[14:28] <cyphermox> ScottL: I saw your comment on bug 901945; what changes are being done to networking?
[14:39] <astraljava> cyphermox: The OP speaks about the icon not even showing, which is understandable, as no NetworkManager is installed in precise, yet. Thus, no nm-applet.
[14:39] <cyphermox> why would there be no NM installed?
[14:39] <astraljava> cyphermox: However, Xubuntu does install it, and I believe scott-work | ScottL meant that we might include it in the future.
[14:40] <cyphermox> ok
[14:40] <astraljava> cyphermox: In the past people thought it hindered the real-time capability.
[14:40] <cyphermox> oh, right, it wasn't in the seed or something
[14:40] <astraljava> cyphermox: I think it needs to be tested whether it still does.
[14:40] <cyphermox> now I remember and get it, sorry, I got confused :)
[14:40] <astraljava> np
[14:40] <cyphermox> astraljava: thanks
[14:40] <astraljava> You're welcome.
[14:41] <cyphermox> astraljava: I maintain NM in Ubuntu, let me know if it happens to be an issue for real-time, and if you have ideas on how to fix it, I'll be happy to help out
[14:41] <astraljava> cyphermox: I don't know whether it's still an issue, but I do understand the fundamental problem.
[14:41] <cyphermox> ok
[14:42] <astraljava> cyphermox: network-manager-gnome didn't poll wireless networks periodically, thus it was chosen.
[14:43] <astraljava> cyphermox: NM does, however. Whether that remains an issue performance-wise with the processing power having risen dramatically over the past couple of years, that's another thing altogether.
[14:44] <astraljava> Personally, I'm from the school of thought that you shouldn't have networking enabled if you're doing something mission-critical, but of course, there are workflows where you _need_ network for some operations.
[14:45] <cyphermox> right
[14:45] <scott-work> astraljava: cyphermox , hi
[14:46] <cyphermox> but then wifi might not be the best choice
[14:46] <scott-work> astraljava: so what is different from what we shipped in oneiric?
[14:46]  * scott-work is looking at seeds now
[14:46] <cyphermox> and you can work around some of the issues by setting it up manually, which can let you avoid scanning (wpasupplicant settings)
[14:48] <scott-work> astraljava: oh, is this an issue derived from the transition to xfce?  meaning we had nm-applet in the gnome panel before and don't have an the applet in the panel under xfce currently?
[14:48] <scott-work> if so, then i AM fixing this currently :-D
[14:49] <astraljava> scott-work: Nothing yet. But if we wanna streamline our seeds with Xubuntu's, then I suppose we should test how NM fares in actual workflow.
[14:49] <scott-work> astraljava: i thought we were already shipping network manager with nmapplet during natty, plus onieric (which began the transition and might be "broken" too)
[14:50] <astraljava> scott-work: We [a|we]re shipping network-manager-gnome, not the one that provides NetworkManager (and thus nm-applet).
[14:50] <astraljava> scott-work: Hmm?
[14:50] <scott-work> AH
[14:50] <scott-work> yes, you are right
[14:50] <scott-work> but we moved to network manager i thought
[14:50] <scott-work> shit
[14:50] <scott-work> nevermind, it was gnome-network-admin or similar that we were shipping
[14:51] <astraljava> Sorry, I am confused.
[14:51] <astraljava> It's actually the other way around.
[14:51] <astraljava> And then it's a bug if nm-applet isn't shown.
[14:53] <scott-work> okay, in maverick we shipped gnome-network-admin:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.maverick/view/head:/desktop
[14:53] <scott-work> in natty we moved to network-manager-gnome:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty/view/head:/desktop
[14:53] <scott-work> this was because -network-admin sucked for people using wireless (presumably on laptops)
[14:54] <astraljava> I think it wasn't wireless, but rather the PPPoE connections (or something like that).
[14:54] <scott-work> astraljava: are you saying that  network-manager-gnome does NOT pull in nmapplet?
[14:54] <astraljava> scott-work: No. It does. I was wrong.
[14:54]  * astraljava hangs head in shame
[14:54] <scott-work> lol
[14:55] <scott-work> so for natty they were both there and probably shows up in the indicator applet/plugin
[14:55] <scott-work> i don't remember for oneiric
[14:56] <scott-work> i'm going to check the build logs for precise to see if nmapplet is shipping currently
[14:56] <astraljava> It should show up in oneiric, but I am not sure whether I had to fix something on my setup, it's been ages since it was installed.
[14:59] <scott-work> is this it?  gnome-netstatus-applet
[15:00] <astraljava> It used to be /usr/bin/nm-applet, but it could be anything in precise. I haven't followed.
[15:01] <scott-work> but you say it's built by gnome-network-manager?
[15:01] <scott-work> cyphermox: does network manager build the nmapplet?
[15:01] <cyphermox> no, the source package is called network-manager-applet
[15:02] <scott-work> cyphermox: you said that "no networkmanager is shipped in precise"  can you clarify that please?
[15:02] <scott-work> i'm afraid i'm not extensibly knowledgeable about the various network managers
[15:02] <scott-work> what _should_ we be using?
[15:03] <cyphermox> there's not a huge number of options, really
[15:03] <scott-work> this is what we are currently shipping (from the seeds): gnome-netstatus-applet
[15:03] <astraljava> scott-work: No, network-manager-gnome.
