[12:25] <jussi> !virtualbox
[12:26] <jussi> !info virtualbox
[12:26] <jussi> !info virtualbox-ose
[12:27] <jussi> !virtualbox is <reply> Virtualbox is a virtualizer for x86 and amd64 architectures. It's available in the package "virtualbox" in the !repositories, and you can download the Virtualbox Extension Pack for additional, non-Free functionality at http://virtualbox.org . Additional details can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VirtualBox
[12:27] <jussi> oh bollocks, i need to add this cloak to the bot :(
[12:27] <jussi> someon add that.
[12:28] <pangolin> !virtualbox is <reply> Virtualbox is a virtualizer for x86 and amd64 architectures. It's available in the package "virtualbox" in the !repositories, and you can download the Virtualbox Extension Pack for additional, non-Free functionality at http://virtualbox.org . Additional details can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VirtualBox
[12:28] <pangolin> !no virtualbox is <reply> Virtualbox is a virtualizer for x86 and amd64 architectures. It's available in the package "virtualbox" in the !repositories, and you can download the Virtualbox Extension Pack for additional, non-Free functionality at http://virtualbox.org . Additional details can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VirtualBox
[14:27] <Pici> hrm. looks like Mint 12 is out.
[14:28] <pangolin> better download before they run out of copies
[14:29] <Pici> Just a heads up in the event we see increased mintsupport questions.
[17:36] <ikonia> beuno: hello ?
[17:37] <beuno> ikonia, hi
[17:38] <ikonia> can we help you with something (or are you here for a reason that I don't know about, in which case sorry)
[17:39] <beuno> ikonia, I've started hanging out here to try and help out with the IRCC transition
[17:39] <beuno> try and wrap my head around how things work around here
[17:39] <ikonia> what IRCC transition ?
[17:39] <ikonia> there is no transition
[17:40] <beuno> IRC Council
[17:40] <ikonia> there is no transition
[17:40] <beuno> ikonia, maybe I should start by saying, "Hi, I'm from the Community Council"
[17:40] <ikonia> ok,
[17:40] <ikonia> that doesn't change anything
[17:41] <beuno> ikonia, I'm sorry, what are you saying?
[17:42] <ikonia> I'm trying to find out a.) if there is something we can help you with b.) what transition you are talking about c.) is there a reason you are in this channel when it is a no idle channel
[17:42] <beuno> ikonia, I am here to understand a bit better how the IRC team is dealing with problems
[17:42] <ikonia> why ?
[17:42] <beuno> and IRC Council is being re-staffed
[17:42] <ikonia> who has asked for this ?
[17:42] <CarlFK> probably best to skim the logs
[17:43] <ikonia> yes, there haven't even been nominations, so there is no transition
[17:43] <ikonia> best to just explain it
[17:43] <beuno> CarlFK, no, I would rather be in the channel
[17:43] <ikonia> why ?
[17:44] <ikonia> beuno: who has asked for this, what is this about ?
[17:44] <beuno> because it's easier for me to read IRC as it happens than read 12 hours of logs
[17:44] <ikonia> why ?
[17:44] <ikonia> why do you need to be in this channel that has a no idle policy
[17:44] <CarlFK> beuno: regardless of what you would like, there is a policy that should be followed
[17:44] <ikonia> we don't allow others to sit in, why do you think you can just ignore it
[17:45] <ikonia> sorry my connection is dropping
[17:45] <ikonia> slow / broken responses
[17:46] <beuno> CarlFK, tell me about the purpose of the policy
[17:47] <CarlFK> this is not the place
[17:48] <beuno> CarlFK, ok, so to the point, my purpose here is to follow what's going on in the IRC world
[17:48] <ikonia> beuno: if the Commuity Council leaders feel there is something that needs to happen, please communicate it to the IRC
[17:48] <ikonia> darn it
[17:48] <ikonia> the IRC council
[17:49] <ikonia> beuno: the channel has a non-idle policy, that we'd ask you to respect, if you'd like to get exemption from this please communicate through the IRC council
[17:49]  * Pici is confused
[17:49] <ikonia> I am too
[17:49] <Pici> I think we should start over.
