[00:05] <mhall119> that would require a lot of work, and have a distinctly different look and feel from desktop Unity
[00:09] <mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html added a Dash with Filter
[00:12] <AlanBell> nice
[00:12] <AlanBell> filters might work well for the TV schedule lens
[00:13] <mhall119> yeah
[00:23] <mhall119> added search in the dash with onscreen keyboard
[00:24] <MrChrisDruif> On the etherpad you mean mhall119 ?
[00:24] <MrChrisDruif> Btw, aloha =)
[00:27] <AlanBell> mhall119: oooo, I like the on screen keyboard
[00:27] <AlanBell> and onboard can totally do that
[00:33] <MrChrisDruif> mhall119; it looks pretty good so far =)
[00:44] <mhall119> AlanBell: it's a screenshot of Maliit
[00:44] <mhall119> https://wiki.maliit.org/Screenshots
[00:45] <mhall119> thanks MrChrisDruif
[00:45] <MrChrisDruif> How did you come to know of Ubuntu TV mhall119 ?
[00:46] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I was at UDS-P when Mark announced it, along with tablet, phone and cars
[00:46] <mhall119> then I saw Mark's blog about what Alan was doing, and thought I'd join in the fun
[00:47] <MrChrisDruif> IVI, not just cars
[00:47] <MrChrisDruif> Ah, grand designer AlanBell ;-)
[00:49] <mhall119> he is
[00:50] <MrChrisDruif> Haha, don't let him hear it =')
[00:53] <mhall119> AlanBell: do you have a problem with me putting my remote into the template file in bzr?
[01:29] <mhall119> AlanBell: MrChrisDruif: What do you guys think of the "Program Info" slide? http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
[01:29] <MrChrisDruif> mhall119; what page?
[01:29] <MrChrisDruif> nv, page 2
[01:29] <mhall119> yup
[01:30] <MrChrisDruif> I like it, but I'd have to think about it. Look good so far =)
[01:30] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe a bit busy in the top bar?
[01:30] <mhall119> maybe, that's the Unity top panel though
[01:30] <MrChrisDruif> I know
[01:31] <mhall119> implementation will be tricky, since the top panel is Unity, but the progress overlay is whatever playback app is used, and the one button press needs to trigger both
[01:31] <MrChrisDruif> How do you mean?
[01:32] <MrChrisDruif> Btw, I'm almost of to hit the sack, 2:32 AM here
[01:32] <mhall119> 2 apps will need to consume the same keypress event
[01:32] <MrChrisDruif> That's not very difficult I think
[01:32] <mhall119> I'm not sure if X (or Wayland) have a way of doing that, of if one of the apps will have to explicitly pass the key event on to the other
[01:33] <MrChrisDruif> Same are starting to programs in terminal with a single "command"
[01:33] <MrChrisDruif> But that is a concern for later I think?
[01:34] <mhall119> a concern for someone else anyway, and that's enough for me :)
[01:34] <MrChrisDruif> We are now in the "dream" phase as I like to call it. Creating storyboards of what we'd like to see happen and look
[01:36] <MrChrisDruif> I think I'll add Ubuntu Phone/Tablet to my storyboard =)
[01:37] <MrChrisDruif> They keep bugging on the mailing-list about a desktop-mode...screw that, we don't need that on the TV
[01:37] <MrChrisDruif> With my storyboard they'll understand ;-)
[01:42] <mhall119> I don't understand what they wanted different "modes" for
[01:43] <mhall119> and the whole "It's just a large-screened PC" bit was just...wrong
[01:44] <mhall119> a TV on the other side of the room has the same arc width as a small screen netbook
[01:44] <mhall119> of a phone, if you're like me and still have an old SD-TV
[01:44] <mhall119> or a phone
[01:46] <mhall119> the biggest TV that would fit in my entertainment center would, from the distance of my couch, be equivilent to a 7-9 inch screen on my lap
[01:48] <mhall119> or about the same as a phone in my hand
[01:50] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, the bigger the better in my opinion, but still that's not to the point
[01:52] <MrChrisDruif> What I'm thinking about if there really IS the need for making it a second big screen the tablet, then share it from the tablet to the TV instead of making some kind of wacky desktop mode on the tv
[02:02] <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I should just disregard those early png's you created before Pencil?
