dholbachgood morning08:10
=== leoquant is now known as Guest68666
paultagmorning, dholbach 13:14
* paultag kicks back13:14
paultagmorning! :)13:16
trinikronowhat are you kicking13:16
paultagtrinikrono: back, of course13:16
nigelbMorning paultag13:16
trinikronomaybe its a english thing13:16
nigelbIts a paultag thing :P13:16
paultagtrinikrono: to relax :)13:16
paultagnigelb: ohai13:16
paultagtrinikrono: to kick one's feet back (usually up onto something and lean back)13:17
trinikronohaha how can you type like that13:17
paultagtrinikrono: well, I'm at work, so it's a very mild movement :)13:17
trinikronopaultag: do you guys still working on the loco directory13:18
trinikronowell are you13:18
paultagtrinikrono: am I? I'm not, and I was never very involved (except for a few CSS overhauls), it's mostly cjohnston / nigelb / mhall119 13:18
paultagin almost-alphabetical order13:19
nigelbI've mostly switched to handling summit, its exclusively cjohnston for LTP :D13:19
nigelbI just review code.13:19
paultagLTP sounds like an STD, I'm calling it the LD :)13:19
paultagplus, I spend my days at work with "the portal" so I don't want that in my free time13:19
trinikronopaultag: you are familar with the map they have in the LD right13:20
paultag(she's the one who gave me a case of the LTP)13:20
paultagtrinikrono: yeah sure13:20
trinikronoi am trinidad and tobago in the carribbean13:20
paultagtotally, sure13:20
trinikronowhich is seperate from north and south america13:20
paultagI think that was an AlanBell invention, if I recall13:21
paultagtrinikrono: full-ack13:21
trinikronoso they put some of the countries in the caribbean in north13:21
cjohnstonalmost alphabetical order getting 1/3rd right.. hehe ;-)13:21
trinikronoand some in south13:21
paultagtrinikrono: I seem to recall that being a quick hack13:21
paultagtrinikrono: file a bug, let's get that sorted13:21
trinikronowell its going to become a issue13:21
trinikronoi am just thinking at this stage13:21
trinikronoi am helping dominica and martinique to come with teams also13:21
paultagtrinikrono: if it's not done correctly, or it's not sensitive to the local culture, we must fix this13:21
trinikronook great13:22
trinikronoso the best thing would be file a bug13:22
paultagtrinikrono: yeah, totally13:22
trinikronoi need to talk to the guy from haiti first13:22
trinikronomagicfab i believe13:22
paultagtrinikrono: I'm sure someone like cjohnston would be happy to triage that guy13:22
paultagtrinikrono: magicfab is not haiti, I don't think13:22
cjohnstontrinikrono: what teams are wrong?13:22
trinikronowell trinidad is not south america to start with13:22
paultagtrinikrono: yeah, magicfab is in canada13:23
trinikronoi think we need a carribean team or region13:23
nigelbpaultag: He's originally from haiti or something.13:23
paultagnigelb: south america, I thought13:23
nigelbI remember some talk / discussion of two teams from magicfab.13:23
cjohnstontrinikrono: its not done by regions.. they are continents13:23
trinikronowe are a bunch of small islands13:23
trinikronobut some are english french etc13:23
trinikronolike haiti is french13:24
trinikronotrinidad and tobago is english13:24
trinikronodominica is english13:24
trinikronomartinique is french13:24
trinikronobut we are not closeby13:24
paultagtrinikrono: locos have nothing to do with language :)13:24
trinikronoso i belive we should have different teams for the islands13:24
trinikronobut a user was asking that we have all of the people in one place13:25
trinikronolike a caribbean team13:25
trinikronoto centralise the carribbean islands13:25
cjohnstontrinikrono: if people want to create different teams they can13:25
trinikronowell thats the thing13:25
paultagI'm on the page now, cjohnston 13:25
paultagit's confusing me13:25
paultagI can't tell which is which13:25
paultaglet's block all the islands together13:25
trinikronowell right13:25
trinikronowe do things differently13:26
cjohnstonpaultag: im trying to figure out.. i believe it may have been czajkowski who did the continents, but im not sure.13:26
