphone socket
[22:45] <jacobw> i see
[22:47] <ubuntubhoy> its nice enough, just not really cut out for dev builds
[22:48] <jacobw> i like netbooks, though i'm glad mine has a ethernet port
[22:49] <jacobw> i'd really like a netbook with a thinkpad style 'trackpoint'
[22:50] <jacobw> or 'isometric joystick' according to wikipedia :s
[22:51] <ubuntubhoy> never used one, first netbook was an Aspire One.
[22:51] <ubuntubhoy> served me well till last month, now my youngest has it
[22:52] <ubuntubhoy> was a great little machine
[22:52] <ubuntubhoy> the idea of getting the Duo was for the touchscreen
[22:54] <jacobw> i'm not convinced that touchscreen are useful
[22:54] <jacobw> its hard to develop muscle memory for virtual keyboards
[22:54] <ubuntubhoy> its handy for sitting on the couch with the screen flipped
[22:55] <ubuntubhoy> browsing, checking on social networks etc
[22:55] <ubuntubhoy> even for viewing movies and stuff
[22:56] <jacobw> i imagine its great for anything that doesn't involve typing or window management
[22:57] <ubuntubhoy> window management aint so bad with shell
[22:57] <ubuntubhoy> or E Tablet mode
[22:57] <ubuntubhoy> even Unity kind of suits a touchscreen
[22:57] <jacobw> i think gnome-shell would be ideal on a tablet
[22:57] <jacobw> ha, well its supposed to :p
[22:57] <ubuntubhoy> yeah thats my WM of choice
[22:58] <ubuntubhoy> but I also use Bodhi for E
[22:58] <ubuntubhoy> thats quite nice
[22:58] <jacobw> :)
[23:01] <jacobw> i'm glad you've brought bohdi to my attention, it looks ideal for my dad's netbook
[23:02] <jacobw> is your wireless working now?
[23:03] <ubuntubhoy> not tried yet, its this machine
[23:03] <ubuntubhoy> will re-boot in a mo
[23:03] <jacobw> ah ok
[23:05] <jacobw> if your comfortable using screen, its quite useful to run wpa_supplicant in a screen to detach and leave its working or reattach it if isn't working
[23:05] <jacobw> anyway
[23:05]  * jacobw → bed
[23:06] <ubuntubhoy> cya, and thanx again
[23:47] <szymon_g> hi
[23:48] <szymon_g> which additional package i have to install to make unity's search capability usefull? it doesn't search files located in my $HOME
[23:48] <szymon_g> ubuntu 11.10