[00:01] <mattt> evening
[00:19] <AlanBell> cupcakes \o/ https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hbpKZc4pPk8/TtkWX5SzfsI/AAAAAAAAKbg/QzJJtASsZOQ/s1024/Cupcakes.jpg
[08:10] <czajkowski> morning
[08:10] <czajkowski> oh want them cupcakes
[08:38] <Myrtti> mmmmm tea
[08:52] <AlanBell> morning
[08:52] <AlanBell> yeah, they do look nice don't they czajkowski
[08:53] <AlanBell> not quite as posh as the ones Pendulum wanted the other day
[09:04] <dwatkins> hi folks
[09:04] <dwatkins> mmm, cake and bacon and egg sounds great right now
[09:34] <popey> Morning ratfans
[09:58]  * AlanBell is queuing to see santa
[09:59] <mfraz74> What are you going to ask for?
[10:02] <AlanBell> a better applications lens
[10:06] <andylockran> w/c
[10:06] <andylockran> howdy
[10:14] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:29] <andylockran> shy tee morning
[10:31] <Myrtti> audacity is horrible ;___;
[10:32] <brobostigon> equally, so is gwibber.
[10:32] <Myrtti> yes.
[10:32] <brobostigon> it is like you ask gwibber to do something, and you have to wait 20 mins.
[10:32] <andylockran> anyone need a sysadmin job in Brum ?
[10:33] <brobostigon> o/
[10:33] <occupy64k> Depends on how old the version
[10:33] <andylockran> brobostigon: ?
[10:33] <brobostigon> occupy64k: i am using the most recent version in debian experimental.
[10:33] <occupy64k> ok
[10:33] <brobostigon> andylockran: i am not in brum, but a sysadmin job, sounds interesting.
[10:33] <occupy64k> The old versions of gwibber were really slow
[10:33] <Myrtti> heheheheheh funny
[10:34] <Myrtti> yeah.
[10:34] <Myrtti> I used gwibber on this laptop before May first last
[10:34] <occupy64k> The version I'm using is 3.2.1
[10:34] <Myrtti> now I enabled it and still it shows only the replies I've gotten before that in the reply pane
[10:34] <Myrtti> I would call that a tad slow
[10:34] <Myrtti> I wonder how many days it takes for it to fetch the rest
[10:36] <andylockran> well if anyone has any sysadmin friends, please put me in touch
[10:37] <occupy64k> Isn't everyone a sysadmin now?
[10:39] <andylockran> occupy64k: nope, developers like to think they can be with 'the cloud'
[10:40] <Myrtti> oh man, I hate jokosher too
[10:45]  * brobostigon readds chromium daily ppa, to debian sid.
[11:08] <brobostigon> no breakage, phew, also added gwibber ppa.
[13:05] <bigcalm> Peekaboo
[13:06] <czajkowski> I see you
[13:07] <bigcalm> eeeeee
[13:07]  * bigcalm blows raspberries on czajkowski's tummy
[13:07] <czajkowski> oi cheeky
[13:07] <bigcalm> :D
[13:08] <bigcalm> Ello miss, how's you?
[13:09] <bigcalm> Will you be making an appearance after the meal on Friday?
[13:24] <daubers> Lo
[13:25] <czajkowski> hopefully so aye
[13:25] <bigcalm> Goodie :)
[13:25] <bigcalm> Dragging Jon along?
[13:25] <bigcalm> Hi daubers
[13:28]  * daubers dislikes working weekends
[13:28] <bigcalm> You prefer broken ones?
