[00:05] that would require a lot of work, and have a distinctly different look and feel from desktop Unity [00:09] AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html added a Dash with Filter [00:12] nice [00:12] filters might work well for the TV schedule lens [00:13] yeah [00:23] added search in the dash with onscreen keyboard [00:24] On the etherpad you mean mhall119 ? [00:24] Btw, aloha =) [00:27] mhall119: oooo, I like the on screen keyboard [00:27] and onboard can totally do that [00:33] mhall119; it looks pretty good so far =) [00:44] AlanBell: it's a screenshot of Maliit [00:44] https://wiki.maliit.org/Screenshots [00:45] thanks MrChrisDruif [00:45] How did you come to know of Ubuntu TV mhall119 ? [00:46] MrChrisDruif: I was at UDS-P when Mark announced it, along with tablet, phone and cars [00:46] then I saw Mark's blog about what Alan was doing, and thought I'd join in the fun [00:47] IVI, not just cars [00:47] Ah, grand designer AlanBell ;-) [00:49] he is [00:50] Haha, don't let him hear it =') [00:53] AlanBell: do you have a problem with me putting my remote into the template file in bzr? [01:29] AlanBell: MrChrisDruif: What do you guys think of the "Program Info" slide? http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html# [01:29] mhall119; what page? [01:29] nv, page 2 [01:29] yup [01:30] I like it, but I'd have to think about it. Look good so far =) [01:30] Maybe a bit busy in the top bar? [01:30] maybe, that's the Unity top panel though [01:30] I know [01:31] implementation will be tricky, since the top panel is Unity, but the progress overlay is whatever playback app is used, and the one button press needs to trigger both [01:31] How do you mean? [01:32] Btw, I'm almost of to hit the sack, 2:32 AM here [01:32] 2 apps will need to consume the same keypress event [01:32] That's not very difficult I think [01:32] I'm not sure if X (or Wayland) have a way of doing that, of if one of the apps will have to explicitly pass the key event on to the other [01:33] Same are starting to programs in terminal with a single "command" [01:33] But that is a concern for later I think? [01:34] a concern for someone else anyway, and that's enough for me :) [01:34] We are now in the "dream" phase as I like to call it. Creating storyboards of what we'd like to see happen and look [01:36] I think I'll add Ubuntu Phone/Tablet to my storyboard =) [01:37] They keep bugging on the mailing-list about a desktop-mode...screw that, we don't need that on the TV [01:37] With my storyboard they'll understand ;-) [01:42] I don't understand what they wanted different "modes" for [01:43] and the whole "It's just a large-screened PC" bit was just...wrong [01:44] a TV on the other side of the room has the same arc width as a small screen netbook [01:44] of a phone, if you're like me and still have an old SD-TV [01:44] or a phone [01:46] the biggest TV that would fit in my entertainment center would, from the distance of my couch, be equivilent to a 7-9 inch screen on my lap [01:48] or about the same as a phone in my hand [01:50] Yeah, the bigger the better in my opinion, but still that's not to the point [01:52] What I'm thinking about if there really IS the need for making it a second big screen the tablet, then share it from the tablet to the TV instead of making some kind of wacky desktop mode on the tv [02:02] AlanBell; I should just disregard those early png's you created before Pencil? [02:05] MrChrisDruif: you sure those aren't PNGs exported from Pencil? which ones are you referring to? [02:06] I'm sure, I'm referring (among 2 others) to this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/progresspanel.png [02:06] ew, tubbies [02:06] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/programlens.png && http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/controlsinpanel.png as well [02:06] but that looks like it was made in Pencil too [02:06] So yes, I'm pretty sure ;-) [02:07] But at least before the "default template" [02:07] yeah [02:19] MrChrisDruif, I agree, I don't want a full desktop on the TV. Although it would be neat to have an app that either A) acted as an extension of the laptop/tablet/netbook, or B) would display a shared application from the laptop/tablet/netbook [02:20] So yeah, I'll have to get cracking with my storyboard and share it with them. I think they will like it ;-) [02:20] MrChrisDruif, I disagree. Some may like it, but I'm getting the feeling some people won't accept anything but a full blown desktop replacement [02:21] Haha, true that =') [02:30] But I don't think we should that one let him let his way, it [02:30] 's a TV for crying out loud [02:31] Damn you ' =') [02:32] Anyhow... [02:33] * MrChrisDruif is off to bed, but let's his client run. If you got something, just ping me [02:37] tgm4883: Yeah, we shouldn't make the TV, just a desktop [02:38] That said, we should approach this from a standpoint of changing the UI to be suited to the TV environment rather than limiting what the TV can