[08:10] good morning === leoquant is now known as Guest68666 [13:14] morning, dholbach [13:14] * paultag kicks back [13:16] mornings! [13:16] morning! :) [13:16] what are you kicking [13:16] trinikrono: back, of course [13:16] ok [13:16] Morning paultag [13:16] maybe its a english thing [13:16] Its a paultag thing :P [13:16] trinikrono: to relax :) [13:16] nigelb: ohai [13:17] trinikrono: to kick one's feet back (usually up onto something and lean back) [13:17] haha how can you type like that [13:17] trinikrono: well, I'm at work, so it's a very mild movement :) [13:18] paultag: do you guys still working on the loco directory [13:18] well are you [13:18] trinikrono: am I? I'm not, and I was never very involved (except for a few CSS overhauls), it's mostly cjohnston / nigelb / mhall119 [13:19] in almost-alphabetical order [13:19] I've mostly switched to handling summit, its exclusively cjohnston for LTP :D [13:19] I just review code. [13:19] LTP sounds like an STD, I'm calling it the LD :) [13:19] hahaa [13:19] plus, I spend my days at work with "the portal" so I don't want that in my free time [13:20] paultag: you are familar with the map they have in the LD right [13:20] (she's the one who gave me a case of the LTP) [13:20] trinikrono: yeah sure [13:20] i am trinidad and tobago in the carribbean [13:20] totally, sure [13:20] which is seperate from north and south america [13:21] I think that was an AlanBell invention, if I recall [13:21] trinikrono: full-ack [13:21] so they put some of the countries in the caribbean in north [13:21] almost alphabetical order getting 1/3rd right.. hehe ;-) [13:21] and some in south [13:21] trinikrono: I seem to recall that being a quick hack [13:21] trinikrono: file a bug, let's get that sorted [13:21] well its going to become a issue [13:21] i am just thinking at this stage [13:21] i am helping dominica and martinique to come with teams also [13:21] trinikrono: if it's not done correctly, or it's not sensitive to the local culture, we must fix this [13:22] ok great [13:22] so the best thing would be file a bug [13:22] trinikrono: yeah, totally [13:22] i need to talk to the guy from haiti first [13:22] magicfab i believe [13:22] trinikrono: I'm sure someone like cjohnston would be happy to triage that guy [13:22] trinikrono: magicfab is not haiti, I don't think [13:22] trinikrono: what teams are wrong? [13:22] haha [13:22] well trinidad is not south america to start with [13:23] trinikrono: yeah, magicfab is in canada [13:23] i think we need a carribean team or region [13:23] paultag: He's originally from haiti or something. [13:23] nigelb: south america, I thought [13:23] I remember some talk / discussion of two teams from magicfab. [13:23] trinikrono: its not done by regions.. they are continents [13:23] we are a bunch of small islands [13:23] but some are english french etc [13:24] like haiti is french [13:24] trinidad and tobago is english [13:24] dominica is english [13:24] martinique is french [13:24] but we are not closeby [13:24] trinikrono: locos have nothing to do with language :) [13:24] so i belive we should have different teams for the islands [13:25] but a user was asking that we have all of the people in one place [13:25] like a caribbean team [13:25] to centralise the carribbean islands [13:25] trinikrono: if people want to create different teams they can [13:25] well thats the thing [13:25] I'm on the page now, cjohnston [13:25] it's confusing me [13:25] I can't tell which is which [13:25] let's block all the islands together [13:25] :D [13:25] well right [13:26] we do things differently [13:26] paultag: im trying to figure out.. i believe it may have been czajkowski who did the continents, but im not sure. [13:26] cjohnston: that's not the issue here, dude [13:26] cjohnston: http://loco.ubuntu.com/ <- image [13:26] cjohnston: find haiti [13:26] paultag: your talking the big one irght? [13:26] see how it's hard to select? it's not exactly clear which bit it's a part of [13:26] cjohnston: yeah [13:26] hahahaa [13:26] yes or trinidad [13:27] or trinidad [13:27] or any of the islands, really [13:27] we are in south america [13:27] and haiti is in north america [13:27] cjohnston: can you reproduce> [13:27] i nearly fell of my chair when i first saw it [13:27] paultag: according to wikipedia, T&T is south america... [13:27] cjohnston: then you must block out all those islands to their block by hand [13:28] cjohnston: it looks like an arbatrary split now [13:28] unless it's correct [13:28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean [13:28] have a look see [13:28] on the actual map it may be... i dont know.. but afaik the teams are where the teams belong.. so if you know that the team is in south america, then click south america [13:28] also