[02:05] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: you sure those aren't PNGs exported from Pencil?  which ones are you referring to?
[02:06] <MrChrisDruif> I'm sure, I'm referring (among 2 others) to this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/progresspanel.png
[02:06] <mhall119> ew, tubbies
[02:06] <MrChrisDruif> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/programlens.png && http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/controlsinpanel.png as well
[02:06] <mhall119> but that looks like it was made in Pencil too
[02:06] <MrChrisDruif> So yes, I'm pretty sure ;-)
[02:07] <MrChrisDruif> But at least before the "default template"
[02:07] <mhall119> yeah
[02:19] <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I agree, I don't want a full desktop on the TV. Although it would be neat to have an app that either A) acted as an extension of the laptop/tablet/netbook, or B) would display a shared application from the laptop/tablet/netbook
[02:20] <MrChrisDruif> So yeah, I'll have to get cracking with my storyboard and share it with them. I think they will like it ;-)
[02:20] <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I disagree. Some may like it, but I'm getting the feeling some people won't accept anything but a full blown desktop replacement
[02:21] <MrChrisDruif> Haha, true that =')
[02:30] <MrChrisDruif> But I don't think we should that one let him let his way, it
[02:30] <MrChrisDruif> 's a TV for crying out loud
[02:31] <MrChrisDruif> Damn you ' =')
[02:32] <MrChrisDruif> Anyhow...
[02:33]  * MrChrisDruif is off to bed, but let's his client run. If you got something, just ping me
[02:37] <dmj726> tgm4883: Yeah, we shouldn't make the TV, just a desktop
[02:38] <dmj726> That said, we should approach this from a standpoint of changing the UI to be suited to the TV environment rather than limiting what the TV can do.
[02:40] <imnichol> Hey, is the irclog at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/30/%23ubuntu-tv.txt?
[02:41] <imnichol> Because the last update to it was at 23:41
[02:41] <imnichol> How up to date is that?
[02:44] <dmj726> imnichol: It seems to be about an hour old at most
[02:44] <imnichol> Ok
[02:44] <imnichol> Thanks
[02:46] <dmj726> imnichol: actually no
[02:46] <dmj726> It looks like it's 3 hours old
[02:47] <dmj726> which is more than it was the other day for me
[02:47] <mhall119> after 23:59, it goes to /2011/12/01/
[02:47] <dmj726> mhall119 is right
[02:47] <dmj726> so check the next day
[02:48] <imnichol> Ahah
[02:48] <dmj726> mhall119: just looked at your mockup
[02:48] <imnichol> Wow, I'm dumb
[02:48] <dmj726> mhall119: mostly I like it
[02:49] <dmj726> Though I'd like to avoid typing when I don't have a good qwerty keyboard around
[02:50] <imnichol> MrChrisDruif, what did you think of Ian Nicholson's suggestion of allowing the full repos to be enabled?
[02:50] <imnichol> (I'm Ian Nicholson)
[02:51] <mhall119> dmj726: I'd agree, but the dash has a search field, so I thought I'd show how it would be used
[02:51] <mhall119> unfortunately, Unity is very search-driven, which is going to be difficult to use without a keyboard
[02:51] <dmj726> mhall119: I have a simple mockup of a structure to avoid the need when you haven't already typed stuff
[02:52] <mhall119> dmj726: did you read the caption below?  it only goes there when you click the search button on the remote, otherwise it's all navigation by arrow buttons
[02:53] <dmj726> mhall119: yes I read it, but I missed that
[02:54] <dmj726> imnichol: I'd suggest something different actually
[02:55] <dmj726> So have the full repos enabled by default, but have some metadata in packages that indicates something is intended for UbuntuTV
[02:56] <dmj726> And have the software center only list packages that are flagged for UbuntuTV shown by default
[02:56] <mhall119> I think we should just change the default theme and WM behavior to work better on TVs, and leave the apps and packages as they are
[02:56] <mhall119> for example, new windows that can be maximized should start maximized
[02:56] <dmj726> sort of like how software center doesn't show "technical" packages now by default
[02:56] <imnichol> dmj726, Wouldn't that require that we change the way that apt-get works?