[13:33] <daubers> I prefer free ones :(
[13:34] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGTnuJ1Qqpk <- I made this to explain minecraft to a friend :D
[13:35] <czajkowski> bigcalm: not sure
[13:36] <czajkowski> popey: real money eh :)
[13:37] <mgdm> http://i.imgur.com/viUN9.png - wow
[13:47] <popey> ☺ czajkowski
[13:48] <czajkowski> popey: you make screen casting look so simple
[13:48] <popey> heh, it is ☺
[13:53] <gord> wow minecraft is $26 - that feels expensive
[13:56] <penguin42> the BBC headline writers are getting better; especially for the short headlines - always emphasize the important part: 'Puffin found at sex clinic dies': http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16016898
[14:07] <AlanBell> penguin42: all the headlines seem a bit frisky today
[14:09] <penguin42> AlanBell: I guess they reckon they're better than the standard impending doom headlines
[14:14] <daubers> woot! samba vfs module is starting to look a bit more readable now
[14:18] <Myrtti> standard impeding doom reminds me of Harry Potter.
[14:18] <Myrtti> should I be worried?
[14:19]  * penguin42 hasn't read h.p.
[14:19] <penguin42> (or watched it)
[14:21] <Myrtti> I listened.
[14:39] <czajkowski> hmm dell site is annoying
[14:39] <czajkowski> you search for Ubuntu
[14:40] <AlanBell> czajkowski: chat to the live assistant
[14:40] <czajkowski> gives back a list of machines and I thought wow what a list, click on the item, still shows the OS as Microsoft
[14:40] <AlanBell> you won't get anything, but blog the transcript
[14:40] <czajkowski> what'll that do ?
[14:40] <AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2010/07/23/why-windows-still-has-good-sales-figures/
[14:41] <AlanBell> just show that demand is there
[14:43] <czajkowski> hmm ok
[14:47] <czajkowski> hmm I sem to have massive lagging problems
[14:47] <czajkowski> the system 76 site really is rather nice
[14:48] <gord> really wish bash had python like string processing :(
[14:48] <gord> met the system 76 guys at uds, nice people
[14:48] <czajkowski> and they do say they'll ship to UK, but the downside of an annoying US keyboard would do my head in
[14:48] <gord> you can get stickers to fix that :)
[14:49] <czajkowski> gord: this is true
[14:49] <czajkowski> the machines they offer are nice
[14:49] <gord> i bet the shipping costs aren't though
[14:50]  * hamitron just gets comp with crapware and solves the problem when it arrives
[14:52] <czajkowski> not sure I'd call it crapware to be honest.  It's just an OS I chose to not want to use
[14:53] <hamitron> I was adding in the other software that is installed to lower the cost of the comp
[15:20] <brobostigon> wales 6  - 0 australia, :)
[15:23] <brobostigon> end first half, wales 6 - 3 australia.
[15:34] <BigRedS> gord: bash's string processing is "perl -e"
[15:34] <mgdm> I wrote a PHP script the other day that generated a 650000 line long Bash script.
[15:34] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: \o/ :)
[15:34] <mgdm> I was quite proud of that.
[15:35] <penguin42> the challenge of how many different languages can you get in a single project
[15:35] <mgdm> This was after re-implementing ls, as it wouldn't read the directory I was throwing at it in a reasonable amount of time
[15:35] <BigRedS> penguin42: I remember Michale Meeks at Fosdem saying "Whatever language you prefer, we've something for you to hack on in Libre Office"
[15:35] <nigelb> mgdm: PHP script to generate bash? That's evil in so many ways :P
[15:36] <penguin42> BigRedS: You could try membase - it has a test suite in perl, python, ruby and erlang
[15:37] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: well, for me, bash's everything-processing is perl :) I try to get a bash if done right about four times and then just rewrite the thing in pelr
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: I know enough shell scripting to get by (packaging..)
[15:37] <mgdm> nigelb: I was more interested in getting stuff done :)
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: but once it gets heavier one line of sed/awk .. hello Perl :)
[15:37] <czajkowski> whooo 62 days to fOSDEM :D
[15:38] <nigelb> mgdm: Heh, I can associate with that :)
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> Argh
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> Configuring some APs (one in "AP" mode, the other in "client bridge" mode)
[15:39] <MartijnVdS> but I can't find anything about what they do with VLAN-tagged packets in the docs
[15:46]  * MartijnVdS goes into "What happened when you tried?" mode
[15:48] <brobostigon> wales 6 - 10 australia :(
[15:48] <MartijnVdS> So.. wails from Wales?
