[08:10] <dholbach> good morning
[13:14] <paultag> morning, dholbach 
[13:14]  * paultag kicks back
[13:16] <trinikrono> mornings!
[13:16] <paultag> morning! :)
[13:16] <trinikrono> what are you kicking
[13:16] <paultag> trinikrono: back, of course
[13:16] <trinikrono> ok
[13:16] <nigelb> Morning paultag
[13:16] <trinikrono> maybe its a english thing
[13:16] <nigelb> Its a paultag thing :P
[13:16] <paultag> trinikrono: to relax :)
[13:16] <paultag> nigelb: ohai
[13:17] <paultag> trinikrono: to kick one's feet back (usually up onto something and lean back)
[13:17] <trinikrono> haha how can you type like that
[13:17] <paultag> trinikrono: well, I'm at work, so it's a very mild movement :)
[13:18] <trinikrono> paultag: do you guys still working on the loco directory
[13:18] <trinikrono> well are you
[13:18] <paultag> trinikrono: am I? I'm not, and I was never very involved (except for a few CSS overhauls), it's mostly cjohnston / nigelb / mhall119 
[13:19] <paultag> in almost-alphabetical order
[13:19] <nigelb> I've mostly switched to handling summit, its exclusively cjohnston for LTP :D
[13:19] <nigelb> I just review code.
[13:19] <paultag> LTP sounds like an STD, I'm calling it the LD :)
[13:19] <trinikrono> hahaa
[13:19] <paultag> plus, I spend my days at work with "the portal" so I don't want that in my free time
[13:20] <trinikrono> paultag: you are familar with the map they have in the LD right
[13:20] <paultag> (she's the one who gave me a case of the LTP)
[13:20] <paultag> trinikrono: yeah sure
[13:20] <trinikrono> i am trinidad and tobago in the carribbean
[13:20] <paultag> totally, sure
[13:20] <trinikrono> which is seperate from north and south america
[13:21] <paultag> I think that was an AlanBell invention, if I recall
[13:21] <paultag> trinikrono: full-ack
[13:21] <trinikrono> so they put some of the countries in the caribbean in north
[13:21] <cjohnston> almost alphabetical order getting 1/3rd right.. hehe ;-)
[13:21] <trinikrono> and some in south
[13:21] <paultag> trinikrono: I seem to recall that being a quick hack
[13:21] <paultag> trinikrono: file a bug, let's get that sorted
[13:21] <trinikrono> well its going to become a issue
[13:21] <trinikrono> i am just thinking at this stage
[13:21] <trinikrono> i am helping dominica and martinique to come with teams also
[13:21] <paultag> trinikrono: if it's not done correctly, or it's not sensitive to the local culture, we must fix this
[13:22] <trinikrono> ok great
[13:22] <trinikrono> so the best thing would be file a bug
[13:22] <paultag> trinikrono: yeah, totally
[13:22] <trinikrono> i need to talk to the guy from haiti first
[13:22] <trinikrono> magicfab i believe
[13:22] <paultag> trinikrono: I'm sure someone like cjohnston would be happy to triage that guy
[13:22] <paultag> trinikrono: magicfab is not haiti, I don't think
[13:22] <cjohnston> trinikrono: what teams are wrong?
[13:22] <trinikrono> haha
[13:22] <trinikrono> well trinidad is not south america to start with
[13:23] <paultag> trinikrono: yeah, magicfab is in canada
[13:23] <trinikrono> i think we need a carribean team or region
[13:23] <nigelb> paultag: He's originally from haiti or something.
[13:23] <paultag> nigelb: south america, I thought
[13:23] <nigelb> I remember some talk / discussion of two teams from magicfab.
