[06:00] <pitti> Good morning
[06:01] <pitti> Sweetshark: upload with new version number; but as we have new libraries in precise it's not guaranteed to build
[06:01] <pitti> Sweetshark: (but building against these new libs is the very point of this)
[07:55] <didrocks> good morning
[07:55] <pitti> hey didrocks
[08:44] <rodrigo_> morning
[08:44] <pitti> hey rodrigo_
[08:45] <rodrigo_> hi pitti
[08:51] <pitti> didrocks: where can I change the dash's "listen to music" button to open RB instead of banshee?
[08:52] <didrocks> pitti: if your default music player is rhythmbox, it shold works
[08:52] <didrocks> should*
[08:52] <pitti> didrocks: well, what constitutes the "default" player?
[08:52] <pitti> on today's images, when I click that button nothing happens
[08:52] <didrocks> hum, weird
[08:52] <pitti> actually, it does, it opens totem
[08:52] <didrocks> what do you have in g-c-c ?
[08:52] <didrocks> for sys info/default app
[08:53] <didrocks> (for "Music")
[08:53] <didrocks> hey rodrigo_
[08:53] <pitti> didrocks: ah, it says "Movie Player"
[08:54] <pitti> didrocks: so I'll fix it in control-center's default gsettings?
[08:54] <didrocks> pitti: yeah, that should work, if not, just poke me :)
[08:54] <pitti> eww -- Calendar:  [ gedit ]
[08:54] <rodrigo_> hi didrocks
[08:54] <didrocks> pitti: I guess that unity needs to be restarted though
[08:54] <pitti> looks like a nice thing to fix for A1
[08:54] <pitti> (isn't it great that we can deal with _this_ class of bugs for alpha-1? :-) )
[08:55]  * pitti hugs https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Daily%20ISOs/
[08:59] <didrocks> waow, looking nice.
[09:03] <TheMuso> I'm not usually on the dev release this early. I feel this cycle is going to be a good one for general pollishing. :)
[09:04] <TheMuso> Alpha 1 is often the absolute earliest I upgrade...
[09:05] <pitti> TheMuso: we've been quite serious about "never break precise" so far
[09:05] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[09:05] <pitti> we had two cases of apt-get dist-upgrade failing for a particular package, but these cleared up with the next upgrade and didn't break anything important
[09:06] <pitti> I don't remember http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/precise_probs.html ever looking that great before a1 :)
[09:35] <seb128> hey there
[09:41] <rodrigo_> hey seb128
[09:42] <rodrigo_> mvo, around?
[09:45] <mvo> rodrigo_: yes
[09:45] <seb128> hey rodrigo_
[09:45] <seb128> hey mvo
[09:45] <seb128> how is everybody?
[09:45] <rodrigo_> mvo, did you see my updated merge proposal on Friday? -> https://code.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/system-service/new-interfaces/+merge/83308
[09:46] <mvo> rodrigo_: I did, I have a look in a few minutes (left early friday)
[09:46] <mvo> hey seb128!
[09:46] <rodrigo_> mvo, ok, just wanted to make sure you saw it, so no hurry :)
[09:46] <mvo> thanks!
[09:47] <seb128> mvo, left early on friday? slacker!
[09:47] <seb128> ;-)
[09:47] <rodrigo_> seb128, I sent him my branch at 11PM Friday, and he was still working at that time, thru the weekend afaik :)
[09:48] <seb128> lol
[09:48] <seb128> yeah yeah, I believe you :p
[09:48] <rodrigo_> :)
[09:48] <seb128> rodrigo_, don't worry I'm just teasing mvo, he called me slacker for having friday off ;-)
[09:48] <rodrigo_> heh
[09:53] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[09:54] <seb128> hey chrisccoulson, how are you?
[09:54] <pitti> hey seb128, morning chrisccoulson; how are you?
[09:54] <seb128> pitti, hey, I'm good thanks, how are you?
[09:54] <mvo> seb128: *pfff* ;)
[09:55] <pitti> seb128: quite fine, thanks! had a nice weekend, a friend from Zurich came to visit
[09:55] <chrisccoulson> hi seb128, pitti. i'm good thanks, how are you?