[02:57] <dmj726> imnichol: How do we determine if a package is "technical" or not?
[02:57] <imnichol> Seems like it would be easier to just harness the advantages of apt-get(repos) in order to accomplish this
[02:57] <imnichol> dmj726, Presumably that's what Canonical is going to do
[02:57] <mhall119> then if people want to add Thunderbird to their TV, we don't try and make it hard for them
[02:57] <imnichol> mhall119, We're not making it hard, just disabling it by default so someone who doesn't know very much about linux doesn't accidentally install the gimp
[02:57] <dmj726> Perhaps require the repository be installed but disabled by default?
[02:58] <imnichol> dmj726, What do you mean by the repo being installed?
[02:58] <imnichol> Do you mean set up but commented out in sources.list?
[02:58] <mhall119> why not let them accidentally install the gimp, if we can make the GTK theme and WM behavior turn the gimp into something that's reasonable to interact with on a TV?
[02:58] <imnichol> mhall119, because that's way more work for like 5% of the people who will want that feature
[02:59] <imnichol> Make it totally slick and easy and hard-to-mess up by default
[02:59] <mhall119> I'm not sure it will be, all the work will be done in only a handful of places
[02:59] <imnichol> Then have a switch for people who want to turn it into a full on computer
[02:59] <imnichol> There's no way that you can make a program as complex as the gimp easy to use with a remote
[02:59] <mhall119> no, not with a remote
[02:59] <imnichol> And that's what I mean, the default repos should be programs you can use with only a remote
[03:00] <dmj726> I think most of it is setting up the shell
[03:00] <mhall119> but with a wireless keyboard and mouse, sure
[03:00] <dmj726> and having the window manager be full screen only
[03:00] <imnichol> And then if you want to hook up a keyboard, you can do that and then enable the regular repos
[03:00] <mhall119> dmj726: can't do fullscreen only, not all app windows support it
[03:00] <mhall119> but like I said, any windows that can be maximized, should be maximized
[03:01] <dmj726> mhall119: I do mean maximized
[03:01] <mhall119> I know
[03:01] <mhall119> but again, I don't think you can do that for all windows
[03:01] <dmj726> any apps that can't be maximized just sit there as big as they'll go in the middle
[03:01] <imnichol> And honestly, those should probably be disabled
[03:02] <imnichol>  It breaks the "sleakness" that we're (presumably) going for
[03:02] <dmj726> imnichol: I'd rather hide them from being installed than actually disabling them.
[03:02] <imnichol> dmj726, that's what I meant
[03:02] <imnichol> Sorry for the confusion
[03:02] <dmj726> np
[03:03] <imnichol> When I say "disabled" I mean, put in a repo that's commented out in sources.list
[03:03] <imnichol> Because after all, this will be a full on linux based system, so we shouldn't prevent people from doing anything if they really want to
[03:04] <dmj726> http://askubuntu.com/questions/55130/how-does-software-center-determine-what-is-a-technical-item-and-what-isnt
[03:04] <dmj726> imnichol: is that what the software sources GUI does when you uncheck the box?
[03:05] <imnichol> dmj726, I don't understand your question
[03:06] <imnichol> Could you rephrase it?
[03:13] <dmj726> imnichol: I just wanted to make sure that the Software Sources GUI in software center was doing what you described as "commenting out"
[03:13] <dmj726> so yeah, I'm fine with that
[03:13] <dmj726> except...
