[00:01] <ibeardslee> gee today is a "don't talk about .." day isn't it?
[00:02] <ibeardslee> banks, december .. anything else?
[00:03] <ojwb> elections?
[00:03] <ajmitch> counting down to the next election already?
[00:04] <ibeardslee> well the revolution anyway
[00:04] <ojwb> on the plus side, at least it's only 3 years here
[00:10] <ibeardslee> and in that time the retards that are in have plety of time to sell our assets and soverignty to foreign corporates
[00:11] <hads> THe banks go out of their way to look good in public saying "We'll cover any fraudulent charges on your card". In reality they take the money back off the retailer so they aren't out of pocket.
[00:11] <hads> Asking their merchant services for more support to combat fraud this morning was met with "Not our problem" :(
[00:12] <ojwb> really, the public end up paying through higher prices
[00:14] <G> hads: yeah I saw on Twitter, that really sucks
[00:14] <ojwb> ibeardslee: yeah, but think of the damage they could do in 4 or 5 years
[00:14] <G> hads: what did the ASB Twitter people say in the end?
[00:15]  * ojwb wonders when moaning about stuff on twitter became the only way to actually get companies to do stuff
[00:15] <hads> G: No response yet.
[00:15] <hads> ojwb: I know. Sad. It works though.
[00:15] <G> ojwb: I don't know, but I found the magic of twitter in `09 with Telstra Australia
[00:18] <G> for some reason my landline account was setup as a "Sole Trader" account, which meant that I couldn't use their online services etc site. Telstra owned shops & call centres etc, were all "There is nothing we can do without disconnecting everything and reconnecting everything, but it'll break your ADSL completely" somehow their Twitter people fixed it near instantly
[00:18] <hads> heh
[00:18] <G> (with no disruption to any services as well)
[00:19] <G> but yeah, they'd get like 5 people out in their shop to look at my account and just come up with "I don't know"
[00:19]  * ojwb wonders what telstra clear will be like this weekend with free data
[00:20] <ojwb> at least they don't peer much, so hopefully it should affect the rest of us
[00:20] <G> is there anything on iPredict? :P
[00:20] <G> ojwb: I thought they peered a lot
[00:20] <ojwb> aren't they famous for not peering?
[00:20] <ojwb> perhaps I'm confused
[00:21] <G> ojwb: iirc they don't peer in APE/WIX/etc but they peer with other ISPs to provide international transit
[00:21]  * ojwb adds a "not" after "should" above
[00:21] <ojwb> ah
[00:21] <ojwb> that'll be what I'm thinking of I guess
[00:21] <G> http://www.adslgeek.com/isps/nzispmap
[00:21] <G> although that looks outdated
[00:21] <G> I saw a better/different one recently
[00:22] <G> ahhh: http://www.ispmap.co.nz/topmap.html is the one I was thinking of
[00:26]  * ojwb wonders if odyssey are shifted right just to fit it in less vertical space
[00:26] <G> ojwb: I think so, but I'm pretty certain there are some errors there
[00:26] <ojwb> the line routing algorithm isn't the best either
[00:26] <ibeardslee> their peering is shit
[00:27] <G> because iirc Orcon are now buying direct from Southern Cross, and doing all that stuff themselves (so they should now be an Orange Box)
[00:27] <ibeardslee> on my telstraclear cable it is quicker to get my ubuntu updates from Australia than any of the local mirrors
[00:27] <ojwb> G: for how long? that's dated march
[00:27] <lifeless> G: thankyouthankyouthankyou
[00:28] <G> ojwb: it was sometime around March that happened iirc, remember reading up on it on Twitter
[00:28] <G> lifeless: for the map? no problem
[00:28] <ojwb> yeah, it's useful to have, even if perhaps not fully up to date
[00:29] <lifeless> G: I've been looking to find anyone other than xtra but getting precious little data
[00:30] <lifeless> G: this gives me a place to start digging from
[00:30] <G> lifeless: I find Xtra/Telecom to be pretty good data wise... that said, I only get 2Mbps to the exchange, so that might have a bearing
[00:31] <lifeless> G: I can't get > ~0.2MBps from overseas
[00:31] <lifeless> G: gaming etc has shocking packet loss
[00:31] <lifeless> G: and to boot their ADSL pop appears to reboot or something several times a day
[00:32] <G> oh the other thing with that map that I'm not sure about, is the Actrix entry, pretty sure they always got their data (except in teh Go Large days) from TelstraClear
[00:32] <G> lifeless: wow, that doesn't sound right, (silly question, but it's not the house wiring right?)