[17:49] <beuno> I'm sorry, I haven't said something needs to happen
[17:50] <beuno> I'm here because I don't have a good grasp of how things work in the IRC world, and would like to improve that
[17:50] <pleia2> the Community Council has to help with restaffing the IRCC, certainly there shouldn't be a problem with us being here to get a better feel for the team
[17:50] <Pici> We have historically allowed CC members to idle here, and I don't think that it would hurt to not wait for IRCC approval in this case.
[17:50] <pleia2> we aren't exactly the sort that the no idling policy was trying to keep out :)
[17:51] <ikonia> no, your not
[17:51] <pleia2> Pici: agreed
[17:51] <beuno> now, I'm worried about the aggresiveness of this policy
[17:51] <beuno> :)
[17:51] <LjL> yeah, you're not the first helpful person who's had to leave this channel
[17:51] <LjL> the policy has its limits
[17:52] <LjL> i suggest we ignore the policy this time :)
[17:52] <ikonia> why ?
[17:52] <ikonia> communicate that someone would like to join the channel
[17:52] <ikonia> it's just manners
[17:52] <ikonia> explain the reasoning
[17:53] <CarlFK> beuno: some quick googling found https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2010-February/000893.html which even has my personal take.
[17:54] <Pici> beuno:While we don't exactly have a script that we follow when dealing with troublemakers, we like to not have comments from "the crowd" when trying to resolve issues.  Thats the reason why the policy is in place.
[17:54] <beuno> Pici, sure, makes a lot of sense
[17:54] <beuno> which is why I haven't said a word in this channel  ;)
[17:55] <ikonia> which is why it would be nice if this was explained beyond "I want to"
[17:55] <Pici> There was also suspicion in the past that visitors were using idleness in here to coordinate attacks on our channels.
[17:55] <beuno> right, which clearly I'm not
[17:55] <Pici> Aye.
[17:55] <beuno> ikonia, I don't think the aggressive nature of this policy fits in well with the overall spirit of the project
[17:56] <ikonia> beuno: I don't write the policy, I disagree with a great many
[17:56] <beuno> at the very least, not in the way it's being implemented
[17:56] <ikonia> beuno: however, it's nice to know you think that after 1 day of idling in here
[17:56] <beuno> right, imagine all the great things that'll happen after a few weeks!
[17:57] <ikonia> beuno: I don't think joining a channel with a no-idle policy not syaing anything or explaining to anyone why you are here fits well with the spirit of the project
[17:57] <ikonia> especially from a communicty council member
[17:57] <Pici> hrm
[17:57] <CarlFK> or someone impersonating...
[17:57] <beuno> I'm authed and all that jazz
[17:57]  * Pici hits everyone with a tin-foil hat
[17:57] <beuno> you guys should know that by now  :)
[17:58] <beuno> so, this isn't great
[17:58]  * maco joins pici
[17:58] <beuno> you can't be this aggresive for no good reason
[17:58] <beuno> we'll need to work on improving this with the new IRCC
[17:58] <maco> this is like telling dholbach to gtfo
[17:59] <ikonia> no it's not
[17:59] <LjL> jussi, topyli, come here real quiiick
[18:00] <ikonia> beuno: how would I go about improving the commuinication from the CC ?
[18:00] <ikonia> I think we'll need to improve that with the new CC members
[18:00] <CarlFK> I don't think there is anything wrong with telling anyone to follow the policy
[18:01] <ikonia> or asking why they are here
[18:01] <ikonia> "because I want to" isn't a good answer
[18:01] <maco> is the IRCC parallel to or delegated by the CC?
[18:01] <LjL> delegated
[18:01] <maco> then having the CC take a look around makes fine sense to me
[18:02] <ikonia> I have no issue with someone joining the channel,
[18:02] <ikonia> I don't appreciate the criqiue on a reasonable question and the lack of communication
[18:02] <ikonia> crique
[18:02] <ikonia> darn it
[18:02] <ikonia> critque
[18:02] <maco> critique
[18:02] <ikonia> thank you
[18:03] <ikonia> my connection is dropping
[18:03] <beuno> I don't think enforcing policy blindly, and this aggresivly is a good way to drive the project
[18:04] <CarlFK> beuno: this is not the place for that discussion \
[18:04] <Pici> guys
[18:04] <Pici> gals
[18:05] <LjL> CarlFK: where is the place then?
