[06:17] <pppurple> would any one care to answer a few questions for me?
[06:19] <sagaci> pppurple: if they're ubuntu support related, you'll have been chance in the main #ubuntu channel
[06:21] <pppurple> wht is the meeting channel for?
[06:21] <pppurple> ill join that channel as well. thanks
[06:22] <DarkEra-netbook> pppurple, if it isn't ubuntu related at all i would suggest to join #ubuntu-offtopic if you just want to chat about everything else ;)
[06:23] <pppurple> im just trying to figure out how i can install it and keep windows as a back up as well...just begginer noob questions.
[06:24] <sagaci> pppurple: yep, #ubuntu
[06:25] <pppurple> perfect thanks
[15:59] <ara> hello!
[16:00] <brendand> hi!
[16:00] <MooDoo> hello
[16:02] <ara> OK, let's get started
[16:02] <roadmr> hello!
[16:02] <ara> #startmeeting
[16:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 16:02:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[16:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:02] <ara> Welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly Squad meeting!
[16:02] <ara> The agenda today looks so far:
[16:02] <ara> Ubuntu Friendly on Ubuntu variants (roadmr). I'll start discussion on this on the ML but if needed, we can hash this out on the meeting too.
[16:02] <ara> AOB
[16:02] <ara> only one topic
[16:02] <ara> let's get started
[16:03] <ara> #topic  Ubuntu Friendly on Ubuntu variants (roadmr)
[16:03] <ara> roadmr, all yours!
[16:03] <roadmr> OK thanks!
[16:03] <roadmr> we've received a few bug reports and complaints, indicating that theuser experience for UF is somewhat subpar on Kubuntu (specifically) - but I guess this would apply to other Ubuntu variants.
[16:04] <roadmr> I sent a request to the mailing list to see what people think of UF's user experience on those variants
[16:04] <roadmr> and also to ask for some help or ideas on tasks to tackle this
[16:04] <roadmr> to make the UF experience better on variants of Ubuntu
[16:05] <roadmr> so other than looking at the tasks I sent to the mailing list,
[16:05] <roadmr> the thing is that a lot of the work to make this happen will have to come from the community
[16:05] <ara> o/
[16:05] <roadmr> so first, if anyone has anything other than the tasks I posted on the ML it'd be nice to hear about it
[16:06] <roadmr> also, if there are some ideas on how to engage and/or reach communities for those variants who may be interested in helping with this, that'd also be nice to discuss.
[16:06] <roadmr> the topic on the ML has not received a lot of attention but it may be because of last week being mostly about vacation :)
[16:06] <roadmr> so any ideas on this?
[16:06] <roadmr> ..
[16:06] <cr3> o/
[16:07] <ara> OK, I go first :D
[16:07] <roadmr> ara go
[16:07] <ara> I think the best idea would be to send the same email (with a bit of introduction) to the kubuntu, xubuntu, lubuntu mailing lists
[16:07] <ara> to see if anyone is interested in doing that work
[16:07] <ara> ..
[16:08] <roadmr> that's a nice idea - also would help get more people interested in ubuntu friendly :)
[16:08] <roadmr> cr3: your turn
[16:08] <cr3> when we talk about the "UF experience" for Ubuntu variants, I'd just like to make sure we not only consider the client, checkbox, but also the web interface which needs to reflect a rating based on the variant which may have significant user interface implications
[16:08] <cr3> ..
[16:09] <ara> o/
[16:09] <roadmr> yep, that's a valid concern, up until now we'd only been focusing on the client (i.e. can't run UF at all, help!)
[16:09] <roadmr> however to be fair, save for some application-specific tests we're mostly testing the hardware
[16:09] <cr3> roadmr: without a web interface counterpart, might as well just not install the client
[16:09] <roadmr> and part of the work we want to do is ensuring we're testing the same components in the same way (i.e. even on kubuntu the audio and video tests use gstreamer)
[16:10] <roadmr> ara: go ahead, and I'll let you chair the meeting, sorry for hijacking it :)
[16:10] <ara> roadmr, no worries, conversation needs to flow :)
[16:11] <ara> what I was going to say was basically what you were saying, roadmr
[16:11] <ara> that we are testing hardware on ubuntu, basically
[16:11] <ara> there shouldn't be a difference on the rating based on variant
[16:11] <ara> ..
[16:11] <brendand> o/
[16:12] <ara> brendand, go ahead
[16:13] <brendand> ara - are you sure about there being no difference. at least kubuntu uses a different bluetooth stack (not certain it affects hw interaction) and maybe a different network manager (i'm only like 20% sure about that one though)
[16:13] <brendand> ..