[09:55] <pitti> my former flatmate from study times
[09:57] <rodrigo_> hi chrisccoulson
[09:57] <seb128> pitti, nice! ;-) you had fun I guess then
[09:57] <pitti> yeah
[09:58] <chrisccoulson> hi rodrigo_ :)
[10:03] <Sweetshark> Moin everyone!
[10:05] <pitti> hallo Sweetshark, wie gehts?
[10:05] <Sweetshark> pitti: The 3.4.4-0u1 upload for oneiric is strange. People reported the l10n issue to be fixed in the ppa, but unfixed in the final upload. but AFAIK they are identical modulo the changelog change.
[10:06] <Sweetshark> pitti: Pretty good. I was at the Luebecker Weihnachtsmarkt on the weekend.
[10:06] <pitti> we also had Stollen yesterday for the first time \o/
[10:08] <seb128> pitti, the first time? or the first time this year?
[10:09] <pitti> seb128: this year, of course
[10:09]  * pitti has had stollen every year, of course
[10:09] <seb128> pitti, oh, ok, you almost scared me ;-)
[10:09] <pitti> after all, Dresden makes the best one :)
[10:10] <seb128> yummy, stollen!
[10:10] <seb128> lol
[10:11] <pitti> seb128: honestly -- you can buy Stollen from Dresden in Munich and London, but there's no foreign Stollen whatsoever in Dresden :)
[10:12] <seb128> pitti, I need to check where the stollen we by at the supermarket here come from, it could be coming from dresden ;-)
[10:15] <Sweetshark> seb128: or Luebeck (if it is one with massepain)
[10:16] <seb128> is that something germans fight about? "who is making the best stollen"? ;-)
[10:16] <pitti> all the time
[10:16] <chrisccoulson> mmmmmmm, stollen
[10:16] <pitti> yesterday I argued with my wife which bakery from Dresden is better
[10:16] <chrisccoulson> there is stollen at the christmas market in birmingham
[10:17] <pitti> but a lot of stollen is rather dry, I don't like that
[10:17] <pitti> if it isn't really humid and has two tons of butter in it, it can't be good!
[10:18] <chrisccoulson> heh
[10:21] <Sweetshark> seb128: well, Dresden only has AMD and Luebeck has the "Buddenbrooks" otherwise these cities offer very little starting points for regional patriotism apart from holiday bakery. ;)
[10:21] <pitti> yeah, we ruined our UNESCO world heritage status by building that silly bridge :(
[10:22] <Sweetshark> seb128: and "Luebecker Marzipan" actually has a french wikipedia entry, that has got to count for something.
[10:25] <seb128> ;-)
[10:33] <caribou> morning
[10:33] <caribou> does that jockey-text statement on Maverick rings a bell to someone ?
[10:33] <caribou> "DEBUG: nvidia_current is blacklisted, so not treating as enabled"
[10:33] <caribou> "DEBUG: nvidia_current is blacklisted, so not treating as enabled"
[10:36] <ogra_> pitti, FYI https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-November/254682.html ...
[10:39] <seb128> ogra_, you still read ubuntu-users?
[10:39] <ogra_> seb128, someone has to :)
[10:39] <ogra_> popey, and cjwatson do as well
[10:39] <seb128> do you read forums as well? ;-)
[10:40] <seb128> (I regularly have a look to those nowadays, interesting sometimes)
[10:40] <pitti> err, I wasn't trying to make it difficult; the package was unbuildable and uninstallable
[10:40] <ogra_> i never read forums in my life :)
[10:40] <ogra_> pitti, yeah, but that doesnt seem to have come across
[10:41] <seb128> ogra_, some people just like to complain, it's nothing to do with Canonical, gnome-panel3 just doesn't make possible to build gtk2 applets
[10:41] <seb128> it's a GNOME upstream thing
[10:41] <seb128> ogra_, the guy should have got that, Debian did the same and Debian doesn't have anything to do with Canonical
[10:42] <ogra_> seb128, yes, but currently one of the big things on ubuntu-users is to tell people to switch to mint because canonical ignores its users
[10:42] <seb128> ogra_, well, they will have the exact same issue on the new mint
[10:42] <ogra_> such a mail is just putting more oil on that fire
[10:42] <ogra_> they wont, because they wouldnt bother to try xfce :P
[10:42] <seb128> ogra_, or in fedora or whatsoever
[10:42] <ogra_> they only use xfce to get the gnome2 feeling back
[10:43] <ogra_> which mint will fake for them on top of G3
[10:43] <pitti> it's not like we wouldn't have lucid or natty out there..
