[08:08] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:23] <AlanBell> morning
[08:23] <czajkowski> AlanBell: hows you
[08:32] <AlanBell> kids left for school, silence achieved
[08:33] <christel> good morning
[08:34] <AlanBell> morning, we will have to reschedule the farnham pub crawl
[08:37] <christel> we will!
[08:37] <christel> how long is gordon down for? and will he be popping by before heading back to scotland?
[08:41] <AlanBell> think he is going back today, he wasn't sure if he could escape from London
[08:54] <knightwise> hey guys
[08:54] <knightwise> how are you today
[08:55] <popey> morning
[08:56] <knightwise> hey popey :)
[08:57] <MooDoo> hay all
[08:57] <christel> AlanBell: aha!
[08:57] <christel> well, i am still up for pubcrawling sometime
[08:57] <christel> maybe we can drag some other people over here if we plan it slightly further in advance
[08:58] <christel> how about sometime between christmas and new years, when we're all sick of spending time with family ;)
[09:01] <MooDoo> sick of family?  at christmas?  Are you mad christel ? ;) lol
[09:01] <christel> :P
[09:02] <christel> we're spending christmas proper with the in-laws, who are lovely, but they're also very .. er, uhm.. they're very Prim and Proper
[09:02] <AlanBell> 25th?
[09:02] <christel> AlanBell: haha <3
[09:03]  * czajkowski hugs christel 
[09:03]  * AlanBell wonders when czajkowski returns from the emerald city?
[09:04] <czajkowski> 27th
[09:04] <czajkowski> then am heading down south on the 30-31st
[09:05] <christel> czajkowski: well then how do you feel about a farnham pubcrawl on the 28th then? you may have your old room if you fancy staying over
[09:06] <MooDoo> wow how come the uk meeting is so early?
[09:06] <AlanBell> MooDoo: to inject a little variety into your life
[09:06] <christel> MooDoo: to confuse you! nah, i think the idea is to see if we can attract more people in the middle of the day as few people are able to make the evening ones
[09:06] <czajkowski> christel: oh maybe. Not sure what the plans are given house move beore xmas and coming back to boxes.
[09:06] <MooDoo> spicey
[09:09] <DJones> Morning
[09:09] <christel> morning DJones :)
[09:09] <DJones> Hi christel
[09:09] <christel> MooDoo: where in the world are you? are you Too Far Away to join us for Christmas tomfoolery?
[09:12] <AlanBell> so where is the next point on the happy hour tour?
[09:12] <AlanBell> Southampton? Newcastle? somewhere else?
[09:13] <MooDoo> christel: i'm in nottingham, but i have a 3 months old, wifey would string me up if i came down between christmas and new year :D
[09:13] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:13] <AlanBell> Wolverhampton?
[09:16] <bigcalm> AlanBell: if you're coming up, sounds like a good idea :)
[09:17] <AlanBell> me? north of Watford Gap?
[09:18] <bigcalm> Is that the mark of a true southener?
[09:20] <bigcalm> It still throws me when a friend in Brighton calls me a northener
[09:20] <bigcalm> It's one or the other eh? No midlandser?
[09:21] <AlanBell> sounds fair :)
[09:21] <AlanBell> anyhow, do you want to pick a day in January and a pub and we can add wolves to the list of places?
[09:23] <bigcalm> I know nothing of Wolves. davmor2, mrevell, aquarius are the people to ask :)
[09:27]  * TheOpenSourcerer is going to Stourbridge tomorrow. ~250m round trip.
[09:35] <MartijnVdS> only 250 meters? I'd walk ;)
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> I wish MartijnVdS
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> Likely to be ~3hrs each way
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> Or more likely 2 hrs there and 4hrs back (friday evening) :-(
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> ugh.. >2 hours of driving on a single day makes me all weird
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> sort of sleepy/exhausted but with the alertness of adrenalin in the mix.
[09:38] <bigcalm> Helps to stop now and then
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: note that I'm ~1.5 hours away from either Germany or Belgium -- it's hard to drive >2 hours and not end up in another country
[09:41] <bigcalm> Hehe
[09:41] <bigcalm> Tricky
[09:42] <MartijnVdS> FOSDEM will be a 2 hour drive
[09:43] <mattt> i gave up complaining about driving, my colleagues in texas can drive 4-6 hours and still be in texas :)
[09:44] <MartijnVdS> Aww
[09:44] <MartijnVdS> imagine driving for 6 hours and STILL being in Texas
[09:45] <AlanBell> I used to have a car like that
[09:45] <bigcalm> Heh
[09:46] <gord> back in dallas, i remember we drove for about two hours to a friends house, we were *still* in dallas
[09:47] <oimon> in london i can drive for 2 hours and be 8 miles down the road
[09:47] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Speed devil!