paultagcjohnston: that's not the issue here, dude13:26
paultagcjohnston: http://loco.ubuntu.com/ <- image13:26
paultagcjohnston: find haiti13:26
cjohnstonpaultag: your talking the big one irght?13:26
paultagsee how it's hard to select? it's not exactly clear which bit it's a part of13:26
paultagcjohnston: yeah13:26
trinikronoyes or trinidad13:26
paultagor trinidad13:27
paultagor any of the islands, really13:27
trinikronowe are in south america13:27
trinikronoand haiti is in north america13:27
paultagcjohnston: can you reproduce>13:27
trinikronoi nearly fell of my chair when i first saw it13:27
cjohnstonpaultag: according to wikipedia, T&T is south america...13:27
paultagcjohnston: then you must block out all those islands to their block by hand13:27
paultagcjohnston: it looks like an arbatrary split now13:28
paultagunless it's correct13:28
trinikronohave a look see13:28
cjohnstonon the actual map it may be... i dont know.. but afaik the teams are where the teams belong.. so if you know that the team is in south america, then click south america13:28
trinikronoalso known as west indies13:28
paultagtrinikrono: theres a block there that says it's considerd part of north america13:29
cjohnstontrinikrono: its by continent... 13:29
paultagGeopolitically, the West Indies are usually regarded as a subregion of North America13:29
paultagactually, from my eye it looks mostly ok13:30
paultaglooking at where it is split13:30
trinikronoso are we considered a part of north america then13:31
paultagtrinikrono: just like canada and mexico13:31
paultagaccording to this page13:32
cjohnstontrinikrono: according to wikipedia T&T is south america13:32
czajkowskieh what have i done now...13:32
cjohnstonim not saying wikipedia is always correct, but we dont have hundreds of hours to do research13:32
latinachica_Well that info is in correct13:32
cjohnstonczajkowski: nothing wrong..13:32
czajkowskiah ok13:32
paultagczajkowski: everything wrong13:32
latinachica_We are In the Caribbean13:32
cjohnstonczajkowski: did you assign the continents to teams?13:33
paultagno no no, that's not the point, man13:33
czajkowskisome not all13:33
trinikronolatinachica_: we are considered a subregion of north america13:33
paultagtrinikrono: to be totally fair, we don't have central mexico on there13:33
latinachica_Which is the West Indies When we have mail internationally it is sent to the West Indies in the Caribbean and NOT the americas13:33
paultagerm, america13:33
czajkowskimails were sent tellin teams to di it13:33
paultagnot mexico13:33
paultagthat'd be silly13:33
* paultag shuffles off13:34
trinikronoczajkowski: is it something i can change in the LD?13:34
mhall119ok, so is the problem that the team is listed on the wrong continent, or that the big map hilights it with south america?13:34
paultagmhall119: purely display13:34
paultagso far as I can tell13:35
mhall119paultag: in that case, we've been wanting to get rid of the giant map anyway, as part of the front-page refresh for jono13:35
trinikronopaultag: that wasnt what i was talking about13:35
paultagwhoh, ok, ok ok13:35
paultagI'm hella wrong13:35
* mhall119 copy/pastes that for later ;)13:35
trinikronoi guess it isnt a issue as they are only 2 teams from the caribbean13:35
trinikronobut other islands have been talking to me13:36
cjohnstontrinikrono: i guess i dont understand the issue13:36
paultagapparently, nor do I13:36
paultaglet's start over13:36
trinikronocjohnston: can we have the caribbean seperate from north and south america13:36
paultagHi, trinikrono!13:36
cjohnstontrinikrono: no. 13:37
trinikronowell ok13:37
trinikronothen the only thing to do is13:37
cjohnstontrinikrono: its by continent13:37
mhall119trinikrono: caribbean isn't a continent13:37
czajkowskitrinikrono care to start again13:37
trinikronosure sure13:37
trinikronoi am kurt belgrave from the caribbean island of trinidad and tobago13:37
mhall119trinikrono: if you want to make an umbrella team for the caribbean teams in Launchpad,you can do that13:37
paultagHi, Kurt!13:37