[10:43] <seb128> or gnome-session-fallback in Oneiric
[10:43] <seb128> they can still use gnome-panel there for a gnome2 feeling
[10:43] <seb128> no need to use xfce
[10:43] <ogra_> dont tell me
[10:44] <ogra_> gnome-session-fallback is different
[10:44] <seb128> ogra_, could you reply to this email saying that it's just that gnome-panel is on gtk3 now and that gtk2 and gtk3 can't be mixed and that comes from GNOME upstream and will be true in any distro?
[10:44] <ogra_> (no idea if the mint stuff inst different either, but people seem to thnk it isnt)
[10:44] <seb128> ogra_, somebody needs to make xfapplet use gtk3
[10:45] <ogra_> will do
[10:45] <seb128> ogra_, thanks
[10:45] <ogra_> with all that mint hyping and canonical bashing for the desktop it would probably make sense to have one desktop team member taking a look from time to time though
[10:46] <pitti> ogra_: mint uses GTK3 just as everybody else, so the XFCE applet won't work there either
[10:46] <ogra_> its after all our biggest mailing list
[10:46] <pitti> they have some GNOME 2 look-alike themes, though
[10:46] <ogra_> pitti, as i said above, they wouldnt bother to use xfce on mint, simply because their overlay fakes gnnome2 good enough
[10:46] <pitti> yeah
[12:34] <rodrigo_> need to buy some food and then lunch, so bbl
[12:52] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm, eating mince pies in november isn't good
[13:09] <pitti> rodrigo_: nice work!
[13:11] <seb128> chrisccoulson, not sure I ever got mince pie, seems like something worth trying ;-)
[13:22] <ogra_> *especially* in the cold part of the year :)
[13:22] <ogra_> cleaning your sinis etc :)
[13:22] <ogra_> *sinus
[13:24] <pitti> mvo, rodrigo_: since today or so, apt-get update and control-center sysinfo time out with
[13:24] <pitti> Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.TimedOut: Activation of org.freedesktop.PackageKit timed out
[13:24] <pitti> or c-c with
[13:24] <pitti> (gnome-control-center:4692): info-cc-panel-WARNING **: Unable to get PackageKit proxy object
[13:25] <pitti> I do have the "packagekit" package installed
[13:25] <pitti> is that known?
[13:25] <mvo> hm, could be /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20packagekit but I'm not sure why this times out
[13:25] <pitti> *should* I have PK installed?
[13:26] <pitti> mvo: right, likely
[13:26] <pitti> $ /usr/bin/dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.freedesktop.PackageKit --type=method_call /org/freedesktop/PackageKit org.freedesktop.PackageKit.StateHasChanged string:'cache-update'
[13:26] <pitti> has the same problem
[13:26] <pitti> ugh, ahd I have 6 packagekitd processes running
[13:27] <pitti> mvo: would you mind checking if you get http://paste.ubuntu.com/752463/ as well?
[13:28] <pitti> indeed we got a new PK release 20 h ago
[13:29] <pitti> rodrigo, mvo: anyway, seems to be a PK problem, not an apt/c-c one, so ignore me
[13:41] <pitti> didrocks: finally getting back to the dash music player problem
[13:41] <pitti> didrocks: actually, having totem as the default music/video player when you click on an .mp3 is wanted, as you don't want to automatically import that into your library
[13:41] <didrocks> pitti: ah, so, changing it in the g-c-c fixed it?
[13:41] <didrocks> indeed
[13:42] <pitti> it's not in g-c-c itself, I'm currently digging where it's set
[13:42] <pitti> something similar to shared-mime-info
[13:42] <pitti> it doesn't seem to be in gsettings
[13:42] <didrocks> pitti: hum, maybe we have something in unity to override it
[13:42] <didrocks> pitti: if you let me some time, I can have a look
[13:42] <seb128> pitti, what are you trying to figure?