[15:48] <brobostigon> hmmm.
[15:51] <Azelphur> http://snipsnip.it/au54bo9u347 anyone heard of a remote like this that would be Linux compatible?
[15:51] <Azelphur> that'd be sweet for MythTV :P
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus :P
[15:52] <brobostigon> wales 6 - 15 australia :(
[15:52] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: Rugby?
[15:52] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yep.
[15:56]  * MartijnVdS does a popey and upgrades to alpha1
[15:56] <brobostigon> wales 6 - 22 australia :(
[16:17]  * AlanBell ponders moving theopensourcerer.com to a server running precise
[16:18] <brobostigon> ohwell, wales 18 - 24 australia. full time.
[16:18] <AlanBell> whilst theopensourcerer is away for the weekend
[16:20] <penguin42> what can possibly go wrong?
[16:21] <penguin42> this laptop seems to be happy with pp
[16:23] <Darael> penguin42: However much could have gone wrong before that question was asked, it is more now.
[16:23] <Darael> Narrative imperative.
[16:24]  * AlanBell just downloaded the precise CD in 65 seconds
[16:24] <penguin42> nod; best to lock up the cat before upgrading
[16:26] <DJones> I'm thinking about installing in a VM to see what the changes are
[16:29] <penguin42> I can't honestly see any
[16:32] <AlanBell> broadly speaking precise is like oneiric, but slightly better
[16:34]  * brobostigon thinks about dist-upgrade at the right time on his vps, never done such a thing before.
[16:36] <penguin42> don't dist-upgrade - use do-release-upgrade
[16:36] <danfish> afternoon - I am officially running ubuntu again after a sojourn on debian :)
[16:36] <penguin42> welcome back to the u world
[16:37] <danfish> due to hardware issues it turns out
[16:37] <brobostigon> penguin42: yes, agreed, i was simply thinking upon the lines, not a presise method yet.
[16:37] <penguin42> brobostigon: Well if you're going to go to precise then you should be precise
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> 13 minutes remaining
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> then I'll be precise :)
[16:38] <brobostigon> penguin42: ummm, ok.
[16:47] <MartijnVdS> Release:	12.04
[16:47] <MartijnVdS> Codename:	precise
[16:47] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[16:49] <Darael> To be precise, \o/
[16:50] <BigRedS> Hm, anyone done much with Amazon? I've just kicked off a canonical AMI and it's not letting me in with my key
[16:50] <BigRedS> I've remembered to be the user 'ubuntu', but I can't think what else it wants me to do differently...
[16:50] <AlanBell> Daviey is an amazonian I think
[16:51] <AlanBell> my precise server install seems to be taking a very very long time to get NTP time
[16:51] <AlanBell> ah, write about it on IRC and it happens
[16:52] <BigRedS> there's some irony in precise not dong ntp properly
[16:52] <brobostigon> dong :)
[17:00] <AlanBell> on a mac, does the dock thing contain stuff that isn't running as well as stuff that is running, but not all the stuff you could run?
[17:00] <BigRedS> AlanBell: yeah
[17:00] <AlanBell> and people like that?
