[03:15] <ScottL> ochosi, madnick, should i wait until later to take xubuntu-default-settings and xubuntu-artwork for redoing ubuntu studio stuff?
[08:08] <ochosi> ScottL: you're asking because you think it'll change so much you might have to redo it again later?
[12:01] <ScottL> ochosi, aye, i don't mind waiting a week or so
[12:41] <ochosi> ScottL: k, well i don't think that there will be radical changes. mostly new versions of packages that already exist. mr_pouit, any opinion on this?
[12:53] <scott-work> good morning
[12:53] <Unit193> Howdy
[13:08] <ochosi> current greybird-git branch (gtk2 vs. gtk3): http://imagebin.org/187075
[13:12] <scott-work> ochosi: i think the gtk3 looks better, in particular i like the options not active, i like being able to read the text more easily even if i can't do anything with it
[13:12] <ochosi> scott-work: you mean the comboboxentry.insensitive and the gtkentry.insensitive ?
[13:13] <scott-work> ochosi: and checkbutton3, checkbutton4, radiobutton3, and radiobutton4 as well (or in particular)
[13:14] <ochosi> scott-work: right, guess i could fix that in gtk2
[13:14] <ochosi> scott-work: any other comments?
[13:15] <scott-work> ochosi: hehe, i'm not a graphic design guy, i just saw the difference and realized how much i disliked not being able to see the unactive options
[13:16] <ochosi> scott-work: ok :)
[13:16] <ochosi> scott-work: well thanks anyway, i'll try to tweak that a bit
[13:19] <scott-work> ochosi: i'll look again though
[13:20] <scott-work> ochosi: i do have a suggestion, the scroll bar (which isn't visible on the gtk3 image) could be darker
[13:21] <scott-work> scroll bar = the little bar on the side of a window that allows you to scroll the information in the window up and down
[13:21] <ochosi> scott-work: there you go: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-12052011-022055pm.php
[13:21] <ochosi> hm, about the scrollbar: not sure, i personally like that it kinda blends in, i wanted something less obtrusive/obvious than in previous versions
[13:21] <scott-work> ochosi: yeah, i like that, it still shows that you can't pick those options but they are still easily readible
[13:22] <ochosi> think i'll also tweak the disabled combo-entries to look like gtk3
[13:22] <scott-work> ochosi: okay (re: scroll bars), it was just a suggestion
[13:22] <ochosi> i like that a lot more
[13:22] <ochosi> sure, always feel free to suggest :)
[13:24] <ochosi> scott-work: with tweaked combo-entries (the insensitive-part): http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-12052011-022435pm.php
[13:33] <scott-work> ochosi: have you considered some other shade of green or even another color (maybe darker blue) for the back/forward arrows and such?
[13:33]  * scott-work is thinking outside of his usual box this morning ;)
[13:36] <ochosi> :)
[13:36] <ochosi> scott-work: you're referring to the icons?
[13:43] <scott-work> ochosi: oh, yes, i suppose i am, aren't it
[13:43] <scott-work> aren't i
[13:43] <ochosi> scott-work: we had the item "new icon theme" in our roadmap for this release, but since we didn't find an assignee it's postponed
[13:44] <ochosi> scott-work: but yes, it was planned as a modification of the current theme, so potentially the arrows would've been changed as well
[13:44]  * scott-work is listening to phantom of the opera "overture"
[13:45] <scott-work> ochosi: i want to ask you a question, it's kinda far reaching and slightly full of self-interest and you are completely within your right to tell me no
[13:45] <ochosi> scott-work: ok, shoot :)
[13:46] <scott-work> ochosi: instead of me taking the stuff xubuntu is doing for themes and such, it seems like the total work load would be reduced if ubuntu studio's needs were incorporated into the xubuntu packages
[13:46] <ochosi> scott-work: i guess so
[13:46] <scott-work> my original concern was that i would lose any new changes you make, unless i'm in the loop and then take the diff and push it into our packages
[13:46] <scott-work> then i thought about trying to make what ubuntu studio packages maintain are _just_ the diffs and make our stuff depend on your stuff
[13:47] <scott-work> but then things change and we don't know aobut them and pow! somethings different, wrong, or broken
[13:48] <ochosi> yeah, i can see why you'd consider that a problem
[13:48] <scott-work> so i thought perhaps incorporating our changes into your package would provide a minimally different alternative to install (an anology would be like including extra backgrounds for desktop)
[13:48] <scott-work> ochosi: but this isn't a decision to be made right now (even if you and i suppose knome, et al even considered it)
[13:49] <ochosi> what changes would that be concretely?
