[08:33] <m0ng> hello?
[08:35] <m0ng> is anyone else there?
[09:08] <AlanBell> morning all
[09:12] <m0ng> good morning
[09:13] <m0ng> i wonder if anyone can help - i'm not very good with linux
[09:14] <m0ng> i upgraded my ubuntu install from 10.10 to 11.04 and for some reason it thinks i'm using a tablet pc or something
[09:14] <m0ng> the interface is all messed up an the icons are huge and i can't finf the menu bar
[09:15] <m0ng> did i turn on accesibility options by mistake?
[09:15] <ubuntubhoy> 11.04 uses the Unity interface by default, you would have been using Gnome before
[09:16] <m0ng> oh
[09:16] <ubuntubhoy> when you log-in, if you press the little settings icon, you can select gnome classic instead
[09:16] <m0ng> thank you
[09:17] <m0ng> why did they make the simple interface the default? surely it can tell i'm not a new user - i upgraded
[09:18] <AlanBell> it is the new interface, not the simple interface
[09:18] <m0ng> oh
[09:18] <ubuntubhoy> If you try it for a little bit, you may actually prefer it
[09:18] <ubuntubhoy> lots of people do
[09:18] <KrimZon> what interface?
[09:18] <AlanBell> dunno about huge icons though, they are 48px wide
[09:18] <m0ng> i thought it was for children or something - why is everything so big?
[09:19] <ubuntubhoy> can you supply a screenshot
[09:19] <m0ng> and i cant get the menu bar
[09:19] <m0ng> how do i screenshot?
[09:20] <ubuntubhoy> the top left icon gives you the meny
[09:20] <ubuntubhoy> menu*
[09:20] <AlanBell> press the prtscr key on your keyboard
[09:20] <AlanBell> application menus are now in a global menu at the top, bit like on a mac
[09:20] <m0ng> oh
[09:21] <AlanBell> the thing on the left is the launcher bar, it mixes up stuff that is running and bookmarks to stuff that isn't running
[09:21] <AlanBell> bit like a mac
[09:21] <m0ng> gah!
[09:21] <AlanBell> top left is a circle of friends icon that opens the dash, with 8 big icons to do stuff you don't want to do, click more apps and you get to a lens
[09:22] <m0ng> why didn't it ask me?
[09:22] <ubuntubhoy> because it is the default on Ubuntu now
[09:22] <m0ng> i remember when i first started you could have kde or gnome
[09:22] <m0ng> for ubuntu or kubuntu
[09:22] <AlanBell> it did ask, it said do you want to upgrade and you said yes :)
[09:22] <m0ng> oh
[09:22] <ubuntubhoy> you still can, but Gnome has also changed to Gnome Shell - Google it
[09:23] <ubuntubhoy> it is also very different
[09:23] <m0ng> its very confusing
[09:23] <AlanBell> not sure it ever asked about KDE or GNOME, you either put in a kubuntu or Ubuntu CD
[09:23] <m0ng> when i downloaded it
[09:23] <m0ng> i mean
[09:23] <ubuntubhoy> m0ng, its not confusing, just new
[09:23] <m0ng> haha
[09:23] <m0ng> i'm confused by new things
[09:23] <AlanBell> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Ubuntu_11.10_Final.png are those the big icons you mean?
[09:24] <ubuntubhoy> the interface is very easy to use
[09:24] <m0ng> i stopped using macs when they changed
[09:25] <m0ng> yes! huge!
[09:25] <m0ng> i'm not blind yet!
[09:25] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[09:25] <ubuntubhoy> they are jst the menu icons
[09:25] <ubuntubhoy> just*
[09:25] <m0ng> it looks like my telephone made bigger
[09:25] <m0ng> for pressing with a finger
[09:26] <m0ng> like one of these ipads
[09:26] <AlanBell> yeah, I have no idea what they were on when making the dash, 8 hardcoded huge buttons
[09:26] <m0ng> but i don't have a touch screen, its an old laptop :(
[09:26] <AlanBell> apparently that is changing in 12.04 but I have not seen it yet
[09:26] <m0ng> ok
[09:26] <ubuntubhoy> if you REALLY dont like unity have a look at gnome shell
[09:27] <ubuntubhoy> but as I say, it is also VERY different from old Gnome 2.3
[09:27] <m0ng> i just find it confusing, because i remember where things are
[09:27] <m0ng> and now everything is somewhere else
[09:28] <AlanBell> yes, and not organised either
[09:28] <m0ng> exactly
[09:28] <AlanBell> however, there is an easy way to get to things
[09:28] <m0ng> go on...