[17:00] <BigRedS> it has only launcher icons, and then as you open things that weren't already in it, they go in there too
[17:00] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it's like the unity dock -- it contains running and non-running things
[17:01] <BigRedS> there's some visual difference between what represents open things and what doesn't, but I can't remember precisely how
[17:01] <AlanBell> ok
[17:01] <AlanBell> wonder why we copy the silly ideas
[17:02]  * penguin42 notes Risc OS had this about 15 years ago
[17:02] <AlanBell> what I did for a while was un-pin everything in the launcher, so it only showed running things
[17:02] <AlanBell> that made more sense to me, but the applications lens is too hard to find stuff in, so you end up pinning things again
[17:02] <BigRedS> AlanBell: OSX has a lot of the sort of thing where you either get it or you don't, and if you don't get it and try to bend it to fit it doesn't really work
[17:03] <penguin42> AlanBell: It works well if you actually allow the running icons on the dock to do more things - in the RISC OS system the icon on the bar would do loads of things - e.g. show open documents and let you drag and drop onto it
[17:04] <penguin42> IMHO that makes sense - there was never any point to having a launcher on the panel and then something that appeared when it was running
[17:04] <AlanBell> drag and drop on riscos was awesome. It always worked for anything to anywhere
[17:07] <AlanBell> riscos should make a comeback on ARM tablets
[17:07] <Darael> ...is that "should" as in "I anticipate", or "should" as in "someone ought to make it so"?
[17:08] <AlanBell> someone ought to make it so
[17:08] <Darael> Mmm.  Thought so, but it might have been a prediction.
[17:08] <AlanBell> I should think someone will probably do it for the raspberry pi
[17:09] <AlanBell> http://www.osnews.com/story/25276/Raspberry_Pi_To_Embrace_RISC_OS
[17:09]  * AlanBell was right :)
[17:09] <Darael> How... satisfactory.
[17:09] <mgdm> I remember RiscOS from school
[17:09] <mgdm> I learned Pascal on that :)
[17:11]  * AlanBell wants a pi even more now
[17:12] <MartijnVdS> Magnum PI?
[17:13]  * nigelb hands AlanBell 3.14
[17:14] <penguin42> that version never worked well, I'll wait for version 4
[17:14] <mgdm> I wonder if I can emulate something RiscOS-capable
[17:58] <kvarley> Does Ubuntu have an alternative shortcut for character codes? Like on *the OS that shall not be named* you hit Alt + [number] to get accented characters and such.
[17:58] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: most apps understand Ctrl+Shift+U <let go of everything> <type hex code of unicode codepoint> <space>
[17:58] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: Ctrl+Shift+U 2665 = ♥
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: you can look up the hex codes in gucharmap
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> ♫ = 266b
[17:59] <kvarley> Ah ok =] thanks
[17:59] <jacobw> ᙤ
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: what the .. is that
[17:59] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Been using Ubuntu for years and I just wondered now how to do it lol. Each time I needed a special character I had use the charmap lol
[17:59] <Darael> For some things it's easier to set a compose key, of course, but ctl+shift+U works for every character in Unicode.
[18:00] <jacobw> ctrl+shift+u 1664
[18:00] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: 2639 = ☹  263a = ☺
[18:00] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: 263b = ☻
[18:01] <MartijnVdS> etc, etc
[18:01] <jacobw> ጷ
[18:01] <jacobw> i don't know what that is either
[18:01] <kvarley> Thank you muchly
[18:01] <jacobw> ctrl+shift+u 1337
[18:01] <penguin42> remembering unicode isn't as easy as remembering ascii
[18:02] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE PHWA
[18:02] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: That's because ASCII is 127 characters, and unicode is still growing with >16M possible characters
[18:02] <penguin42> nod
[18:03] <kvarley> Is there a way to add folders to an existing tar.bz2 archive?
[18:03] <jacobw> yes
[18:03] <kvarley> jacobw: How? :)
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> there is tar -r (append) but I don't know if it copes with compression
[18:03] <jacobw> i don't know
[18:04] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: I'll try that thanks. I don't need it to be compressed as I am just using it to copy a filesystem
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> also, I don't know what it does with duplicates
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> i.e. you add the same file twice
[18:06] <BigRedS> My understanding is that it will append it to the tar, but not overwrite the file in it
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: sure, but how will that work on unpack?