[13:49]  * scott-work is thinking through his list that is conviently left at home ;)
[13:49] <ochosi> hehe
[13:49] <scott-work> okay, things that are definitive:
[13:49] <scott-work> wallpaper
[13:49] <scott-work> some minor panel layouts
[13:49] <scott-work> probably menu structure too
[13:50] <scott-work> hmmm, this might not be so minor after all
[13:50] <knome> heh
[13:50] <knome> menu structure is quite minor
[13:50] <ochosi> i guess you can keep the panel layouts and menu structure conveniently in a package "ubuntu-studio-settings"
[13:50] <ochosi> for other things, e.g. the theme, you can use the xubuntu package directly
[13:50] <scott-work> knome: but probably not if you are including it in xubuntu packages though
[13:51] <knome> we are yeah
[13:51] <knome> just create your own
[13:51] <scott-work> ochosi: i saw what you (i presume it was you) with the icon set basing it on elementary and elementary-mono-dark then adding your own specific icons to supplement those
[13:51] <scott-work> it was this that gave me the idea earlier
[13:51] <ochosi> yeah, we're doing that, true
[13:52] <ochosi> i guess you could try to do the same with the gtk-theme
[13:52] <knome> hmm...
[13:52] <ochosi> but menus and panels are completely unrelated to the gtk-theme
[13:52] <scott-work> but my thought was that you are not replacing icons, just adding supplementary ones
[13:52] <ochosi> well, we could also replace icons
[13:52] <scott-work> i don't know how that would work depending on xubuntu-default-settings and then say, replacing the menu structure
[13:53] <ochosi> well, that's different
[13:53] <knome> why would you be depending on xubuntu-default-settings
[13:53] <ochosi> the menu-thing isn't really packaging-related
[13:53]  * scott-work wants to point out that he isn't trying to offload work onto someone else, he's quite happy to do the tinkering and tedious stuff
[13:53] <ochosi> errr
[13:53] <ochosi> i meant the icon-stuff is not packaging-related. it's a function of gtk-icon-themes that they can "inherit" other themes
[13:53] <scott-work> the menu structure is included in xubuntu-default-settings isn't it?  i thought it was
[13:53] <scott-work> oh, icon-stuff
[13:53] <ochosi> so all we had to do is put a dependency on the xubuntu-icon-theme package to get elementary as well
[13:54]  * knome shuts up
[13:54] <knome> :)
[13:54] <ochosi> with gtk-themes you can do something similar
[13:54] <scott-work> hehe
[13:54] <scott-work> ochosi: let me look at this some more when i get home and think about the changes i have written down
[13:55] <scott-work> oh, distributor logo and menu icon would change too
[13:55] <ochosi> so basically we'd have to either: split our package into stuff we share with you and then have two addons
[13:55]  * scott-work is thinking about the "must change" things
[13:55] <ochosi> or: you simply clone our package and change whatever you wanna change in there
[13:55] <scott-work> ochosi: oooooh, that's another good idea
[13:55] <knome> yeah...
