[01:33] The rest of 4.7.4 is going into staging now. === ScottK changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: Cookies for Everyone! | 11.10 Released! | Merges: http://pad.ubuntu.com/kubuntu-precise-merges | 4.7.80 : https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Ninjas/Packaging (4.7.4 done) | http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-kubuntu.html TODOs! [01:53] All uploaded. Now let's see how it goes .... === zkriesse is now known as zkriesse_away [08:13] hm, an update for KDE 4.7.3 but no 4.7.4? [10:29] Mamarok: 4.7.4 is in progress for the updates PPA. [10:30] ScottK: OK, I was just wondering why I had almost 400 package updates for 4.7.3 [10:31] I uploaded all of 4.7.3 on Friday for oneiric-proposed. We'll get 4.7.4 in too once it's tested a bit. [10:31] guys, is there any chance that some updates will make it in some future ppa release ? For some days there's been work done on the annoying bug #258916 (polkit crashes on shutdown/reboot) and now there is a patch that fixes it [10:31] Launchpad bug 258916 in Inkscape "Bitmap-type print to printer and preview produces low resolution output" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/258916 [10:32] who_me: #ubuntu-desktop is a better channel to ask about that one since it's not a KDE package. [10:35] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=258916 < -not a KDE bug ? [10:35] KDE bug 258916 in polkit-kde-authentication-agent-1 "PolicyKit1-KDE (polkit-kde-authentication-agent-1) crash on shutdown [g_type_check_instance_is_a, g_object_unref, , PolkitQt1::Agent::Session::Private::~Private]" [Crash,Resolved: fixed] [10:39] who_me: but is the root cause in polkit or in the kde part?? [10:40] it seems it was on the kde part, since the kde dev fixed the crash [10:41] Ah. [10:41] That's a bit different. [10:42] jussi: That's KDE support, so it's ours to take care of. [10:42] ok :) [10:42] who_me: I think we should do an update for that, not sure when it'll get done though. [10:45] sweet, I'm just happy it's fixed === Riddelll is now known as Riddell [12:11] Darkwing: did you come up with anything for the LTS proposal? [12:14] ScottK: hi, I think I fixed all your requests regarding the massif-visualizer package, can you have a look at it today? [12:17] could someone please verify the amarok SRU: bug #854030 [12:17] Launchpad bug 854030 in amarok (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Amarok uses 100% CPU until the window is shown" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854030 [13:18] debfx: groovy, tests good [13:29] Riddell: thanks :) [13:32] apachelogger: Probably. [13:32] apachelogger: Neverming [13:33] agateau: Probably. [13:37] magic [13:39] Riddell: hi! just tried to build Konversation on Precise: it failed to find indicate-qt until I installed pkg-config. I guess the package is missing a build-dep on pkg-config. [13:46] * apachelogger rolls eyes [13:46] agateau: couldn't indicate-qt provide a cmake config? [13:48] apachelogger: it could, but it would just use pkg-config... [13:48] why? [13:49] you just need to throw the same info you throw into the pkgconfig file into the cmake config [13:49] agateau: konversation is? bit it just built fine on precise [13:49] apachelogger: a more appropriate fix would be for cmake to actually fail when one says "find_package(PkgConfig REQUIRED)" and pkg-config is not installed [13:49] that too ^^ [13:50] s/bit/but/ [13:51] Riddell: you asked me last week to have a look at why konversation did not build with indicate-qt support [13:51] Riddell: it builds, just without indicate-qt support [13:55] agateau: oh yes, see you have to be slow with me and my concussion [13:56] Riddell: no problem [13:57] Hi, sorry for bothering but I was wondering if there are plans for 4.7.4 updates? [13:59] kio_http: yes, should be in some PPA for testing [14:00] Riddell: many lib*-dev which provide a pkg-config .pc file depends on pkg-config, so maybe the fix should be to add that dependency to libindicate-qt-dev? [14:00] agateau: yes that seems like a good idea [14:00] Riddell: Thanks on a side note Amarok uses high CPU until the window is restored in 4.7.3 will that be fixed with updates [14:01] kio_http: just needs testers, https://launchpad.net/bugs/854030 [14:01] Ubuntu bug 854030 in amarok (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Amarok uses 100% CPU until the window is shown" [Undecided,Fix committed] [14:01] Riddell: I am looking into it then [14:09] agateau, Riddell: technically speaking that is utterly wrong [14:10] they do not depend on it, they do not even recommend it, they might suggest it, but that doesn't help at all [14:10] apachelogger: I don't like it much either, but it seems to be the common way [14:10] bloody workaround(tm) :P [14:11] phonon would need to depend on cmake, qmake and pkgconfig :S [14:11] heh [14:11] so let's fix Konversation build-dep instead [14:11] * agateau does this [14:13] * agateau foresees himself fixing all packages depending on libindicate-qt... [14:18] unlikely, usually some package in the dep tree drags in pkgconfig, which is probably why konvi built earlier [14:18] debfx: we totally should make magic to inject builddeps based on cmake deps ^^ [14:29] Riddell: Konversation vcs-bzr url does not work for me. it starts with "bzr+ssh://bazaar.". If I replace this part with "https://code." it works. Is this correct? [14:29] apachelogger: Could you do the l10n magic and upload l10n for 4.7.4 to the staging PPA? [14:30] don't we usually upload to the updates ppa? [14:30] and for what series? ^^ [14:31] apachelogger: as in control file pre-processing? [14:31] yes [14:31] that's a terrible idea :P [14:31] why? [14:32] agateau: how about bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kubuntu-packagers/konversation ? [14:32] Riddell: mmm, actually the bzr branch is outdated, it still packages Konversation 1.3 :/ [14:32] apachelogger: We upload to staging and then copy to updates [14:32] or bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packagers/konversation [14:33] ScottK: ok, what series? [14:33] apachelogger: oneiric [14:33] Riddell: they are not branches [14:34] Riddell: https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/konversation works but is for 1.3 [14:34] Hey, with the new soprano and the KDE 4.7.3 I started Akonadi and my system didn't immediately become slow. [14:34] agateau: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/konversation works now for me [14:34] and is for 1.3 [14:34] bzr+ssh only works is you have write access to the branch. [14:34] is/if [14:35] (IIRC) [14:35] hmm [14:35] maybe we should use lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/konversation [14:35] * ScottK wonders if he dares fire up kmail now. [14:35] apachelogger: because having control.in is always a mess. e.g. I can guarantee that many times someone will update control instead [14:35] Riddell: it works now :/ [14:35] * agateau is confused [14:36] debfx: why yes, stupid dpkg needs to be fixed to allow macros in builddep [14:37] agateau: code.launchpad.net just forwards to the right URL when used with bzr [14:37] I'm sure one day we'll get executable control files ;) [14:37] bzr+ssh://bazaar. is the right URL for those with write access, http://bazaar. otherwise [14:38] Riddell: so it's weird it didn't work before for me. Did you change something, like giving me write access? [14:38] agateau: no I think it was a glitch in the launchpad [14:38] Riddell: ok :/ [14:38] yofel_: ping [14:38] Riddell: still, shouldn't we expose an url which works for most people rather than only those with write access? [14:39] agateau: that's why we should consider using lp: [14:39] Riddell: ah right [14:41] Riddell: anyway, can you push the 1.4 changes in the branch? [14:41] ok [14:46] agateau: done [14:47] Riddell: thanks [14:48] apachelogger: pong === yofel_ is now known as yofel [14:49] apachelogger: l10n? [14:52] wow nepomuk is still broken, eats 50% cpu for around 5 minutes on a fresh precise installation [14:52] even though indexing is turned off [14:55] yofel: why be there common-natty-archive but common-oneiric? [14:56] huh? [14:56] repos [14:57] didn't ScottK invent -archive for the 4.6.5 SRU? [14:57] I dunno [14:57] Don't think so. [14:57] because common-natty already had the 4.7 backports [14:58] Shouldn't it have just been updates for 4.6.x and backports for 4.7 on natty? [15:00] actually that branch was created by apachelogger [15:00] lol [15:01] but I think your thought there was right [15:01] archive was to deploy stable updates to archive [15:01] whereas the non archive is for ppa [15:01] i.e. for natty that became 4.7 [15:03] * Riddell puts calligra beta 5 into ppa:kubuntu-ppa/beta for oneiric [15:04] apachelogger: isn't this phonon patch upstreamable? http://paste.kde.org/158162/ [15:05] I dont even understand that patch [15:09] it avoid setting an rpath if phonon is installed to a system library dir [15:09] but it needs some changes to work with cmake 2.6 [15:10] phonon sets an rpath if installed to /usr/lib? :O [15:10] yes [15:19] @kvl We could probably get packages to OpenSuse and Arch when we complete it. Ubuntu users will have to use the .gz as I don't know how to get packages in there + I have no idea how .debs work. But that's too much to worry for know. By the time we complete kde 5 will be out and this thing will need re porting. [15:19] Oops wrong channel sorry [15:24] are we willing to test 12.04.x update releases? [15:24] I think it was mostly ScottK who tested 10.04.x update releases [15:24] Yes. [15:25] We should do 5 year LTS since it's exactly no more work for us than 3. [15:25] I'm working on the proposal [15:25] Great. [15:27] debfx: did the 1.5GB DVD image discussion come to a conclusion? === zkriesse_away is now known as zkriesse [15:27] (I don't feel well enough to be part of heavey