[18:06] <BigRedS> but then, on extraction, it'll write the first one, then get to the second and overwrite the first with that
[18:07] <MartijnVdS> how delightfully 20th century :)
[18:07] <BigRedS> I've never tested it, though, and so I don't know where that explanation came from
[18:07] <BigRedS> haha
[18:07] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: it's what ctrl-C was invented for :)
[18:07] <popey> that makes sense
[18:08] <popey> given tar was designed for linear devices (tapes)
[18:08] <BigRedS> Yeah
[18:08] <BigRedS> it's a true 'append' rather than just 'add'
[18:08] <popey> makes sense that you can't overwrite something part way along but append
[18:08] <popey> yeah
[18:08] <BigRedS> and means that, on a tape, you can go back through the previous versions
[19:41] <gord> rather interesting proof of concept of an attack on your web browser cache http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/cachetime/
[19:45] <Myrtti> so can someone explain to me how geoclue actually works in 11.10? I'm thinking of putting redshift on as I had it on my ... previous laptop, and it looks the location up with geoclue. But what if I change the location from the clock widget?
[19:55] <gord> Myrtti, iirc there are a few different providers for geoclue, one of them is ip based
[19:58] <Myrtti> alright
[20:54] <Daviey> BigRedS: hey, around?
[21:36] <thispixel> I have some tracks I want to write to CDR is there something I can use to convert them so any player can play them?
[21:40] <Myrtti> depends on what do you mean by tracks and players
[21:40] <Azelphur> !info brasero | thispixel
[21:40] <Azelphur> !brasero | thispixel
[21:40] <Myrtti> brasero is certainly nice
[21:40] <Azelphur> what happened to the bot? :(
[21:41] <Azelphur> slowness
[21:41] <monsterwizard> does anyone know about asm
[21:41] <monsterwizard> and know about stacks
[21:41] <monsterwizard> ;(
[21:41] <penguin42> which asm, which stacks, and whats your problem?
[21:42] <monsterwizard> I'm use 86
[21:42] <monsterwizard> I can't identify where the stack has been created in this program
[21:42] <ali1234> "created"
[21:42] <penguin42> monsterwizard: It normally shows in /proc/self/maps as [stack]
[21:43] <monsterwizard> http://pastebin.com/YAu7sn1Z
[21:43] <monsterwizard> really?
[21:43] <monsterwizard> huh
[21:43] <ali1234> the stack is just 1 pointer, it is in... the stack pointer (register)
[21:44] <ali1234> since that program is just a few asm instructions inside a C program, the compiler will generate the code that sets up the stack
[21:44] <monsterwizard> so there#s no way to indicate where abouts it starts
[21:45] <ali1234> what do you mean?
[21:45] <penguin42> monsterwizard: Do you want to put it somewhere or do you want to find out where it is?
[21:45] <monsterwizard> Well I need to write a report on the stack frame
[21:45] <ali1234> stack has a top and a bottom
[21:45] <monsterwizard> and one question is to comment the "Setting up the stack frame!