[09:28] <AlanBell> hit the super button (windows key) and type the first few letters of what you are thinking
[09:28] <AlanBell> then click it, or if it is the first thing below the search box just hit return
[09:28] <m0ng> that means taking my hand off the travkpad though
[09:29] <AlanBell> yeah, it is less mouse friendly
[09:29] <m0ng> also, it means i have to remember the name of everything
[09:29] <AlanBell> indeed
[09:29] <m0ng> i thought xerox solved this problem in the late 70's.
[09:29] <AlanBell> there are also filters on the applications lens
[09:30] <ubuntubhoy> m0ng, I would give it a couple of days, my wife and daughters actually prefer it
[09:30] <m0ng> waitwhatnow
[09:31] <m0ng> application lens
[09:31] <AlanBell> my kids like it, I can cope with it, I think it is a decent concept but badly implemented in places
[09:31] <m0ng> i'm old. i'm officialy old. i feel like my father when i was trying to explain how to program the vcr
[09:31] <AlanBell> ok, so lenses
[09:32] <AlanBell> hit the BFB (Big Friendly Button top left)
[09:32] <m0ng> right...
[09:32] <AlanBell> that is the dash, with 8 useless buttons, it is kind of a lens
[09:32] <ubuntubhoy> (BFB = dark imposing Ubuntu icon)
[09:32] <AlanBell> more apps takes you to the applications lens, as does media apps and internet apps
[09:33] <AlanBell> at the bottom of the dash panel there are 4 icons, home, apps, files and music
[09:33] <m0ng> er right
[09:33] <AlanBell> I have *no* idea why apps isn't the default lens
[09:33] <AlanBell> the apps lens is where all the stuff in your menu got shoved
[09:33] <AlanBell> plus it delivers adverts for stuff you don't have from the software centre
[09:34] <AlanBell> so, for example to launch the gimp you do the following
[09:34] <m0ng> what about my menu bar for the wifi and the clock and the weather and all that stuff that lives up top on the right?
[09:34] <AlanBell> click the bfb
[09:34] <AlanBell> click the more apps button
[09:34] <AlanBell> click the filter button
[09:34] <AlanBell> click the graphics category
[09:34] <ubuntubhoy> m0ng, that should still be there
[09:35] <AlanBell> click see more results next to installed
[09:35] <AlanBell> click the gimp
[09:35] <AlanBell> now wasn't that an improvement :)
[09:35] <m0ng> I'm not ready to be old!
[09:35] <ubuntubhoy> count yourself lucky, I already am
[09:36] <m0ng> that must make sense to someone, but it makes no sense to me
[09:36] <AlanBell> or hit super type "gim" hit return
[09:36] <m0ng> this feels like the month it took me to make my windows pc normal after windows 7
[09:36] <m0ng> :(
[09:37] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[09:37] <ubuntubhoy> windows PC's are NEVER normal
[09:37] <AlanBell> the search field is the good part of unity, try to use that more
[09:37] <m0ng> why must they change things? it wasnt broken before.
[09:37] <AlanBell> actually dunno if the music lens is good, never tried that
[09:37] <m0ng> if i wanted to type i woulnt h
[09:38] <ubuntubhoy> because Gnome 2.3 became obsolete is one reason
[09:38] <m0ng> have bothered with a gui
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> ubuntubhoy: 2.3 has been obsolete for ages. 2.30 however...
[09:38] <AlanBell> heh, so in the music lens if you click an album is it supposed to do anything?
[09:38] <ubuntubhoy> yeah yeah
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it starts playing the album in banshee for me
[09:39] <ubuntubhoy> nev er used it
[09:39] <m0ng> maybe i'm looking for the wrong things
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: but that might be a precise feature :)
[09:39] <AlanBell> oh, I uninstalled banshee
[09:39] <ubuntubhoy> haha
[09:40] <m0ng> i just want to do the same things i've always done, just faster and more reliably.
[09:40] <m0ng> at the end of the day this is just a glorified typewriter
[09:40] <ubuntubhoy> once you learn the interface it is fast
[09:41] <KrimZon> why is it application-centric?
[09:41] <AlanBell> yeah, you are not alone, and I think it is heading back into a more useable direction
[09:41] <ubuntubhoy> m0ng, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6Ae15Z5Kk&feature=related
[09:41] <ubuntubhoy> that is a look at Gnome Shell
[09:41] <ubuntubhoy> mhy preferance
[09:41] <ubuntubhoy> my*
[09:43] <AlanBell> the redesign work seemed to over emphasise playing music and looking at photos and watching films rather than actually doing anything on the computer
[09:43] <m0ng> if i wanted that i'd be on my playstation
[09:43] <m0ng> that video looks very swish, but i doubt my laptop is up to it
[09:44] <m0ng> also, i've just noticed my sound appears to be broken
[09:44] <AlanBell> anyone heard anything about Canonical's corporate desktop reference respin?