[13:42] <pitti> seb128: currently the "listen to music" button in the dash opens totem
[13:43] <pitti> I figure it should open RB
[13:43] <seb128> pitti, check .local/share/applications/mimeapps.list
[13:43] <pitti> c-c's info panel shows "totem" as the music/video handler, which seems ok to me
[13:43] <pitti> seb128: that's on a live system
[13:43] <pitti> same on my system, though
[13:43] <Sweetshark> pitti: I just debdiffed 3.4.4-0ubuntu1 and 3.4.4-0ubuntu1~ppa1 and the only difference is the qt-scrollbar patch. However https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/873702/comments/28 suggests the ppa version to be good, while the released one is buggy.
[13:43] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 873702 in libreoffice "some function names in Calc appear in english others in local language (mixed up) " [Medium,Fix committed]
[13:44] <seb128> pitti, well if totem is selected in g-c-c that seems normal it's being used in the dash?
[13:44] <pitti> seb128: hm, I was quite sure that it opened banshee in oneiric
[13:44] <seb128> pitti, well do you have banshee installed?
[13:44] <pitti> Sweetshark: that's really strange; has this been confirmed by someone else?
[13:44] <pitti> seb128: no, it's not in the live system any more
[13:45] <seb128> pitti, you probably want to edit /usr/share/applications/defaults.list in desktop-file-utils and banshee->rhythmbox then
[13:45] <pitti> ah, d-f-u, thanks!
[13:45] <seb128> pitti, yw
[13:45] <seb128> that's the default mimetypes associations list
[13:46] <Sweetshark> pitti: that the fix is in the ppa version: Yes, I confirmed that myself.
[13:47] <Sweetshark> pitti: that its broken in the oneiric one: yes, multiple people report that on the bug.
[13:48] <pitti> Sweetshark: we don't strip libo, unless it's actually using .po files foor that
[13:49] <Sweetshark> pitti: possibly this is a sideeffect of our libreoffice/libreoffice-l10n split? something like building these source packages on different buildds causing this.
[13:52] <pitti> Sweetshark: but the PPA is certainly split as well?
[13:52] <Sweetshark> pitti: yes, but maybe both packages build on the same buildd?
[13:52]  * Sweetshark checks
[13:52] <pitti> how can that be relevant?
[13:52] <pitti> Sweetshark: also, that's a lot less likely for PPAs (20 buildds) than for Ubuntu (5 buildds)
[13:54] <pitti> seb128: hm, in the past we switched that from totem->banshee; I'll switch it back, but it still doesn't explain how to make the dash call RB then; I'll do some RTFC of the dash
[13:54] <seb128> pitti, well, I guess the dash just call the default ogg handler
[13:55] <pitti> likely
[13:56] <Sweetshark> pitti: It could be relevant, if the ids for the build get different between both packages. After all, using the l10n for another build is not an supported scenario upstream (not even something anyone working upstream would consider anyone would ever do)
[13:56] <pitti> ./plugins/unityshell/src/PlacesHomeView.cpp:  CreateShortcutFromMime("audio/x-vorbis+ogg", _("Listen to Music"), _music_alternatives);
[13:56] <pitti> seb128, didrocks: ^ seems like it
[13:56] <seb128> pitti, indeed
[13:56] <pitti> actually
[13:56] <seb128> pitti, GNOME does it the same way
[13:56] <pitti>   _music_alternatives.push_back("banshee-1");
[13:56] <pitti>   _music_alternatives.push_back("rhythmbox");
[13:56] <pitti>   _music_alternatives.push_back("totem");
[13:56] <pitti>   _music_alternatives.push_back("vlc");
[13:57] <pitti> ah, but that's only done if the MIME type handler doesn't exist
[13:57] <pitti> didrocks: but I heard that these buttons will go away anyway, right?
[13:57] <didrocks> pitti: yes, they will
[13:58] <pitti> didrocks: ok, so no need to waste time on that then
[13:58] <didrocks> should not, indeed :)
[13:59] <seb128> didrocks, do you know if the unity launcher would be fine listing in its config some .desktop which are set on NoDisplay=true?