[16:13] <roadmr> o/
[16:13] <ara> roadmr, your turn
[16:13] <roadmr> brendand: I looked at a stock kubuntu install and nmcli was at least present
[16:14] <roadmr> so part of the problem is that we know next to nothing about these variants, thus engaging their communities is a reasonable first step
[16:14] <MrChrisDruif> Ubuntu Friendly?
[16:14] <roadmr> it may lead to considering the variants as worthy of an entirely separate rating, as per cr3 - but the point seems to be that we won't know until we have on board some people who know them better
[16:14] <brendand> o/
[16:14] <roadmr> MrChrisDruif: yep, you're in the right place. Welcome!
[16:14] <roadmr> ..
[16:15] <ara> brendand, go ahead
[16:15] <MrChrisDruif> I wasn't paying attention to the time
[16:15] <brendand> Ubuntu: BlueZ
[16:15] <MrChrisDruif> o/
[16:15] <brendand> Kubuntu: BlueDevil
[16:15] <brendand> ..
[16:15] <ara> MrChrisDruif, go ahead
[16:16] <MrChrisDruif> O, sorry I thought that was for saying your here. Please continue brendand
[16:17] <ara> can anyone copy-paste the latest bits, please?
[16:17] <ara> I dropped
[16:17] <roadmr> ara: just MrChrisDruif saying hi :) you didn't miss anything
[16:18] <roadmr> oh and brendand pointing out the bluetooth stack differences (maybe you missed that)
[16:19] <ara> cr3, OK, so what happens right now with Non-Ubuntu results in RT? are they accepted?
[16:19] <cr3> ara: yep
[16:20] <roadmr> o/
[16:20] <cr3> ara: I'm not sure where they might be reported though, it might depend on the output of lsb_release
[16:20] <ara> roadmr, go ahead
[16:21] <roadmr> if due to lack of some requirements (because the variant doesn't have them for instance) some UF-required tests are not run, the system will get one star on Ubuntu Friendly :( even though it may work fine
[16:21] <roadmr> ..
[16:21] <ara> We are just going on circles here, I think :-)
[16:21] <roadmr> actions, actions!
[16:21] <ara> Any concrete proposals / action items?
[16:22] <cr3> o/
[16:22] <MrChrisDruif> But would it be possible to install those temporarily for the tests?
[16:22] <ara> cr3, go ahead
[16:22] <cr3> how about this action item: someone to submit test results from kubuntu, see whether that appears as ubuntu and whether all required tests by UF are provided
[16:23] <cr3> ..
[16:23] <ara> I prefer that someone to be from the Kubuntu community
[16:24] <MrChrisDruif> o/
[16:24] <ara> MrChrisDruif, go ahead
[16:25] <MrChrisDruif> Might be silly, but there are certain tests performed by the suite if I'm not mistaken.
[16:25] <MrChrisDruif> Those tests require certain packages to be install to run, correct?
[16:25] <ara> yes
[16:26] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe silly again, but can't the suite "depend" on those packages to be installed before you can run it?
[16:27] <MrChrisDruif> And maybe we could have separate meta-packages for the different flavors?
[16:28] <roadmr> o/
[16:28] <MrChrisDruif> Just an idea of course
[16:28] <MrChrisDruif> Go ahead
[16:28] <ara> roadmr, you go
[16:28] <roadmr> Right now the instructions for installing and testing on Kubuntu are
[16:28] <roadmr> open a terminal, install checkbox-gtk and gstreamer0.10-gconf, and run checkbox-gtk
[16:28] <roadmr> those are the deps I managed to come up with, but I may be missing something
[16:29] <roadmr> now it doesn't seem too complex,
[16:29] <roadmr> but it would indeed be easier to "install checkbox-kubuntu"
[16:29] <ara> o/
[16:29] <roadmr> which would in turn depend on checkbox, checkbox-gtk, and any other checkbox deps we know not to be in kubuntu
[16:29] <roadmr> ..
[16:29] <roadmr> ara, go!
[16:30] <ara> I think that this conversation just needs to engage the kubuntu community first
[16:30] <cr3> when in doubt, add more checkboxes (or checkboxen)!
[16:30] <bladernr_> Noooooooooo!
[16:30] <bladernr_> ;-)
[16:30] <cr3> checkbox-bladernr
[16:30]  * bladernr_ imagines checkboxen to be similar to tribbles
[16:30] <brendand> o/
[16:30] <ara> we got a lot of people from kubuntu in the uds session
[16:31] <bladernr_> o/
[16:31] <ara> I am sure someone will want to get involved
[16:31] <ara> if we don't get anybody, then, why are we going to do the effort??
[16:31] <ara> ..