[13:23] <cjohnston> trinikrono: its not done by regions.. they are continents
[13:23] <trinikrono> we are a bunch of small islands
[13:23] <trinikrono> but some are english french etc
[13:24] <trinikrono> like haiti is french
[13:24] <trinikrono> trinidad and tobago is english
[13:24] <trinikrono> dominica is english
[13:24] <trinikrono> martinique is french
[13:24] <trinikrono> but we are not closeby
[13:24] <paultag> trinikrono: locos have nothing to do with language :)
[13:24] <trinikrono> so i belive we should have different teams for the islands
[13:25] <trinikrono> but a user was asking that we have all of the people in one place
[13:25] <trinikrono> like a caribbean team
[13:25] <trinikrono> to centralise the carribbean islands
[13:25] <cjohnston> trinikrono: if people want to create different teams they can
[13:25] <trinikrono> well thats the thing
[13:25] <paultag> I'm on the page now, cjohnston 
[13:25] <paultag> it's confusing me
[13:25] <paultag> I can't tell which is which
[13:25] <paultag> let's block all the islands together
[13:25] <trinikrono> :D
[13:25] <trinikrono> well right
[13:26] <trinikrono> we do things differently
[13:26] <cjohnston> paultag: im trying to figure out.. i believe it may have been czajkowski who did the continents, but im not sure.
[13:26] <paultag> cjohnston: that's not the issue here, dude
[13:26] <paultag> cjohnston: http://loco.ubuntu.com/ <- image
[13:26] <paultag> cjohnston: find haiti
[13:26] <cjohnston> paultag: your talking the big one irght?
[13:26] <paultag> see how it's hard to select? it's not exactly clear which bit it's a part of
[13:26] <paultag> cjohnston: yeah
[13:26] <trinikrono> hahahaa
[13:26] <trinikrono> yes or trinidad
[13:27] <paultag> or trinidad
[13:27] <paultag> or any of the islands, really
[13:27] <trinikrono> we are in south america
[13:27] <trinikrono> and haiti is in north america
[13:27] <paultag> cjohnston: can you reproduce>
[13:27] <trinikrono> i nearly fell of my chair when i first saw it
[13:27] <cjohnston> paultag: according to wikipedia, T&T is south america...
[13:27] <paultag> cjohnston: then you must block out all those islands to their block by hand
[13:28] <paultag> cjohnston: it looks like an arbatrary split now
[13:28] <paultag> unless it's correct
[13:28] <trinikrono> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean
[13:28] <trinikrono> have a look see
[13:28] <cjohnston> on the actual map it may be... i dont know.. but afaik the teams are where the teams belong.. so if you know that the team is in south america, then click south america
[13:28] <trinikrono> also known as west indies
[13:29] <paultag> trinikrono: theres a block there that says it's considerd part of north america
[13:29] <cjohnston> trinikrono: its by continent... 
[13:29] <paultag> Geopolitically, the West Indies are usually regarded as a subregion of North America
[13:30] <paultag> actually, from my eye it looks mostly ok
[13:30] <paultag> looking at where it is split
[13:31] <trinikrono> so are we considered a part of north america then
[13:31] <paultag> trinikrono: just like canada and mexico
[13:32] <paultag> according to this page
[13:32] <cjohnston> trinikrono: according to wikipedia T&T is south america
[13:32] <czajkowski> eh what have i done now...
[13:32] <cjohnston> im not saying wikipedia is always correct, but we dont have hundreds of hours to do research
[13:32] <trinikrono> haha
[13:32] <latinachica_> Well that info is in correct
[13:32] <cjohnston> czajkowski: nothing wrong..
[13:32] <czajkowski> ah ok
[13:32] <paultag> czajkowski: everything wrong
[13:32] <latinachica_> We are In the Caribbean
[13:33] <cjohnston> czajkowski: did you assign the continents to teams?
[13:33] <paultag> no no no, that's not the point, man
[13:33] <czajkowski> some not all
[13:33] <trinikrono> latinachica_: we are considered a subregion of north america
[13:33] <cjohnston> ok
[13:33] <paultag> trinikrono: to be totally fair, we don't have central mexico on there
[13:33] <latinachica_> Which is the West Indies When we have mail internationally it is sent to the West Indies in the Caribbean and NOT the americas
[13:33] <paultag> erm, america
[13:33] <czajkowski> mails were sent tellin teams to di it
[13:33] <paultag> not mexico
[13:33] <paultag> that'd be silly
[13:34]  * paultag shuffles off
[13:34] <trinikrono> haha
[13:34] <trinikrono> czajkowski: is it something i can change in the LD?