[18:05] <Pici> We've used this channel in the past to discuss such things. Its not busy now.
[18:06] <CarlFK> LjL: the ml I linked to seems like a good start
[18:07] <LjL> it's one's own choice to use a ML or an IRC channel for a discussion like this...
[18:07] <LjL> if this is not the place, then #ubuntu-irc is, but one or the other must be
[18:08] <Pici> For long-term discussion of an issue, the ML is perfect. I personally think its ridiculous to not let a senior member of the community idle here because they want to see what we do, even if our policies don't explicitly define that as possible.
[18:09] <LjL> for that matter, it was ridiculous to stop people like mc44 from being here
[18:09]  * maco hung out here til she was asked to be an op
[18:09] <Pici> So did I.
[18:09] <LjL> really this says a lot about bureaucracy and policy methinks :)
[18:10] <Pici> LjL: indeed.
[18:12] <Myrtti> maco: so did I, but that was a long, long, LONG time ago.
[18:12] <Pici> Myrtti: you're not that old
[18:12] <Myrtti> well, if I remember correctly, it was over four years ago.
[18:13] <Myrtti> and a lot of things have happened in the meantime.
[18:13] <Myrtti> in both personal, community and industry timescale.
[18:18] <beuno> I worry that you guys have to do a very important and super stressful job, and have to walk a thin line to get the right balance
[18:18] <beuno> and that maybe some things have gotten too extreme
[18:19]  * LjL is zen
[18:19] <LjL> except when he goes berserk
[18:19] <Myrtti> well there seems to be some communication problems both inside the ops establishment and to and from it.
[18:20] <ikonia> test
[18:20] <LjL> failed
[18:21] <ikonia> it did, the connection dropped again
[18:40] <Corey> I hung out here, but that's because I was "special."
[18:41] <maco> Corey: so perpetually in trouble there was no point in you /part'ing?
[18:41] <Corey> In unrelated news: http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/i/icinga/ <-- Hey, a package I want!  What do I need to have in sources.list to reflect this?
[18:41] <Corey> maco: I'm still in trouble. :)
[18:41] <maco> that package is in universe for maverick, natty, oneiric, and precise
[18:42] <Corey> maco: Insert profanity here.
[18:42] <Pici> What do we think about someone asking for help using debmirror on suse?
[18:42] <ikonia> doesn't suse use a different layout ?
[18:42] <ikonia> for the repos
[18:42] <Corey> Pici: I'd give a pointer or two, but not go out of my way to assist.
[18:43] <oCean> hey, what did I miss :p
[18:43] <Pici> Corey: I mean in #ubuntu
[18:43] <Pici> oCean: :O
[18:43]  * oCean always misses out on all the fun
[18:45] <Corey> Pici: Quite.
[18:45] <Corey> SO did I.
[18:55] <Daviey> beuno: Just FYI, some of the ops are talking in the back channel with concerns about you being here, and your attitude.
[18:57] <Pici> FYI: the CC was invited to idle there as well.
[18:59] <LjL> meh seriously
[19:01] <beuno> I'm only really concerned about our external-facing issues, what goes on in private team channels is, well, my definition private
[19:01] <oCean> beuno: may I suggest you join #ubuntu channel? That's were the actual action is
[19:03] <beuno> oCean, I don't think I'm ready to drink from the firehose just yet!  but I'm ramping up slowly, so I'll get there  :)
[19:04] <oCean> beuno: I don't see how you will benefit from being here and not in the core channel. If you want to get an idea of what *this* channel is about, you should be in #ubuntu at least
[19:04] <oCean> beuno: this channel deals with "what goes wrong" in the main channel(s)
[19:05] <Pici> beuno: agreed. If we're successful, then things don't need to escalate to this channel.