trinikronomhall119: great!13:37
paultagoh sick13:38
mhall119trinikrono: but that won't be displayed in loco.ubuntu.com13:38
trinikronothe teams where asking me to have a unified team13:38
trinikronothats ok13:38
trinikronoat least we would have a headquarters13:38
trinikronowe are seperate from both north and south america13:38
paultagthat's fine :)13:38
paultagit's your team13:38
paultagyou can control the membership13:38
trinikronoas you would see we are a bunch of little islands13:38
cjohnstontrinikrono: they still have to be associated with a continent13:39
trinikronook well thanks13:39
trinikronothe teams in the LD13:39
trinikrononeed to north america?13:39
cjohnstontrinikrono: it depends on the team. Trinidad and Tobago seems to be in south america, so it is associated with south america13:40
mhall119trinikrono: we've been sticking to geological, not geopolitical, associations13:40
trinikronowell are nex to venzeula13:40
trinikronobut we are english and most of the south american are spanish13:41
mhall119except Brazil13:41
trinikronoso its no good for communication13:41
mhall119no, but it is good for locating13:41
mhall119which is the only reason we have it grouped by continent13:41
latinachica_They rest of the world need to find us properly13:42
latinachica_They need to learn from now13:42
latinachica_We are the CAribbean13:42
czajkowskitrinikrono same saud for eu.  its just about grouping to make things easier13:42
trinikronoso in the LD13:42
trinikronoi put the caribbean as the region13:43
trinikronoin the details page13:43
mhall119that would be fine13:43
trinikronoill make a launchpad team and try to get the other islands to join it13:44
trinikronoand then we will see from there13:45
cjohnstonczajkowski: there are now three croatian teams.. all different13:45
czajkowskiive mailed them13:46
trinikronoive also come to report of the sucess of our facebook group14:08
trinikronoin trinidad and tobago everyone uses facebook and i found the forums and mailing list to be slow14:09
trinikronoand now we have 105 members :D14:09
trinikronomhall119: yes its good for sending people who we give cds too14:12
trinikronoi am trying to get members to add new members too 14:13
trinikronohopefully 300 members by next year sometime14:13
trinikronothen i keep moving them across to launchpad14:13
mhall119trinikrono: social media is a great resource for that, I'm glad it's working out for you14:19
paultag/nick crabbytag14:19
paultagsometimes I hate the rif-raff that shows up in #fluxbox14:19
trinikronowell its just nice to have a meeting where people show up14:20
mhall119heh, rif-raff14:23
* mhall119 is sorely tempted to /join now14:23
paultagi've had a quick /ignore trigger finger lately14:23
dholbachhey paultag14:46
AlanBellpaultag: no, the live map is not my invention15:46
paultagAlanBell: you did the mockup, then? I can't recall what you did15:46
AlanBellI wanted to do a second level of maps, and I did some prototypes for that15:46
paultagbut you're guilty of something15:46
AlanBellyeah, guilty of something :)15:47
AlanBellI want to get rid of /teams and replace it with /europe /asia /americas etc, each with maps on15:47
AlanBellthe /teams page is really really full of sub-optimalness15:48
paultagyeah, I remember that now15:49
paultagWhy don't we get a canonical UI'er to help15:49
paultagOh wait, none of them help the community ;)15:49
paultagbut really, we do need a UI'er on that15:50
czajkowskiAlanBell: oh no.... why 15:50
AlanBellwhy what?15:50
paultagczajkowski: I seem to recall the argument that it was confusing and disorderly15:50
AlanBelland slow15:51
czajkowskiwhy are you moving team off /team page 15:51
czajkowskiI understand the not a map 15:51
AlanBellsplitting it15:51
paultagoh jeez15:52
paultaglet's not do this again15:52
paultagwe had this flame war a few months back15:52
AlanBellso on the home page I click on Africa for example, it doesn't need to show me anything but africa15:52
czajkowskiclearly it wasn't hot enough :p15:52
* AlanBell would just like to say czajkowski is awesome15:52
