| === ion_ is now known as ion | ||
| === ion_ is now known as ion | ||
| === doko_ is now known as doko | ||
| === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk | ||
| === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates | ||
| Tuxiscool1 | Hello. Since Unity started to be used by default in 11.10, I noticed that my application's menus are showing without their icons when the app uses the global menu. However, I've noticed that by using icons that are loaded from a system icon theme, they show correctly in the unity global application menus. So, in order to work around this, I figure I'll add Icons temporarily to a theme, but I need a few suggestions as to how I can go | 06:21 |
|---|---|---|
| === FlannelKing is now known as Flannel | ||
| === ubott2 is now known as ubottu | ||
| micahg | pitti: sorry, but I don't think I'll be able to get Firefox up tonight, will try to get it up later today so when you start tomorrow it should be ready (hopefully) | 09:17 |
| ManDay | Do I see this right that casper has no means for autologin unless running a Display Manager? | 10:49 |
| ogra | hmm, whoever approved nvidia-tegra into the archive, a BIG THANK YOU ! ... but it somehow ended up in universe ... should be multiverse (unsupported binary drivers) | 10:59 |
| * ogra would really like to see who accepted a package in the accepted message | 11:06 | |
| niels_ | Hello im Niels and im new to ubuntu development | 11:29 |
| sagaci | hi niels_ | 11:36 |
| Ampelbein | Riddell: Hi! Was the removal of kalgebra-dev in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kalgebra/4:4.7.90-0ubuntu2 by accident or is it gone forever? | 11:36 |
| niels_ | hi Id like to join the ubuntu development but im really new at this | 11:36 |
| Ampelbein | !development | niels_ | 11:37 |
| ubottu | niels_: Interested in becoming an Ubuntu Developer? Get started here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | 11:37 |
| niels_ | ok i have already configured launchpad and stuff | 11:37 |
| niels_ | but how do i join a project | 11:45 |
| niels_ | whats a good project to start on? | 11:45 |
| sagaci | what are you interested in | 11:49 |
| Riddell | Ampelbein: it's mostly now in analitz-dev | 12:12 |
| Riddell | Ampelbein: which I'll upload tomorrow | 12:12 |
| Riddell | Ampelbein: what do you need it for? | 12:12 |
| Ampelbein | Riddell: I was looking at the NBS list, cantor lists it as a build-dep. | 12:13 |
| Riddell | oh there's a new cantor to go with it | 12:14 |
| Riddell | it's all in the PPA, kalgebra was uploaded a bit early by accident | 12:14 |
| Ampelbein | I see, thanks! | 12:15 |
| === rsalveti` is now known as rsalveti | ||
| ManDay | Do you see a way which does not require hacking squashfsroot/etc/init/... to make casper auto-startx with the $USERNAME? | 13:00 |
| ManDay | Casper could need quite some updates. Looks like most of the code dates back to 8.04 and has a lot of "extremely ugly hacks" as the comments put it | 13:15 |
| === EyesIsAsleep is now known as EysIsPerson | ||
| === EysIsPerson is now known as EyesIsServer | ||
| Cheery | first time after I started using unity I consider stopping using ubuntu alltogether. it reminded me from one very nasty. | 17:59 |
| Cheery | the problem existed before gui change as well. | 18:00 |
| Cheery | but in different setting. | 18:01 |
| Cheery | Say there comes a need to configure something in ubuntu. so okay you quickly find the setting you have to change because you have search engines and help files and whatnot. | 18:02 |
| Cheery | the setting is layed into a graphical interface.. that's rather okay even if unnecessary | 18:02 |
| Cheery | now then say you have 'Open With' and you'd like to use ~/software/newest-blender for it. | 18:04 |
| Cheery | the actual feature you think should do this will bring you an 'assistance' menu that doesn't contain your blender in it! | 18:04 |
| Cheery | but that's not bad still. | 18:05 |
| Cheery | now comes the most deterring part. | 18:05 |
| Cheery | when you search for solution, you get instructions for using that gui setting and nothing else. | 18:05 |
| Cheery | I even found a forum post: | 18:06 |
| Cheery | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=04e9c7d6b9d25bdf1a8def4d722a6cab&p=11545913#post11545913 | 18:06 |