[16:31] <ara> brendand, your turn
[16:31] <cr3> ara: +1
[16:32] <brendand> just to say that checkbox-kubuntu isn't really an extra checkbox any more than checkbox-gtk is, so i don't think it's that big a deal
[16:33] <brendand> let's send an email to the mailing list. if no-one volunteers, as ara says, why are we worried?
[16:33] <brendand> ..
[16:33] <cr3> o/
[16:33] <ara> bladernr_, your turn
[16:33] <bladernr_> ok...
[16:34] <bladernr_> first, like Brendan, I agree with ara in the "if no one stands up, why worry?" area... also, I agree that we should engage the Kubuntu community for help, especially with finding out where the failures are.
[16:35] <bladernr_> second though, what about trying to normalize checkbox a bit too... are the missing things Gnome specific, or are there cases where a test is simply dependend on a package that Ubuntu includes that Kubuntu disregards?
[16:35] <bladernr_> perhaps we could organize a Ubuntu Friendly Hug Day with the Kubuntu crowd to help sort this out
[16:35] <bladernr_> ..
[16:36] <ara> o/
[16:36] <ara> OK, so I think that the first thing to do is sending hte email, and then follow up from there
[16:36] <ara> the email needs to be sent to both kubuntu-devel and  ubuntu-friendly-squad, to be able to follow up
[16:37] <ara> any takers? roadmr, you brought the topic
[16:37] <roadmr> sure I can do it :) kubuntu only, or also lubuntu and xubuntu?
[16:37] <bladernr_> 0/
[16:37] <bladernr_> ^^ my head apparently got bigger
[16:38] <ara> #action roadmr to send email to the derivatives mailing lists about UF experience (and to get people involved!)
[16:38] <meetingology> ACTION: roadmr to send email to the derivatives mailing lists about UF experience (and to get people involved!)
[16:38] <ara> bladernr_, go adhea
[16:38] <bladernr_> I'd suggest kubuntu only for now (since that's where the apparent interest is so far) and we can use whatever work we do for that as a template to enable other branches.
[16:38] <cr3> o/ again
[16:38] <bladernr_> ..
[16:38] <ara> +1
[16:38] <ara> cr3, go ahead
[16:38] <cr3> please, if we have another package, lets not name it "kubuntu" because that would imply there should be other similarly named packages for other variants like "xubuntu" which might not be necessary, so something like checkbox-qt would make a lot more sense
[16:39] <cr3> if we want to normalize checkbox and make it work across more variants, perhaps we should move away from specific technologies and use something more versatile like pygame even! that would work everywhere there's a graphical interface
[16:39] <cr3> ..
[16:39] <cr3> bladernr_: ^^^ we could have just two checkboxen, one for a graphical interface and one for the command line. that's it
[16:40] <ara> OK, anything else on this topic?
[16:41] <bladernr_> cr3:  yeah, I like the urwid package so far for that. it seems to work, and it's aready there
[16:42] <cr3> bladernr_: I think we can do better than urwid for a graphical interface though, hence pygame which uses the SDL that should be supported just about anywhere
[16:42] <ara> OK, moving on
[16:42] <ara> you guys can take that conversation offline
[16:43] <ara> #topic Any Other Business?
[16:43] <cr3> ara: are you telling bladernr_ and I to get a room? :)
[16:43] <ara> anything else?
[16:43] <cr3> o/
[16:43] <brendand> o/
[16:44] <ara> cr3, go ahead
[16:44] <cr3> Every week, there seems to be an interesting topic that comes up. I just wanted to mention that we're doing rather well in justifying the need for weekly meetings :)
[16:44] <cr3> ..
[16:45] <ara> +1
[16:45] <ara> brendand, ?
[16:45] <brendand> i guess we don't have too much more time
[16:45] <brendand> but i wanted to say that following on from the list thread about automatically detecting the type of a system
[16:46] <MrChrisDruif> Ow, I got something
[16:46] <brendand> myself and roadmr established that the most sound logic for determining a systems type is:
[16:47] <MrChrisDruif> Sorry, go on brendand
[16:47] <brendand> check if the system has a battery. if it does not then it is most certainly a desktop
[16:47] <brendand> that's wrong
[16:47] <brendand> start again
[16:47] <brendand> check if the system has a battery. if it does then it is most certainly a laptop
[16:48] <brendand> if it doesn't then check the type with DMI. if it professes to be one of the 'laptop' types then we believe it is a laptop
[16:48] <brendand> otherwise we believe it is a desktop
[16:49] <cr3> brendand: this should be mentionned to the fwts to test that the DMI information is probably defined
[16:49] <cr3> s/probably/properly/
[16:49] <brendand> the only circumstance in which this will fail is if a laptop either has it's battery removed or undetectable AND it reports as a 'non-laptop' type
[16:49] <ara> brendand, this needs to be followed up in the mailing list thread
[16:49] <ara> cna you do that, please?