[13:59] <didrocks> seb128: hum, it has the "invisible launcher icons", but not sure if it's mapped correctly by bamf
[13:59] <didrocks> seb128: why do you want to do that?
[14:00] <seb128> didrocks, because our special nautilus .desktop for unity leads to have nautilus listed twice in the application lens
[14:00] <seb128> i.e bug #891784
[14:00] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 891784 in hundredpapercuts "Nautilus appears twice in the Ubuntu Unity dash" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891784
[14:01] <seb128> didrocks, once as "files" (the upstream desktop) and one with the user directory icon (which is what we use in the launcher)
[14:01] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, I know about that one
[14:01] <didrocks> not sure it will play with bamf
[14:01] <seb128> ok, I will ignore it for now then
[14:01] <didrocks> seb128: adding to my TODO, will have a test
[14:01] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[14:01] <didrocks> yw
[14:02] <Sweetshark> pitti: IIRC you wanted me to create a "3.4.4-0ubuntu2 (oneiric)" package which I uploaded to chinstrap, but it wasnt uploaded anywhere AFAI can see. Should that simply be deleted now? I would then do a fresh "3.4.4-0ubuntu2 (precise)" package, which can be packborted to oneiric. Or how do you want that?
[14:03] <Sweetshark> oh, food delivery!
[14:03]  * Sweetshark is off for lunch.
[14:03] <dobey> seb128: why not just not ship the upstream one?
[14:04] <pitti> Sweetshark: you mean s/oneiric/precise/?
[14:05] <pitti> Sweetshark: a precise upload would be nice indeed, but now I need to check wit ogra if it's still ok to do today (alpha-1 around the corner)
[14:05] <pitti> it'll build a while on arm
[14:05] <pitti> I guess we better move that to Friday
[14:05] <seb128> dobey, because I guess gnome-shell or some other stuff might use it
[14:05] <ogra_> either that or we need to mangle the seeds
[14:05] <ogra_> i'm fine with either
[14:06] <ogra_> its A1 after all as long as it boots and the installer works somewhat, the arm team is happy
[14:07] <dobey> seb128: patch it instead of shipping a second version then?
[14:08] <seb128> dobey, yeah, I guess we could do that
[14:09] <seb128> dobey, one issue I think was upgrades
[14:09] <pitti> dobey: hey Rodney, how are you? FYI, current precise builds ship RB only, so the way is clear for a GTK3 music store
[14:09] <seb128> like the user config has a references to the old name
[14:09] <dobey> seb128: also, i am happy to get the avahi changes into debian; but i have no idea how to do that exactly
[14:09] <dobey> seb128: yeah; same problem we had in u1 i guess
[14:10] <seb128> dobey, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Bugs
[14:10] <dobey> pitti: i'm good, thanks. and you? we'll be getting the rb store working soon
[14:10] <ogra_> infinity, do you think the archive skew fix could handle libreoffice building while we release A1 ? theoretically it shouldnt bother us if it still builds on thu. should it ?
[14:10] <seb128> dobey, i.e use submittodebian
[14:10] <pitti> dobey: quite fine, thanks!
[14:11] <dobey> seb128: does it only submit changes from the last change set? there are some ubuntu specific patches in avahi which i guess we don't want to submit to debian?
[14:12] <infinity> ogra_: The archive will be fine.  I'm still not entirely convinced that apt doesn't suffer some minor issues with it.  Haven't had a chance to dig deeper.
[14:12] <seb128> dobey, it does debdiff between versions, but you can open a bug manually with the diff from the merge request
[14:12] <ogra_> well, might be a goood opportunity for a hardcore test
[14:13] <ogra_> though it would cost us A1 if it fails ... might be a bit risky
[14:13] <dobey> seb128: ok, thanks; i'll try to do that today
[14:13] <seb128> dobey, http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting
[14:14] <seb128> dobey, it's basically "send an email to submit@bugs.debian.org" with some lines with infos for the bug tracker "Package:" "Version:" etc
[14:14] <dobey> seb128: right; i guess reportbug does that though too
[14:14] <seb128> dobey, reportbug can be confusing, I think it does try to send a mail using the local mta, that might not work, I usually just copy the output into an email with my mailer
[14:15] <dobey> ok
[14:15] <Laney> put "smtphost your.smtp.host.here" in ~/.reportbugrc
[14:17] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[14:17] <Laney> np
[17:07] <pitti> good night everyone!