| Cheery | hey that's a good answer! except that the poster DID knew it already. :D | 18:06 |
| Cheery | and it fucks everyone off. | 18:06 |
| Cheery | you could overall help the user best by pushing the settings into single same place conceptually, yet keeping them physically separate. | 18:09 |
| Cheery | global configuration doesn't always work though. | 18:10 |
| Cheery | I'll think up something. | 18:10 |
| Cheery | about every config in linux is a textfile anyway. but some actually require gui to get them properly configured. :) | 18:15 |
| Cheery | '- | 18:16 |
| Cheery | alright. now I found it. with some more effort. | 18:17 |
| dobey | Cheery: i don't quite understand what point you were trying to make :) | 18:21 |
| Cheery | dobey: you have guis for changing settings and occassionally there happens that gui doesn't help you at all. | 18:27 |
| Cheery | dobey: but it doesn't end there | 18:27 |
| dobey | what do you mean by "help you" there? | 18:28 |
| Cheery | normally you'd change setting by typing config lines into a file. | 18:29 |
| Cheery | it's supposed to help you if you make a gui for changing those settings without opening the file. | 18:29 |
| dobey | i don't think a gui is supposed to necessarily help with that | 18:30 |
| Cheery | dobey: anyway. when you search for setting that gui app which was supposed to do what you wanted harms you because all your searches route to that app. | 18:30 |
| dobey | and i don't think users snould normally be changing configuration like that | 18:30 |
| dobey | were you complaining about unity, or configuraiton in general? | 18:31 |
| Cheery | dobey: ubuntu. though this appears in windows, which is why I don't use windows | 18:31 |
| Cheery | it may appear elsewhere as well. | 18:31 |
| dobey | changing things you shouldn't be changing, may break things, yes | 18:32 |
| dobey | that's not limited to software :) | 18:32 |
| Cheery | as 'open this file with a specific software I downloaded myself to a local file?' | 18:33 |
| Cheery | you may consider that's not a common thing to do. but you just screw yourself there because that's just plain ignorancy. | 18:34 |
| dobey | open the application, go to File->Open, find the file, click "Open" | 18:34 |
| Cheery | dobey: and what do you do with the nautilus app you've got? | 18:34 |
| Cheery | dobey: or auto-open in your browser? :) | 18:35 |
| dobey | i think everyone wants to get rid of file browsers in general | 18:35 |
| Cheery | because you can mutilate your way through doesn't mean things should be broken. | 18:35 |
| dobey | but all the necessary underlying pieces aren't quite there yet to enable that | 18:35 |
| Cheery | how do you get rid of file browser? | 18:36 |
| Cheery | you can replace it with a better app, yes. | 18:36 |
| Cheery | that'd be preferred actually | 18:36 |
| dobey | meaningful and useful search and indexing of files | 18:36 |
| JanC | dobey: I see no reason to get rid of file browsers, although they could become somewhat more intelligent sometimes... ;) | 18:36 |
| dobey | JanC: because browsing files is pretty much never what you want to do | 18:37 |
| Cheery | dobey: and what do you do when you want to create a directory? | 18:37 |
| dobey | file browsers are just very tedious and manual search interfaces | 18:37 |
| dobey | Cheery: you don't, because directories are meaningless | 18:37 |
| Cheery | dobey: if they are, why are they there from the start? | 18:38 |
| dobey | meaningless to users, not to computers | 18:38 |
| JanC | directories are more meaningless to computers than to users | 18:38 |
| ManDay | broder: Specifying ip=frommedia on commandline works even better than symlinking true from NetworkManager | 18:38 |
| dobey | i've never logged into my computer and thought "you know, today i'll make a directory" | 18:38 |
| ManDay | Does anyone know why, after I boot with casper, I got the CD added to my sources.list ? | 18:39 |
| dobey | JanC: not according to ls -d "~/.*" | 18:39 |
| Cheery | dobey: yeah. but you've probably thought today you're starting something, and create a directory for all work files you need for that thing. | 18:39 |
| Cheery | dobey: directories solve a *very hard* problem in somewhat sensible way. | 18:40 |