[16:50] <brendand> i will of course send this out on the ml too, with a link to the branch with the script which implements that logic
[16:50] <brendand> ..
[16:50] <ara> cool, thanks
[16:50] <ara> MrChrisDruif, your turn
[16:51] <MrChrisDruif> Sure, on my mobile I noticed this meeting twice
[16:51] <MrChrisDruif> I was checking if the fridge itself had it twice as well, because via the web it only showed once
[16:52] <ara> and?
[16:53] <MrChrisDruif> Hmm, it seems to be correct on the Fridge. So I'll check my own settings. That was it =)
[16:53] <ara> cool, thanks
[16:53] <ara> anything else?
[16:53]  * roadmr got nothing else
[16:54] <ara> cool, I think we can wrap up, then
[16:54] <ara> #endmeeting
[16:54] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 16:54:09 2011 UTC.
[16:54] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-16.02.moin.txt
[16:54] <ara> thanks all!
[16:56] <MrChrisDruif> ara; has ubuntu friendly got an irc channel?
[16:57] <roadmr> MrChrisDruif: not really, we usually hang out in #ubuntu-testing
[16:57] <roadmr> MrChrisDruif: and I assume you're subscribed to the mailing list? if you have any concerns and can't reach any of us on IRC, you can always drop a line on the ML
[16:57] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks, I'll "see" you around
[16:58] <MrChrisDruif> Not yet, might do so
[16:58] <roadmr> MrChrisDruif: yep! thanks for attending the meeting, the more the merrier!
[16:58] <MrChrisDruif> I'll see you in testing
[18:02] <jdstrand> o/
[18:02] <micahg> o/
[18:03] <mdeslaur> \o
[18:03] <jdstrand> let's get started
[18:03] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[18:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 18:03:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[18:03] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:03] <jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
[18:03] <jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[18:03] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
[18:04] <jdstrand> Thank you to jamespage for preparing updates for jenkins last week! :)
[18:04] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[18:04] <jdstrand> I'll go first
[18:04] <jdstrand> it looks surprisingly like last week
[18:04] <jdstrand> though I am in the happy place this week
[18:04] <jdstrand> I am almost caught up on email from the holiday weekend
[18:05] <jdstrand> I have some pending updates
[18:05] <jdstrand> MIR audits
[18:05] <jdstrand> and more statistics gathering on proactive and reactive work as have time
[18:05] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
[18:05] <mdeslaur> I just published some apt and update-manager updates
[18:05]  * jdstrand also poke at the aa-profiles work
[18:05] <mdeslaur> and have some other updates to attend to this week
[18:06] <mdeslaur> I'm also on triage
[18:06] <mdeslaur> and plan on looking at apparmor app confinement
[18:06] <mdeslaur> that's it from me
[18:06] <mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're it
[18:07] <sbeattie> I'm in the happy place again this week
[18:07] <sbeattie> I'm still poking at cgroups and have some updates on my plate as well.
[18:07] <sbeattie> ... in addition to recovering from the holiday and catching up on email.
[18:08] <sbeattie> I think that's it for me. micahg?
[18:09] <micahg> I'm still catching up on updates, hopefully will be caught up by the end of the week with immediate updates (Thunderbird, NSS, chromium), Thunderbird 8 went out finally :), I think that's it, tyhicks?
[18:09] <tyhicks> I'm handling the community role this week
[18:09] <tyhicks> I have a short week as I'm off on Friday
[18:10] <tyhicks> I didn't make much progress on the t1lib update from last week, as patches don't seem to be available
[18:10] <tyhicks> I'm currently working on another (private) update
[18:11] <tyhicks> and I've got to get an eCryptfs kernel patch out to lkml sometime early this week to incorporate some feedback from Linus
[18:11] <tyhicks> thats it for me - jjohansen?
[18:12] <jdstrand> jjohansen is off today. I don't think he'll be in the meeting
[18:12] <jdstrand> so, I know jjohansen has a short week, will continue with kernel updates and is working on essential apparmor work items
[18:12] <jdstrand> let's move on
[18:12] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
[18:12] <jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
[18:13] <jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
[18:13] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/phpldapadmin.html
[18:13] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cyrus-imapd-2.2.html
[18:13] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ember.html
[18:13] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mydms.html
[18:13] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ike.html
[18:13] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[18:13] <jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[18:15] <jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks: thanks! and thanks for all you're recent hard work on updates :)
[18:15] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[18:15] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 18:15:57 2011 UTC.