[09:44] <ubuntubhoy> nope
[09:44] <ubuntubhoy> well, I'm sure someone has, just not me
[09:44] <AlanBell> it was announced at UDS but I have heard nothing since
[09:44] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: There is one? You know more than most people :)
[09:47] <AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t11:42
 Alanbell, I think you're right, and we can nail that at UDS
[09:49] <m0ng> well, thanks guys, i'll give it a try for a bit, but it does seem like older boys at school claiming "it hurts the first few times but you get used to it and might like it - i do"
[09:49] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[09:50] <ubuntubhoy> just remember, if your really hate Unity - there are other options
[09:50] <ubuntubhoy> lots of em
[09:50] <m0ng> I guess i just like consistency
[09:51] <MartijnVdS> Text mode consoles have consistency ;)
[09:51] <m0ng> but then again going from Mac system 6.0.5 to 6.0.8 with multifinder was confusing at first
[09:52] <m0ng> and I'm completely lost on these new macs
[09:52] <m0ng> so many bouncy things bobbling up and down
[09:53] <ubuntubhoy> m0ng, if you want something that kinda looks and feels like old Gnome then try Lubuntu with the LXDE desktop
[09:53] <ubuntubhoy> its not as feature rich as Gnome was, but also not as bloated
[09:54] <m0ng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:System6.0.8MacII.png if it looked like this i'd be less confused
[09:54] <ubuntubhoy> :D
[09:54] <MartijnVdS> Just think of it as a new thing instead of something that's like something you already know
[09:54] <m0ng> don't get me wrong, i like the fact that i have a colour screen now
[09:55] <m0ng> MartijnVdS, i like new things, but not sprung on me
[09:55] <MartijnVdS> m0ng: Only way to accomplish that is to develop them yourself :)
[09:56] <AlanBell> which is totally an option
[09:56] <m0ng> i guess its like i might like a hovercraft, but i'd be really annoyed if i came out my house to drive to work and someone had taken my car away and left me one
[09:56] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: well, maybe not the developing itself, but you can get VERY close without writing a single line of code by running the dev builds of everything
[09:56] <m0ng> because i need to get to work.
[09:57]  * AlanBell would love to go to work in a hovercraft, that would be *awesome*
[09:57] <MartijnVdS> unless it's full of eels, of course
[09:57] <ubuntubhoy> +1
[09:57] <m0ng> and if i want to learn to fly a hovercraft i'll chose when and where and in my free time
[09:58] <ubuntubhoy> but if you choose to update to a new version - is it not up to you to find out what 'features' the new version has ?
[09:58] <m0ng> hmm
[09:58] <m0ng> i see update and change as seperate
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> you shouldn't :)
[09:58] <ubuntubhoy> without change, what are you updating ?
[09:58] <m0ng> update kind of implies (in my mind) more of the same but better
[09:59] <ubuntubhoy> now that is funny
[09:59]  * AlanBell updates precise again
[09:59]  * MartijnVdS hopes they fixed sound in flash in precise
[09:59]  * ubuntubhoy needs to re-install his precise
[09:59] <MartijnVdS> it's the first thing that broke on upgrade
[09:59] <m0ng> like if i update my car from a vw golf mk 4 to a mk5 i might expect cupholders and maybe better fuel economy, not having the steering wheel replaced with a joystick
[10:00] <ubuntubhoy> or analogue speedo to digital?
[10:00] <ubuntubhoy> total interface re-design
[10:00] <ubuntubhoy> can be very confusing
[10:00]  * MartijnVdS has a nice loop in precise:
[10:01] <m0ng> more like analogue speedo to giant digital numbers right in the middle of the windscreen
[10:01] <MartijnVdS> install vlc -> all kinds of :386 libs become "installed but no longer necessary"
[10:01] <ubuntubhoy> now that sounds cool, HUD
[10:01] <MartijnVdS> dist-upgrade -> get all the i386 libs back but lose vlc
[10:01] <ubuntubhoy> lol
[10:01] <m0ng> and now the headlight dim-dip is accessed via typing 'dip headlights' into a search box
[10:02] <MartijnVdS> It's annoying, and I can't figure out WHY
[10:02] <ubuntubhoy> meh, mine has a freekout with opendesktop and the touchscreen wont work
[10:04] <m0ng> oh well, thanks again for the help, and if anyone here has any influence with anyone in a position to do so, may i suggest that things like this are a 'new' version in the future - ubuntu, kubuntu, GIANTICONHIDDENMENUSbuntu
[10:05] <ubuntubhoy> haha
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> it IS a new version
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> 11.x
[10:07]  * popey sighs
[10:07] <popey> morning all
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> \o popey
[10:10] <DJones> Morning
[10:13] <christel> good morning lovelies
[10:23] <MartijnVdS> \o christel
[10:33] <davmor2> czajkowski, prod and runs
[10:37] <brobostigon> good mornign everyone.