[13:34] <czajkowski> yes
[13:34] <mhall119> ok, so is the problem that the team is listed on the wrong continent, or that the big map hilights it with south america?
[13:34] <paultag> mhall119: purely display
[13:35] <paultag> so far as I can tell
[13:35] <mhall119> paultag: in that case, we've been wanting to get rid of the giant map anyway, as part of the front-page refresh for jono
[13:35] <trinikrono> paultag: that wasnt what i was talking about
[13:35] <paultag> whoh, ok, ok ok
[13:35] <paultag> I'm hella wrong
[13:35]  * mhall119 copy/pastes that for later ;)
[13:35] <trinikrono> i guess it isnt a issue as they are only 2 teams from the caribbean
[13:36] <trinikrono> but other islands have been talking to me
[13:36] <cjohnston> trinikrono: i guess i dont understand the issue
[13:36] <paultag> apparently, nor do I
[13:36] <paultag> let's start over
[13:36] <trinikrono> cjohnston: can we have the caribbean seperate from north and south america
[13:36] <paultag> Hi, trinikrono!
[13:36] <trinikrono> lol
[13:37] <cjohnston> trinikrono: no. 
[13:37] <trinikrono> morning!
[13:37] <trinikrono> well ok
[13:37] <trinikrono> then the only thing to do is
[13:37] <cjohnston> trinikrono: its by continent
[13:37] <mhall119> trinikrono: caribbean isn't a continent
[13:37] <czajkowski> trinikrono care to start again
[13:37] <trinikrono> sure sure
[13:37] <trinikrono> i am kurt belgrave from the caribbean island of trinidad and tobago
[13:37] <mhall119> trinikrono: if you want to make an umbrella team for the caribbean teams in Launchpad,you can do that
[13:37] <paultag> Hi, Kurt!
[13:37] <trinikrono> mhall119: great!
[13:38] <paultag> oh sick
[13:38] <mhall119> trinikrono: but that won't be displayed in loco.ubuntu.com
[13:38] <trinikrono> the teams where asking me to have a unified team
[13:38] <trinikrono> thats ok
[13:38] <trinikrono> at least we would have a headquarters
[13:38] <trinikrono> we are seperate from both north and south america
[13:38] <paultag> that's fine :)
[13:38] <paultag> it's your team
[13:38] <latinachica_> Great
[13:38] <paultag> you can control the membership
[13:38] <trinikrono> as you would see we are a bunch of little islands
[13:39] <cjohnston> trinikrono: they still have to be associated with a continent
[13:39] <trinikrono> ok well thanks
[13:39] <trinikrono> yes
[13:39] <trinikrono> the teams in the LD
[13:39] <trinikrono> need to north america?
[13:40] <cjohnston> trinikrono: it depends on the team. Trinidad and Tobago seems to be in south america, so it is associated with south america
[13:40] <mhall119> trinikrono: we've been sticking to geological, not geopolitical, associations
[13:40] <trinikrono> well are nex to venzeula
[13:41] <trinikrono> but we are english and most of the south american are spanish
[13:41] <mhall119> except Brazil
[13:41] <trinikrono> so its no good for communication
[13:41] <mhall119> no, but it is good for locating
[13:41] <czajkowski> indeeed
[13:41] <mhall119> which is the only reason we have it grouped by continent
[13:42] <latinachica_> They rest of the world need to find us properly
[13:42] <latinachica_> They need to learn from now
[13:42] <latinachica_> We are the CAribbean
[13:42] <czajkowski> trinikrono same saud for eu.  its just about grouping to make things easier
[13:42] <trinikrono> okies
[13:42] <trinikrono> so in the LD
[13:43] <trinikrono> i put the caribbean as the region
[13:43] <trinikrono> in the details page
[13:43] <trinikrono> ?