[13:55] <knome> that was what i was thinking 
[13:55] <knome> :P
[13:55] <ochosi> scott-work: but the first option has a huge caveat
[13:56] <scott-work> ochosi: i worry about the cloning part not facilitating us keeping up with any changes you make
[13:56] <scott-work> but that is something that we might have to just accept
[13:56] <ochosi> scott-work: if we settle on things we want there now, that might be fine. but let's say next release things look different: that'd mean we'd have to settle on the minimal consensus for the base-settings-package again (which might be really tedious in the worst case)
[13:56] <scott-work> ochosi: very good point
[13:57] <scott-work> it's hard enough to make a decision with only one team ;)
[13:57] <ochosi> scott-work: depends on how you clone/maintain your code. it's mostly text-files
[13:57] <scott-work> ochosi: agreed, and i hope to document well my considerations and locations for changing
[13:57] <scott-work> maybe even introduce a new text file just for the configuration changes
[13:57] <ochosi> scott-work: with git i feel really fine about that. i've pulled stuff from gmb maintaining my local diffs all the time (and that means staying up-to-date _with_ modifications)
[13:58] <ochosi> yeah, i mean in general it's a good idea to simplify and share things
[13:58] <ochosi> guess in the end it's not really my place to discuss it, it's more for packagers :)
[14:00] <scott-work> oh, i think i see what you are saying ochosi 
[14:00] <scott-work> using git, i mean
[14:01] <ochosi> yep
[14:01] <ochosi> i guess it's possible with bzr as well, i just don't know it that well
[14:04] <scott-work> heh, i don't either all that well :P
[14:50] <mr_pouit> scott-work: if you want only minimal changes from xubuntu-default-settings, then you can create ubuntu-studio-default-settings to ship only the two or three config files you changed, add a dep on xubuntu-default-settings...
[14:50] <mr_pouit> ... and set XDG_CONFIG_DIRS to /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/:/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu:/etc/xdg
[14:51] <mr_pouit> but imho, you should rather create your own package with all the conf you want, and not rely on xubuntu-default-settings
[14:51] <scott-work> mr_pouit: ack
[14:55] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i know we talked about this already a few times, but is there any half-sane way to change "greybird" into "Greybird"?
[14:58] <mr_pouit> there are several ways, and there are more or less half-insane ;>
[14:58] <ochosi> ok :)
[14:59] <ochosi> adding a symlink is not ideal, i know, but that'd at least not break things for people
[14:59] <ochosi> is there any other way to avoid breakage for people who set their theme to "greybird"?
[15:01] <mr_pouit> patch xfce4-settings/xfce4-settings-helper
[15:02] <mr_pouit> (that's the worst one I could think of ;-)
[15:02] <ochosi> hah
[15:02] <ochosi> i'd just really like to stop to carry forward this stupid little bug
[15:03] <ochosi> especially if we cut down the themes
[15:03] <mr_pouit> ochosi: see that with Corsac, he's the Debian maintainer of murrine-themes
[15:03] <mr_pouit> if he does it, I'll make the change in ubuntu too
[15:03] <ochosi> meh, can't we have our own package for that?
[15:04] <mr_pouit> greybird is already there since oneiric =]
[15:04] <ochosi> i think he included so many themes for a good reason and arguing with him over each and every one sounds like a bad idea
[15:04] <ochosi> i know it is
[15:04] <ochosi> and it's nice for debian users :)
[15:06] <mr_pouit> then what? Create a shimmer-themes package?
[15:06] <ochosi> wouldn't it be easier to just create a new package for xubuntu-themes?
[15:06] <mr_pouit> mmh
[15:07] <ochosi> just sayin, i think the cleanup would be a good idea
[15:07] <ochosi> maybe include more themes there, not just the "shimmer" ones
[15:07] <knome> that's why it's in the roadmap
[15:07] <ochosi> yeah, i mean that package could solve both the issues with gtk and xfwm themes
[15:08] <ochosi> and a good thing would be to have more themes with gtk3 support, maybe even go and look for themes on the interwebs
[15:10] <ochosi> what do you think about that knome ? ^
[15:12] <mr_pouit> I'm not so sure about this cleanup, because it'd mean dropping themes for xfwm4/gtk2-engine-xfce/murrine-themes/etc. and then a big fun with breaks/replaces for the new package we ship them into...
[15:15] <ochosi> so would it make more sense to talk to olivier to split the themes (apart from default) from the xfwm-package upstream?
[15:25] <mr_pouit> there's already a split between xfwm4 and xfwm4-themes though
[15:29] <ochosi> yeah, one reason more to kick those themes to the xfwm4-themes package, no?
[15:37] <mr_pouit> yes
[15:37] <ochosi> mr_pouit: hm, which is better, a bugreport (that might start to rot) or ping olivier directly?
[15:52] <knome> ochosi, maybr
[15:53] <ochosi> knome: ?