[10:38] <MartijnVdS> howdy brobostigon
[10:38] <brobostigon> morning MartijnVdS
[10:39] <daubers> morning
[10:39] <brobostigon> morning daubers
[10:40]  * MartijnVdS leaves again, time for some last-weekend christmas shopping
[10:40] <MartijnVdS> (I have too many siblings.. :))
[11:06] <AlanBell> I just found a use for the music lens!
[11:07] <AlanBell> it is the only one you can fully empty to get a screenshot of an empty lens so you can use it as a base to design a new one
[11:24] <AlanBell> off to get a christmas tree in a sec
[11:33] <aquarius> In the Power Settings (in precise), the "when the lid is closed" sections have Hibernate in the menus, but it's disabled. I remember something about disabling hibernate unless the machine's on a whitelist, but I'm not sure that that happened; can I re-enable it in order to try whether hibernate works?
[11:35] <daubers> Woot!
[11:35]  * daubers haz kindle
[11:36] <jutnux> \o everybody
[11:36] <jutnux> daubers: is it good?
[11:36] <daubers> jutnux: only just turned it on :)
[11:36] <jutnux> Ah. I was thinking of getting one
[11:37]  * jutnux groans
[11:37] <jutnux> tea is cold
[11:37] <jacobw> microwave technology pioneered in the second world war continues to benefits our lives to this day
[11:38] <jacobw> by ... allowing us to warm up our tea when goes cold :)
[11:40] <jutnux> But the Microwave is downstairs :-(
[11:46] <dwatkins> Microwaving tea sounds so wrong.
[11:47] <jutnux> It only heats it up ;-)
[11:48] <dwatkins> I know, jutnux - I guess I prefer to make a new cup than reheat one which has gone cold.
[11:48] <daubers> woot, textbooks loaded on kindle
[11:50] <jutnux> Sorry, kind of insinuated that you were an idiot there haha. I just drink the cold tea.
[11:52] <dwatkins> lol did you?
[11:53] <dwatkins> I thought you were just kidding, and I am only vaguely aware of the effects of microwaves on something like tea, which is mainly water, as opposed to vegetables, which probably get largely destroyed in terms of the vitaims.
[11:55] <jutnux> Or destroying a microwave friendly plate, in my case.
[11:56] <dwatkins> ah yes, I've done that before trying to heat bacon
[11:57] <jutnux> It just melted :-(
[11:57] <jutnux> And the smell was actually disgusting.
[12:07] <KrimZon> I burned a potato in a microwave once
[12:08] <gordonjcp> dwatkins: I've never understood why people think that microwave cooking "destroys vitamins"
[12:08] <gordonjcp> there's no mechanism for it
[12:09] <gordonjcp> not beyond heating which will eventually start to break them up
[12:10] <KrimZon> there was a horrible burning smell but no visible signs, so I thought my microwave was broken
[12:12] <dwatkins> gordonjcp: we had a talk from a nutritionist recently in my office, but she lost half the room when she started talking about energy and the crystal-based thing on her laptop to 'absorb the negative energy'
[12:13]  * dwatkins looks it up and discovers that boiling actually destroys more vitamins
[12:13] <gordonjcp> you lost me at "nutritionist"
[12:13] <dwatkins> gordonjcp: well indeed, you don't need any qualifications to do a talk and be introduced as one
[12:14] <gordonjcp> nutritionists are basically fake dietitians who got a "diploma" over the internet
[12:14] <gordonjcp> like "Dr" Gillian McKeith
[12:17] <dwatkins> so I'm discovering, yes
[12:19] <gordonjcp> basically, it comes down to this
[12:19] <gordonjcp> in the west we eat too much cheap greasy poor-quality meat
[12:19] <gordonjcp> and we don't exercise enough
[12:20] <gordonjcp> and we eat too much processed food, and "low fat" food
[12:20] <gordonjcp> cut all that shit out
[12:20] <dwatkins> I am generally aware of this, and taking steps to excercise more.
[12:20] <jutnux> Do you know that Diet Coke is worse for you than normal coke?
[12:20] <gordonjcp> eat properly, buy your meat at a proper butcher, and get your fat arse up some hills
[12:21] <gordonjcp> don't eat margarine or "low fat spread", that shit is horrible for you
[12:21] <gordonjcp> you could try putting maybe emulsion paint on your toast, it's not likely to be any worse
[12:21] <gordonjcp> it's certainly less synthetic
[12:21] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: "eating less, exercising more", in short
[12:22] <jutnux> Meat at the butcher is cheaper than Tesco, around here anyway.