[18:15] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-18.03.moin.txt
[18:16] <tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
[18:16] <micahg> thanks jdstrand
[18:16] <mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
[20:25] <broder> kees: fyi, i don't think i'll be able to make the TB meeting today. feel free to sub someone else from backporters in for me or punt it until the next meeting
[20:27] <kees> broder: okay, thanks
[20:28] <highvoltage> kees: nice mail regarding the -pae kernel :)
[20:36] <stgraber> kees: should we add an agenda item to discuss dropping non-PAE? it may be a bit short notice (with our meeting in just a few minutes), so I'm fine discussing it in two weeks too but if the kernel team believes it needs to be discussed by the TB, I'm more than happy to do so ;)
[20:53] <kees> highvoltage: thanks, not sure what'll happen with it, but I wanted to make sure we didn't use nx-emu
[20:54] <kees> stgraber: I'd like to discuss it, yeah. it'd be nice to have someone willing to drive it, though. I'd rather be able to vote on it instead of recusing myself. :P
[20:55] <stgraber> kees: yeah, I'd be happy to just vote on that one too :)
[20:58] <pitti> hello everyone
[20:58] <kees> hi!
[20:58] <pitti> will be here in a few mins, just saying good night to my wife
[21:00] <cjwatson> hi
[21:00] <highvoltage> howdy
[21:00] <soren> o/
[21:00]  * stgraber waves
[21:00] <cjwatson> I'd prefer a bit more discussion time on the kernel question rather than going to a vote today, I think, FWIW
[21:01] <kees> okidoky
[21:01] <kees> #startmeeting
[21:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 21:01:31 2011 UTC.  The chair is kees. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[21:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[21:01] <stgraber> yeah, I guess having it on the agenda for our next meeting and making sure someone from the kernel team is here too would be best
[21:01] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[21:01] <kees> mdz can't make it today
[21:02] <kees> [topic] action review
[21:02] <kees> it looks like everything from last time got done.
[21:03] <kees> [topic] Opening backports pocket pre-release
[21:03] <kees> broder said he couldn't make it this time. is there anything we need to cover here that we can do?
[21:03] <pitti> hm, I thought we pretty much discussed that last time
[21:03] <pitti> IIRC we +1ed this with a few modifications
[21:04] <soren> That's how I remember it, too.
[21:04] <kees> he'd sent an updated list of items https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
[21:04] <cjwatson> agreed; broder's summary looks fine to me
[21:04] <pitti> kees: right, that was it, thanks for the link
[21:04] <kees> okay, so the 001137 summary was good? did that already get voted on?
[21:04] <cjwatson> one thing I noticed, and it's not a blocker at all, if there are to be no source/binary copies through -backports when opening a new release, somebody should file an LP bug; however, I think it would be easier to just let things be copied and then upload rebuilds
[21:04] <cjwatson> (avoids NEW)
[21:04] <cjwatson> that's a minor wording tweak though
[21:05]  * kees nods
[21:06] <kees> [topic] Edubuntu LTS Application
[21:06] <kees> I didn't see email for this. I lack context ...
[21:06] <stgraber> highvoltage: ^
[21:06] <kees> highvoltage: ah, this is yours?
[21:06] <kees> just checked the wiki edit history...
[21:06] <highvoltage> right!
[21:06] <stgraber> kees: for the backports, should we vote on the current proposal?
[21:07] <highvoltage> Hi! It's 23:00 so please forgive me if I'm a bit groggy.
[21:07] <highvoltage> The Edubuntu LTS proposal is currently really simple.
[21:07] <highvoltage> The Edubuntu team plans to:
[21:07] <highvoltage> * Supply security fixes to packages in the Edubuntu system that are not in the Desktop Ubuntu seeds
[21:07] <highvoltage> * Leverage the Kubuntu LTS release for our KDE packages
[21:07] <highvoltage> * Drop packages that are likely to be risky or difficult to support
[21:07] <highvoltage> * Release point releases along with all of Ubuntu's point releases
[21:07] <highvoltage> * Wiki Page where we're tracking this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
[21:07] <highvoltage> stgraber and myself are here representing the Edubuntu team (even though stgraber is a TB member as well)
[21:07] <kees> stgraber: i'll come back to that, sorry for jumping ahead.
[21:07] <highvoltage> If there's any questions, concerns or comments, please fire away.
[21:08] <cjwatson> how many developers does the Edubuntu team have
[21:08] <cjwatson> ?
[21:08] <kees> "that are not in the Desktop Ubuntu seeds
[21:08] <pitti> stgraber: FWIW, we already voted on teh backports one
[21:08] <kees> I assume that means "Desktop and Server" Ubuntu seeds actually?
[21:08] <highvoltage> cjwatson: very, very few. it's typically 2 people.