do. [02:40] Hey, is the irclog at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/30/%23ubuntu-tv.txt? [02:41] Because the last update to it was at 23:41 [02:41] How up to date is that? [02:44] imnichol: It seems to be about an hour old at most [02:44] Ok [02:44] Thanks [02:46] imnichol: actually no [02:46] It looks like it's 3 hours old [02:47] which is more than it was the other day for me [02:47] after 23:59, it goes to /2011/12/01/ [02:47] mhall119 is right [02:47] so check the next day [02:48] Ahah [02:48] mhall119: just looked at your mockup [02:48] Wow, I'm dumb [02:48] mhall119: mostly I like it [02:49] Though I'd like to avoid typing when I don't have a good qwerty keyboard around [02:50] MrChrisDruif, what did you think of Ian Nicholson's suggestion of allowing the full repos to be enabled? [02:50] (I'm Ian Nicholson) [02:51] dmj726: I'd agree, but the dash has a search field, so I thought I'd show how it would be used [02:51] unfortunately, Unity is very search-driven, which is going to be difficult to use without a keyboard [02:51] mhall119: I have a simple mockup of a structure to avoid the need when you haven't already typed stuff [02:52] dmj726: did you read the caption below? it only goes there when you click the search button on the remote, otherwise it's all navigation by arrow buttons [02:53] mhall119: yes I read it, but I missed that [02:54] imnichol: I'd suggest something different actually [02:55] So have the full repos enabled by default, but have some metadata in packages that indicates something is intended for UbuntuTV [02:56] And have the software center only list packages that are flagged for UbuntuTV shown by default [02:56] I think we should just change the default theme and WM behavior to work better on TVs, and leave the apps and packages as they are [02:56] for example, new windows that can be maximized should start maximized [02:56] sort of like how software center doesn't show "technical" packages now by default [02:56] dmj726, Wouldn't that require that we change the way that apt-get works? [02:57] imnichol: How do we determine if a package is "technical" or not? [02:57] Seems like it would be easier to just harness the advantages of apt-get(repos) in order to accomplish this [02:57] dmj726, Presumably that's what Canonical is going to do [02:57] then if people want to add Thunderbird to their TV, we don't try and make it hard for them [02:57] mhall119, We're not making it hard, just disabling it by default so someone who doesn't know very much about linux doesn't accidentally install the gimp [02:57] Perhaps require the repository be installed but disabled by default? [02:58] dmj726, What do you mean by the repo being installed? [02:58] Do you mean set up but commented out in sources.list? [02:58] why not let them accidentally install the gimp, if we can make the GTK theme and WM behavior turn the gimp into something that's reasonable to interact with on a TV? [02:58] mhall119, because that's way more work for like 5% of the people who will want that feature [02:59] Make it totally slick and easy and hard-to-mess up by default [02:59] I'm not sure it will be, all the work will be done in only a handful of places [02:59] Then have a switch for people who want to turn it into a full on computer [02:59] There's no way that you can make a program as complex as the gimp easy to use with a remote [02:59] no, not with a remote [02:59] And that's what I mean, the default repos should be programs you can use with only a remote [03:00] I think most of it is setting up the shell [03:00] but with a wireless keyboard and mouse, sure [03:00] and having the window manager be full screen only [03:00] And then if you want to hook up a keyboard, you can do that and then enable the regular repos [03:00] dmj726: can't do fullscreen only, not all app windows support it [03:00] but like I said, any windows that can be maximized, should be maximized [03:01] mhall119: I do mean maximized [03:01] I know [03:01] but again, I don't think you can do that for all windows [03:01] any apps that can't be maximized just sit there as big as they'll go in the middle [03:01] And honestly, those should probably be disabled [03:02] It breaks the "sleakness" that we're (presumably) going for [03:02] imnichol: I'd rather hide them from being installed than actually disabling them. [03:02] dmj726, that's what I meant [03:02] Sorry for the confusion [03:02] np [03:03] When I say "disabled" I mean, put in a repo that's commented out in sources.list [03:03] Because after all, this will be a full on linux based system, so we shouldn't prevent people from doing anything if they really want to [03:04] http://askubuntu.com/questions/55130/how-does-software-center-determine-what-is-a-technical-item-and-what-isnt [03:04] imnichol: is that what the software sources GUI does when you uncheck the box? [03:05] dmj726, I don't understand your question [03:06] Could you rephrase it? [03:13] imnichol: I just wanted to make sure that the Software Sources GUI