[09:47] <oimon> 84 sets of traffic lights later...
[09:49] <JamesTait> Oh, um, good morning all. :)
[09:49] <mattt> gord: shoulda flied!
[09:54] <monsterwizard> Asm86 D:
[10:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> 4mth web dev contract position up for grabs if anyone interested: http://www.paramountdigitalmarketing.com/job-opportunity.html
[10:16] <davmor2> morning all
[10:16] <davmor2> czajkowski: PROD!!!!! well I'm getting in the Christmas spirit of giving :D
[10:18] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[10:19] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[10:19] <bigcalm> What else can you give?
[10:21] <davmor2> bigcalm, gord: confirmation of the 26th of jan for the next workspace day :)
[10:21] <gord> whoop
[10:21] <bigcalm> Ta
[10:24] <davmor2> bigcalm: see I just give and give and give until it hurts ;)
[10:25] <bigcalm> o.O
[10:26] <gord> maybe you shouldn't give that much then
[10:42] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:45] <popey> hi
[10:45] <dogmatic69> o/
[10:46] <brobostigon> hi popey and dogmatic69
[10:47] <davmor2> gord: to be honest it only hurts my finger from prodding czajkowski
[10:56] <andylockran> popey: my spotify is dead :(
[10:58] <czajkowski> davmor2: Good morning
[10:59]  * popey points andylockran at #spotify
[11:00] <MooDoo> czajkowski: davmor2 morning sir, ma'am :)
[11:00] <davmor2> czajkowski: Morning how's life down souff
[11:00] <czajkowski> MooDoo: well hello there
[11:00] <czajkowski> davmor2: Fantastic
[11:00] <davmor2> MooDoo: Morning me owld Mucka how's life up and right a bit?
[11:01] <andylockran> popey: ta :D
[11:02] <MooDoo> davmor2: i've a grin on my face that's a mile wide
[11:10] <Gargoyle> Morning all!
[11:11] <Gargoyle> Can anyone confirm the correct way to get apache to create files (uploaded via site / cache files created by php, etc) to have -rw-rw--- and not -rw------- ? I have tried setting umask 0002 in /etc/apache/envvars
[11:17] <dogmatic69> Gargoyle: -rw------ should work fine
[11:18] <Gargoyle> dogmatic69: Not if I want the group to read and write the files!
[11:18] <davmor2> MooDoo: Put czajkowski down you don't know where she's been
[11:22] <MooDoo> davmor2: i should be so lucky ;)
[11:23] <davmor2> MooDoo: So let me guess you're on holiday or you got a new job ;)
[11:25] <MooDoo> davmor2: nope, parents are getting me a new camera for christmas
[11:26] <davmor2> MooDoo: Man I thought it was something life changing ;)
[11:27] <MooDoo> davmor2: it is, believe me :)
[11:27] <dogmatic69> Gargoyle: its its chowned to apache who else needs to read it?
[11:28] <Gargoyle> dogmatic69: The user that is running cron / backup tasks
[11:29] <dogmatic69> !tell Gargoyle about php chmod
[11:29] <davmor2> MooDoo: hence the smiley wink :D  /me waits for the joker in the family to wrap one of those throw away cameras in the camera box with a note saying it did so much we thought you'd prefer this instead
[11:30] <dogmatic69> wrong channel for tells :/
[11:30] <dogmatic69> d
 MooDoo:
[11:30] <dogmatic69> http://php.net/manual/en/function.chmod.php
[11:30] <dogmatic69> Gargoyle: ^
[11:31] <Gargoyle> dogmatic69: I am aware of chmod, I want this to be the default for apache and not going round changing every bit of PHP code that writes files
[11:31] <MooDoo> davmor2: yeah :D lol
[11:31] <dogmatic69> Gargoyle: you should really only have one bit of code writing files, DRY
[11:32] <Gargoyle> dogmatic69: You're under some illusion that I only have 1 application?
[11:32] <dogmatic69> i am under the impression that your code is not DRY
[11:33] <Gargoyle> dogmatic69: I didn't ask about coding standards! and most of it is not my code framework this and framework that!
[11:36] <monsterwizard> anyone know assembly?