[21:08] <kees> and what is the list of source packages that would be considered supported?
[21:08] <pitti> highvoltage: what's the order of packages that are affected by this, i. e. packages which are not already covered by u/k desktop?
[21:09] <stgraber> or rather anything that's not in a supported seed (as edubunt inherits quite a bit from ubuntu and kubuntu)
[21:09] <cjwatson> I guess I'm worried about the bus factor over an LTS cycle length
[21:09] <highvoltage> pitti: I wish I had that for you already, it's on my to-do list, at an educated guess I'd say around 20 packages.
[21:10] <pitti> highvoltage: that's fine, I was just interested in the magnitue
[21:10] <kees> only 20? that seems very small.
[21:10] <pitti> highvoltage: that's typically software for maintaining school schedules, and some educationary programs as well? (or is that just kdeedu)
[21:10] <kees> in the past, there has been trouble keeping things like moodle up to date in edubuntu. what is different now?
[21:10] <stgraber> I'm getting the list now (before filtering of what we want to drop)
[21:10] <pitti> highvoltage: local edu applications are probably "mostly harmless", I'm mostly worried about things like mediawiki and similar web/php stuff
[21:11] <highvoltage> pitti: it's a bit more than kde-edu, there's tux4kids, gcompris, there are things like arkose, ltsp-live (I really should put together that list)
[21:11] <stgraber> kees: we dropped the server part of Edubuntu, the only thing we kept server-side is LTSP, that's already supported in Ubuntu
[21:11] <highvoltage> if you include kde-edu it does get quite a bit larger
[21:11] <kees> stgraber: ah-ha
[21:11] <highvoltage> pitti: but yes, they are mostly harmless
[21:11] <pitti> oh, seems moodle isn't on the edubuntu DVD any more
[21:11] <cjwatson> with the exception of LTSP most of it's leaf packages, right?
[21:12] <highvoltage> pitti: yeah we don't support any php software at this time
[21:12] <pitti> my main concern is PHPish stuff and similar web apps
[21:12] <stgraber> full list of binary packages: http://paste.ubuntu.com/752980/
[21:12] <pitti> highvoltage: ah, good
[21:12] <cjwatson> highvoltage: one thing I will say is that Kubuntu as LTS has not to my knowledge been finalised; it certainly hasn't come up to the TB for approval
[21:13] <cjwatson> if your LTSness is effectively conditional on that, perhaps we should arrange to talk with the Kubuntu people first ...
[21:13] <highvoltage> we'd like to revive the edubuntu-server stuff for 12.10, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish, for now there's no web apps at all.
[21:13] <pitti> yeah,  I'm not worried about things like gcompris
[21:13] <stgraber> (full list of binary packages currently in universe, that's)
[21:13] <cjwatson> highvoltage: on Mono (in your wiki page): Mono isn't actually dropping out of main for 12.04 AFAI
[21:13] <highvoltage> cjwatson: indeed. we can wait on what happens with Kubuntu's application. Riddell has informed me that Darkwing is working on it
[21:13] <cjwatson> K
[21:14] <cjwatson> highvoltage: since it's needed for building bindings and the like
[21:14] <pitti> mono> not out of main, but dropping out of the LTS support
[21:14] <highvoltage> cjwatson: I just didn't want to wait too long before applying. If Kubuntu is only supported for 3 years then we'd want the same.
[21:14] <pitti> so it'll just get the standard 1.5 years; but that's mostly for commercial support
[21:14] <pitti> as it's in main, security updates are still covered
[21:14] <cjwatson> pitti: I was under the impression that anything required to build desktop/server got the same support lifetime
[21:14] <pitti> (not that there are many for mono)
[21:15] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, maybe; that line has never been very clear to me
[21:15] <pitti> the canonical support one, I mean
[21:15] <kees> given that the server half is gone, I think the risk and work for supporting the client bits is likely low. I'd like to see it after Kubuntu's LTSness is finalized, as mentioned.
[21:15] <highvoltage> I guess it's also worth mentioning that we don't expect an answer from the TB right away, we just wanted to open op dialog so long and get some feedback
[21:15] <stgraber> anyway, we had mono only for gbrainy, banshee and tomboy, same as Ubuntu, so we got the change automatically when pitti did it last week
[21:16] <pitti> gbrainy is quite a nice one indeed
[21:16]  * cjwatson checks LP code
[21:16] <cjwatson> I guess I'm mistaken, maintenance-check doesn't pull in build-deps
[21:16] <highvoltage> it is. gbrainy is awesome. at least we can encourage users to use software-center by telling them they can get it there :)
[21:16] <pitti> but if that will be the only thing for "mono in or out of LTS", it might be ok to drop from the DVD
[21:16] <pitti> highvoltage: yeah, I like it, too :)
[21:17] <cjwatson> (is mono security support a problem then?  I never paid much attention to that, but I must say I'm a bit surprised)
[21:17] <pitti> but anyway, mono commercial support for LTS does sound like a problem ("need this on that new ARM arch"), but security support should be totally doable
[21:18] <kees> mono authors in the past have been responsive about security updates.
[21:18] <highvoltage> cjwatson: I'm not sure of its security history, but it's something that neither myself or stgraber is much familiar with, or is particularly interested in besides gbrainy, so even just a little work on it would be costly for us if we'd have to do it
[21:18] <stgraber> I think the current position of the edubuntu team is that we'd rather avoid being the ones with a programming language in their package set for an LTS release ;)
[21:18] <pitti> http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=mono FYI
[21:18] <pitti> but anyway, it's still in main, and will be for the forseeable future, so I don't think we could get away with not security-supporting it
[21:19] <pitti> but I think we disgress a little
[21:19] <micahg> pitti: normally security support is for as long as the package is officially supported
[21:19] <stgraber> so if we know we can ship gbrainy and we only commit to maintaing gbrainy for the length of the LTS, that's fine, having to deal with the language itself is a bit much for us :)
[21:19] <highvoltage> stgraber: personally I wouldn't mind having mono in if it means that we can keep gbrainy, it just depends on what kind of responsibility comes with it :)
[21:20] <kees> alright, so, good start to discussion. is there something specific we should accomplish in the meeting today?
[21:21] <stgraber> so yeah, to come back to the actual package list, it's mostly a few educational tools, fonts (not really risky), the gnome fallback session and a bunch of java stuff I'll try to get rid off
[21:21] <pitti> so my gut feeling is that aside from the mono/gbrainy question (which we should ask the security team about), is that IF kubuntu is LTS, then edubuntu LTS sounds doable
[21:21] <highvoltage> I guess we should see what Kubuntu does, it's probably not a bad idea to set some kind of date for making a final(ish) decision on it
[21:22] <kees> sounds like two things for the next meeting, then: a list of the source packages to be security-supported, and an update on Kubuntu LTSness?
[21:22] <stgraber> sounds good
[21:23] <highvoltage> yep
[21:23] <kees> okay, excellent. thanks for bringing this up.
[21:23] <kees> [topic] Opening backports pocket pre-release
[21:23] <cjwatson> if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Langford#Basilisks ever happens then we might have to start worrying about font security
[21:23] <kees> I may have left this one too soon. do we need to vote on broder's updated proposal?
[21:24] <cjwatson> 21:08 <pitti> stgraber: FWIW, we already voted on teh backports one
[21:24] <kees> okay, moving on then.
[21:24] <kees> [topic] Recurring: Brain storm review (Next due: December 2011)
[21:24] <kees> is the output due in dec, or our discussion of assigning who will do output due by dec?
[21:24] <pitti> oh, that time of the year already
[21:25] <kees> if the former, we need to assign something now.
[21:25] <pitti> kees: when I added that originally, I meant the "due date" as "topic for TB meeting"
[21:25] <kees> pitti: okay, so we'll save this for the next meeting then?
[21:25] <pitti> but finding someone nowish does sound like a good idea either way, given that the next TB meeting will be well within holiday season
[21:25] <kees> ah, fair enough.
[21:26] <kees> I'd be happy to take it if I could have the requirements a little more well defined.
[21:26] <kees> do we have any kind of documentation on how to do the review?
[21:26] <cjwatson> we have some by way of cargo-culting from the previous ones
[21:26] <cjwatson> mdz sent me links when I did it
[21:26] <stgraber> pitti: not to be too picky (because I'm +1 on that plan anyway), can you point me to where we actually voted on that? I just found a +1 from you in the last meeting log but can't find anyone else's vote
[21:26] <pitti> kees: what I did is take the top 10 brainstorm items (with a little common sense adjustment), find some people who could give a good reply/action/answer to this, and ask them whether they are willing to do them
[21:27] <pitti> stgraber: perhaps I misremember then; if there's doubt, let's just re-vote, should be quick
[21:27] <kees> pitti: can you dump the links and that short summary into something like TechnicalBoard/BrainStormReview ?
[21:27] <pitti> kees: I can forward you my mails from back then
[21:27] <kees> and then I'll go through it for next meeting and try to get comments
[21:27] <pitti> or that
[21:28] <stgraber> pitti: I'm looking at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/17/%23ubuntu-meeting.html I think it sounds like we all agree in the log but we were only barely quorate, so can't hurt having something a bit better documented :)
[21:28] <kees> [action] pitti: document brainstorm review activity
[21:28] <meetingology> ACTION: pitti: document brainstorm review activity
[21:28] <kees> [action] kees: perform brainstorm review
[21:28] <meetingology> ACTION: kees: perform brainstorm review
[21:29] <pitti> stgraber: ah, that was it, the quorum, yes
[21:30] <kees> let's just do another vote?
[21:30] <kees> soren: still with us?
[21:30] <soren> Sure.
[21:31] <kees> [vote] approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
[21:31] <meetingology> Please vote on: approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
[21:31] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[21:31] <pitti> +1
[21:31] <meetingology> +1 received from pitti
[21:31] <kees> +1
[21:31] <meetingology> +1 received from kees
[21:31] <stgraber> +1
[21:31] <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
[21:31] <soren> Er..
[21:31] <soren> +1
[21:31] <meetingology> +1 received from soren
[21:31] <cjwatson> +1
[21:31] <meetingology> +1 received from cjwatson
[21:31] <kees> #endvote
[21:31] <meetingology> Voting ended on: approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
[21:31] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[21:31] <meetingology> Motion carried
[21:32] <soren> Man, that was confusing. I thought we were still talking about the brainstorm review :)
[21:32] <kees> okay, officially documented. :)
[21:32] <kees> soren: sorry, we switched back. :)
[21:32] <kees> [topic] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
[21:32] <kees> I don't see anything we missed in the archives.
[21:32] <stgraber> kees: thanks, sorry for being a bit picky but I like being able to grep through meeting logs and having it properly documented makes it much easier :)
[21:33] <kees> stgraber: yeah, no, that's fine. I missed the last meeting, so I don't have all the context for what happened. :)
[21:33] <kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[21:34] <kees> I'm not sure what's needed in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
[21:34] <soren> I forget where these would be filed?
[21:34] <soren> Oh.
[21:35] <kees> soren: giant URL linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[21:35] <soren> kees: You've been so good at copying agenda items from there that I haven't even looked at it this meeting :)
[21:35] <kees> hehe
[21:36] <kees> and I don't see what actions TB need to take on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/252368 either
[21:36] <kees> I'll move ahead unless someone has something to add to these.
[21:38] <cjwatson> those two are longish-term tracking bugs, I don't think there's anything to add right now
[21:38] <kees> [topic] additional topics?
[21:38] <kees> okay, anything else to bring up for this meeting?
[21:38] <pitti> nothing from me
[21:39] <stgraber> just making sure we have PAE on the agenda for our next meeting
[21:39] <stgraber> other than that, nothing else for me
[21:39] <kees> I'd like to find someone to drive that topic. I'll see if either jdstrand or slangasek are interested.
[21:40] <kees> [topic] Select a chair for the next meeting
[21:40] <kees> I think mdz would be alpha-next. who did the last meeting?
[21:40] <stgraber> I did but that was because you weren't around at the time
[21:41] <stgraber> next one should be pitti
[21:41]  * kees shakes his fist at DST
[21:41] <soren> not mdz?
[21:41] <stgraber> (alphabetical order from https://launchpad.net/~techboard/+members)
[21:41] <soren> Oh, real names?
[21:41] <soren> How.... analog.
[21:41] <soren> Ok. :)
[21:41] <kees> let's stick with irc nicks :)
[21:41] <stgraber> that's what I've been using so far, maybe it conventiently matched to IRC nicks :)
[21:41] <pitti> I can chair, no problem
[21:42] <kees> well, since mdz isn't here to accept/decline, let's go with pitti.
[21:42] <kees> thanks!
[21:43] <kees> #endmeeting
[21:43] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 21:43:41 2011 UTC.
[21:43] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-21.01.moin.txt
[21:43] <pitti> thanks everyone!
[21:43] <pitti> and good night
[21:44] <stgraber> thanks!
[21:44] <broder> oh cool, i got back just in time to miss everything :)
[21:44] <soren> Thanks!
[21:44] <kees> stgraber, highvoltage: should edubuntu stay on the agenda for next time?
[21:44] <broder> thanks for the approval, everyone - i'll start looking into implementation
[21:44] <highvoltage> kees: I think it might as well, since Kubuntu should go on there
[21:44] <stgraber> kees: yes, highvoltage and I will poke the Kubuntu folks so we get them on the agenda too
[21:44] <kees> okay
[21:45] <highvoltage> kees: I've poked Darkwing to attend next time for Kubuntu
[21:45] <stgraber> kees: I think it'd be good to have LTS aproval done early in this cycle
[21:45] <cjwatson> indeed
[21:45] <kees> stgraber: agreeds
[21:45] <kees> s/s$//
[21:45] <stgraber> I don't think we have a documented deadline for it but "early" sounds good (and definitely before FF)