in software center was doing what you described as "commenting out" [03:13] so yeah, I'm fine with that [03:13] except... [03:13] Oh ok [03:14] wouldn't we need to duplicate a huge number of packages to both repositories? [03:14] And AFAIK, that's correct [03:14] Yes, theres that problem [03:14] Hm [03:14] How many gigs to the repos take up? [03:14] I've never hosted one [03:15] Perhaps have software Center only show things from the UbuntuTV repo by default [03:15] with a check boxes to show desktop or "technical" stuff. [03:15] Ahh [03:15] That's what I have been invisioning [03:15] *envisioning [03:15] This is really more of a search problem than an access problem [03:16] Didn't someone on the mailing list say that GNOME3 allowed applications to specify different interfaces based on some criteria? [03:16] So that could be another option [03:16] Advanced: "Show Applications designed for other flavors of Ubuntu" [03:17] yeah [03:17] In any case, that can be something we worry about at a later date [03:18] So if I want GIMP and don't mind making liberal use of the window switcher and using a mouse and keyboard, I can, but I know it's not made for UbuntuTV [03:18] yeah [03:18] But I think that a sane group of applications should be presented by default [03:19] And then provide a "here be dragons" option for people who want to use Libreoffice/the gimp/whatever [03:19] Right, we don't want random desktop apps mixed in unless the user asks for that specifically [03:19] Yes [03:19] I think that's pretty reasonable [03:19] But we should let the user ask for that [03:19] yep, we're on the same page [03:20] Cool [03:20] Is there anyone else paying attention to this that has anything to add? [03:20] I feel like mhall dropped out somewhere.... [03:21] mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405 [03:21] This was my quick idea of what the Ubuntu button would bring up menu wise [03:22] same launcher design, just a different dash layout [03:25] imnichol: I like Ian Santopietro's idea of a custom DEBIAN/control flag [03:26] The more I think about it the more I agree [03:26] and we use that as our default filter determinant for software center [03:26] imnichol: sorry, getting ready for sleep [03:27] Ah. Catch ya later then [03:35] imnichol: I have open office on my phone :P [03:35] What kind of phone do you have? [03:36] Nokia n900 [03:36] Ah [03:36] I've got a palm pre [03:36] It's a debian derivative [03:37] I never bothered installing Ubuntu on it though because it won't make phone calls when it's running Ubuntu [03:37] I have a touchpad that I'd love to run ubuntu on [03:37] Natively [03:38] I want ubuntu on my pre as well [03:38] You can run it in a vm, but I want it to be my only OS [03:38] Well, my n900 was basically me buying the closest thing to an Ubuntu phone I could get [03:39] I'd get one and install Ubuntu on it [03:39] I've got straight up debian in a chroot [03:39] I'm actually trying to get rid of my phone [03:39] But if they release one with Ubuntu, I'll be hooked :D [03:40] Yeah, All I really want is an Ubuntu phone on quality hardware and either a slideout keyboard or dual screens [03:40] I'd take a single keyboard [03:40] (A single onscreen keyboard) [03:40] (I don't like to have to cover up my window with an onscreen keyboard) [03:41] That's a valid complaint [03:41] I mean, hardware keyboards aren't hard to type on, but I like to see what I'm doing [03:41] Its why I like my Palm Pre, portrait slider ftw [03:41] n900 ctrl+c [03:41] switch windows [03:41] ctrl+v [03:47] Is it just me or has everyone(except tgm ;)) sort of agreed with the idea of a unity-based menu? [04:05] * imnichol is away: Away [04:29] * imnichol is back (gone 00:24:23) [06:28] imnichol, about 450GB [06:29] imnichol, also, I think there were more than just me that didn't like Unity as the 10' UI [06:32] tgm4883, yeah I know, thus the wink [06:33] Sounds to me like we want to keep the number of repos that we need to host down then, that's a lot of space [06:34] Although if we create a special repo just for Ubuntutv applications, it probably isn't going to be as big as that [06:59] Intresting discussion. Like the two of you said it should be very *WARNING Will Robinson* kind of decision, but an option I think it should be. [07:00] As far as apps; how we sort it it doesn't matter for now, but either some kind of separate repo or hiding all "desktop" apps from the normal repo would suffice I think [07:02] * MrChrisDruif goes bed to bed. I hope Ian still saw what I said [08:17] MrChrisDruif: yes, you can discard those early ones, I was just checking pencil out and messing with backgrounds [08:18] mhall119: go ahead and put stuff in bzr, the remote would be great. [08:18] mhall119: oh, but I think you put in the concept1.ep rather than the more useful basedesignframe one which is just slide 1 [08:42] http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ubuntu-linux-smart-tv-canonical,14096.html [11:44] Luckily those people from Tom's Hardware got the 