[15:03] <cyphermox> what's in main, supported, etc. is network-manager/network-manager-gnome
[15:03] <scott-work> scratch what i posted last 
[15:03] <scott-work> (avahi-autoipd)              # IPv4 link-local interface configuration support  15 	   * (network-manager-gnome)	# replacing gnome-network-admin due to usability  16 	  # Copied from Xubuntu  17 	   * (network-manager-pptp)  18 	   * (network-manager-pptp-gnome)
[15:03] <astraljava> scott-work: Pay attention now! :)
[15:03] <scott-work> lol
[15:04] <scott-work> okay, network-manager/network-manager-gnome :)
[15:04] <scott-work> okay, we are currently shipping network-manager-gnome
[15:04] <scott-work> cyphermox: does this pull in the applet automatically?
[15:04] <cyphermox> network-manager-gnome *is* the applet
[15:04] <astraljava> HE SHOOTS, HE SCOOOOOOREEEEESS!!!!
[15:04] <cyphermox> :)
[15:04] <scott-work> oh
[15:05] <astraljava> scott-work: dpkg -L network-manager-gnome|grep nm-applet
[15:05] <scott-work> at work on windows machine :(
[15:05] <scott-work> does the applet actually do handling of the netwrok, or just report the status?
[15:05] <astraljava> That's no excuse. Surely you have ssh connection to your home box?
[15:05] <cyphermox> it depends on network-manager, so it's kind of weird if somebody says that the icon isn't showing
[15:05] <scott-work> AH
[15:05] <cyphermox> astraljava: tbh I was expecting that the bug was really an issue with a glib change or something
[15:06] <cyphermox> (or gtk)
[15:06] <astraljava> cyphermox: Right. Well, gotta investigate over the weekend. I'll install it on another drive on my workhorse.
[15:06] <scott-work> so avahi-autoipd, network-manager-pptp-gnome, or network-manager-pptp are not a network manager?
[15:06] <scott-work> again, my ignorance is showing
[15:07] <cyphermox> astraljava: I'm still working on an update of network-manager for precise, it's waiting for an update of libnl3
[15:07] <cyphermox> once that is done I'll start fixing up NM, and then the applet
[15:08] <scott-work> looking at this it looks like we ship the same as ubuntu desktop:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~utlemming/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.precise/view/head:/desktop
[15:10] <scott-work> my original thought was that we _were_ shipping a network-manger but either were not shipping the applet or somehow had screwed up the panel to not show the applet
[15:10] <scott-work> but from what cyphermox has said it sounds like we might not be shipping a network-manager?
[15:10] <cyphermox> no, that's just what astraljava was suggesting was happening, but it clearly can't be the case
[15:11] <cyphermox> it could be *not running*, but it's a depends of nm-applet
[15:15] <scott-work> i see in launchpad that the source package "network-manager-applet" yields the "network-manager-gnome" binary - this is starting to fill in some holes for me
[15:17] <scott-work> and i see in the control file that network-admin-gnome provides the nm-applet
[15:18] <scott-work> so it would seem that since our seeds ships network-admin-gnome that we should have what we need (updates aside), is this correct cyphermox ?
[15:19] <cyphermox> because it ships network-manager-gnome; you have what you need
[15:19] <cyphermox> I'll start setting up a system with ubuntu-studio or xubuntu to give this a shot, it's very unusual
[15:20] <scott-work> thank you, both for the answers and for testing
[15:21] <astraljava> cyphermox: If you don't want to do that, give me approx. 10 hours, when I get home from company "Pikkujoulut" I can install it and report back.
[15:22] <cyphermox> astraljava: bah, no worries
[15:22] <cyphermox> seems this might actually be the installer's fault
[15:22] <scott-work> build logs show that it was put on the disc
[15:22] <cyphermox> with network, it might be writing to /etc/network/interfaces , then NM doesn't manage the interface
[15:24] <astraljava> cyphermox: That's weird. But I'll admit I have never installed using the wireless interface. Gotta give it a go, really.
[15:25] <cyphermox> aye
[15:27] <astraljava> I must admit, I'm not a very patriotic person. Finns should even hate our western neighbors like plague, but on my last.fm listing, six of my TOP 8 bands come from Sweden, with 5 first spots. Then there's one dutch band, and one norwegian.
[15:28] <scott-work> astraljava: me either, i always use desktops which are wired :/
[15:29] <astraljava> scott-work: Earlier I always used alternate installer anyway, and it's always a pain to setup the wireless with that. So I wired all laptops too.
[15:32] <scott-work> going with the live dvd later on should help with this as well, i would think. at least from a user's perspective
[15:33] <astraljava> Definitely.
[15:33] <astraljava> Ok, off to the xmas party. See ya later.
[21:38] <len> I just looked through the back logs with respect to NM.
[21:39] <len> US does have NM installed by default and it does work.
[21:39] <len> however, it does not work as it should because of the install process
[21:40] <len> This seems to be a problem with the alternate installs as xubuntu has the same problem.
[21:41] <len> if I install with no network connection... that is I make the network connection fail, it works as I think it should.
[21:42] <len> If during install I setup a wireless port. Then NM can't manage that port because the setup info I gave has been added to the init.d network setup.
[21:44] <len> This seems to be a problem with the base install, not UbuntuStudio.
[21:44] <len> So don't "fix" anything yet.
[22:07] <len> Ok, off to do another install and try removing wlan from init.d files.