[11:37] <monsterwizard> I can't figure out why mov esi, 0 is used in this program
[12:07] <oimon> anyone how how to boot a mac mini from usb stick?
[12:09] <andylockran> oimon: hold down cmd+alt during boot I think
[12:09] <andylockran> or cmd+c
[12:09] <andylockran> something like that
[12:09] <popey> i didnt think macs booted off usb
[12:09] <andylockran> then you get a choice of which disks to boot from
[12:09] <popey> unless the usb contained osx or other efi compliant thing
[12:09] <popey> andylockran: its alt
[12:09] <oimon> how do i install lion ? i have to boot to OSX?
[12:09] <popey> yeah, hold down alt
[12:09] <andylockran> oimon: it's just an 'app' from the app store
[12:09] <oimon> agh only 2 usb slots
[12:09] <oimon> i have it on usb
[12:10] <popey> andylockran: you can make a recovery image too on usb
[12:10] <andylockran> popey: ah, I did a boot from usb for time machine I think..
[12:11] <oimon> "youn cannot install lion because it is not supported on this system"
[12:11] <oimon> no reason why
[12:13] <oimon> discovered this machine is a powerpc :(
[12:13] <oimon> had it in my room 3years, never switched it on
[12:15] <directhex> pretty old mac, then
[12:15] <oimon> i guess
[12:16] <directhex> intel ones landed in 2006
[12:16]  * brobostigon would grab a debian powerpc cd.
[12:16] <oimon> guess i'll turn it off again
[12:16] <directhex> lion also needs 2GB RAM
[12:16] <directhex> had to do a ram upgrade on a mac mini yesterday for lion. yikes
[12:16] <oimon> i only needed to try some software out :(
[12:19] <oimon> everyone's complaining aabout lion being really buggy
[12:19] <popey> "everyone"
[12:20] <andylockran> I quite like it
[12:20] <popey> is that the same "everyone" who no longer use Ubuntu?
[12:20] <andylockran> not had any issues
[12:21] <deej1976> Has the 12pm ubuntu-uk-meeting been cancelled ?
[12:21] <oimon> everyone in my building who has lion
[12:21] <oimon> in the context of my job, that's everyone
[12:21] <oimon> wifi issues, printing fail, and networking issues
[12:22] <andylockran> the only issue I've had, is that I sometimes get wifi timeouts
[12:23] <andylockran> but that's sporadically, and a reboot (~20 seconds) sorts that out
[12:23] <andylockran> SSD FTW
[12:23] <oimon> can't connect to certain wifi SSID, cannot even see another one, while under the AP
[12:23] <oimon> other people having disconnect issues, and also one guy claims it takes 30 mins to connect
[13:07] <deej1976> Anyone seen AlanBell this morning?
[13:07] <AlanBell> I saw him somewhere
[13:07] <brobostigon> lol
[13:07] <deej1976> AlanBell: Not in ubuntu-uk-meeting though
[13:08] <bigcalm> :)
[13:08] <AlanBell> ooooh crap
[13:08] <davmor2> deej1976: I'm pretty sure I've seen his nick around today
[13:08] <bigcalm> AlanBell: I forgot as well
[13:08] <deej1976> !language | AlanBell
[13:08] <deej1976> :D
[13:08]  * Mez sighs
[13:09] <AlanBell> ok, lets do the meeting
[13:09] <Mez> have to create a backport to intrepid/jaunty
[13:09] <AlanBell> in #ubuntu-uk-meeting right nowish
[13:11] <gord> wish humble bundle just ran their own ppa
[13:11] <gord> or something
[13:14] <gord> geez, even the deb files bundle their own libraries, had to remove the sdl library they bundle because it doesn't work with pulseaudio...
[13:17] <AlanBell> dutchie: when do you return to the dreaming spires?
[13:31] <BigRedS> If I've an md array rebuilding, is there a way to ask it which device is being readded?
[13:33] <bigcalm> Everybody is going unicode crazy
[14:12] <danfish> my receptionists have Michael Buble Xmas album blaring out
[14:13]  * danfish tasers receptionists
[14:13] <MooDoo> danfish: bought it for the misses the other day :S
[14:13] <danfish> MooDoo: get earplugs or a vomit bag
[14:14] <MooDoo> both
[14:14] <brobostigon> atleast wizzard, is decent, that one dont bother me too much.
[14:16] <MooDoo> hammer fall :D
[14:23] <oimon> http://images.businessweek.com/cms/2011-11-30/etc_correlation50__01__960.jpg
[14:23] <oimon> :D
[14:43] <s-fox> Hello.