10 feet interface correct... [11:45] And it feels like everyone thinks Mark thought along with us, while he only agreed with our feature list ^_^ [11:48] Btw...why are they still using the old COF? [11:51] Not sure but someone should tell them to use the new one instead. [11:52] Good god, that's what you get when people use old blog's etc for their info. A quote from one of the replies "Mandatory Ubuntu One account? Not for me thanks" [11:52] Haha =') [11:52] Aloha mainerror [11:52] Hello. :) [11:54] Yes, I was gonna read all them replies and give reply here and there [13:23] mainerror; it seems AlanBell already replied, but I made an additional note pointing towards our wiki page [18:41] 17:49 < daker> what are the essentiel features on a TV ? [18:41] daker: my essential features are: [18:41] 1) Stay as close to desktop Unity as makes sense [18:42] 2) Be usable from 10-20 feet away on a reasonable sized screen [18:42] 3) Be usable without a mouse or keyboard, only a remote control with a small set of buttons [18:43] 4) Optimized so that apps can be mostly used without being customized for TV [18:47] i see [18:47] mhall119, so to play songs you need to use rythmbox ? [18:50] mhall119, if youd on't mind me taking this... the idea is that there would be a default, but we've been talking about how to allow people to change the default if they want. [18:51] * imnichol is away: I'm busy [18:52] * imnichol is back (gone 00:00:41) [18:56] daker: yes, but maybe with a different interface [18:57] like the sound-indicator's controls do [18:57] and why not having some kind of a media center [18:57] daker: that's an option too [18:58] as long as it can be controlled through the remote, and integrates nicely with Unity [19:44] mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405 [19:44] Thoughts on something like this layout for dash? [19:48] dmj726: are those boxes in the center launchers or lenses? [19:49] I guess they would be like lenses [19:49] basically pressing "Movies" would show you your movies [19:50] which you could then select a movie [19:50] ok, I can see that. It's a good design for desktop Unity's default dash screen too actually [19:50] More Apps would show a list of more kinds of apps [19:51] mhall119: hmm, yeah I suspect that the exact options given might be different for desktop unity though [20:19] Is there technical merit to patching Unity for use as a 10' UI? Or is everyone just jumping on the Unity bandwagon because it's what Ubuntu already uses and/or they think that is what Canonical probably wants? [20:29] tgm4883: did you watch Mark Shuttleworth's UDS keynote speech? [20:30] AlanBell, yes [20:31] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/820 [20:31] and the second paragraph of that blog post [20:32] If that is the case, then we can all stop with our designs [20:33] err, why? [20:33] Community doesn't assist in design [20:34] if you say so [20:34] I don't have to say so, it's been the experience of anyone that has attempted to try and change Unity [20:36] AlanBell, I went to the discussions at UDS. It was very much "this is not designed by committee" [20:36] at UDS-P? [20:36] yea [20:37] ok, so why do you think there is merit in doing design work on a 10' UI that isn't unity focussed? [20:37] because there is no way that is going to be proposed by canonical to OEMs [20:38] Because I think Unity wastes too much space for a TV interface [20:38] As odd as it sounds, you have less space on a TV [20:38] so you need to use it all [20:39] and how will you convince canonical to propose that to OEMs? [20:41] To propose to use something else besides Unity, or to propose to fix Unity so it doesn't waste space on TV's? [20:41] the former [20:42] fixing unity not to waste space on TV is what this is all about really [20:43] AlanBell, Providing that OEMs want to ship a media center, it shouldn't be that difficult to say A) We are putting money behind X software for development and support, and B) We are using X software because it is a tried and true method, we just want to extend it a bit futher to meet our needs [20:43] yeah, that is how to convince OEMs [20:43] not how to convince canonical [20:43] oh [20:43] * tgm4883 needs to learn to read [20:44] yea, I can't convince canonical. They need to try on their own [20:44] AlanBell, so it all boils down to this [20:44] I have zero issue with having the 10' UI codebase be based on Unity code [20:45] canonical want to go to the TV OEMs (probably cheap end of the scale) and propose their awesome new on screen display/media centre/app delivery platform thing that is theirs [20:45] there are some lovely themes for xbmc and it is great [20:45] I do have an issue with how almost every single mockup I've seen is basically just Desktop Unity with some special lenses [20:45] but Canonical won't take that to the OEMs [20:46] AlanBell, I know there are :) [20:46] AlanBell, likely correct, and I think that is an issue [20:47] * tgm4883 goes to heat his lunch [23:32] Good night everyone