[12:23] <MartijnVdS> Better taste too usually
[12:23] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: and not eating cheap crappy food, particularly meat
[12:24] <gordonjcp> jutnux: yup
[12:24] <gordonjcp> and you can get more unusual stuff
[12:24] <gordonjcp> supermarkets tend to have cheap crappy factory farmed stuff and then ridiculously expensive crappy slightly less factory farmed stuff
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: you can eat crappy food if you like, as long as you don't eat much and exercise to compensate :)
[12:24] <gordonjcp> and occasionally "ZOMG WOW CRAZY" shit like ostrich
[12:24] <jutnux> My Dad was having a barbecue and we went to the Butchers
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: I've lost 30kg that way :)
[12:24] <jutnux> and it was something like 20 burgers for £3
[12:25] <gordonjcp> you can't get mutton, for example
[12:26] <dwatkins> I wouldn't eat lamb or mutton anyway, friends of mine keep sheep as pets. It's on a par with eating cat or dog to me
[12:28] <jutnux> I've grown to love duck
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: do you eat chicken?
[12:30] <dwatkins> MartijnVdS: yes, but I try to buy meat that's not from intensive [i.e. battery] farms
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: but AlanBell keeps chickens!
[12:30] <dwatkins> I was not aware of this.
[12:41] <penguin42> he feeds them Kubuntu CDs
[12:45] <jutnux> I don't know whether I like Kubuntu or not at the minute.
[12:45] <jutnux> KDE even
[12:46] <jutnux> I think I will give it another try.
[12:57]  * MartijnVdS wants those neodymium magnets to arrive
[12:58] <christel> ooh ball thingies?
[12:58] <christel> they rock
[12:58] <MartijnVdS> christel: not balls, but round discs
[12:59] <MartijnVdS> Got a bunch cheap on ebay
[13:00] <MartijnVdS> going to sugru one to the lid of my record player so it'll stay up properly :)
[13:06] <christel> ah cool
[13:06]  * daubers makes moar coffee
[13:07]  * MartijnVdS found "Super Magnet Man" on Youtube. Never heard a stronger accent :)
[13:08] <jutnux> Does anyone here actually like Unity? Or do you all use XFCE?
[13:08]  * MartijnVdS likes it
[13:09] <jutnux> Me too heh
[13:22] <jutnux> popey: Are you still offering beta accounts for trublr?
[14:32] <daniel__> Hi everybody!
[14:42] <jutnux> \o
[14:52] <MartijnVdS> \o/ Plastikman
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqprso8TGOk
[14:56]  * jutnux pokes MartijnVdS
[14:56] <jutnux> too downbeat for me haha
[14:56]  * MartijnVdS is poked
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> it's a Saturday afternoon! :)
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> jutnux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyTazPPWIKk then?
[14:58] <jutnux> Would be good if I could understand what they were saying :-(
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> jutnux: the video is almost literally what's being said
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> depicts*
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> *grammar*
[14:59] <jutnux> Ph tihjt ;-
[14:59] <Nafallo> http://t.nafallo.me/mastering_swedish_-_lesson_1.mp3
[14:59] <jutnux> Damnit
[14:59] <jutnux> Touch typing fail
[14:59] <jutnux> Oh right ;)
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> jutnux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KzOZPRv5rs then?
[15:00] <jutnux> Not my kind of music haha
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> jutnux: you're picky, aren't you? :)
[15:01] <jutnux> Yes, I prefer rock haha.
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> jutnux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM6CjDjIqfE
[15:04] <jutnux> Much better ;-)
[15:04] <jutnux> Even though it's more swingy.
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> well they're the "Tiny Little Bigband"
[15:49] <jutnux> Joy
[15:49] <jutnux> Setting up a backup server
[15:50] <Nafallo> that is joy.
[15:50] <jutnux> So boring :-(
[15:51] <Nafallo> too easy? :-)
[15:53] <jutnux> Partly
[15:53] <jutnux> It's just to zip some photos onto and run some things
[15:55] <MartijnVdS> I just rsync to my synology nightly
[15:56] <jutnux> What was I thinking
[15:56] <jutnux> CentOS was installed
[15:56] <Nafallo> I use deja-dup w/ ssh-backend. it's surpringly simple
[15:56] <jutnux> say goodbye, foul demon.
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> Nafallo: deja-dup doesn't work for me
[15:56] <directhex> moo
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> Nafallo: it creates the destination directoy, then dies.
[15:56]  * jutnux pokes directhex
[15:56] <Nafallo> MartijnVdS: investigate why? file a bug?
[15:57] <MartijnVdS> Nafallo: I have a working setup with rsync, so I don't really care
[16:15]  * daubers demands that the world warms up
[16:16]  * gordonjcp adjusts the boiler, listens to the soft whooph of dead dinosaurs being turned into cosy
[16:18]  * daubers wishes he had a boiler
[16:19] <daubers> stupid electric heaters
[16:20]  * jutnux is chilling with the window open
[16:23] <MartijnVdS> time to upgrade the laptop to precise
[16:24] <jutnux> Is your desktop running precise MartijnVdS? (if you have one that is)
[16:24] <MartijnVdS> yes
[16:24]  * MartijnVdS likes living on the edge
[16:25]  * penguin42 has desktop and laptop running precise - from last week; haven't updated them yet today
[16:25] <jutnux> Has much changed?