[14:48] <dutchie> AlanBell: 8th of Jan
[14:48] <dutchie> AlanBell: why>
[14:48] <dutchie> ?
[14:49] <AlanBell> possible oxford happy hour
[14:53] <dutchie> ah cool
[14:57] <andylockran> :D
[15:48] <danfish> IT'S CHRISTMAS!
[15:48] <danfish> sorry - Noddy Holder took over my nick for a minute
[15:51] <davmor2> danfish: liar
[15:53] <bigcalm> I wonder if he's living off of the royalties
[15:53] <danfish> davmor2: he's from your neck of the woods isn't he?
[15:54] <moreati> I believe his $appendage imprint is on the Broadstreet walk of fame
[15:54] <jutnux> \o everybody
[15:58] <davmor2> danfish: No he ai't He's from duggley
[16:14] <danfish> davmor2: The black coutreeeyyyy
[17:25] <BigRedS> I'm after an explanation of the Gnome3/gnome-session/unity architecture, anyone know of one? It's as a citation for "Gnome3 isn't broken by Untiy"
[17:25] <BigRedS> where, apparently "just install gnome-session" doesn't count
[17:26] <ali1234> nobody ever said it was
[17:28] <BigRedS> No, I'm arguing that Unity is basically an alternative to gnome-session, sat atop gnome3. Which is how I was lead to believe it worked.
[17:28] <BigRedS> In fact, is that how it works?
[17:28] <ali1234> it is in oneiric
[17:29] <BigRedS> yeah, that's the one I meant
[17:29] <ali1234> see, part of the gigantic mess that was the unity release was that in natty, unity ran on top of gnome 2
[17:29] <ali1234> and so installing gnome 3 on natty broke unity
[17:29] <ali1234> under oneiric, it is the other way around
[17:29] <ali1234> so installing gnome 2 on oneiric is problematic
[17:30] <BigRedS> Oh. no, I'm ignorning gnome2
[17:30] <ali1234> another side effect of this is that you can't install the unity from oneiric onto natty
[17:30] <ali1234> and the development model of unity makes backporting patches extremely difficult
[17:31] <BigRedS> Just that what's normally termed 'Gnome3' is actually Gnome3 running gnome-session, and Unity is Gnome 3 running Unity
[17:31] <ali1234> so the end result is that natty doesn't get unity fixes
[17:31] <ali1234> unity is unity running on whatever version of gtk the distro uses
[17:32] <davmor2> BigRedS: So gnome is made up of gdm, gnome shell, and the gnome apps.  Ubuntu is made up of lightdm, unity and the gnome apps  there are a few changes but on the whole that is it.
[17:33] <BigRedS> yeah, that's my understanding. I'm just trying to convince someone else, but he's got bored of the argument now. It's more the precise definition of 'gnome3' that we're arguing over I think
[17:34] <ali1234> it's a pointless argument anyway, as they both suck
[17:35] <ali1234> it's like saying "well if you don't like brussel sprout flavour ice cream you can just have cabbage flavour ice cream instead"
[17:36] <davmor2> BigRedS: so my description is about as basic as you can get but there are a load of other things that make up gnome 3
[17:37] <davmor2> BigRedS: We use most of them apart from gnome shell and gdm by all accounts
[17:37] <ali1234> gnome-shell is multiple different things
[17:38] <ali1234> the whole "but you can just install gnome-shell on ubuntu" is the argument people usually use when someone says they are dumping ubuntu because of unity
[17:38] <ali1234> and it's a stupid one
[17:39] <ali1234> here's why
[17:39] <BigRedS> no, it's not at all about dumping unity or gnome3
[17:39] <BigRedS> just how the thing works
[17:39] <ali1234> in a nutshell, you get a better experience if you use the same shell as the people developing the distro
[17:40] <ali1234> it's always been like that too
[17:40] <BigRedS> yeah, it's always the case that the distro is designed for its default
[17:40] <BigRedS> it'd be daft to not do that
[17:43] <popey> mmmm brussel sprout ice cream
[17:43] <popey> http://drool.popey.com/
[17:44] <Darael> How many of those d'you /have/ at the moment, anyway, popey?
[17:46] <danfish> popey: egg and bacon icecream yes, snail porridge yes, but brussel sprout ice cream...just think of the kids
[17:46] <MartijnVdS> Marmite ice cream?