[00:33] <lifeless> G: they have line tested it several times... no fault found
[00:34] <lifeless> G: intra-NZ traffic I can pull 10-15MBps
[00:34] <G> lifeless: I'm in the process of going postal on the phone line in my house atm, doing a DIY Central Splitter installation to boycott the rubbish in-house wiring etc
[00:35] <G> lifeless: odd, but the reboots would be the worst bit imo right?  Have they reset the port you are on/changed it etc?
[00:35] <ojwb> I suspect much in-house phone cabling has been good enough for a phone extension, but adsl pushes it rather more
[00:35] <lifeless> G: I don't know - its a bit hard to get through to the righ tpeople
[00:35] <lifeless> G: you have to fight through a malaysian helpdesk first
[00:35] <G> lifeless: apparently if you contact via the website you go direct to L2
[00:36] <ojwb> shiboleet!
[00:36] <lifeless> G: !
[00:36] <ojwb> sadly I suspect that rarely actually works, as the front line probably don't read xkcd
[00:36] <G> lifeless: I heard that on Geekzone, no idea how accurate that is/if it still happens, but wouldn't be surprised
[00:37] <G> lifeless: I also find that ringing Telecom at ~2pm avoids the Malaysian call centre (not sure if that applys to the Xtra helpdesk or not though)
[00:38] <ojwb> heh
[00:39] <ojwb> is that middle of the night there/
[00:39] <ojwb> timezone still do my head in
[00:40] <G> ojwb: yeah, well the house wiring here is older than me, (has been updated over time) but I'm assuming the person that did it, was also the sparkie that wired the mains etc
[00:41] <ojwb> adsl has to be one of the most successful (particularly in terms of number of deployments) hacks in history
[00:42] <G> Spotted a great 'oddity' in the wiring the other week... wall lights next to the bed in a bedroom, are on a completely different circuit (we have no idea which) to the ceiling light in the same room
[00:43] <G> the other one I 'like' is that, the lighting circuits, are based on either the far side of the house, or the near side ofthe house to the breaker board, not based on upstairs/downstairs (and there are even more exceptions to that)
[00:44] <ojwb> wall lights and ceiling lights on different circuits is fairly common in my experience
[00:44] <ojwb> (also useful sometimes)
[00:44] <G> ojwb: but that would likely mean that they'd have to be on the power-point circuits I think (by process of elimination)
[00:45] <ojwb> the near/far sounds creative though
[00:45] <ojwb> G: that's not so good
[00:45] <ojwb> the main oddity in our wiring is the number of light switches which don't seem to do anything
[00:46] <G> ojwb: iirc there are only two lighting circuit breakers, so it'd be a bit odd to wire a light in the far near side to the far side circuit :P
[00:47] <G> but yeah, the best is the phone wiring, the phone wiring basically does a complete loop of the house before it gets to the 'office' that the modem is located
[00:47] <G> there must be something crazy like 20-30m of telephone cable in the house before the modem, and I bet some is sitting next to mains cables
[00:58] <ojwb> standard practice in the UK seemed to be to just run it along the top of the skirting and up/across/down at every doorway - cheaper and less disruptive to install I guess, and pre adsl the length of the run wasn't a big issue
[01:01] <G> ojwb: yeah, at least in NZ Telecom from a very early point developed pretty decent standards
[01:02] <ojwb> was it always legal here to wire your own phone cabling?
[01:02] <ojwb> (actually, is it now?)
[01:02] <G> ojwb: I've got a feeling it has been, from the demarc point you can do whatever you want
[01:02] <G> ojwb: yep
[01:03] <G> ojwb: but the point from where you can wire can be messy
[01:03] <G> depends which document you read, and how you read it, (went through this issue myself)
[01:06] <G> (a quick summary, because I'm heading out in a sec: one document says from the first jackpoint, the document that replaced the first, says from where the cable enters the house, the third document which replaces the 2nd for new work, goes back to the first documents rules, but the 2nd document says you can ignor ethe 3rd document for existing wiring if you want)
[01:07] <ojwb> it'll probably be hard to prove when you did it for existing wiring anyway
[01:08] <G> ojwb: I can explain it in a bit mor edetail later if you ar einterested, but yeah, I had a headache after reading everything
[01:08] <ojwb> i think I might just ask if it ever becomes relevant...