| dobey | Cheery: only because there is no better way to do it currently, because IDEs pretty much all suck. | 18:40 |
| JanC | dobey: those directories are there for the users, not for the computer (a computer doesn't care whether those files are in directories) | 18:40 |
| dobey | directories are easy because they're what everyone has used for the past 20 years | 18:40 |
| dobey | it doesn't make them the best solution | 18:40 |
| dobey | JanC: users don't care aabout the stuff in there | 18:41 |
| Cheery | dobey: this far I haven't seen better even if I have searched for one. | 18:41 |
| dobey | JanC: except for maybe .porn or something :P | 18:41 |
| JanC | dobey: but they care they are not visible when looking for their own files, which is why they are in hidden files/directories ;) | 18:41 |
| JanC | so directories were invented so that users could file away documents in logical places | 18:42 |
| dobey | JanC: not really, no | 18:42 |
| penguin42 | dobey: File browsers for stuff in .* blah you're probably right, but for organising there own files I think directories still make some sense | 18:42 |
| JanC | it might not be perfect, but it was better than what was there before ;) | 18:42 |
| dobey | directories were invented because there were no GUIs at the time | 18:42 |
| dobey | penguin42: not really | 18:43 |
| Cheery | dobey: directories persisted for long after there were GUIs | 18:43 |
| dobey | penguin42: organizing things is work. why should i have to do that work, when i have this super fast computer that can do it all for me? | 18:43 |
| penguin42 | dobey: How would you organise the files with a GUI in a way that was different underneath from directories? | 18:43 |
| dobey | penguin42: you don't. the computer does it. users shouldn't have to do that work | 18:43 |
| JanC | and when I say I still want a file browser, I certainly want it to be more advanced than what we have now (static categories of files) | 18:43 |
| dobey | Cheery: yes, because humans are lazy | 18:44 |
| JanC | BeOS had "dynamic categories" in its original file system ;) | 18:44 |
| penguin42 | dobey: hmm but what do you do with all those files you've got - I don't search for data a lot of the time, I know where I put it - it's the same with real paper | 18:44 |
| dobey | Cheery: and change is hard. cf. unity/gnome3 | 18:44 |
| dobey | penguin42: i don't have files. i have content, most of which happens to be encapsulated in files, because that's how computers have worked for 60 years | 18:45 |
| JanC | (or "dynamic directories" if you want) | 18:45 |
| Cheery | dobey: oh bend over with that. you said you'd want to index all your files and use search every time to get on your files. | 18:45 |
| JanC | dobey: data is stored in "files" in the real world too ;) | 18:45 |
| penguin42 | dobey: That's OK, but with your content would you want to organise that content in some way? | 18:45 |
| dobey | penguin42: don't assume that because i said search and indexing is the answer, that users are the ones doing the searching. | 18:45 |
| Cheery | dobey: or lets even forget the concept of 'file'. | 18:46 |
| Cheery | dobey: now. what do you got in there? | 18:46 |
| penguin42 | dobey: But I don't think in all cases the users or even the computer has to do search - I have an organisation and I know where I put some stuff (admittedly not everything) | 18:46 |
| dobey | Cheery: in where? | 18:46 |
| Cheery | dobey: say if you had thing you're fantasizing about, how would it perform? | 18:47 |
| dobey | penguin42: why do you care *where* it is on the hard disk? it is irrelevant. all you care to do is use the data. | 18:47 |
| dobey | Cheery: pretty much the same way my phone does. | 18:47 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Agreed, but I have a lot of data - I have the note about what I was doing with my bills, I have some notes about web pages I'm going to visit | 18:48 |
| Cheery | dobey: well you care about the location for backup purposes. | 18:48 |
| penguin42 | Cheery: That's avoidable | 18:48 |
| Cheery | dobey: also, you care that all the data is in consistent place so you can use it. | 18:48 |
| dobey | Cheery: not really; the backup software cares about location. all it has to do is back it up, and restore it, if need be | 18:48 |