[17:07] <seb128> 'night pitti
[17:45] <seif> seb128, can u send me a list of default apps for ubuntu
[17:45] <seif> this way i can finish the plugins and patches for them to push into zeitgeist per default
[17:45] <seif> ?
[17:46] <seb128> seif, you can look at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20111128/precise-desktop-amd64.manifest for example
[17:46] <seif> seb128, thanks
[17:46] <seb128> seif, it lists what is contained on the CD
[17:47] <seif> brb
[17:47] <seif> somehow my mouse is not responding
[17:47] <seif> wtd
[17:47] <seif> i mean r
[17:59] <didrocks> good night everyone, will fix my laptop now
[18:07] <mfisch> stgraber: got time for a question on my review?
[18:12] <stgraber> mfisch: sure
[18:12] <stgraber> mfisch: you'll have to give me a link to it though, I went through a good 50 or so of these :)
[18:16] <seif> seb128, ok so most is covered
[18:17] <seb128> great
[18:17] <seif> i just need to work on libreoffice, shotwell and revisit rhythmbox
[18:18] <seif> also nautilus could be patched to tell us when something was copied around
[18:18] <seif> or moved
[19:53] <GunnarHj> seb128: Thanks for jumping in the discussion in #control-center.
[19:53] <seb128> GunnarHj, yw
[19:54] <GunnarHj> Do you know if GNOME use the fredesktop a-s version or the Debian one?
[19:55] <dobey> a-s?
[19:55] <GunnarHj> seb128: ^
[19:55] <GunnarHj> dobey: accountsservice
[19:56] <seb128> GunnarHj, no upstream rely on a distro specific version, so GNOME uses the freedesktop version
[19:56] <seb128> i.e without patch
[19:56] <GunnarHj> seb128: Ok, I see.
[19:57] <seb128> GunnarHj, what mclasen was saying is basically that he doesn't see the point because GNOME already has a gsetting key for what you need
[19:57] <GunnarHj> seb128: Yeah, I realize that.
[19:57] <seb128> GunnarHj, the question then is to know if they really intend the service as cross desktop or if they host it on fdo but see it as a GNOME service
[19:58] <seb128> either way having the reply to that would be useful ;-)
[19:58] <GunnarHj> seb128: Right. Wasn't aware of that it's basically only GNOME people behind accountsservice.
[19:59] <seb128> GunnarHj, it has been written by fedora,GNOME people, I don't think anyone out of GNOME is using it
[19:59] <GunnarHj> seb128: Aha.
[20:02] <GunnarHj> seb128: Setting language via PAM and regional formats via gsettings would be unconvenient for us, since the LANG variable affects both and due to the need to handle the migration from ~/.profile.
[20:04] <seb128> GunnarHj, well what mclasen was saying I think is that the info you need is already in gsettings so you could read it from there rather than having to query accountsservice
[20:09] <GunnarHj> seb128: Yes... but GNOME has not a ~/.profile history. It makes little sense to me to handle language and regional formats in different places.
[20:10] <seb128> GunnarHj, well I doubt GNOME is wanting to use legacy files to store their settings
[20:11] <GunnarHj> seb128: Ok, unlike me you know the 'politics' involved here. :)
[20:11] <seb128> indeed ;-)
[20:14] <GunnarHj> seb128: I have started some work with the PAM idea in mind. https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu/precise/accountsservice/lang-fix/+merge/82505
[20:14] <GunnarHj> seb128: Maybe we should stop talking now, and involve Martin in this discussion.
[20:18] <seb128> re.
[20:18] <desrt> seb128: greetings.
[20:18] <seb128> GunnarHj, ok, well that's not orthogonal to what GNOME is doing
[20:18] <seb128> hey desrt, how are you?
[20:19] <desrt> decent.
[20:19] <desrt> running into any difficulties?
[20:19] <seb128> desrt, you mean? with GNOME?