[16:25] <MartijnVdS> not really
[16:25] <monsterwizard> how does one stop one's Drive from clicking
[16:25] <monsterwizard> it's worrying me
[16:25] <MartijnVdS> monsterwizard: what brand?
[16:25] <jutnux> Put a giant hammer into it
[16:25] <monsterwizard> :o
[16:25] <monsterwizard> acer ?
[16:25] <daubers> monsterwizard: Replace it........
[16:26] <monsterwizard> :(
[16:26] <penguin42> monsterwizard: Depends on the click; most are a sign it's dying - but some are just noisy
[16:26] <monsterwizard> it's only 5 months old
[16:26] <penguin42> monsterwizard: Use smartctl (or the equivalent in disk utils) to look at the error details on the drive
[16:26] <MartijnVdS> daubers: My brand new WD disk clicked, until I poked it with a "stop trying to go to sleep" tool from WDF
[16:26] <MartijnVdS> WD
[16:26] <daubers> monsterwizard: It's normally created by the head stalling/getting stuck
[16:26] <daubers> MartijnVdS,
[16:26] <daubers> MartijnVdS,
[16:26] <daubers> Grrr
[16:27] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Lesson here (don't use a stupid keyboard) and don't by WD disks :)
[16:27] <daubers> s/by/buy
[16:27] <MartijnVdS> daubers: yes, I've learned :)
[16:28] <MartijnVdS> But my other disk had almost died and it was the start of the HD draught (Thailand flood)
[16:28] <daubers> Know all about that :(
[16:28] <daubers> spent a week chasing drives for work. Think I have enough till feb now
[16:29] <daubers> £95 drive two months ago is ~£260 now
[16:29] <MartijnVdS> I hope SSDs start dropping in price before spinning rust does
[16:30] <daubers> unlikely, but would be nice
[16:30] <penguin42> odd a flood causing a drought
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> There's a lot of rust in the HD factories
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> too bad it's not in spinning disk shape
[16:32] <daubers> I've discovered that kindles are awesome at displaying datasheets for components
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> they are?
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> I've only used mine for books
[16:33] <MartijnVdS> also, I don't have too many components that have datasheets
[16:34] <MartijnVdS> not separated ones anyway
[16:34] <daubers> :)
[16:50] <brobostigon> afternoonings everyone.
[16:50] <MartijnVdS> hey, Doctor Who - Dreamland on BBC1
[16:51] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: when?
[16:51] <MartijnVdS> now
[16:51] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: isnt here, :(
[16:52] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: oops, looked wrong, it's bbc hd
[16:52] <MartijnVdS> sorry
[16:52] <brobostigon> ah, :(
[16:53] <MartijnVdS> isn't that on freeview though?
[16:53] <brobostigon> no idea.
[16:53] <MartijnVdS> http://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/questions/help_receiving/freeview_bbchd :)
[16:54] <brobostigon> ah, :)
[17:00] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: it will be on iplayer? so could i pull it with get-iplayer?
[17:02] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: I've seen it before
[17:02] <MartijnVdS> so it should be
[17:03] <brobostigon> ok, :)
[17:03] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamland_(Doctor_Who)
[17:05] <brobostigon> thank you.
[17:26] <martsbradley_> Hi Folks, can I ask about ddd here.
[17:26] <penguin42> the gdb frontend?
[17:27] <martsbradley_> yes using gdb on a C++ program called gpsim for simulating microcontrollers.
[17:27] <martsbradley_> I used to used ddd years ago but now I'm like a new user again.
[17:28] <martsbradley_> I can't get it to show the source files, its listing some of the header files.
[17:28] <penguin42> yeh, haven't used it for at least 10 years - I just tend to use gdb
[17:28] <martsbradley_> Then I can just use gdb if you can help.  I have used the command '  directory src' to add src to the source path.  The 'src' dir contains the cc files that I want to list.
[17:29] <penguin42> does that work?
[17:30] <martsbradley_> No, its supposed to add the 'src' directory to the source path so that the source files in that dir can be listed.  Maybe I've missunderstood the help.
[17:30] <penguin42> yeh, can you pastebin a gdb session showing what you're doing?
[17:31] <martsbradley_> I'll try that
[17:34] <martsbradley_> http://pastebin.com/kUe8AP5a
[17:39] <martsbradley_> Any ideas.   The pastebin session shows that "pic-registers.cc:1: Error in sourced command file:"  however that file only starts with the usual gnu copy right.