[21:45] <monsterwizard> " *
[21:45] <penguin42> monsterwizard: So just do everything via esp
[21:45] <ali1234> neither can really be called the "start"
[21:48] <ali1234> (also you can't really tell where the bottom is)
[21:49] <monsterwizard> But I need to make a diagram of the stack
[21:49] <monsterwizard> surely there is
[21:49] <ali1234> ok
[21:49] <monsterwizard> I dunno though
[21:49] <ali1234> get a debugger
[21:49] <monsterwizard> damn, asm86 makes me physically ill
[21:49] <monsterwizard> got one
[21:49] <ali1234> watch the esp register
[21:49] <ali1234> step through the code
[21:49] <ali1234> esp is a pointer to memory
[21:50] <monsterwizard> Ah I see
[21:50] <ali1234> whenever push instruction is used, whatever you push is written to the memory pointed by the esp
[21:50] <ali1234> then the esp is decremented
[21:50] <ali1234> this is the stack
[21:50] <ali1234> this is kinda fundamental to all machine code
[21:51] <penguin42> monsterwizard: Use a debugger like gdb to have a look - if you do info registers   it will show you the register values
[21:51] <ali1234> so lines 28 to 31 put params on the stack (like the comment says)
[21:52] <ali1234> then line 32 calls a function, which uses those parameters (it looks at esp to find them)
[21:52] <ali1234> then line 33 adds to the stack, which moves it back, removing the parameters
[21:52] <ali1234> same thing throughout the rest of the program
[21:53] <ali1234> so it pushes twice... this is 32 bit code so that's a total of 8 bytes
[21:53] <ali1234> then it adds 8 to esp
[21:53] <ali1234> now esp is back where it started
[21:53] <ali1234> so the thing here is, you have to push and then "pop" an equal number of times, or extremely bad things will happen
[21:54] <ali1234> adding to esp is a shortcut for doing lots of pops, when you don't care about the data
[21:54] <monsterwizard> right I see
[21:54] <monsterwizard> taking notes
[21:55] <ali1234> btw is this homework?
[21:57] <ali1234> the other thing you need to know about the stack is there's no rules at all about esp, it's just another register
[21:58] <ali1234> when a program starts it initializes it to a value, the code that does it is part of the libc, otherwise you'd have to include it in all programs
[21:59] <ali1234> but if you just pop loads of times, the pointer will happily keep moving into unknown memory
[22:00] <ali1234> so you can see that if you change the number of parameters of a function but forget to change the matching pop, you now have a very dangerous bug
[22:00] <penguin42> ali1234: I thought it was actually the kernel that set it up initially and created the parameters on the stack
[22:00] <ali1234> this is one of the things that C makes really easy for you... making sure all function calls "just work"
[22:01] <ali1234> penguin42: i'm pretty sure it's done in the crt.0
[22:01] <monsterwizard> Oh god, ok
[22:01] <ali1234> any OS that uses virtual memory
[22:02] <monsterwizard> wait how do you clear a stack then?
[22:02] <penguin42> you don't you just pop your stuff off it
[22:02] <monsterwizard> oh right
[22:02] <ali1234> you can't
[22:02] <ali1234> well, you can
[22:02] <ali1234> the point is, you have to have a pop for every push
[22:02] <ali1234> it has to match up perfectly
[22:02] <ali1234> if you just pause a program at a random point, you can't tell how deep the stack is
[22:02] <monsterwizard> I see
[22:03] <ali1234> imagine you have a pile of rocks
[22:03] <ali1234> then you add 10 rocks
[22:03] <ali1234> how many rocks in the pile?
[22:03] <ali1234> you don't know...
[22:03] <penguin42> jenga!
[22:03] <monsterwizard> so poping the stack frame = clearing the stack frame
[22:03] <ali1234> but you can take 10 rocks off the top and get back to where you started
[22:03] <monsterwizard> in an abstract sense
[22:03] <ali1234> but if someone else comes along and puts a rock on the pile when you're not looking... you're screwed
[22:04] <penguin42> ali1234: And thats why threads have separate stacks
[22:04] <ali1234> yes, you don't really "clear" it in the sense of "writing 0s over it" or anything like that
[22:05] <ali1234> you just move the pointer back
[22:05] <monsterwizard> This brief isn't very precise another thing I need to identify is the "Passing back the return value"
[22:06] <penguin42> ah, so it is homework....