[01:17] <mwhudson> http://www.ispmap.co.nz/topmap.html is interesting
[01:18] <mwhudson> i wonder if reach have stopped screwing up telstra's routing yet
[01:59] <chilts> copyright 1995-2005 ... he's been doing it a while, but maybe stopped updating it now?
[02:03] <ojwb> or not updating the copyright dates
[02:03] <ojwb> says "Generated 30 March 2011"
[02:18] <hads> Just in case anyone needs to find out if a domain is a free email provider, I received a list of 28k domains; http://quick.nice.net.nz/freemail/?domain=hotmail.com
[02:20]  * ojwb wonders how good a list it is
[02:24] <hads> Me too. If it covers $SOME I'll take it, I'm just using it for scoring.
[02:44] <ojwb> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10770047
[02:45] <ojwb> hads: not really looked at spam, but at least for attempts to sign up to trac, it seems to be almost all gmail or throw away domains
[02:46] <ojwb> sadly gmail is split between spammers and a significant proportion of genuine users
[03:36] <hads> Yeah, same with orders, hence the whole scoring and flaging thing.
[03:40] <ojwb> in case you haven't seen them, there are various site to track forum spammers - not sure how well the addresses and IPs would correspond to what you'll get though
[03:40] <ojwb> e.g. http://www.stopforumspam.com/
[03:41] <ojwb> http://quick.nice.net.nz/freemail/?domain=mailinator.com says "False"
[03:49] <hads> Cheers. This side of things is mostly to combat stolen credit cards being used by New Zealanders so probably not a lot of overlap there.
[03:52]  * ajmitch shall remember to not order anything using a free email account then :)
[03:52]  * ojwb is wondering if this was why ascent seemed so paranoid about the laptop I bought from them
[03:52] <ajmitch> you paid by credit card using a free account?
[03:57] <ojwb> i think I probably used my gmail account for that - i tend to as places you buy stuff from seem to love to add you to their mailing list
[03:57] <ojwb> and it can be really hard to get off
[03:57] <ajmitch> yeah, I seem to have got onto some australian daily deals newsletter
[03:58] <ajmitch> so that got flagged as spam
[03:58] <ojwb> yeah, I figure getting such people onto google's spam filter list is at least some revenge
[03:59] <ojwb> btw, I seem to be getting spam as a result of attending cloudcamp in wellington
[03:59] <ojwb> so be wary of giving a useful email address if you go to one
[03:59] <ojwb> wasn't all that interesting really either
[04:00] <hads> I think the highest scoring variable will be what country the credit card comes from. Getting the database for that is a bit of a mission though.
[04:00] <ojwb> mostly seemed to be mike riversdale repeatedly asserting that if you aren't paying for it, it's not worth anything
[04:00] <ojwb> ... at and event he's attending for free
[04:00]  * ajmitch looks for new toys to buy
[04:01] <ojwb> i think he tried to build a business on google wave and suspect he is rather bitter about it
[04:01] <ajmitch> ah, early adopters
[04:02] <ojwb> something like that
[04:02] <ojwb> it does pay to think exactly what's going on when you get something for nothing
[04:02] <ajmitch> getting burnt by failed products must be a pain
[04:04]  * ojwb does wonder about the wisdom of companies who direct costumers to their facebook and twitter pages directly - seems to be giving a lot of power to a company you've no real relationship with
[04:05] <hads> Indeed
[06:09] <G> hads: surely it's just the BIN numbers (first 6 digits, I could provide say 3-4 bin numbers for instance if you want toa start compiling a list
[06:11] <G> ojwb: Apache Foundation have a wave compilant server though, so it's not all lost really
[06:11] <ojwb> G: it's not google wave hype compliant though...
[06:12] <G> true, saying "This product revolves around a product that Google invented then dumped" isn't a good selling point I guess :P
[07:37] <chilts> I just wasn't ever impressed by wave - it was a Friday afternoon gimmick and then I never used it again
[07:37] <chilts> _far_ _too_ _slow_
[10:01] <hads> G: Yup, just the BIN numbers compared to issuing banks. You can buy a database online for $$$. I asked the bank to help but they wouldn't give it up for "security" reasons.
[10:02] <ojwb> i guess you could compile a list of the prefixes which have been regularly used in past good transactions
[10:02] <ojwb> or you could start to, hopefully you aren't keeping the numbers around
[10:03] <hads> Yeah, not keeping numbers around.