[17:40] <martsbradley_> Sorry I've realised that source is the wrong thing to do there, thats like source a file of gdb commands I think.
[17:42] <penguin42> martsbradley_: OK, so the directory command is OK
[17:43] <penguin42> martsbradley_: but go back a step; what are you actually trying to do - gdb is showing you the code it's at
[17:44] <martsbradley_> Yes its showing the main function thats defined in another file.
[17:44] <martsbradley_> That file is defined in a subdirectory called gpsim.    Most of the source code is under a directory called 'src'
[17:45] <penguin42> ok; so what do you actually want to do - breakpoint somehwere; list it? get it to show you when it stops?
[17:47] <martsbradley_> Yes that is what I'm hoping to do, list the bit of the program that I am interested in - very far away from the main entry point.
[17:47] <martsbradley_> Then in that part place a break point
[17:47] <penguin42> ok, I'm going to need to find a program to try this on - give me a moment
[17:48] <martsbradley_> thanks for helping
[17:48]  * penguin42 hits make -j 8
[17:52] <penguin42> martsbradley_: Right, so you can do something like    list frags.c:33   and it'll show you the source in that file, or   list frag_init   to show you that function
[17:53] <penguin42> martsbradley_: http://paste.ubuntu.com/773560/
[17:55] <martsbradley_> I was trying 'list <filename>:'
[17:56] <penguin42> yeh it seems to want either a function or at least a line number in the file (IMHO starting at line 1 wouldn't be a bad default)
[17:56] <martsbradley_> I'll try a little more around it, its no doubt something silly I'm doing wrong.
[17:57] <penguin42> np
[18:04] <martsbradley_> Got the problem,   the code I was looking to list was built into a shared library.  Therefore for gdb to 'see' that code I needed to issue the 'run' command which loaded the code and allowed me to list the source file.
[18:04] <martsbradley_> Thanks.
[19:55] <mattt> evening
[19:56] <penguin42> Hey
[20:01] <MartijnVdS> howdy
[20:04] <monsterwizard> lol ubuntu mention on BBC

[20:04] <penguin42> ?
[20:04] <monsterwizard> oops
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> cool -- http://www.euscreen.eu/
[20:04] <monsterwizard> here http://goo.gl/0pSC9
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> Lots of old TV from all over Europe :)
[20:05]  * penguin42 slaps monsterwizard with a very very frozen trout
[20:05] <monsterwizard> Merry xmas :D
[20:12] <MarquessDeBonBon> You could have said "Merry Fishmas" but no...
[20:12] <MartijnVdS> Merry Mishmash?
[20:40] <jutnux> Anyone here used Arch?
[20:40] <gordonjcp> jutnux: yes
[20:41] <jutnux> Is it any good? I like the look of xmonad.
[20:41] <gordonjcp> it's pretty decent
[20:41] <gordonjcp> I got a bit sick of them packaging bleeding-edge-but-broken packages
[20:42] <gordonjcp> I use Arch where I need reasonably recent stuff, and Ubuntu where I can get away with obsolete-but-stable packages
[20:42] <AlanBell> the arch community seems pretty toxic though
[20:42] <penguin42> you use ubuntu for obsolete?
[20:42] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: there are some total dickheads in it, just as with the Ubuntu community
[20:43] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Like any large community
[20:43] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: there are a couple of guys who start to get a bit mouthy in the presence of the Ubuntu fanbois who come in and crapflood #archlinux
[20:43] <jutnux> I heard xmonad is nice.
[20:43] <gordonjcp> penguin42: yeah, everything is so old
[20:44] <gordonjcp> penguin42: and I don't like the massive upstream vandalism in Ubuntu
[20:44] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Hmm OK; I prefer Ubuntu because it's quite new compared to Debian
[20:44] <gordonjcp> like the patches that break user settings in firefox
[20:44]  * penguin42 did used to use Debian/sid for a few years - reasonably bleeding edge, but they don't call it unstable for nothing
[20:46] <gordonjcp> I really don't like Debian's packaging system
[20:46] <penguin42> really? Oh - that's what I really like and why I stick with it - what in particular ?
[20:46] <gordonjcp> it's just *awful*
[20:47] <penguin42> can you be _slightly_ more specific?
[20:47] <gordonjcp> really opaque package build process, fragile dependencies
[20:47] <penguin42> hmm, is arch better at that?
[20:47] <gordonjcp> I stopped using Debian because I got sick of nuking and reinstalling on a weekly basis because apt had tied itself up in knots
[20:47] <gordonjcp> penguin42: seems so
[20:47] <Laney> you know that debian and ubuntu use the same packaging system?