[22:06] <monsterwizard> not really
[22:06] <monsterwizard> if it was
[22:06] <monsterwizard> I wouldn't do it
[22:06] <monsterwizard> :P
[22:06] <ali1234> looks like the retrun value is in eax
[22:07] <ali1234> or eax,eax; jnz fileOK
[22:07] <ali1234> function call methods differ between OSs
[22:08] <ali1234> actually most OSs can call functions in multiple different ways too
[22:08] <ali1234> again, C hides all this from you most of the time
[22:08] <ali1234> you might find this interesting-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions
[22:09] <ali1234> see if you can figure out the name of the calling convention your code is using
[22:10] <monsterwizard> thank you
[22:11] <mgdm> I fairly comfortable in C, but I've not done any assembly stuff since 6502 on the BBC Micro about 12 years ago :)
[22:17] <monsterwizard> I may stop learning asm
[22:19] <ali1234> there isn't much reason to learn x86 asm
[22:25] <monsterwizard> Yeah/
[22:25] <monsterwizard> So I still can get a job?
[22:25] <monsterwizard> without learning this
[22:25] <monsterwizard> because it's actually giving me an increased heart rate D:
[22:25] <monsterwizard> perhaps I need more 'general' programming skills
[22:25] <jacobw> very few people code in asm
[22:26] <ali1234> sure
[22:27] <Myrtti> crazy neighbour shooting fireworks from their balcony somewhere above me
[22:27] <ali1234> if you want to be an expert programmer
[22:27] <ali1234> learn some 8 bit assembler
[22:27] <Myrtti> where have they even gotten any at this time of year
[22:27] <ali1234> like z80, 6502, etc
[22:27] <ali1234> they are much simpler
[22:28] <ali1234> once you've done that you can bluff your way through any x86 assembler you meet with a reference manual
[22:28] <ali1234> mips is simple too
[22:33] <jacobw> i've started wearing my hearing aid again for the first time in years
[22:35] <jacobw> i can hear my own voice much better, i didn't know i sounded a bit brummie :|
[22:38] <Myrtti> hm
[22:38] <Myrtti> this is worrysome
[22:38] <Myrtti> first I was like, yay, clean laptop and it sounds quieter too
[22:38] <Myrtti> now I'm not sure if the CPU fan is going at all
[22:41] <jacobw> uh oh
[22:45] <jacobw> cpu temperature monitor?
[22:45] <Myrtti> 58C
[22:47] <Myrtti> yeah, it's not going at all
[22:47] <gord> nice and quiet though
[23:00] <Myrtti> well that was scary
[23:01] <Myrtti> got a huge wad of lint and dust off, rebooted all the way to Ubuntu and fan didn't start at all, started to panic and now it runs again
[23:02] <monsterwizard> DO you think access parameters means using the parameters?
[23:02] <Myrtti> now the CPU temp is 38C
[23:04] <jacobw> monsterwizard: what are you reading?
[23:04] <monsterwizard> a text?
[23:05] <monsterwizard> err some random text book
[23:05] <monsterwizard> this is in asm86
[23:07] <jacobw> in my opinion, which may be wrong, asm86 is not a good place to start if you are learning to program
[23:11] <jacobw> http://goo.gl/855wT
[23:43] <dwatkins> I started learning with BBC BASIC, which is a gateway language to Assembley ;)
[23:44] <dwatkins> I gather university courses start with Java or Processing nowadays.
[23:44] <Myrtti> java, python, php and some places do lisp.
[23:45] <jacobw> form what i've seen its java and java and java
[23:45] <Myrtti> I had to learn php to do my xml course
[23:46] <Myrtti> in the process I ended up making my own flat file CMS
[23:46] <dwatkins> Myrtti: my brother did something similar, still uses it despite the existence of CMSs like Wordpress
[23:46] <dwatkins> or mediawiki, which his is more similar to
[23:47] <mgdm> I'm in the process of moving off a CMS to something that generates flat files
[23:47] <mgdm> (moving from Habari to Jekyll, in case someone cares)
[23:53] <Oli> Anybody know where I can find some brilliant white Cat5e cable? Preferably without printing on, so I can just nail it to the top of the skirting board and not have to worry about needing [or wanting] to paint over it?
[23:59] <directhex> you can learn to program from the bottom, or the top. most people these days start with highest-level choices like python, then let people move into lower-level things if they wish. nobody sane starts with assembler in 2011.