[19:05] <oCean> beuno: let me ask, what do you expect from this channel? As this is *not* the team channel for operators
[19:05] <beuno> oCean, yeah, which is a good place to start. It's low traffic and deals with problems, I can easily look up the log when a problem arises, wrap my head around it
[19:06] <beuno> but point taken, I can join #ubuntu as well
[19:06] <beuno> oCean, I don't have any expectations, it just seems like the IRC world has been a bit rocky lately and I wanted to understand the way it worked before forming an opinion
[19:07] <CarlFK> beuno: one of the things that makes it rocky is people asking for exceptions
[19:08] <beuno> CarlFK, I see. So my idling here is creating problems?
[19:08] <CarlFK> yes.
[19:08] <Myrtti> depends on the viewpoint
[19:09] <CarlFK> it is taking up my time.
[19:10] <Pici> Seriously?
[19:10] <CarlFK> it is slowing me down from figuring out how to stream video
[19:10] <CarlFK> yes.
[19:13] <oCean> beuno: I think it's a good idea to actually be part of this like you're trying to do, I have no issues with that at all. But you have to realize that it iss mostly "us organizing ourself" what's rocky, not the actual day-to-day channel operations
[19:13] <oCean> this channel is only for the latter part
[19:14] <Pici> CarlFK: I don't know what you're talking about. Despite the absense of any IRCC member, but the testimony of two CC members you still think that it bears discussion (that is taking up your time) to debate that the CC (which delegates control to the IRCC) cannot idle in 'our' channel?
[19:15] <beuno> oCean, yeap, thanks for the insight
[19:15] <czajkowski> Pici: aloha :)
[19:15] <Pici> czajkowski: howdy
[19:16] <CarlFK> Pici: yes
[19:18] <Pici> Then I don't have anything further I could add at this time.
[19:20] <ikonia> good, now the whole council is joining, excellent way to respond
[19:23] <pleia2> ikonia: we'll be following up with the IRCC
[19:24] <ikonia> following up what ?
[19:24] <pleia2> clarifying the CC excemption to the no idling policy
[19:25] <ikonia> it's not a massive deal, just some communication would have been nice
[19:25] <ikonia> more so as it's one of hte complaints the current IRCC gets
[19:25] <pleia2> I assumed this was settled since dholbach and I have been here for a while
[19:25] <ikonia> you can see why,
[19:25] <czajkowski> ikonia: people would complaing that the CC is idling in here to learn more about how the IRCC works?
[19:25] <czajkowski> really ?
[19:25] <ikonia> czajkowski: no, no-one said that,
[19:26] <ikonia> pleia2: you're ops in core channels are you not ?
[19:26] <pleia2> ikonia: I am not
[19:26] <pleia2> never have been
[19:26] <Myrtti> I thought -women is a core channel
[19:26] <Myrtti> my mistake
[19:26] <dax> Myrtti: it isn't
[19:26] <pleia2> Myrtti: nope
[19:27] <Myrtti> or rather one of the... hm, how to say it in unambiguous way...
[19:27] <dax> I thought you had ops in #xubuntu for some reason, personally :\
[19:27] <ikonia> there is no issue with the members being here, however a message to introduce yourself and why you are here beyond "because I want to"
[19:27] <ikonia> pleia2: then I was mistaken I too thought -women was a core channel now to, again it's been back and forth so often I don't know
[19:27] <Pici> (to be honest I didn't recognize beuno as CC member until he mentioned it)
[19:28] <ikonia> but I do like the response of one council member gets questioned so you all join
[19:28] <ikonia> good to know the council are above being questioned
[19:28] <beuno> it has nothing to do with questioning
[19:28] <beuno> it has to do with being aggressive
[19:28] <Pici> I don't think thats the case.
[19:29] <Myrtti> "a channel that has historically needed to be closely guarded and monitored to assure the quality and sanity of the channel space"
[19:29] <Pici> er, that was to ikonia.
[19:29] <ikonia> I guessed
[19:30] <beuno> this is not the general spirit of the project, so there's genuine concern that it's not raising red flags in this neck of the woods
[19:31] <ikonia> beuno: you have been in the channel for 1 day and you are raising red flags
[19:32] <beuno> you guys have a very hard, stressful and thank-less job, but we still need to make sure the well-intentioned spirit of the project is being spread
[19:32] <beuno> ikonia, well, it would be zero days if it were up to you!