known as west indies [13:29] trinikrono: theres a block there that says it's considerd part of north america [13:29] trinikrono: its by continent... [13:29] Geopolitically, the West Indies are usually regarded as a subregion of North America [13:30] actually, from my eye it looks mostly ok [13:30] looking at where it is split [13:31] so are we considered a part of north america then [13:31] trinikrono: just like canada and mexico [13:32] according to this page [13:32] trinikrono: according to wikipedia T&T is south america [13:32] eh what have i done now... [13:32] im not saying wikipedia is always correct, but we dont have hundreds of hours to do research [13:32] haha [13:32] Well that info is in correct [13:32] czajkowski: nothing wrong.. [13:32] ah ok [13:32] czajkowski: everything wrong [13:32] We are In the Caribbean [13:33] czajkowski: did you assign the continents to teams? [13:33] no no no, that's not the point, man [13:33] some not all [13:33] latinachica_: we are considered a subregion of north america [13:33] ok [13:33] trinikrono: to be totally fair, we don't have central mexico on there [13:33] Which is the West Indies When we have mail internationally it is sent to the West Indies in the Caribbean and NOT the americas [13:33] erm, america [13:33] mails were sent tellin teams to di it [13:33] not mexico [13:33] that'd be silly [13:34] * paultag shuffles off [13:34] haha [13:34] czajkowski: is it something i can change in the LD? [13:34] yes [13:34] ok, so is the problem that the team is listed on the wrong continent, or that the big map hilights it with south america? [13:34] mhall119: purely display [13:35] so far as I can tell [13:35] paultag: in that case, we've been wanting to get rid of the giant map anyway, as part of the front-page refresh for jono [13:35] paultag: that wasnt what i was talking about [13:35] whoh, ok, ok ok [13:35] I'm hella wrong [13:35] * mhall119 copy/pastes that for later ;) [13:35] i guess it isnt a issue as they are only 2 teams from the caribbean [13:36] but other islands have been talking to me [13:36] trinikrono: i guess i dont understand the issue [13:36] apparently, nor do I [13:36] let's start over [13:36] cjohnston: can we have the caribbean seperate from north and south america [13:36] Hi, trinikrono! [13:36] lol [13:37] trinikrono: no. [13:37] morning! [13:37] well ok [13:37] then the only thing to do is [13:37] trinikrono: its by continent [13:37] trinikrono: caribbean isn't a continent [13:37] trinikrono care to start again [13:37] sure sure [13:37] i am kurt belgrave from the caribbean island of trinidad and tobago [13:37] trinikrono: if you want to make an umbrella team for the caribbean teams in Launchpad,you can do that [13:37] Hi, Kurt! [13:37] mhall119: great! [13:38] oh sick [13:38] trinikrono: but that won't be displayed in loco.ubuntu.com [13:38] the teams where asking me to have a unified team [13:38] thats ok [13:38] at least we would have a headquarters [13:38] we are seperate from both north and south america [13:38] that's fine :) [13:38] it's your team [13:38] Great [13:38] you can control the membership [13:38] as you would see we are a bunch of little islands [13:39] trinikrono: they still have to be associated with a continent [13:39] ok well thanks [13:39] yes [13:39] the teams in the LD [13:39] need to north america? [13:40] trinikrono: it depends on the team. Trinidad and Tobago seems to be in south america, so it is associated with south america [13:40] trinikrono: we've been sticking to geological, not geopolitical, associations [13:40] well are nex to venzeula [13:41] but we are english and most of the south american are spanish [13:41] except Brazil [13:41] so its no good for communication [13:41] no, but it is good for locating [13:41] indeeed [13:41] which is the only reason we have it grouped by continent [13:42] They rest of the world need to find us properly [13:42] They need to learn from now [13:42] We are the CAribbean [13:42] trinikrono same saud for eu. its just about grouping to make things easier [13:42] okies [13:42] so in the LD [13:43] i put the caribbean as the region [13:43] in the details page [13:43] ? [13:43] that would be fine [13:43] :) [13:44] ill make a launchpad team and try to get the other islands to join it [13:45] and then we will see from there [13:45] czajkowski: there are now three croatian teams.. all different [13:46] ive mailed them [13:46] ty [14:08] ive also come to report of the sucess of our facebook group [14:08] http://www.facebook.com/groups/285982144750674/ [14:09] in trinidad and tobago everyone uses facebook and i found the forums and mailing list to be slow [14:09] and now we have 105 members :D [14:12] nice [14:12] mhall119: yes its good for sending people who we give cds too [14:13] i am trying to get members to add new members too [14:13] hopefully 300 members by next year sometime [14:13] then i keep moving them across to launchpad [14:19] trinikrono: social media is a great resource for that, I'm glad it's working out for you [14:19] /nick crabbytag [14:19] sometimes I hate the rif-raff that shows up in #fluxbox [14:20] well its just nice to have a meeting where people show up [14:23] heh, rif-raff [14:23] >:| [14:23] * mhall119 is sorely tempted to /join now [14:23] i've had a quick /ignore trigger finger lately [14:23] ;) [14:46] hey paultag [14:47] o/ [15:46] paultag: no, the live map is not my invention [15:46] AlanBell: you did the mockup, then? I can't recall what you did [15:46] I wanted to do a second level of maps, and I did some prototypes for that [15:46] but you're guilty of something [15:47] yeah, guilty of something :) [15:47] :) [15:47] I want to get rid of /teams and replace it with /europe /asia /americas etc, each with maps on [15:48] the /teams page is really really full of sub-optimalness [15:49] ahh [15:49] yeah, I remember that now [15:49] Why don't we get a canonical UI'er to help [15:49] Oh wait, none of them help the community ;) [15:49] (zing!) [15:50] but really, we do need a UI'er on that [15:50] AlanBell: oh no.... why [15:50] why what? [15:50] czajkowski: I seem to recall the argument that it was confusing and disorderly [15:51] and slow [15:51] why are you moving team off /team page [15:51] I understand the not a map [15:51] splitting it [15:52] oh jeez [15:52] let's not do this again [15:52] :( [15:52] we had this flame war a few months back [15:52] so on the home page I click on Africa for example, it doesn't need to show me anything but africa [15:52] clearly it wasn't hot enough :p [15:52] :P [15:52] * AlanBell would just like to say czajkowski is awesome [15:53] so instead of linking to an anchor link http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/#Africa it would go to http://loco.ubuntu.com/Africa and not load all the other continents I just indicated I didn't want to see :0 [15:54] I can do that pretty easily in fact, without needing the maps [15:54] ok I seem to be confused [15:54] granted this is easy to happen [15:54] * paultag walks away . o O (what have I done!) [15:54] I assumed we were just getting rid of the massive map [15:55] what massive map? [15:55] http://loco.ubuntu.com/media/images/map.png this one? [15:56] yes [15:56] * trinikrono waits for paultag to kickback [15:56] * paultag kicks back, and watches the fight over a pina colada [15:57] there is no fighting! [15:57] and my name's jo-anne [15:57] no myself and AlanBell are having a normal conversation [15:57] o flaming here [15:58] no [15:58] indeed not, especially as I am seeing czajkowski in a pub on friday [15:59] :( [15:59] :) [16:00] I kind of like the world map, just when I click on a continent I find it odd that it shows me stuff I didn't click on in a scary big list, it just scrolls me to the anchor point I asked for in the list [16:01] plus of course if I click on south america it can't scroll that far so shows me North America [16:01] aaaanyhow, what I can do, is add new pages for the continents, leaving /teams right where it is for people who are not scared of it, and link the map to the continent pages [16:02] then we can add friendly maps to the continent pages when we feel like it === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [16:03] AlanBell: +1 [16:04] paultag: we have a Canonical UI'er helping us on summit currently [16:04] mhall119: would I be right in thinking that /teams is a bit unfriendly to the database? does it have to instantiate every team object to get the name and appoved status? [16:05] AlanBell: it does that, yes, but that's not terribly unfriendly thanks to Django's ORM [16:05] AlanBell: the way the page is built is unfriendly to the CPU though [16:05] mhall119: because of the whole linaro thing, right? [16:05] it used to be worse on the db, but I did some optimizing of that a while back [16:05] mhall119: that's not really community, they've been driving summit hard [16:05] paultag: no, because we asked him to help and he said 'yes' [16:05] I'm sure someone @canonical asked them to [16:06] yeah, me [16:06] I thought they came to us telling "it sucks, let us help you" :) [16:06] I wish people said that to me [16:06] nigelb: I like my history better ;) [16:08] it seems like it's not feasable to get people to help with things I care about :) [16:08] perhaps because what I care about is not what others care about [16:09] if you had more capital... [16:10] mhall119: you and your clout-fueled approach to f/oss :) [16:11] mhall119: so I was thinking about it, and what it strikes me as is mooshing a construct we have on