[03:13] <imnichol> Oh ok
[03:14] <dmj726> wouldn't we need to duplicate a huge number of packages to both repositories?
[03:14] <imnichol> And AFAIK, that's correct
[03:14] <imnichol> Yes, theres that problem
[03:14] <imnichol> Hm
[03:14] <imnichol> How many gigs to the repos take up?
[03:14] <imnichol> I've never hosted one
[03:15] <dmj726> Perhaps have software Center only show things from the UbuntuTV repo by default
[03:15] <dmj726> with a check boxes to show desktop or "technical" stuff.
[03:15] <imnichol> Ahh
[03:15] <imnichol> That's what I have been invisioning
[03:15] <imnichol> *envisioning
[03:15] <dmj726> This is really more of a search problem than an access problem
[03:16] <imnichol> Didn't someone on the mailing list say that GNOME3 allowed applications to specify different interfaces based on some criteria?
[03:16] <imnichol> So that could be another option
[03:16] <dmj726> Advanced: "Show Applications designed for other flavors of Ubuntu"
[03:17] <imnichol> yeah
[03:17] <imnichol> In any case, that can be something we worry about at a later date
[03:18] <dmj726> So if I want GIMP and don't mind making liberal use of the window switcher and using a mouse and keyboard, I can, but I know it's not made for UbuntuTV
[03:18] <dmj726> yeah
[03:18] <imnichol> But I think that a sane group of applications should be presented by default
[03:19] <imnichol> And then provide a "here be dragons" option for people who want to use Libreoffice/the gimp/whatever
[03:19] <dmj726> Right, we don't want random desktop apps mixed in unless the user asks for that specifically
[03:19] <imnichol> Yes
[03:19] <imnichol> I think that's pretty reasonable
[03:19] <dmj726> But we should let the user ask for that
[03:19] <dmj726> yep, we're on the same page
[03:20] <imnichol> Cool
[03:20] <imnichol> Is there anyone else paying attention to this that has anything to add?
[03:20] <imnichol> I feel like mhall dropped out somewhere....
[03:21] <dmj726> mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405
[03:21] <dmj726> This was my quick idea of what the Ubuntu button would bring up menu wise
[03:22] <dmj726> same launcher design, just a different dash layout
[03:25] <dmj726> imnichol: I  like Ian Santopietro's idea of a custom DEBIAN/control flag
[03:26] <imnichol> The more I think about it the more I agree
[03:26] <dmj726> and we use that as our default filter determinant for software center
[03:26] <mhall119> imnichol: sorry, getting ready for sleep
[03:27] <imnichol> Ah.  Catch ya later then
[03:35] <dmj726> imnichol: I have open office on my phone :P
[03:35] <imnichol> What kind of phone do you have?
[03:36] <dmj726> Nokia n900
[03:36] <imnichol> Ah
[03:36] <imnichol> I've got a palm pre
[03:36] <dmj726> It's a debian derivative
[03:37] <dmj726> I never bothered installing Ubuntu on it though because it won't make phone calls when it's running Ubuntu
[03:37] <imnichol> I have a touchpad that I'd love to run ubuntu on
[03:37] <imnichol> Natively
[03:38] <imnichol> I want ubuntu on my pre as well
[03:38] <imnichol> You can run it in a vm, but I want it to be my only OS
[03:38] <dmj726> Well, my n900 was basically me buying the closest thing to an Ubuntu phone I could get
[03:39] <imnichol> I'd get one and install Ubuntu on it
[03:39] <dmj726> I've got straight up debian in a chroot
[03:39] <imnichol> I'm actually trying to get rid of my phone
[03:39] <imnichol> But if they release one with Ubuntu, I'll be hooked :D
[03:40] <dmj726> Yeah, All I really want is an Ubuntu phone on quality hardware and either a slideout keyboard or dual screens
[03:40] <imnichol> I'd take a single keyboard
[03:40] <imnichol> (A single onscreen keyboard)
[03:40] <dmj726> (I don't like to have to cover up my window with an onscreen keyboard)
[03:41] <imnichol> That's a valid complaint
[03:41] <dmj726> I mean, hardware keyboards aren't hard to type on, but I like to see what I'm doing
[03:41] <imnichol> Its why I like my Palm Pre, portrait slider ftw
[03:41] <dmj726> n900 ctrl+c
[03:41] <dmj726> switch windows
[03:41] <dmj726> ctrl+v
[03:47] <imnichol> Is it just me or has everyone(except tgm ;)) sort of agreed with the idea of a unity-based menu?