[19:32] <ikonia> do you not think that's a bit of an agressive reaction
[19:33] <Myrtti> timeout guys
[19:33] <ikonia> beuno: no-one said that
[19:33] <Myrtti> coffee time
[19:33] <Myrtti> or tea if that floats your boat better
[19:34] <ikonia> beuno: I asked you why you where here and to follow the process as you just "told me" you where going to idle here
[19:34] <ikonia> that raises red flags to me as a lack of communication from the council
[19:34] <ikonia> then all of a sudden the rest of the council joined
[19:34] <ikonia> it's almost like.....trying to prove a point
[19:35] <pleia2> one other council member joined because there was a discussion happening about an issue
[19:35] <pleia2> that is not "the rest of the council"
[19:35] <ikonia> fair enough
[19:36] <ikonia> but I am not happy about being acuseed of trying to have beuno removed
[19:36] <pleia2> we'll get this clarified, but I assure you it was not malicious in intent
[19:36] <ikonia> pleia2: there isn't a need for clarification (although I welcome you getting it)
[19:36] <pleia2> or to prove a point
[19:36] <pleia2> I agree with you that communication needs to be improved
[19:37] <ikonia> a simple request for a member to follow the process as even resulted in "Hi, I'm from the council I will idle here"
[19:37] <ikonia> then a string of critique
[19:37] <ikonia> "we'll need to improve $X"
[19:37] <ikonia> and then making suggestions that I don't want someone here
[19:38] <Pici> (I need to get some work done here, but I am still interested in how this turns out, will be reading the backlog later)
[19:38] <pleia2> unfortunately the anti-idling policy does have an implied "why are you here, go away" feel to it, even if that isn't the intent
[19:38] <ikonia> then finally accusing me of not being in the spirit
[19:38] <ikonia> pleia2: I don't agree with all the policies, hell I complain about a ton of them
[19:38] <ikonia> that doesn't mean just ignore them
[19:38] <pleia2> ikonia: I know
[19:39] <ikonia> but I am pretty annoyed with being told I am not in the spirit of the project
[19:39] <ikonia> and "red flags" being raised
[19:39] <ikonia> I find it pretty insulting
[19:39] <pleia2> I need to get back to work as well
[19:39] <CarlFK> ikonia: welcome to IRC :)
[19:40] <ikonia> I find that a pretty big red flags for the council
[21:07] <reisio> oCean: I didn't tell anyone to google anything
[21:07] <oCean> and I told you that google and/or lmgtfy are not acceptable support offerings
[21:07] <oCean> attackd0gz: how can we help you?
[21:07] <reisio> oCean: according to what?
[21:08] <reisio> you're telling me that in the complete absence of help, someone giving someone a link to information that will help them is not allowed?
[21:08] <reisio> according to what?
[21:08] <attackd0gz> I am just checking things out.... first time on IRC I'll let you two be
[21:08] <attackd0gz> thanks though
[21:08] <oCean> attackd0gz: this channel has a no-idling policy
[21:09] <oCean> reisio: yes, that is correct. Google, even the results of a certain search, might not be helpful.
[21:09] <Myrtti> reisio: it's assumed that you've atleast had the minimum courtesy of checking the links you offer yourself, preferably have tested that the advice is sound, and for best results give only at the minimum semiofficial ubuntu support site URLs
[21:10] <reisio> I did check the results
[21:10] <Myrtti> lmgtfy is just plain rude
[21:10] <reisio> I didn't lmgtfy
[21:10] <reisio> dear god
[21:10] <Myrtti> I didn't say you did
[21:10] <Myrtti> I just said it's rude
[21:11] <reisio> so are a lot of things not relevant to this discussion...
[21:11] <reisio> if you don't want people to ever link to google, put it in the rules please
[21:11] <reisio> it is not there right now
[21:11] <Myrtti> "when helping, be helpful" can be extended to ...
[21:11] <oCean> nvm
[21:11] <Myrtti> oh well, back to my audiobook.