[17:47]  * brobostigon requests whisky sorbet.
[17:47] <Darael> I know they make garlic ice cream.
[17:51] <danfish> oooh, nice http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/raspberry-pi-announces-the-gertboard-expansion-board-20111215/
[18:08] <locodir-user> hello
[18:08] <locodir-user> I have a problem installing ubuntu
[18:09] <locodir-user> it says "no root fie system is defined"
[18:09] <locodir-user> how can I install it?
[19:08] <daubers> evenng
[19:09] <mgdm>  Hi daubers
[19:11] <bigcalm> Yo ho ho
[19:11] <bigcalm> mgdm: marvel at my painful code :) https://github.com/bigcalm/Twitter-IRC-Gateway
[19:13] <mgdm> Hmmm, I can spot some probable E_NOTICEs...
[19:15] <mattt> bigcalm: TYPO!@
[19:15] <mattt> "leave <#channe>"
[19:15] <bigcalm> :O
[19:19] <MH0> bigcalm: A typo? Not as bad as some code i have written :3, Some code I write has the most ugliest code, long-way rounds and everything. Ugly coding ftw!
[19:21] <davmor2> Yeah but MH0 bigcalm is a wannabe perfectionist, it's like a crime to him :D
[19:22] <MH0> Well, then I suppose so :)
[19:24] <davmor2> comedy gold http://twitpic.com/7tm701
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> heh
[19:52]  * daubers sticks on generations
[20:06] <Laney> right
[20:06] <czajkowski> evening folks
[20:06] <Laney> present inspiration...
[20:06] <daubers> Laney: You can get me a kindle, that'll be fine :)
[20:07] <Laney> SOLD!
[20:17] <daubers> \o/
[22:01] <BigRedS> What's the current favourite for a really easy mailing list tool to plug in to postfix? Mailman? I'd like it running in about 20mins :)
[22:04] <gordonjcp> mailman *is* pretty easy
[22:04] <gordonjcp> horrible, but easy
[22:06] <jacobw> phplist
[22:08] <jacobw> oh
[22:08] <jacobw> for actual mailing lists?
[22:08] <jacobw> mailman :p
[22:44] <BigRedS> ah, whoops, got distracted
[22:44] <BigRedS> but mailman it is
[22:44] <BigRedS> That was my initial choice, then I realised I didn't know any others
[22:46] <mattt> the only thing is
[22:46] <mattt> mailman only takes about 2 mins to get going
[22:46] <mattt> at least, it does on RHEL
[22:50] <BigRedS> Ah yeah, iffy bit here might be my bodged virtual domain 'system'
[22:52] <BigRedS> Oh. That *was* easy
[22:52] <BigRedS> just stick the domain on the end of mydestination and it ignores the virtuals
[22:56] <mattt> yay
[23:02] <popey> yay, amy and rory are leaving dr who
[23:06] <czajkowski> whooooo best news today popey
[23:06]  * czajkowski hugs popey 
[23:06] <popey> hmm?
[23:07] <labcoattech> hi all
[23:09] <popey> hello
[23:10] <labcoattech> can the grub bootloader be replaced with a gui
[23:11] <popey> no idea
[23:20] <BigRedS> I've seen someone demo a gui bootloader. where gui=clicky with a mouse
[23:20] <BigRedS> I'd argue that grub already is a gui
[23:20] <BigRedS> (when it's working)
[23:23] <labcoattech> tried to edit grub using Startup-Manager to make Windows 7 the default os but it didn't work
[23:30] <AlanBell> labcoattech: you might want to expand on what you did, and/or ask in #ubuntu, it is probably a bit late for the UK
[23:34] <directhex> labcoattech: i'm not aware of any modern mouse-enabled bootloaders
[23:45] <shauno> I've got a modern, mouse-enabled bootloader ;)
[23:46] <bigcalm> Boot camp?
[23:46] <shauno> yeah
[23:46] <bigcalm> Lucky guess
[23:46] <bigcalm> Sleep!
[23:46] <shauno> it's a little too modern in places.  like deciding that usb is "legacy".  but it's pointy/clicky/droolproof
[23:48] <directhex> i've never used boot camp - just refit
[23:49] <shauno> they're pretty much the same thing.  just different applications loaded on top of the same efi
[23:49] <shauno> just refit has a config file, whereas the stock has "my way or the highway"
[23:50] <shauno> but it doesn't actually add capability, because actual features depend on the efi itself.  so trying to boot mbr off usb is still near-on impossible :(