[09:22] <andrejz> hello kelemengabor
[09:22] <kelemengabor> good morning andrejz
[09:23] <andrejz> Is translator's call on for today?
[09:24] <kelemengabor> in theory yes :)
[09:24] <kelemengabor> right, dpm?
[09:25] <andrejz> I was thinking about upstream export which you wrote about yesterday, kelemen
[09:25] <andrejz> I think it would be best to try and devise a solution which would work for more projects not just docs
[09:26] <andrejz> Do you have time to discuss it?
[09:27] <andrejz> Do you know if it's possible to extract .po files from ppa's ?
[09:28] <dpm> kelemengabor, hey, yes. Let me reply to the thread to confirm and set up the calendar
[09:35] <kelemengabor> andrejz: I have no experience with ppas, so no idea
[09:36] <kelemengabor> actually, I'd be happy if we could set up a clone of gnome-help and set it to share translations with ubuntu-docs, so that what is committed into upstream git, could appear in u-d as well automagically
[09:36] <kelemengabor> for now at least :)
[09:48] <andrejz> what i was thinking (or hoping for) is more general solution i just don't know if it's possible
[09:50] <andrejz> My idea was :"in cooperation with upstream KDE and Gnome translations develop a script which will pick up specific .po files from weekly PPAs (if they there are inside) and then commit them into KDE or GNoem
[09:50] <andrejz> It would have to be made in a way each language team could choose whether they want ubuntu translations to overwrite existing translations, be just suggestions or don't want it
[09:51] <andrejz> I think that would be the ultimate solution which would make everyone happy
[09:51] <andrejz> just don't know how difficult it is to do it
[09:51] <andrejz> what do you guys think, dpm, klemengabor
[09:52] <andrejz> *kelemengabor
[09:58] <kelemengabor> andrejz: we already have bzr mirrors of upstream projects, like https://launchpad.net/evolution
[09:58] <kelemengabor> enabling translations of these would be probably easier
[09:59] <kelemengabor> but, the qestion is, do upstreams want this?
[09:59] <kelemengabor> erm, question
[10:00] <kelemengabor> I mean, in Gnome, there is a Vertimus workflow, which is just fine for dealing with po files, and many teams use that
[10:00] <kelemengabor> mixing LP in this needs a little more thinking
[10:00] <andrejz> well that's the idea that each language team can choose what they want to do with translations (either accept them or have them as suggestions) so it shouldn't be a problem
[10:01] <andrejz> we shouldn't try to force this on any language team. it should be optional
[10:02] <andrejz> of course it would also needed to be discussed with Gnoem and KDE translations coordinator teams
[10:02] <andrejz> i am just wondering if you think it's a good idea
[10:02] <kelemengabor> on the other hand, at least one bugreport is asking for an online interface for translating GNOME: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=662388
[10:02] <ubot4> Gnome bug 662388 in general "Interface for on-line translation" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed]
[10:07] <kelemengabor> in the long term, probably yes, neither Gnome, nor KDE has currently an online translation interface
[10:07] <andrejz> i think it would be a very nice feature to have
[10:07] <kelemengabor> however, from their POV, other solutions than LP could come into the picture, like Pootle or Transifex
[10:08] <andrejz> well the idea is to get the translations made by ubuntu translators into upstream
[10:09] <andrejz> so translators don't have to worry about this issues
[10:09] <andrejz> for example i notice slovenian ubuntu team gets many more new members than gnome
[10:09] <andrejz> because ubuntu is more known
[10:10] <andrejz> we try to shift some of the newcomers to gnome
[10:10] <andrejz> but we are ot being very succesfull because people prefer to work via online interface
[10:10] <andrejz> i suppose it's similar for many other teams