[20:48] <gordonjcp> Laney: yes
[20:48] <gordonjcp> Laney: I don't attempt to package anything for Ubuntu, or use any packages that aren't in the base install
[20:48] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Interesting, I've not had to do that - but there again i do know how to get myself out of package knots, <--- machine was installed in ~2007 and has been upgraded all the way to current PP
[20:48] <gordonjcp> so far it's only dropped its guts once since 11.10 came out
[20:49] <gordonjcp> and that was because it lost its internet connection while updating
[20:49] <gordonjcp> when it tried to have another go at updating it started by basically deleting every package on the system...
[20:50] <penguin42> :-( That really shouldn't happen
[20:50] <Myrtti> so
[20:50] <Myrtti> do I need to install sun java from the website now?
[20:50] <Myrtti> I feel lost
[20:50] <gordonjcp> friends don't let friends use java
[20:50] <Myrtti> yeah, I'd gladly rid my sister of the bank she uses if I had 25k€
[20:51] <Myrtti> (the bank requires Sun Java to work)
[20:51] <penguin42> Myrtti: It might be in the partners repo - not sure
[20:51] <Myrtti> penguin42: not for long
[20:51] <AlanBell> penguin42: nope, it is coming out of the partner repo
[20:51] <penguin42> Myrtti: It's also worth trying openjdk-6
[20:51] <AlanBell> it is buggy and oracle have pulled it
[20:52] <penguin42> AlanBell: Yeh, and screwed up the license :-(
[20:52] <Myrtti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/2011-December/001528.html
[20:52] <AlanBell> withdrawn the distributor license
[20:52] <Myrtti> penguin42: been there, done that, got the mug
[20:52] <AlanBell> Myrtti: is it known not to work with openjdk?
[20:53] <penguin42> AlanBell: I found the eclipse in PP doesn't work with a -7 version; but I don't know enough about Java stuff to know what the right solution is
[20:54] <Myrtti> AlanBell: yeah, pretty much
[20:55] <AlanBell> well installing from java.com is always a possibility
[20:55] <AlanBell> but Oracle don't like you
[20:55] <AlanBell> is the lesson to learn from this
[20:58] <Myrtti> I'm trying to but I'm baffled by what this thing does
[21:04] <penguin42> Myrtti: Sorry, which bank is it we should avoid?
[21:08] <Myrtti> Danske Bank and her ilk
[21:29] <zleap> hello
[21:32] <popey> hello
[21:34] <zleap> i think i fixed the pgp problem
[21:35] <zleap> just waiting for a message thing to arrive to confirm,  i can then hopefully sign the ubuntu code of condust
[21:35] <zleap> conduct
[21:37] <popey> ☺
[21:46] <Laney> ☹☺☹☺
[21:51]  * mattt is getting his django on
[21:54] <zleap> ok
[21:55] <penguin42> eep! My gnome weather monitor is showing -2
[21:56] <zleap> ouch
[21:56] <zleap> ideal for penguins then :)
[21:57] <popey> zleap: success with the code of conduct?
[21:57] <zleap> i am waiting for the confirmation e-mail
[21:57] <zleap> so I  can sign it
[21:57] <zleap> need to register my pgp key first
[21:59] <mattt> penguin42: serious?  where you?
[21:59] <penguin42> mattt: Manchester
[21:59] <mattt> penguin42: FUUUUUUUUUUUUU
[22:00] <penguin42> zleap: This Penguin is next to a nice warm radiator
[22:00] <zleap> good plan
[22:00] <mattt> popey: so king's ride in camberley, dodgy or not?  :P
[22:00] <zleap> for human penguin fans at least
[22:01] <popey> mattt: wifey says rough
[22:01] <popey> mattt: anything on the old dean estate is
[22:01] <mattt> popey: i think old dean's a bit east tho, a good few streets over
[22:02] <mattt> popey: unless that spills over, at which point your wife is probably right
[22:08] <popey> mattt: you're right, she was thinking of the next road up
[22:08] <popey> i think they're ex-army houses
[22:08] <popey> are is fine
[22:08] <popey> closer to old dean than I'd like ☺
[22:17] <mattt> popey: yeah, if you go up the cul de sac on king's ride, it's all army homes i think
[22:17] <mattt> popey: the whole area is a bit odd to be honest
[22:17] <mattt> (but my finacee likes :/)
[22:27] <popey> heh
[22:27] <popey> AlanBell: see bug 885738
[22:28] <zleap> popey, done :)
[22:28] <zleap> well i have now uploaded my gpg key
[22:33] <zleap> now signed code of conduct
[22:34] <zleap> so can i use that gpg -- clearsign to sign any document ?
[22:53] <AlanBell> popey: interesting, thanks
[22:53] <jutnux> Fell asleep and X only just downloaded.
[22:53] <jutnux> 147mb in 2 hours
[22:53]  * jutnux stabs himself