AlanBellso instead of linking to an anchor link http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/#Africa it would go to http://loco.ubuntu.com/Africa and not load all the other continents I just indicated I didn't want to see :015:53
AlanBellI can do that pretty easily in fact, without needing the maps15:54
czajkowskiok I seem to be confused 15:54
czajkowskigranted this is easy to happen 15:54
* paultag walks away . o O (what have I done!)15:54
czajkowskiI assumed we were just getting rid of the massive map 15:54
AlanBellwhat massive map?15:55
AlanBellhttp://loco.ubuntu.com/media/images/map.png this one?15:55
* trinikrono waits for paultag to kickback15:56
* paultag kicks back, and watches the fight over a pina colada15:56
AlanBellthere is no fighting!15:57
paultagand my name's jo-anne15:57
czajkowskino myself and AlanBell are having a normal conversation15:57
czajkowskio flaming here15:57
czajkowskino 15:58
AlanBellindeed not, especially as I am seeing czajkowski in a pub on friday15:58
AlanBellI kind of like the world map, just when I click on a continent I find it odd that it shows me stuff I didn't click on in a scary big list, it just scrolls me to the anchor point I asked for in the list16:00
AlanBellplus of course if I click on south america it can't scroll that far so shows me North America16:01
AlanBellaaaanyhow, what I can do, is add new pages for the continents, leaving /teams right where it is for people who are not scared of it, and link the map to the continent pages16:01
AlanBellthen we can add friendly maps to the continent pages when we feel like it16:02
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
mhall119AlanBell: +116:03
mhall119paultag: we have a Canonical UI'er helping us on summit currently16:04
AlanBellmhall119: would I be right in thinking that /teams is a bit unfriendly to the database? does it have to instantiate every team object to get the name and appoved status?16:04
mhall119AlanBell: it does that, yes, but that's not terribly unfriendly thanks to Django's ORM16:05
mhall119AlanBell: the way the page is built is unfriendly to the CPU though16:05
paultagmhall119: because of the whole linaro thing, right?16:05
mhall119it used to be worse on the db, but I did some optimizing of that a while back16:05
paultagmhall119: that's not really community, they've been driving summit hard16:05
mhall119paultag: no, because we asked him to help and he said 'yes'16:05
paultagI'm sure someone @canonical asked them to16:05
mhall119yeah, me16:06
nigelbI thought they came to us telling  "it sucks, let us help you" :)16:06
paultagI wish people said that to me16:06
mhall119nigelb: I like my history better ;)16:06
paultagit seems like it's not feasable to get people to help with things I care about :)16:08
paultagperhaps because what I care about is not what others care about16:08
mhall119if you had more capital...16:09
paultagmhall119: you and your clout-fueled approach to f/oss :)16:10
paultagmhall119: so I was thinking about it, and what it strikes me as is mooshing a construct we have on something that's not totally applicable. It works in a lot of ways, and it may be a useful way to look at some things, but I can't imagine that's a great way to do f/oss-ology16:11
mhall119paultag: you're right in that it's not a perfect analogy, I'm just trying to find the closes approximation to a real-world system we understand, in the hopes that it will give us (and me especially) a better understanding of how to make the f/oss ecosystem run better16:13
paultagmhall119: sure, but one critical bit that you can't express with that model is something like forking16:13
mhall119I'm working on that16:13
paultagforking should never happen with your model, and if it does, it requires lots of high clout people16:13
mhall119well forking rarely happens, so I think my model isn't too far off already16:14
paultagwhereas there are forks by a few pissed off folks who see an opening16:14
mhall119let me clarify, forks rarely succeed16:14
paultagand when they do, there's often a merge16:14