[10:11] <andrejz> so it makes sense to export our translation goodness to kde and gnome too
[10:11] <andrejz> for example in slovenian KDE covereage is much better in Kubuntu then KDE
[10:12] <andrejz> because our KDE team is dormant
[10:12] <andrejz> I am sure they would be very happy if some of the translations came back to KDE automatically
[10:13] <andrejz> now they all need to be manually exported and commited (also checked for diff) which can be quite tedious
[10:14] <kelemengabor> on the other hand, I don't know if LP is capable of doing per-language translation export and commit, so implementing this could be difficult
[10:16] <andrejz> maybe this could be implemented on their side if it's easier
[10:17] <kelemengabor> and then there is the question of up-to-dateness: Ubuntu packages are from the "stable" release, while upstream follows the unstable branches (and prefers committing there)
[10:20] <andrejz> yes that can be an issue, since pot files are not necessarily the same
[10:21] <kelemengabor> so this would make sense only if they could use LP as an online interface to the unstable branch, which means either LP should be their preferred way of submitting translations for all the languages, or we should ask LP developers to spend a lot of time on implementing features, like interaction between LP and damned-lies, for example. Also, in the former case, I'd expect some resistance from upstream projects as a whole towa
[10:23] <andrejz> hm, yes. Some people hate whatever comes (or doesn't come) out of ubuntu
[10:25] <andrejz> kelemengabor but couldn't be most of the code resued (code to import translations to launchpad from upstream used also for the other direction
[10:27] <kelemengabor> andrejz: and IIRC, to be able to translate anything in LP, you should license your translations under the BSDL, while these upstreams work under GPL. That may be a problem too... most translators are just like "yeah, sure, it is free software, use however you like" - but not all of them ;)
[10:28] <kelemengabor> about code, ask danilos :)
[10:28] <andrejz> either way i think it's worth spending some time thinking about how to do this, since benefit could be enormous
[10:28] <andrejz> oh yeah, licence
[10:28] <kelemengabor> but I suspect what his answer will be ;)
[10:28] <andrejz> but that's not a problem i guess
[10:29] <andrejz> if something is licenced under BSDL then it can go to a GPL project
[10:30] <andrejz> same like OO.org and LO. Code can go from OO.org to LO but not the other way around
[10:31] <andrejz> I was thinking to send an email to gnome-i18n and kde-i18n ML and check if there is any genuine interest
[10:33] <andrejz> if there is some positive response we can discus it further. if not we forget it. what do you think, kelemengabor?
[10:33] <kelemengabor> that's true, but what if they decide LP is good enough for them to host their online translations, with the limitation that everything should go through it, because it cannot turn the translation export on/off for single languages? The solution would be to add this feature, but until we have that, the switch is blocked by this chain...
[10:33] <kelemengabor> sure, a mail or two cannot hurt
[10:35] <kelemengabor> I'd only take care to propose an "online translation interface to use" and not "pushing down Ubuntu translations on their throats" :)
[10:36] <andrejz> hm, as far as i can see in PPA you have things such as language-pack-gnome-hu
[10:36] <andrejz> so probably all gnoem translations for hungerian language are there
[10:36] <andrejz> so we probably don't need per language export
[10:37] <kelemengabor> nope. only for those modules which are distributed in the main repo
[10:37] <kelemengabor> there is a lot more in upstream git
[10:39] <andrejz> i think exporting those in main repo should be sufficient initially
[11:43] <dpm> andrejz, let's discuss it in the call, this is a topic that needs careful discussion
[11:56] <andrejz> dpm is it possible to experiment with g+ hangout for the call?