discussions yet) [15:31] agateau: could I put you down as my backup "will be responsive to canonical support requets" person? [15:31] just incase I get hit by a bus (or French car) [15:32] Riddell: sure, to the limits of my knowledge [15:32] Riddell: not that I will be on vacation soon though [15:32] * agateau is a lazy french guy [15:33] Riddell: well none of the kubuntu devs really participated in the firefox discussion. the question is if firefox is good enough for us even without the kde integration. [15:34] though it might be worth shrinking the dvd even if we stick with rekonq [15:34] i guess it's all about priorities: "well integrated" vs "works with almost all websites" [15:34] * agateau uses firefox [15:36] debfx: I think "without KDE integration" is a very different question. That wasn't clear (at least to me) during the discussion. [15:36] Did anyone do the analysis to see how much more room it would take? [15:36] ScottK: it wasn't clear to me either [15:38] * maco uses chromium mostly and firefox a little [15:38] (chromium's faster, but my company's software theoretically doesn't support it) [15:39] BTW, I'm not uploading 4.7.4 to precise on the assumption the the 4.8 beta will go in before we're ready to put 4.7.4 in oneiric-proposed [15:39] ScottK: I think about 18MB [15:40] I think there's a good chance we could get that even on the CD. [15:42] how? the cd is already oversized without any language pack [15:42] the lack of supported language is imho another big problem of our cd image [15:47] FYI Firefox has experimental QT builds that work better than rekonq in my opinion. They plan to be considered stable in a year [15:51] kio_http: do you have any url for that plan? [15:51] agateau: Let me check I remember reading it somewhere [15:52] agateau: But the is was not a 100% confirmed thing [15:53] agateau: Sorry can't find it ... the discussion was about making it for MeeGo mostly [16:05] kio_http: We've got FF with KDE support patches now, but with FF new rapid release model, the patches aren't supportable anymore. [16:06] ScottK: You could also do things like Windows does in Europe .. a browser choice screen with a pros and cons of each that the user selects. (if someone is using a browser he/she most likely has an internet connection) [16:12] Riddell: pushed a new version of Konversation on lp:~kubuntu-packagers/(...) can you upload it? [16:17] On the DVD/USB/CD image debate, how would we be providing a "Kubuntu Essentials CD" and a supported, default USB/DVD image? so CD for the legacy/quick installs and DVD/USB for the whole experience - which would be default? [16:18] jussi: in that scenario I imagine a KDE pure CD for the KDE purists like me and an expanded DVD/USB image with libreoffice and firefox [16:20] Riddell: that would make sense to me. [16:20] is kde small enough for that? [16:21] agateau: done [16:21] Riddell: thanks! [16:21] jussi: well it would be smaller than what we have at the moment which includes libreoffice [16:22] ok. [16:26] so without kde patches the firefox open/save dialogs are crap [16:26] other than that I don't see a difference [16:27] if only chromium was in main ... [16:30] debfx: lack KDE notification integration (when download complete) [16:30] agateau: is Global Menu upstream in Qt or still in progress? [16:30] Riddell: the patch is in 4.8 [16:31] Riddell: it is only the part which makes it possible to replace the menubar implementation with a plugin, [16:31] Riddell: the code for the plugin itself remains on launchpad [16:31] agateau: and what is the name of your KDE Notify-OSD Supporter? [16:31] Riddell: colibri? [16:32] that's the one [16:33] Riddell: hm right, but how does the download notification work on ubuntu? [16:39] debfx: that I don't know [17:14] how's this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal [17:21] kde svn 1266985 [17:21] http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/?rev=1266985&view=rev | svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/trunk -r 1266985 [17:22] ubottu: hello! [17:22] Sorry, I don't know anything about hello! [17:22] ubottu: not the fastest today, hu? [17:22] apachelogger: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [17:36] Riddell: You might not want to highlight libmsn as an example of a successful update since we're in the middle of a second SRU to fix the first one. [17:39] Riddell: I fixed one left over Edubuntu that shouldn't have been there. Other than maybe a different example than libmsn, I think it's good. [19:05] debfx: Turns out it's easy to save gobs of space (see kubuntu-devel ML) [19:07] ScottK: replacing applications with smaller, inferior ones is of course always possible. however that doesn't mean it's a good choice. [19:07] debfx: I guess I left the smiley off my comment ... [19:08] I agree with you. [19:08] ah right :) [19:08] sorry [19:09] this Luca Tringali really needs to start using a proper MUA [19:09] >>> apt-cache