mhall119for exactly the reasons my model says they shouldn't happen16:14
mhall119so again, not 100% accurate, but possibly close enough to be useful16:15
mhall119which, really, is as good as any economic model gets16:15
paultagwell, I'm not super convinced economics are the right way to model foss16:16
paultagI don't think it's *wrong*16:16
paultagI just don't think it's right16:16
mhall119that's because you still see it as art16:16
paultagto some degree, yes, but I don't think that's how I'd classify programs16:17
paultagI think that code is like poetry, but that's a different issue :)16:17
mhall119art has totally different motivating factors than labor, which is why you don't see the economic influences16:18
paultagI see them, but I think they're emergent from the social constructs that we've put up16:19
mhall119but not everybody feels the same way as you, and even artists have to eat ;)16:19
paultagmhall119: no one's above dumpster diving ;)16:19
DdpbfHi all, i am memmber of serbian loco. I have one question regarding loco irc channels 16:19
paultagHi, Ddpbf!16:19
Ddpbfcould we have more than 2 irc channels16:19
paultagsure! :) just try and keep them in your namespace :)16:20
Ddpbfthanks paul16:20
paultagso if I'm in #ubuntu-foo, try to put it in #ubuntu-foo-bar16:20
paultagsure thing!16:20
Ddpbfwe need offtopic channel :D16:20
paultagsounds perfect :)16:20
Ddpbfcya all16:20
paultagmhall119: I think we see f/oss (all too often) as exchanging goods & services (which I've been happy to use as an analogy, when I try to make it look like Communism, and it does), but I'm not sure that's right16:21
paultagwhich is why I am reluctant to make that case strongly in any sort of public way16:22
paultagit's more like evolution16:22
paultagsomeone who's totally effective in one thing may harm another, basically, people are bacteria16:23
paultagforks behave like evolving life-forms16:23
paultagthe users are like the enviroment16:24
paultagand coders are tweeking dna ;)16:24
mhall119paultag: you can boil down capitalism, communism and gift-economies to the same basic forces of human nature16:24
paultagwhich is why I think they emerge in a lot of ways16:24
paultagbut I think in a lot of ways, an economic analyis focuses too much on the exchange of goods & services16:24
mhall119so, I've already determined that we don't work much like a capital market16:24
mhall119and we have some key differences from a gift-economy16:25
mhall119your suggested readings on Marx are next on my list to investigate16:25
paultagI think theories of his apply very nicely to f/oss, yeah16:25
mhall119but I suspect that there will be some big differences from communism as well16:25
paultagthere will be16:25
paultagin a lot of pretty glaring ways16:25
paultagnamely, there's no scarcity16:25
mhall119but I'm slowing putting together a broader idea of how the f/loss economy operates16:25
mhall119as a hybrid of multiple kinds of systems16:26
mhall119there's always scarcity in something16:26
paultagI still think there's a way to look at this biologically16:26
mhall119write it up then16:26
paultagI need to think it out first ;)16:26
mhall119I'm not biologist, but you know where to find me if you want to bounce ideas around16:27
paultagtotally, I'm not either, so I'm not sure how well this all applies either16:27
paultagI think the main reason people react to f/oss == communism is that people see darwinism in f/oss16:28
paultag(e.g. you loose all your money)16:28
paultagand what better place to model that then in a virtual landscape with all sorts of deformed monsters being made by 12-year-olds worldwide16:29
paultagand the big, bad well-designed t-rex eating everyone16:29
* mhall119 doesn't follow16:29
paultagyeah, me neither16:29
paultagthis is why I need to think it out16:29
paultagbut I'm sure there's something there16:30
dakerhttps://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/1677527908/gnumad.png <- LoL18:29
mhall119daker: lol18:58

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