[13:43] <mhall119> that would be fine
[13:43] <latinachica_> :)
[13:44] <trinikrono> ill make a launchpad team and try to get the other islands to join it
[13:45] <trinikrono> and then we will see from there
[13:45] <cjohnston> czajkowski: there are now three croatian teams.. all different
[13:46] <czajkowski> ive mailed them
[13:46] <cjohnston> ty
[14:08] <trinikrono> ive also come to report of the sucess of our facebook group
[14:08] <trinikrono> http://www.facebook.com/groups/285982144750674/
[14:09] <trinikrono> in trinidad and tobago everyone uses facebook and i found the forums and mailing list to be slow
[14:09] <trinikrono> and now we have 105 members :D
[14:12] <mhall119> nice
[14:12] <trinikrono> mhall119: yes its good for sending people who we give cds too
[14:13] <trinikrono> i am trying to get members to add new members too 
[14:13] <trinikrono> hopefully 300 members by next year sometime
[14:13] <trinikrono> then i keep moving them across to launchpad
[14:19] <mhall119> trinikrono: social media is a great resource for that, I'm glad it's working out for you
[14:19] <paultag> /nick crabbytag
[14:19] <paultag> sometimes I hate the rif-raff that shows up in #fluxbox
[14:20] <trinikrono> well its just nice to have a meeting where people show up
[14:23] <mhall119> heh, rif-raff
[14:23] <paultag> >:|
[14:23]  * mhall119 is sorely tempted to /join now
[14:23] <paultag> i've had a quick /ignore trigger finger lately
[14:23] <paultag> ;)
[14:46] <dholbach> hey paultag
[14:47] <paultag> o/
[15:46] <AlanBell> paultag: no, the live map is not my invention
[15:46] <paultag> AlanBell: you did the mockup, then? I can't recall what you did
[15:46] <AlanBell> I wanted to do a second level of maps, and I did some prototypes for that
[15:46] <paultag> but you're guilty of something
[15:47] <AlanBell> yeah, guilty of something :)
[15:47] <paultag> :)
[15:47] <AlanBell> I want to get rid of /teams and replace it with /europe /asia /americas etc, each with maps on
[15:48] <AlanBell> the /teams page is really really full of sub-optimalness
[15:49] <paultag> ahh
[15:49] <paultag> yeah, I remember that now
[15:49] <paultag> Why don't we get a canonical UI'er to help
[15:49] <paultag> Oh wait, none of them help the community ;)
[15:49] <paultag> (zing!)
[15:50] <paultag> but really, we do need a UI'er on that
[15:50] <czajkowski> AlanBell: oh no.... why 
[15:50] <AlanBell> why what?
[15:50] <paultag> czajkowski: I seem to recall the argument that it was confusing and disorderly
[15:51] <AlanBell> and slow
[15:51] <czajkowski> why are you moving team off /team page 
[15:51] <czajkowski> I understand the not a map 
[15:51] <AlanBell> splitting it
[15:52] <paultag> oh jeez
[15:52] <paultag> let's not do this again
[15:52] <czajkowski> :(
[15:52] <paultag> we had this flame war a few months back
[15:52] <AlanBell> so on the home page I click on Africa for example, it doesn't need to show me anything but africa
[15:52] <czajkowski> clearly it wasn't hot enough :p
[15:52] <paultag> :P
[15:52]  * AlanBell would just like to say czajkowski is awesome
[15:53] <AlanBell> so instead of linking to an anchor link http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/#Africa it would go to http://loco.ubuntu.com/Africa and not load all the other continents I just indicated I didn't want to see :0
[15:54] <AlanBell> I can do that pretty easily in fact, without needing the maps
[15:54] <czajkowski> ok I seem to be confused 
[15:54] <czajkowski> granted this is easy to happen 
[15:54]  * paultag walks away . o O (what have I done!)
[15:54] <czajkowski> I assumed we were just getting rid of the massive map 
[15:55] <AlanBell> what massive map?
[15:55] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/media/images/map.png this one?