[11:56] <andrejz> recently i started to get occasional memory leaks in skype, so it's not always stable for me
[11:57] <dpm> andrejz, I'm open to it, kelemengabor had some concerns about using G+, though (which I respect)
[11:58] <dpm> I'll have to fix my skype myself, as it's not been working for a few weeks (I can hear sound, but cannot transmit it)
[11:59] <andrejz> aha, ok. we can investigate a little bit
[12:06] <kelemengabor> dpm: nowadays I have a g+ account too, so you can find me there :)
[12:06] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, ok, so let's switch to g+, then :)
[12:06] <andrejz> good
[12:07] <dpm> will save me from having to fix my skype :)
[12:07] <dpm> and allow the calls to be public for translators to join in
[12:10] <dpm> kelemengabor, what's your g+ url? There's quite a lot of Gabor Kelemen's out there :)
[12:11] <kelemengabor> https://plus.google.com/u/0/117194932353487735021/
[12:11] <kelemengabor> I guess this is it
[12:15] <andrejz> added
[13:36] <dpm> kelemengabor1, I mentioned at UDs, but I didn't take any steps: I think we should reenable the ubuntu-help packages in Ubuntu. While the docs team recommends translating upstream, it is equally valid to translate in Ubuntu through message sharing, and also, if the docs package is not in Ubuntu, it does not count towards the stats I generate automatically. Also the angry guy on G+ was mentioning that he went to https://translations.launchpad.net/ub
[13:36] <dpm> untu/oneiric/+source/ubuntu-docs and couldn't find any info, and I agree that it's confusing. I'm going to reenable them for oneiric for now. Do you foresee any issue in doing that?
[13:38] <kelemengabor1> well, for the short term, okay. but in the long term, I think it would be better to change the statistics generator script ;)
[13:52] <dpm> kelemengabor1, it's not that I don't want to change the script (although I don't like having exceptions, we've got enough of them), I just cannot get that data. The stats we get from LP are only for the Ubuntu packages. What issues do you see in the long term, though? I think having the docs in Ubuntu gives them way more visibility
[13:55] <kelemengabor1> dpm: I'm afraid we will get questions and complaints like: which one should I translate? why are there two places to translate? why is this string untranslated, despite being 100% done with the translation?
[13:55] <kelemengabor1> all the time...
[13:57] <andrejz> I think there should be some sort of explanation about this in the header
[13:58] <andrejz> or a link to the explanation, just like there is a link to translation guidelines
[13:58] <dpm> kelemengabor1, why should the docs be different than any other package we do translation sharing with? With sharing one can translate on either side. Besides, I don't want to take out every package of Ubuntu we do sharing with (e.g. apport, usb-creator, etc.) We'll have the same situation with every Launchpad upstream
[14:04] <andrejz> maybe a link like faq which answers all these questiosn
[14:06] <dpm> that's a good idea, we definitely need an FAQ for sharing (e.g. where should I translate?). I'm not too sure about adding the link to the FAQ to the header, but an explanation in the header on where developers prefer translating might be an option
[14:19] <kelemengabor1> dpm: because the workflow there is different. I don't want to take it out either, but the packaged versions pot file is not so uptodate, as the upstream one. Do you remember bug #814822 ? :)
[14:20] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 814822 in yelp-tools (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) ""Ubuntu Desktop Guide" message is not translated (affects: 3) (dups: 1) (heat: 17)" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/814822
[14:23] <dpm> kelemengabor1, hm, yeah, but that does not have to do with whether the translations are exposed or not (granted, it can help with reducing the confusion, but that was not the cause of the issue). At least after string freeze, both templates should be in sync, and I believe the docs team should ensure that is the case.
[14:35] <andrejz> dpm it's unfortunate reality templates often change even deep after string freeze
[14:36] <andrejz> for example for kubuntu docs changed about 3 days before the release and a couple of days after translation deadline
[14:38] <andrejz> since the past releases have shown we are unable to convince developers to submit final templates at the right time it's better to assume this will happen and try to prepare for that
[14:39] <dpm> andrejz, yeah I see your point, but that's another discussion. The point I'm trying to make is that the upstream and downstream template should (at least after freeze) stay in sync. In that sense, it does not matter if it happens after freeze as long as it happens on both sides.
[14:41] <andrejz> i agree they should stay the same. The questions is will they?
[14:43] <andrejz> what can we do to make sure they are in sync?