something that's not totally applicable. It works in a lot of ways, and it may be a useful way to look at some things, but I can't imagine that's a great way to do f/oss-ology [16:13] paultag: you're right in that it's not a perfect analogy, I'm just trying to find the closes approximation to a real-world system we understand, in the hopes that it will give us (and me especially) a better understanding of how to make the f/oss ecosystem run better [16:13] mhall119: sure, but one critical bit that you can't express with that model is something like forking [16:13] I'm working on that [16:13] forking should never happen with your model, and if it does, it requires lots of high clout people [16:14] well forking rarely happens, so I think my model isn't too far off already [16:14] whereas there are forks by a few pissed off folks who see an opening [16:14] let me clarify, forks rarely succeed [16:14] sure [16:14] and when they do, there's often a merge [16:14] for exactly the reasons my model says they shouldn't happen [16:15] so again, not 100% accurate, but possibly close enough to be useful [16:15] mm. [16:15] which, really, is as good as any economic model gets [16:16] well, I'm not super convinced economics are the right way to model foss [16:16] I don't think it's *wrong* [16:16] I just don't think it's right [16:16] that's because you still see it as art [16:17] to some degree, yes, but I don't think that's how I'd classify programs [16:17] I think that code is like poetry, but that's a different issue :) [16:18] art has totally different motivating factors than labor, which is why you don't see the economic influences [16:19] I see them, but I think they're emergent from the social constructs that we've put up [16:19] but not everybody feels the same way as you, and even artists have to eat ;) [16:19] mhall119: no one's above dumpster diving ;) [16:19] Hi all, i am memmber of serbian loco. I have one question regarding loco irc channels [16:19] Hi, Ddpbf! [16:19] could we have more than 2 irc channels [16:20] sure! :) just try and keep them in your namespace :) [16:20] thanks paul [16:20] so if I'm in #ubuntu-foo, try to put it in #ubuntu-foo-bar [16:20] :) [16:20] sure thing! [16:20] we need offtopic channel :D [16:20] sounds perfect :) [16:20] cya all [16:20] o/ [16:20] \o [16:21] heh [16:21] mhall119: I think we see f/oss (all too often) as exchanging goods & services (which I've been happy to use as an analogy, when I try to make it look like Communism, and it does), but I'm not sure that's right [16:22] which is why I am reluctant to make that case strongly in any sort of public way [16:22] it's more like evolution [16:23] someone who's totally effective in one thing may harm another, basically, people are bacteria [16:23] forks behave like evolving life-forms [16:24] the users are like the enviroment [16:24] and coders are tweeking dna ;) [16:24] paultag: you can boil down capitalism, communism and gift-economies to the same basic forces of human nature [16:24] sure [16:24] which is why I think they emerge in a lot of ways [16:24] but I think in a lot of ways, an economic analyis focuses too much on the exchange of goods & services [16:24] so, I've already determined that we don't work much like a capital market [16:25] and we have some key differences from a gift-economy [16:25] granted [16:25] your suggested readings on Marx are next on my list to investigate [16:25] I think theories of his apply very nicely to f/oss, yeah [16:25] but I suspect that there will be some big differences from communism as well [16:25] there will be [16:25] in a lot of pretty glaring ways [16:25] namely, there's no scarcity [16:25] but I'm slowing putting together a broader idea of how the f/loss economy operates [16:26] as a hybrid of multiple kinds of systems [16:26] there's always scarcity in something [16:26] I still think there's a way to look at this biologically [16:26] write it up then [16:26] I need to think it out first ;) [16:27] I'm not biologist, but you know where to find me if you want to bounce ideas around [16:27] totally, I'm not either, so I'm not sure how well this all applies either [16:28] I think the main reason people react to f/oss == communism is that people see darwinism in f/oss [16:28] (e.g. you loose all your money) [16:29] and what better place to model that then in a virtual landscape with all sorts of deformed monsters being made by 12-year-olds worldwide [16:29] and the big, bad well-designed t-rex eating everyone [16:29] * mhall119 doesn't follow [16:29] yeah, me neither [16:29] heh [16:29] this is why I need to think it out [16:30] but I'm sure there's something there [18:29] https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/1677527908/gnumad.png <- LoL [18:58] daker: lol