[20:19] <desrt> ya
[20:19] <seb128> desrt, not really, mclasen had to run so we didn't manage to have a proper discussion
[20:20] <desrt> i didn't see that earlier.  what was it about?
[20:20] <seb128> desrt, basically GunnarHj want to get an interface added to accountsservice and mclasen replied "why, we already store that in gsettings"
[20:20] <seb128> desrt, it was on #control-center
[20:21] <seb128> desrt, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/752925/
[20:23] <seb128> desrt, so it basically comes down to whether accountsservice is on fdo as a real cross desktop component or if it's just pretending and is in fact made to serve GNOME and not consider other desktop requirements (either is fine, it's just better if they state which one it is)
[20:23] <desrt> seb128: so same problem as always :)
[20:24] <seb128> desrt, well usually we have that discussion about i.e gnome-control-center which is a GNOME thing
[20:24] <seb128> desrt, there they hosted the service on freedesktop, but I wonder why if they consider it being there only to adress GNOME needs
[20:25] <seb128> desrt, we somewhat raised the same issue when robert_ancell started using it in lightdm, the KDE guys never heard about it before
[20:27] <desrt> hum
[20:27] <desrt> to be honest, the regional setting thing has never sat well with me
[20:27] <dobey> it's probably a "this should be on fdo because we think it would be nice if KDE used it, but meh"
[20:27] <desrt> since it seems to fly in the face of how glibc (POSIX?) wants to do this...
[20:27] <desrt> not that i'm particularly fond of POSIX in this regard
[20:27] <seb128> the locales and region settings is harder that it should be for sure ;-)
[20:28] <desrt> the idea of doing en_CA type thing is completely bloody broken
[20:28] <desrt> for messages, ya... okay
[20:28] <dobey> en_ISS
[20:29] <desrt> but as soon as you start talking about things like date/time formatting, number formats, even monetary formats... it's clearly a totally broken way to consider these things
[20:29] <dobey> how does it work out, if your region changes every 5 minutes?
[20:29] <desrt> dobey: i hope you like to login/logout a lot?
[20:29] <dobey> desrt: need to EVA to change the settings?
[20:30] <desrt> even in cases where i don't want it to change
[20:30] <desrt> but i'm slightly non-boring in some way or another...
[20:30] <desrt> i have to go start setting individual LC_ category environment variables
[20:30] <desrt> and they're not always as granular as i'd prefer
[20:30] <desrt> like if i want canadian date formatting but the month names rendered in german... i'm basically completely screwed
[20:31] <seb128> or u.s locale but weeks starting on monday
[20:31] <desrt> same story, yes
[20:31] <dobey> desrt: well, at least you don't want discordian dates
[20:31] <desrt> there are really three problems, i guess
[20:31] <desrt> 1) completely annoying to mix-and-match locales in the first place
[20:31] <dobey> Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3177
[20:32] <desrt> 2) even if you can deal with the annoyance, all mix-and-matches are not possible
[20:32] <desrt> 3) there is zero possibility to define totally custom formats without creating your own locale
[20:32] <seb128> oh, that's what we should do!
[20:32] <seb128> create locales on the fly ;-)
[20:32] <desrt> ya
[20:32] <desrt> it's not a terrible option, in fact
[20:33] <desrt> which itself is telling you something...
[20:33] <desrt> (if this is our best option...)
[20:34] <desrt> the other possibility (that i consider more and more) is to define how this is handled within glib itself
[20:34] <desrt> and have all GNOME apps use glib for all formatting, ignoring the libc
[20:35] <seb128> right
[20:35] <seb128> which is what people who want a GNOME "start of week" setting are suggesting for a while (where while is years ;-)
[20:36] <seb128> the start of week is an obvious and frequent request, but it's not limited to that one indeed
[20:36] <desrt> many people (and many rather clever people) have suggested this before
[20:36] <GunnarHj> In a sense, creating locales on the fly is the ultimate solution. But OTOH you have a lot of apps/tools that insist on doing their own things with format settings, irrespective of the LC_* variables.