[14:47] <dpm> after freeze, there should not be any modifications to the upstream .pot file. However, we know that often freeze breaks are needed, and my proposal to the docs team would be to ensure a package upload immediately follows any upstream .pot change
[14:48] <dpm> now that might still mean a delay of a day or so, but translators should know about it at least, as a notification e-mail should follow any freeze break
[14:49] <andrejz> ok, sounds reasonable
[15:03] <dpm> In any case, updated https://plus.google.com/u/1/104550365344856778857/posts/ELAYPthqToL - let's hope this does not turn into a flamefest ;)
[15:45] <sianis> hi there!
[15:46] <sianis> we have a little problem with this translation export branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/ddtp-ubuntu/ddtp-precise
[15:46] <sianis> It isn't up to date, could somebody see what is the problem? It is still in the initial state
[16:05] <dpm> hi sianis, what do you mean in the initial state?
[16:06] <kelemengabor1> dpm: it has only the "initial branch" revision, and no exports yet
[16:07] <kelemengabor1> and even that is empty
[16:07] <dpm> ah, mvo asked me about it a few days ago, and I thought it had been sorted after he imported the translations. Let me have another look.
[16:12] <dpm> sianis, it seems that the translations are now exported to http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mvo/ddtp-ubuntu/ddtp-pot-precise/files
[16:49] <sianis> dpm: so this will be te final place of exported po files?
[16:50] <dpm> sianis, yes. Is that an issue? I.e. is this a change in how translations were exported in other series?
[16:55] <sianis> dpm: I don't know is this an issue. for lucid maverick natty oneiric I can download the po file with bzr branch "lp:~mvo/ddtp-ubuntu/ddtp-$release" where values of $release id picekd from the previous list
[16:56] <sianis> but it changed for precise to bzr branch "lp:~mvo/ddtp-ubuntu/ddtp-pot-precise"
[16:56] <dpm> sianis, I think that's no longer the case, even for older series. For lucid it's also ddtp-pot-precise ->  https://launchpad.net/ddtp-ubuntu/lucid I guess mvo changed the branch names in all series. You might want to check it out with him on #ubuntu-devel
[16:57] <dpm> err, I meant ddtp-pot-lucid :)
[16:58] <sianis> dpm: okay, in this case there no problem, thank you
[16:59] <dpm> you're welcome :)
[17:00] <dpm> kelemengabor, andrejz, hangout?
[17:01] <andrejz> sure
[17:01] <kelemengabor> at last, my net connection is restored :D
[17:01] <kelemengabor> a moment
[17:02] <dpm> :)
[17:02] <dpm> andrejz, I can only hear noise on your end
[17:03] <kelemengabor> install plugin...
[17:03] <dpm> ok :)
[17:06] <dpm> andrejz, we'll wait for a couple of minutes to see if you can sort it out
[17:06] <andrejz> ok
[17:15] <dpm> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-translations-roundtable
[17:19] <kelemengabor> dpm: perhaps you could try to turn off your video, maybe its too much for andrejs machine
[17:22] <kelemengabor> so, where were we?
[17:22] <andrejz> maybe somehting is my worng with the g+ plugin or something
[17:22] <andrejz> can we quickly try skype
[17:22] <andrejz> what i was saying where template priorities
[17:22] <andrejz> should be arranged before opening the translations
[17:24] <andrejz> we had a lot of templates which weren't assigned priority
[17:25] <dpm> andrejz, unfortunately skype is not working for me :(
[17:25] <andrejz> ok
[17:25] <dpm> andrejz, do you want to join us to listen in?
[17:25] <dpm> and if you bring up the topic on IRC we can discuss it
[17:25] <andrejz> ok
[17:32] <dpm> andrejz, you dropped from the call
[17:34] <andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+lang/sl/
[18:24] <dpm> andrejz, kelemengabor, the notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings/2011-11-24
[18:25] <andrejz> great
[18:25] <dpm> I'll send an e-mail to the translators list tomorrow explaining a bit more about the meetings, now it's time to call it a day
[18:25] <kelemengabor> thanks!
[18:25] <dpm> no worries, see you all tomorrow!
[18:26] <andrejz> maybe we should update this page a bit
[18:26] <andrejz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings/