[00:00] <bkerensa> paultag: You moving to Debian full time?
[00:00] <bkerensa> :D
[00:00] <paultag> bkerensa: yeah, I'm gone :)
[00:01] <paultag> bkerensa: I'm going to start NM before the end of the year
[00:01] <paultag> or early january
[00:01] <bkerensa> paultag: Well then you should come to the first ever Ubuntu Local Jam/Debian Bug Squashing Party ;)
[00:01] <bkerensa> heh
[00:01] <paultag> bkerensa: it's not first ever :)
[00:01] <paultag> we had an Ubuntu Upstream Jam
[00:01] <paultag> and we've had a few ubuntu / debian hackathons at MIT
[00:02] <paultag> there are enough DDs in boston to make that super easy to pull off
[00:02] <bkerensa> maybe vorlon made a typo :P
[00:02] <paultag> :)
[00:03] <paultag> bkerensa: but yeah, I'm stoked.
[00:03] <bkerensa> paultag: Well its sad to see you leave... You provided more guidance to our loco then anyone else on the council
[00:03] <bkerensa> ;)
[00:04] <paultag> bkerensa: I'll be around here or there, but I'm dropping roles
[00:12] <greg-g> paultag: not yet :) I will be looking into the locolint stuff more in depth later, I'm not feeling the best (headache and such) right now, so minimizing comptuer time
[00:13] <paultag> greg-g: totally. rock on :)
[00:13] <paultag> greg-g: just trying to make the transition unsuck
[00:13] <greg-g> paultag: thanks man
[00:14] <paultag> greg-g: get some rest, we'll be around :)
[00:14] <greg-g> paultag: where should I find you in IRC-land in the future (if not here)?
[00:14] <paultag> (the royal we)
[00:14] <paultag> greg-g: as `paultag' on here or oftc, but I'll idle here for at least the cycle, if not more
[00:14]  * greg-g nods
[00:14] <paultag> so if you don't find me, I'm screen'd
[00:14] <paultag> or email :)
[00:14] <greg-g> word
[00:14] <paultag> paragraph
[00:14] <paultag> ok, great
[00:14] <paultag> get sleep, greg-g :)
[00:14] <paultag> rock on, congrats
[01:11] <mhall119> paultag: it seems once again I'm going to have to say you were right
[01:11] <mhall119> at least, a little bit right
[01:12] <mhall119> you were a little bit wrong too, which makes it easier :)
[01:25] <paultag> mhall119: well alright :)
[01:25] <paultag> mhall119: how so, if I might ask :)
[01:30] <paultag> (forgive me if I lag out, wifi is flaky)
[01:36] <mhall119> mine too, I blame U1
[01:36] <mhall119> anyway, I've been working my way through outlining my whole "capitalism in the open source community" essay
[01:36] <paultag> ah, very flaky subject :)
[01:36] <mhall119> and there's very little application of capital going on
[01:37] <paultag> humm.
[01:37] <paultag> mhall119: well tell me, what did you find?
[01:37] <mhall119> trying to map what we have to a real-world market system, the closest I can get is a Jeffersonian yoeman-farmer/agrarian economy
[01:38] <paultag> hurmm.
[01:39] <paultag> mhall119: what's the closest brand of communism you could match with how you were profiling f/oss communities?
[01:40] <mhall119> I'm not as familiar with communist economic models
[01:40] <mhall119> I was leaning towards a gift economy, but we're really not
[01:40] <paultag> yeah, I always had a hard time finding a good fit
[01:41] <paultag> it's just sort of.. odd. Once you factor in the complete lack of scarcity, it's tough to find any economic model
[01:41] <mhall119> so basically we have project owners == land owners, and contributors == laborers, but I haven't found anything in f/loss that has the caracteristics of an investor/businessman
[01:42] <paultag> mhall119: I'm not sure I totally buy the land owner argument
[01:42] <mhall119> paultag: not really, ESR's essay does a good job of showing that the commodity of value in f/loss is recognition, not code
[01:42] <paultag> because at any point you can take the farm and copy it somewhere else without any real drain
[01:42] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, I mean, sure.
[01:42] <paultag> but at the same time, it's more about talent then recognition
[01:42] <paultag> imho
[01:42] <mhall119> in which case, a fork of a project doesn't give you all the value of reputation of the original project
[01:43] <paultag> sure, the ole' survival of the fittest model
[01:43] <mhall119> again, the common commodity isn't the code itself
[01:43] <paultag> the beryl / compiz fork / merge is a good example
[01:43] <mhall119> like you said, there's no scarcity of code, so it has little value as a commodity
[01:43] <paultag> right
[01:44] <paultag> like I said, it's all very darkly :)
[01:44] <mhall119> but there is a scarcity (or at least non-infinite) amount of recognition to go around
[01:44] <mhall119> my only problem with that is, recognition isn't exactly a commodity, not all recognition is equal
[01:45] <paultag> I'm not super sold with that argument
[01:45] <mhall119> which?
[01:45] <paultag> but I'll take it for now
[01:45] <paultag> that we trade and deal in recognition
[01:45] <paultag> it's a sort of... by-product
[01:45] <mhall119> did you read ESR's essay I linked you to a while back?
[01:45] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, his argument was that, I seem to recall
[01:45] <mhall119> he makes a strong case, IMO
[01:45] <paultag> he does
[01:46] <paultag> but I don't buy it totally
[01:46] <paultag> I don't know. It's all very murky
[01:46] <paultag> I'm not so sure we have a good way to model this stuff
[01:46] <mhall119> but I think I can take that and, applying traditional market principles, explain some of the things we see in our community
[01:47] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, sure.
[01:47] <paultag> the only thing is you can't "spend" your 'cred
[01:47] <mhall119> we'll see, it's all just a hypothesis at this point
[01:47] <paultag> you can flaunt it and use it
[01:47] <paultag> but there's no "drain"
[01:47] <mhall119> paultag: you can though, and you do without knowing it
[01:47] <mhall119> and you can drain it
[01:47] <paultag> which I guess is why we see a lot of jerkoffs
[01:47] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, but not by using it
[01:47] <paultag> if there is such a thing
[01:48] <mhall119> think of the people who used to get others to work for them, but can't anymore, because they shot their reputation
[01:49] <mhall119> or, think of people you know who do good work, but are asking for others to do work for them so often that their requests for work start gaining less and less response
[01:49] <paultag> humm
[01:50] <mhall119> an example, if I put out an alpha version of a diving log, how many people would be interested in such a program?
[01:50] <paultag> yeah yeah yeah, linus :)
[01:50] <mhall119> now, imagine if Linux was throwing one of those out every week
[01:50] <mhall119> how long before people stopped rushing to contribute to them?
[01:51] <paultag> mhall119: but see, I'm not totally convinced that that can't be modeled with marxist theory
[01:51] <mhall119> maybe, which of his books should I read to get a better understanding of his theories?
[01:51] <paultag> mhall119: well, for this. Humm.
[01:52] <mhall119> I have the communist manifesto, I'm thinking I should get das kapital too
[01:52] <paultag> mhall119: Dask Kapital is dense
[01:52] <mhall119> then, of course, I need to read keynes and that austrian guy too
[01:52] <paultag> erm, Das
[01:53] <paultag> mhall119: try the Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
[01:53] <mhall119> on sec
[01:53] <paultag> mhall119: his theory of alienation / estrangement of labor is huge in this, I think
[01:54] <paultag> I think it's part of the reason why I can code so much and not feel stressed by it
[01:54] <mhall119> bah, google books fails me on that one
[01:54] <paultag> mhall119: there's a wiki page on this, I'm sure
[01:54] <paultag> one sec
[01:54] <paultag> mhall119: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation <- I think this affects F/OSS communites 
[01:55] <mhall119> oh, 1966, probably still under copyright
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from the product he produces
[01:55] <paultag> The labour becomes impersonal
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from the human race
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from other human beings
[01:56] <paultag> His argument is working for someone else to produce goods that you have no "say" in (that is to say, works that are estranged from you)
[01:56] <paultag> the worker is subject to those 4 things
[01:56] <paultag> as described on the wiki :)
[01:57] <paultag> by doing F/OSS work we become more human
[01:58] <paultag> boom. truth bomb
[01:59] <mhall119> that only works if you are doing f/loss work for different reasons
[01:59] <mhall119> it's not because the code is f/loss
[01:59] <paultag> true
[01:59] <paultag> if you foss for fun :)
[01:59] <paultag> if you do it for work, it's just as bad as normal work
[01:59] <paultag> erm, not normal. nonfree
[02:00] <mhall119> hmmm, you know, I think I can use that
[02:00] <paultag> mhall119: that's just one very small (and almost tangent) note - there's a lot of good stuff in marx
[02:01] <mhall119> if you do f/oss work for the recognition you get, not the joy of making it....
[02:01] <paultag> a lot of original / translated marx is very dense, so the sparknotes might be just as good
[02:01] <paultag> mhall119: ah, yes. True.
[02:03] <mhall119> ah tomoboy, what did I do before we met?
[02:04] <mhall119> I'm going to have to structure this into a series of blog posts, just my notes are too long for just one
[02:05] <paultag> yeah
[02:05] <mhall119> paultag: unrelated, but when I'm ready to get my Qimo packages into Debian, would you be able to help me get them right and sponsor them?
[02:05] <paultag> mhall119: sure, I'd be glad to help in any way I can
[02:06] <mhall119> thanks man
[02:06] <paultag> mhall119: I can review it to archive-quality and you can shoot it off for real sponsorship
[02:06] <mhall119> you better not /quit this channel
[02:06] <paultag> then sync it back :)
[02:06] <paultag> mhall119: nah, I wont
[02:07] <mhall119> I'm not sure I'll be ready before the debian import freeze on 12.04, we'll see
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: file a RC bug ;)
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: and DIF is fine, you can sync during alphas
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: you just have to request it :)
[02:07] <paultag> after DIF *
[02:08] <mhall119> my packages don't currently work, haven't for a couple cycles now
[02:08] <paultag> mhall119: well, get it in ship-shape and we can get it playing nicely :)
[02:08] <mhall119> I need to finish stripping out my xubuntu-desktop dependencies
[02:08] <paultag> :)
[08:08] <dholbach> good morning
[08:53] <nigelb> 47
[08:53] <nigelb> bah
[14:35]  * paultag kicks feet up
[14:45] <czajkowski> >:(
[14:45]  * paultag waves to czajkowski over his piña colada
[14:46] <paultag> aloha :)
[14:47] <czajkowski> there are words for you mister! 
[14:47] <paultag> czajkowski: like "lovie-dovie" and "awesome"?
[14:47] <czajkowski> I never use the word awesome!
[14:47] <paultag> czajkowski: "totally bogus!"
[14:47] <paultag> or as we say: "to-bo"
[14:48] <paultag> more of a toe then a too/two
[14:48] <czajkowski> nutter