[20:36] <desrt> i'm just not sure i want to bite that one off :)
[20:37] <seb128> desrt, oh come on, we need somebody living in a multicultural country to drive this one :p
[20:37] <desrt> hah
[20:38] <desrt> anyway... it's a can of worms
[20:38] <desrt> even assuming that we pick a reasonable scope and find a way to seed it with some initial data (copying libc, probably)
[20:38] <desrt> we have all sorts of new questions about how we decide to do the configuration
[20:38] <desrt> and how we teach gettext about it (or if we even continue to use gettext)
[20:39] <desrt> it might seem like a nice idea to use dconf, but that would actually be a disaster
[20:39] <desrt> and not just because libglib can't make use of dconf
[20:39] <desrt> but also because it's not clear what we should be expected to do when the settings change
[20:39] <desrt> update any affected labels in realtime?
[20:40] <desrt> sounds fun, if we had a reactive programming language
[20:43] <seb128> desrt, yeah, for some definition of "fun"
[20:44] <seb128> the locale handling is way harder than it should be ;-)
[20:44] <desrt> part of my complaint with glibc is that the locales have entirely too much information
[20:45] <seb128> in practice not sure what are things people really want to see changed
[20:45] <desrt> how to format people's names?  monetary symbol?  address and telephone number formats?
[20:45] <seb128> the most frequent request I've seen for sure in ubuntu is "start of week"
[20:46] <desrt> seb128: date and time formats, for sure
[20:46] <seb128> then we have people who want the texts locale to be different from the units and time format
[20:46] <desrt> seb128: probably decimal point and grouping separator
[20:47]  * desrt is slightly fond of 1'234'567.00
[20:47] <seb128> well I think you have 3 categories there, "language for the stings", "format" for clock,money,etc and start of week which seems a bit special
[20:47] <seb128> stings->strings
[20:47] <desrt> seb128: "how to format money" has no place here
[20:47] <desrt> since any sanely-written program will realise that there is more than one type of money on earth
[20:47] <seb128> well, not "format", but the currency
[20:48] <desrt> and the assumption that because i am in canada i always want to be dealing with canadian dollars is becoming laughable in the modern world
[20:48] <seb128> so maybe what we would need is an api in glib "give me the time formatted to my preferences"
[20:48] <desrt> ditto telephone numbers, addresses and people's names for the same reasons
[20:48] <desrt> indeed
[20:48] <seb128> and have a gsettings key defining that
[20:49] <desrt> but even that is difficult
[20:49] <desrt> with seconds or without?
[20:49] <desrt> date and time?
[20:49] <seb128> %X :p
[20:49] <desrt> if date and time, then do you also have the year, or do you leave that out?
[20:50] <seb128> well I guess you don't want to be too smart
[20:50] <desrt> %X has seconds.  that's almost certainly not what i want for the clock on my panel
[20:50] <seb128> you just want to be able to say "use en_US for the strings" and "fr_FR" for everything else
[20:50] <desrt> LC_MESSAGES=...
[20:51] <desrt> except that LC_TIME has the strings for days of week/month :)
[20:51] <seb128> which is sort of what language selector is doing
[20:51] <seb128> it's dropping LC_... definitions in .profile
[20:51] <desrt> seriously?  that's what it does?
[20:51] <seb128> yes
[20:51] <desrt> wow
[20:51] <desrt> that's really really fucked up
[20:51] <seb128> do you have a better suggestion? ;-)
[20:52] <desrt> a config file that gets sourced by the X session scripts?
[20:52] <desrt> people edit ~/.profile by hand...
[20:52] <desrt> and it's free-form
[20:52] <seb128> right, they are moving to .pam_environment this cycle
[20:52] <desrt> slightly better :)
[20:53] <seb128> bug #866062
[20:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 866062 in accountsservice "SetLanguage(): Write ~/.pam_environment instead of ~/.profile" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/866062
[20:53] <desrt> fwiw ,i find it a bit odd that the account service deals with language at all
[20:54] <desrt> i guess it makes sense from the standpoint of not logging the user into an account that they can't read any labels on
[20:56] <GunnarHj> desrt: That latter remark seems to be about a language chooser on the greeter rather than about accountsservice.
[22:33] <TheMuso> BB?c
[22:33] <TheMuso> GAH