[15:56] <czajkowski> yes
[15:56]  * trinikrono waits for paultag to kickback
[15:56]  * paultag kicks back, and watches the fight over a pina colada
[15:57] <AlanBell> there is no fighting!
[15:57] <paultag> and my name's jo-anne
[15:57] <czajkowski> no myself and AlanBell are having a normal conversation
[15:57] <czajkowski> o flaming here
[15:58] <czajkowski> no 
[15:58] <AlanBell> indeed not, especially as I am seeing czajkowski in a pub on friday
[15:59] <paultag> :(
[15:59] <czajkowski> :)
[16:00] <AlanBell> I kind of like the world map, just when I click on a continent I find it odd that it shows me stuff I didn't click on in a scary big list, it just scrolls me to the anchor point I asked for in the list
[16:01] <AlanBell> plus of course if I click on south america it can't scroll that far so shows me North America
[16:01] <AlanBell> aaaanyhow, what I can do, is add new pages for the continents, leaving /teams right where it is for people who are not scared of it, and link the map to the continent pages
[16:02] <AlanBell> then we can add friendly maps to the continent pages when we feel like it
[16:03] <mhall119> AlanBell: +1
[16:04] <mhall119> paultag: we have a Canonical UI'er helping us on summit currently
[16:04] <AlanBell> mhall119: would I be right in thinking that /teams is a bit unfriendly to the database? does it have to instantiate every team object to get the name and appoved status?
[16:05] <mhall119> AlanBell: it does that, yes, but that's not terribly unfriendly thanks to Django's ORM
[16:05] <mhall119> AlanBell: the way the page is built is unfriendly to the CPU though
[16:05] <paultag> mhall119: because of the whole linaro thing, right?
[16:05] <mhall119> it used to be worse on the db, but I did some optimizing of that a while back
[16:05] <paultag> mhall119: that's not really community, they've been driving summit hard
[16:05] <mhall119> paultag: no, because we asked him to help and he said 'yes'
[16:05] <paultag> I'm sure someone @canonical asked them to
[16:06] <mhall119> yeah, me
[16:06] <nigelb> I thought they came to us telling  "it sucks, let us help you" :)
[16:06] <paultag> I wish people said that to me
[16:06] <mhall119> nigelb: I like my history better ;)
[16:08] <paultag> it seems like it's not feasable to get people to help with things I care about :)
[16:08] <paultag> perhaps because what I care about is not what others care about
[16:09] <mhall119> if you had more capital...
[16:10] <paultag> mhall119: you and your clout-fueled approach to f/oss :)
[16:11] <paultag> mhall119: so I was thinking about it, and what it strikes me as is mooshing a construct we have on something that's not totally applicable. It works in a lot of ways, and it may be a useful way to look at some things, but I can't imagine that's a great way to do f/oss-ology
[16:13] <mhall119> paultag: you're right in that it's not a perfect analogy, I'm just trying to find the closes approximation to a real-world system we understand, in the hopes that it will give us (and me especially) a better understanding of how to make the f/oss ecosystem run better
[16:13] <paultag> mhall119: sure, but one critical bit that you can't express with that model is something like forking
[16:13] <mhall119> I'm working on that
[16:13] <paultag> forking should never happen with your model, and if it does, it requires lots of high clout people
[16:14] <mhall119> well forking rarely happens, so I think my model isn't too far off already
[16:14] <paultag> whereas there are forks by a few pissed off folks who see an opening
[16:14] <mhall119> let me clarify, forks rarely succeed
[16:14] <paultag> sure
[16:14] <paultag> and when they do, there's often a merge
[16:14] <mhall119> for exactly the reasons my model says they shouldn't happen
[16:15] <mhall119> so again, not 100% accurate, but possibly close enough to be useful
[16:15] <paultag> mm.