[10:03] <G> hads: yeah, if you want I can send you a sample of ones that I have around the house/know to start a collection
[10:04] <hads> G: Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know if I decide to go down that route. There are a couple places you can look up for free online manually too.
[10:05] <G> hads: most iirc restrict that to non-commercial interests etc, and I bet they aren't as up to date on NZ ones etc
[10:05] <hads> There are a couple of commercial databases that claim to be up to date.
[10:06] <hads> There's also MaxMind who offer a API for a small cost.
[10:06] <G> yeah, the MaxMind one would prob be not bad
[18:26] <chilts> morning
[18:28] <ibeardslee> morning
[18:28] <ibeardslee> damn spent too long opening other windows first
[19:18] <Atamira> morning
[19:33] <mwhudson> morning
[19:54] <hads> morning
[19:58] <ajmitch> morning
[20:35]  * sadsun waves
[20:42] <ojwb> morning
[20:48] <chilts> TFI Friday! :)
[20:51] <ibeardslee> heh .. so in a way I'm glad I haven't got too carried away with the arduino project stuff I was wanting to do
[20:54] <chilts> how come?
[20:54] <ibeardslee> 1.0 has just been released .. and I would have got myself too confused
[20:55] <ajmitch> how different is it?
[20:55] <ibeardslee> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/12/arduino-1-0-is-out-heres-what-you-need-to-know.html
[21:37] <thumper> morning
[21:54]  * ibeardslee carries on abuse the fuck out of ubuntu/thunderbird/lightning
[21:59] <ibeardslee> has anyone been able to completely replace evolution with thunderbird/lightning?
[21:59] <ibeardslee> I'm still stuck needing evolution for calendars
[22:01] <ajmitch> nope, I tend to use google calendar
[22:02] <ajmitch> though only for work, I'm not exactly a heavy user of it
[22:04] <hads> Yeah, I use Google calendar too, working by myself I don't rely on a calendar much though.
[22:05] <ibeardslee> we have a calendar server internally that has the meeting rooms, team schedules etc
[22:11] <ojwb> thunderbird and lightning? very very frightening...
[22:12] <ojwb> karora knows a bit about calendaring I hear
[22:12] <ibeardslee> yeah, we are using the DAViCal server
[22:13] <ibeardslee> but it's a lightning/gnome/unity issue
[22:13] <ojwb> ah, ok
[22:15] <ibeardslee> the date time applet in the bar up top can display events in the calendar .. but not the lightning calendar .. can't make it the default calendar in Oneiric
[22:15] <ibeardslee> this might be the solution .. http://mikeconley.ca/blog/2011/08/11/fiddling-with-an-eds-provider-for-lightning-calendar/
[22:16] <ibeardslee> I think I'll just roll back to evolution and deal with the can't create imap folders a different way
[22:16] <hads> Why can't it create IMAP folders? I'm think it can here.
[22:18] <ibeardslee> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/878460
[22:18] <ibeardslee> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/862677
[22:18] <ibeardslee> using imap+ seems to create an evolution that doesn't work here
[22:23] <hads> Hadn't heard of IMAP+ I might fire up Evolution and have a look.
[22:24] <hads> Second stage anti-fraud tool underway, phone number lookups; http://quick.nice.net.nz/phone/?number=039749011
[22:29] <G> hads: nice one
[22:30] <G> hads: assuming that is from the NAD database?
[22:31] <hads> G: Yup
[22:35] <hads> G: Stuff for you from CDL will be shipping to me today.
[22:35]  * ojwb wonders how "talks to me on IRC" factors into hads' new customer vetting system
[22:38] <hads> heh, instant clearance :)
[22:43] <hads> ibeardslee: Switched to IMAP+ it works after I realised that when I did so it changed the port from 993 to 143
[22:43] <ibeardslee> .. .. oh maybe that's what went wrong
[22:49] <hads> I stopped using Evolution a little while ago when it kept getting confused moving emails from one IMAP account to another. It would move them, then next time it refreshed sometimes they would be back again so a copy in each account. Perhaps IMAP+ will fix that.
[22:57] <G> hads: CDL?
[22:57] <G> hads: oh Dynamix, right
[22:58] <G> hads: thanks
[23:00] <G> hads: I forgot they go by two different business names, but it's all working out good, got a call from the ones that I'm getting the PDL stuff from that the other part of what I need is ready to pick up