[04:05]  * imnichol is away: Away
[04:29]  * imnichol is back (gone 00:24:23)
[06:28] <tgm4883> imnichol, about 450GB
[06:29] <tgm4883> imnichol, also, I think there were more than just me that didn't like Unity as the 10' UI
[06:32] <imnichol> tgm4883, yeah I know, thus the wink
[06:33] <imnichol> Sounds to me like we want to keep the number of repos that we need to host down then, that's a lot of space
[06:34] <imnichol> Although if we create a special repo just for Ubuntutv applications, it probably isn't going to be as big as that
[06:59] <MrChrisDruif> Intresting discussion. Like the two of you said it should be very *WARNING Will Robinson* kind of decision, but an option I think it should be.
[07:00] <MrChrisDruif> As far as apps; how we sort it it doesn't matter for now, but either some kind of separate repo or hiding all "desktop" apps from the normal repo would suffice I think
[07:02]  * MrChrisDruif goes bed to bed. I hope Ian still saw what I said
[08:17] <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: yes, you can discard those early ones, I was just checking pencil out and messing with backgrounds
[08:18] <AlanBell> mhall119: go ahead and put stuff in bzr, the remote would be great.
[08:18] <AlanBell> mhall119: oh, but I think you put in the concept1.ep rather than the more useful basedesignframe one which is just slide 1
[08:42] <AlanBell> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ubuntu-linux-smart-tv-canonical,14096.html
[11:44] <MrChrisDruif> Luckily those people from Tom's Hardware got the 10 feet interface correct...
[11:45] <MrChrisDruif> And it feels like everyone thinks Mark thought along with us, while he only agreed with our feature list ^_^
[11:48] <MrChrisDruif> Btw...why are they still using the old COF?
[11:51] <mainerror> Not sure but someone should tell them to use the new one instead.
[11:52] <MrChrisDruif> Good god, that's what you get when people use old blog's etc for their info. A quote from one of the replies "Mandatory Ubuntu One account? Not for me thanks"
[11:52] <MrChrisDruif> Haha =')
[11:52] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha mainerror
[11:52] <mainerror> Hello. :)
[11:54] <MrChrisDruif> Yes, I was gonna read all them replies and give reply here and there
[13:23] <MrChrisDruif> mainerror; it seems AlanBell already replied, but I made an additional note pointing towards our wiki page
[18:41] <mhall119> 17:49 < daker> what are the essentiel features on a TV ?
[18:41] <mhall119> daker: my essential features are:
[18:41] <mhall119> 1) Stay as close to desktop Unity as makes sense
[18:42] <mhall119> 2) Be usable from 10-20 feet away on a reasonable sized screen
[18:42] <mhall119> 3) Be usable without a mouse or keyboard, only a remote control with a small set of buttons
[18:43] <mhall119> 4) Optimized so that apps can be mostly used without being customized for TV
[18:47] <daker> i see
[18:47] <daker> mhall119, so to play songs you need to use rythmbox ?
[18:50] <imnichol> mhall119, if youd on't mind me taking this... the idea is that there would be a default, but we've been talking about how to allow people to change the default if they want.
[18:51]  * imnichol is away: I'm busy
[18:52]  * imnichol is back (gone 00:00:41)
[18:56] <mhall119> daker: yes, but maybe with a different interface
[18:57] <mhall119> like the sound-indicator's controls do
[18:57] <daker> and why not having some kind of a media center
[18:57] <mhall119> daker: that's an option too
[18:58] <mhall119> as long as it can be controlled through the remote, and integrates nicely with Unity
[19:44] <dmj726> mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405
[19:44] <dmj726> Thoughts on something like this layout for dash?