[15:53] <ochosi> ah
[15:53] <knome> ochosi, the gtk3 thing
[15:53] <ochosi> yeah, in the meantime i thought a bit more about, not sure how many themes out there have complete xfce-support, which is also mandatory
[15:53] <ochosi> i mean i could theoretically fix them up
[15:54] <ochosi> but i'm afraid there won't be too many with complete gtk3 and xfce support
[15:54] <ochosi> maybe a few though that'll work well enough
[15:54] <knome> yeah
[15:56] <scott-work> this may be a silly suggestion and completely against accepted ethos...
[15:56] <scott-work> but there sounds like a lot of detractions with the murrine-themes package, perhaps making a specific xubuntu one is in order (even though it duplicates code)
[15:57]  * scott-work is afraid his ignorance is showing ;)
[15:57] <ochosi> yeah, that
[15:57] <ochosi> 's basically what we were discussing earlier
[16:33] <charlie-tca> crashed ubiquity on the desktop 386 in VBox today. Will attempt hardware install next.
[17:11] <charlie-tca> Caught by bug 894768 ; Can not reproduce on hardware
[18:33] <plantoschka> irc://irc://irc.opensuse.org/suse
[18:33] <plantoschka> oh sorry :-D
[19:43] <astraljava> *blasphemy*
[19:43] <baizon> :D
[19:45] <charlie-tca> hm, anyone still doing daily smoke tests for Xubuntu?
[19:46] <charlie-tca> Well, that's a shame.
[19:55] <madnick> Nobody pokes me anymore, there was no clear indication that we would even do alpha 1. Infact I do download images when I'm blocked on my items, but I don't know if there is any known problems, or anything like that to test
[19:55] <charlie-tca> I see. We do need to do daily testing again. 
[19:55] <madnick> Its my fault however
[19:55] <charlie-tca> I can start poking people for testing, if it helps
[19:55] <madnick> Yes, that would be great
[19:55] <charlie-tca> :)
[19:56] <charlie-tca> I started smoke testing this week.
[19:58] <madnick> okay, i will start tomorrow, and I can only cover 2 images per day now, because I swapped down my connection, to save some money
[19:59] <charlie-tca> That's okay. Even if you could do one every other day, it would be great!
[19:59] <madnick> awsome
[19:59] <charlie-tca> I can do a test on each image daily, but sometimes the results need verifying.
[20:01] <madnick> :) 
[20:01] <Unit193> I'm syncing now, I fixed the issue I had
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Great!
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I can give reminders here, if we need them.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> desktop 386 in a VBox on a 64bit machine fails regularly now. That is the biggest bug I know about.
[20:04] <Unit193> I have a 32bit VBox on a 32bit OS
[20:04] <charlie-tca> That should work, then
[20:04] <charlie-tca> I had to test it on hardware to get a pass
[20:05] <charlie-tca> by the way, the daily tracker now allows multiple entries per person.
[20:05] <charlie-tca> That will be good when testing on different machines, or VBox and hardware, maybe.
[20:11] <Unit193> Sadly, I still can't test on hardware, and if I could, it's one of those that the video isn't supported (Main computer isn't)
[20:14] <charlie-tca> I can test on hardware. I have both ati and nvidia cards working now, and will run hardware tests a couple of times a week, if we have other testers.
[20:17] <Unit193> I actually saw drc in #Xubuntu maybe a month back :P
[20:20] <charlie-tca> Yeah, he is around, but ignoring us now.
[21:00] <pleia2> oooh, my xubuntu stickers should arrive today (ordered some from moo.com :))
[21:01] <Unit193> Make sure you post pics ;)
[21:01] <pleia2> once I have them and confirm awesomeness I'll put creation details on the wiki
[21:01] <pleia2> and that too!
[21:02] <charlie-tca> great!
[21:03] <charlie-tca> I am waiting for an obi110 box to arrive.
[21:12] <charlie-tca> Okay, enough for today.
[21:43] <scott-work> pleia2: it looks like moo.com is actually kinda inexpensive, i might do something like that for swag for ubuntu studio
[21:44] <pleia2> scott-work: it's not bad and once you order something once they send you deals pretty often (20-30% off certain items each month, I buy stickers when they have sales)
[21:45] <pleia2> and the quality is really high, not like vistaprint (which is dead cheap, but I only use them for really basic things where quality isn't a huge deal)
[22:15] <GridCube> when will next  meeting be?