[16:15] <mhall119> which, really, is as good as any economic model gets
[16:16] <paultag> well, I'm not super convinced economics are the right way to model foss
[16:16] <paultag> I don't think it's *wrong*
[16:16] <paultag> I just don't think it's right
[16:16] <mhall119> that's because you still see it as art
[16:17] <paultag> to some degree, yes, but I don't think that's how I'd classify programs
[16:17] <paultag> I think that code is like poetry, but that's a different issue :)
[16:18] <mhall119> art has totally different motivating factors than labor, which is why you don't see the economic influences
[16:19] <paultag> I see them, but I think they're emergent from the social constructs that we've put up
[16:19] <mhall119> but not everybody feels the same way as you, and even artists have to eat ;)
[16:19] <paultag> mhall119: no one's above dumpster diving ;)
[16:19] <Ddpbf> Hi all, i am memmber of serbian loco. I have one question regarding loco irc channels 
[16:19] <paultag> Hi, Ddpbf!
[16:19] <Ddpbf> could we have more than 2 irc channels
[16:20] <paultag> sure! :) just try and keep them in your namespace :)
[16:20] <Ddpbf> thanks paul
[16:20] <paultag> so if I'm in #ubuntu-foo, try to put it in #ubuntu-foo-bar
[16:20] <Ddpbf> :)
[16:20] <paultag> sure thing!
[16:20] <Ddpbf> we need offtopic channel :D
[16:20] <paultag> sounds perfect :)
[16:20] <Ddpbf> cya all
[16:20] <paultag> o/
[16:20] <Ddpbf> \o
[16:21] <mhall119> heh
[16:21] <paultag> mhall119: I think we see f/oss (all too often) as exchanging goods & services (which I've been happy to use as an analogy, when I try to make it look like Communism, and it does), but I'm not sure that's right
[16:22] <paultag> which is why I am reluctant to make that case strongly in any sort of public way
[16:22] <paultag> it's more like evolution
[16:23] <paultag> someone who's totally effective in one thing may harm another, basically, people are bacteria
[16:23] <paultag> forks behave like evolving life-forms
[16:24] <paultag> the users are like the enviroment
[16:24] <paultag> and coders are tweeking dna ;)
[16:24] <mhall119> paultag: you can boil down capitalism, communism and gift-economies to the same basic forces of human nature
[16:24] <paultag> sure
[16:24] <paultag> which is why I think they emerge in a lot of ways
[16:24] <paultag> but I think in a lot of ways, an economic analyis focuses too much on the exchange of goods & services
[16:24] <mhall119> so, I've already determined that we don't work much like a capital market
[16:25] <mhall119> and we have some key differences from a gift-economy
[16:25] <paultag> granted
[16:25] <mhall119> your suggested readings on Marx are next on my list to investigate
[16:25] <paultag> I think theories of his apply very nicely to f/oss, yeah
[16:25] <mhall119> but I suspect that there will be some big differences from communism as well
[16:25] <paultag> there will be
[16:25] <paultag> in a lot of pretty glaring ways
[16:25] <paultag> namely, there's no scarcity
[16:25] <mhall119> but I'm slowing putting together a broader idea of how the f/loss economy operates
[16:26] <mhall119> as a hybrid of multiple kinds of systems
[16:26] <mhall119> there's always scarcity in something
[16:26] <paultag> I still think there's a way to look at this biologically
[16:26] <mhall119> write it up then
[16:26] <paultag> I need to think it out first ;)
[16:27] <mhall119> I'm not biologist, but you know where to find me if you want to bounce ideas around
[16:27] <paultag> totally, I'm not either, so I'm not sure how well this all applies either
[16:28] <paultag> I think the main reason people react to f/oss == communism is that people see darwinism in f/oss
[16:28] <paultag> (e.g. you loose all your money)
[16:29] <paultag> and what better place to model that then in a virtual landscape with all sorts of deformed monsters being made by 12-year-olds worldwide
[16:29] <paultag> and the big, bad well-designed t-rex eating everyone
[16:29]  * mhall119 doesn't follow
[16:29] <paultag> yeah, me neither
[16:29] <mhall119> heh
[16:29] <paultag> this is why I need to think it out
[16:30] <paultag> but I'm sure there's something there
[18:29] <daker> https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/1677527908/gnumad.png <- LoL
[18:58] <mhall119> daker: lol