[19:48] <mhall119> dmj726: are those boxes in the center launchers or lenses?
[19:49] <dmj726> I guess they would be like lenses
[19:49] <dmj726> basically pressing "Movies" would show you your movies
[19:50] <dmj726> which you could then select a movie
[19:50] <mhall119> ok, I can see that.  It's a good design for desktop Unity's default dash screen too actually
[19:50] <dmj726> More Apps would show a list of more kinds of apps
[19:51] <dmj726> mhall119: hmm, yeah I suspect that the exact options given might be different for desktop unity though
[20:19] <tgm4883> Is there technical merit to patching Unity for use as a 10' UI? Or is everyone just jumping on the Unity bandwagon because it's what Ubuntu already uses and/or they think that is what Canonical probably wants?
[20:29] <AlanBell> tgm4883: did you watch Mark Shuttleworth's UDS keynote speech?
[20:30] <tgm4883> AlanBell, yes
[20:31] <AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/820
[20:31] <AlanBell> and the second paragraph of that blog post
[20:32] <tgm4883> If that is the case, then we can all stop with our designs
[20:33] <AlanBell> err, why?
[20:33] <tgm4883> Community doesn't assist in design
[20:34] <AlanBell> if you say so
[20:34] <tgm4883> I don't have to say so, it's been the experience of anyone that has attempted to try and change Unity
[20:36] <tgm4883> AlanBell, I went to the discussions at UDS. It was very much "this is not designed by committee"
[20:36] <AlanBell> at UDS-P?
[20:36] <tgm4883> yea
[20:37] <AlanBell> ok, so why do you think there is merit in doing design work on a 10' UI that isn't unity focussed?
[20:37] <AlanBell> because there is no way that is going to be proposed by canonical to OEMs
[20:38] <tgm4883> Because I think Unity wastes too much space for a TV interface
[20:38] <tgm4883> As odd as it sounds, you have less space on a TV
[20:38] <tgm4883> so you need to use it all
[20:39] <AlanBell> and how will you convince canonical to propose that to OEMs?
[20:41] <tgm4883> To propose to use something else besides Unity, or to propose to fix Unity so it doesn't waste space on TV's?
[20:41] <AlanBell> the former
[20:42] <AlanBell> fixing unity not to waste space on TV is what this is all about really
[20:43] <tgm4883> AlanBell, Providing that OEMs want to ship a media center, it shouldn't be that difficult to say A) We are putting money behind X software for development and support, and B) We are using X software because it is a tried and true method, we just want to extend it a bit futher to meet our needs
[20:43] <AlanBell> yeah, that is how to convince OEMs
[20:43] <AlanBell> not how to convince canonical
[20:43] <tgm4883> oh
[20:43]  * tgm4883 needs to learn to read
[20:44] <tgm4883> yea, I can't convince canonical. They need to try on their own
[20:44] <tgm4883> AlanBell, so it all boils down to this
[20:44] <tgm4883> I have zero issue with having the 10' UI codebase be based on Unity code
[20:45] <AlanBell> canonical want to go to the TV OEMs (probably cheap end of the scale) and propose their awesome new on screen display/media centre/app delivery platform thing that is theirs
[20:45] <AlanBell> there are some lovely themes for xbmc and it is great
[20:45] <tgm4883> I do have an issue with how almost every single mockup I've seen is basically just Desktop Unity with some special lenses
[20:45] <AlanBell> but Canonical won't take that to the OEMs
[20:46] <tgm4883> AlanBell, I know there are :)
[20:46] <tgm4883> AlanBell, likely correct, and I think that is an issue
[20:47]  * tgm4883 goes to heat his lunch
[23:32] <MrChrisDruif> Good night everyone