show kate | grep Size [19:09] Installed-Size: 2972 [19:10] that kate size does nto replicate here [19:10] and kfi is like 3kb or something :S [19:10] switching to calligra would start a catfight with upstream [19:10] also FWIW [19:10] uncompressed data is next to useless [19:11] as the cd images are lzma'd [19:11] it's gzipped afaik but yeah [19:11] not live [19:11] it's lzma [19:11] the entire squasfs [19:12] at least it still was when I was investigating compression techniques 2 years ago [19:12] (I doubt they'd regress from lzma to gzip for ubuntu and survive without throwing half the python stuff off the image :P) [19:13] I do agree with Glenn on the need of a cleanup [19:13] * apachelogger thinks we have too much rubbish on the CD really [19:13] and running by default [19:13] but I am a blackbox lover [19:15] apachelogger: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-foundations-n-squashfs-lzma-redux [19:16] so I don't think lzma is used atm [19:17] The kernel now has LZMA support. We need to check to see if squashfs-lzma makes rsync cry. [19:17] rsync?! [19:17] Oo [19:17] this does not even make sense :O [19:20] I don't think there are many applications that we can get rid of except ktorrent [19:21] depends on why you want to remove them [19:22] The reason ktorrent is there is because torrent is one of our distribution methods. [19:22] No ktorrent and then fewer torrent download and more direct downloads in the future. [19:22] drop ktorrent, include kget [19:22] ktorrent does not suite the distribution use case as it is way too complicated [19:23] ScottK: FWIW, I do not think there are that many users of torrents for kubuntu downloads [19:24] the download mirrors are pretty fast and reliable [19:24] Dunno. I know there are a lot of seeds people put it. [19:24] it/up [19:25] well, there certainly are some :P [19:25] anywho [19:25] hm kget is bigger than ktorrent [19:26] I do not think this use case is any reason to put software on the CD [19:26] debfx: also more usable [19:26] kget also messes up normal KDE download methods [19:26] Riddell: we can fiddle with that [19:26] * ScottK agrees with Riddell [19:26] point being [19:26] I'd just get rid of ktorrent and not replace it with anything [19:26] Kget should get itself gone. [19:26] ktorrent is so insanely ugly it makes me wanna throw up regularly [19:27] also completely random icon and default UI [19:27] I have seen people who know what torrents were struggle with this app [19:27] debfx: ack [19:27] * apachelogger doesnt see use for torrent client by default [19:27] particularly since it takes like 5 seconds to get one installed [19:27] Providing it in the default install gives thousands of young Kubuntu users an excuse why the have torrent apps installed when asked by their parents, schools, law enforcement, etc. [19:28] and from what I have seen people tend to be very opinionated about which torrent client to use ^^ [19:28] Much like web browsers. [19:28] yep [19:28] or IDEs for that matter [19:29] the difference is that we need to ship a browser [19:39] would qbittorrent be a better suited replacement ? it does have a nice gui than ktorrent. or transmission-qt, but it does not really integrate with kde style apps [19:41] well I don't think we need a torrent client [19:43] fair enough, if anyone needs one they can apt-get install one or search with synaptic or muon... ok, muon can't really search much atm. [19:45] muon can't search? [19:46] ah, crashes [19:48] sometimes it finds stuff , sometimes it does not, try searching for "polkit" in muon, then try it with synaptic [19:49] searching for polkit works in Muon Package Manager [19:49] but not with the software center [19:50] well no, polkit isn't user faced software [19:50] and actually it does return "muon" itself since it's in that description :) [19:51] dropping rekonq, ktorrent and amarok would be ~enough space for firefox [19:52] or we drop LO from the cd [20:12] Riddell: kubuntu-docs contains many translations that are very incomplete [20:13] debfx, not many people translate kubuntu-docs, there are only 2 of us that write them, no idea how many people actually translate them [20:15] jjesse: I guess we need some statistics how many strings each translation covers so we can only include the ones that reach a certain percentage. [20:16] would that help get more translations? IE I noticed my install only had the English Kubuntu-Docs instead of localized to my language [20:17] of course not, but it would help conserving space and not shipping incomplete translations [20:18] bummer [20:18] yay for saving space though [20:26] debfx: kubuntu-docs 1.10ubuntu2 is 6.8 MiB vs 11.10ubuntu1 without translations at 2.7 MiB [20:26] kubuntu with firefox in place of amarok would be doubly disappointing for me [20:28] Riddell: We need a supportable plan for a Qt webkit based browser or go back to Konqueror then. The lack of upstream security support for QT webkit will make it a pretty tough sell. [20:28] 1/2 an hour until tech board meeting [20:29] I'd like to see the work get done we described for last cycle so we can get rid of the alternate CD. That much less QA to do each time. [20:29] ScottK: qt webkit is hard to get away from, much of KDE uses it, see apt-cache rdepends libqtwebkit4 [20:29] ScottK: how is konqueror any better khtml5 is totally unsupported from a security standpoint [20:30] Riddell: True, but for most of those applications it's local content, so the risk is different. [20:30] Riddell: there is a difference between using qtwebkit in a browser and for example viewing wikipedia in amarok [20:30] micahg: I know there have been some khtml updates, I don't know how comprehensive they are. [20:31] ScottK: that also bring us back to having to update qt4-x11 when there are khtml5 CVEs if there are any specific to it [20:31] which is why we broke out the qtwebkit source in the first place to avoid that [20:31] micahg: khtml is in kde4libs. [20:31] orly> [20:31] Yeah. [20:31] ok [20:32] We broke it out because upstream did because they wanted Qt webkit to be able to follow a faster release cycle. [20:32] ScottK: that's not much better with all its rdepends :) [20:33] Nope, but it takes a lot less time to build [20:35] ScottK: I'd rather get rid of the alternate part of the dvd instead of the alternate cd [20:35] debfx: OK. [20:36] I mostly want less testing to do. [20:37] If the live installer can do everything the alternate can do, then we should dump it. [20:43] I hope you're not seriously considering konqueror as the default browser :/ [20:53] No, just short on options. [20:54] What I think we should really ship as the default is a very minimal browser that's enough for basic web browsing, but should be relatively stable/secure and then make it really easy for people to install what they want. [20:55] As it is, I don't think any browser we're considering is really suitable for install media that's supposed to be used 5 years from now. [20:59] there is exactly one browser in main that is stable, secure and supported for the whole LTS cycle [21:20] debfx: that firefox takes a full time canonical employee too look after it is typical of why I don't think it's a good answer for free software longer term never mind KDE. but that's a separate point [21:34] Riddell: I think it would take a similar level of effort for Qt webkit + browser to properly support a KDE solution. [21:45] right, also webkit gtk will be taking up a significant portion of my time as well as we get further into the LTS [21:46] and that will hopefully be with some help from others [21:54] I don't think we have a choice if we want to ship a browser that is safe to use in 5 years so if no one objects I'll drop rekonq and ktorrent from the cd and add firefox to see how much oversized the image is. [21:57] debfx: eek I object! [21:57] well it can be done for a day or so to check for CD size but any formal change should be done after a kubuntu-council decision [22:00] Riddell: I have yet to hear a viable alternative and I also haven't seen much input from kubuntu-council members [22:01] debfx: rekonq is a viable alternative, I'm talking to upstream now about what they can do security wise [22:01] debfx: I object to doing it before the KC has a chance to agree. [22:02] Riddell: It's not just rekonq, it's Qt webkit. Are they talking to their upstream? [22:02] yes [22:02] Riddell: How about if debfx makes the change for one daily and then reverts it so we can get some data on actual size differences? [22:03] ScottK: that's fine [22:03] debfx: How about that? [22:03] qtwebkit tends to do security updates in svn which are released as part of point releases and work with previous versions of Qt [22:04] So does that mean we need to move qtwebkit to the rolling release model? I think it affects too much stuff. [22:06] ScottK: dunno I'll get a fuller answer tomorrow I hope [22:07] yeah that's fine [22:07] Riddell: qtwebkit is maintained in this branch: https://gitorious.org/+qtwebkit-developers/webkit/qtwebkit/commits/qtwebkit-2.2 [22:12] 2.0 certainly doesn't get security support anymore: https://gitorious.org/+qtwebkit-developers/webkit/qtwebkit/commits/qtwebkit-2.0 [22:16] yeah they only maintain trunk [22:20] that is a problem [22:26] ok so in order to support rekonq it would need an embedded copy of the latest qtwebkit and a SRU exception for both similar to firefox and chromium? [22:27] and the hope that both will continue to make releases that are compatible with each other and don't require e.g. Qt5 [22:31] * debfx also notes that qtwebkit hasn't been the most reliable upstream so far [22:32] with qtwebkit 2.1 only supporting symbian and the standalone release still not working properly === zkriesse is now known as zkriesse_away [22:37] If they won't even promise to support us, then that makes it a lot easier. === zkriesse_away is now known as zkriesse