| dobey | i don't care where on disk it is | 18:48 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I mean I have to separate some of my information into categories about different things I'm doing; I'm not sure I'd be able to give it information that a computer would be able to arrange any better | 18:48 |
| dobey | penguin42: you mean you want to tag your data? | 18:49 |
| Cheery | dobey: for example sometimes this fails because person sends a document file but not images he has linked into document. | 18:49 |
| dobey | Cheery: it doesn't fail. broken applications are still broken | 18:49 |
| JanC | as said before: the original BeOS filesystem worked that way, ages ago... ;) | 18:49 |
| dobey | a document should be self-contained | 18:50 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Yes, and I'm happy with directories effectively being places where all the things with the same tag are listed; but the interesting questions are what happens as you rearrange and delete things with a tag - it's not always obvious | 18:50 |
| Cheery | dobey: which you can do by wrapping your doc into a directory. | 18:50 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I mean 'directories' are after all a card-file analogue | 18:50 |
| dobey | penguin42: i don't understand your question. if you delete something, it gets deleted. | 18:50 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Or does it just remove the tag from some subset of the items that were so tagged? | 18:51 |
| dobey | Cheery: then it's not a document, it's a zip file full of crap | 18:51 |
| penguin42 | dobey: OK, if you just had tags what would you do to arrange a set of information in time order ? | 18:51 |
| dobey | search for that tag, and sort results by date? | 18:52 |
| Cheery | dobey: except if .zip file also contains an extra file which makes it appear as something else. | 18:52 |
| penguin42 | dobey: date of what - when you wrote it? When the stuff in the file talked about? | 18:52 |
| ManDay | Does anyone know why, after I boot with casper, I got the CD added to my sources.list ? | 18:52 |
| dobey | Cheery: stop making up hacky solutions to very rare problems, as some excuse as to why you need a file browser | 18:52 |
| penguin42 | dobey: IMHO what you end up with is a hierarchy of tags - which is OK, but a flat tag cloud is pretty useless | 18:52 |
| dobey | penguin42: whatever date you wish to sort buy | 18:53 |
| dobey | by | 18:53 |
| penguin42 | dobey: OK, so you've got a set of stuff tagged and with a date, and a friend comes along and gives you a copy of a similar thing that he's worked on - how do you differentiate the two sets ? | 18:53 |
| dobey | penguin42: directories are hierarchies of tags, but only one tag per N items | 18:53 |
| dobey | you don't tag it with a date; dates are inherent properties | 18:54 |
| JanC | dobey: even with your metadata-based document store, you will need a "file browser" (or "document browser", or whatever you want to call it) | 18:54 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Well I include the filename as well as the directories I guess | 18:54 |
| penguin42 | dobey: But a directory is not one tag - it's the hierarchy of how you got there - dave/photos/2011/december | 18:54 |
| dobey | JanC: no i won't | 18:54 |
| penguin42 | dobey: That's very different from dave/errors/2011/december | 18:55 |
| penguin42 | dobey: It's interesting gmail used tags initially instead of folders, but have now made them hierarchical and ended up with something closer to folders | 18:55 |
| Cheery | penguin42: I don't like that sort of sorting directories. | 18:55 |
| dobey | penguin42: and again, you don't actually care about the directories at that point. you care about the 'tags' as you call them | 18:56 |
| penguin42 | Cheery: It's sometimes useful though | 18:56 |
| Cheery | penguin42: I generally do not care about when it's created. :) | 18:56 |
| Cheery | penguin42: and it's stored by the file system already | 18:56 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I agree but I'm saying hierarchical linked directories and files are very similar to hierarchical tags anyway | 18:56 |
| broder | ManDay: that's done by one of the scripts in casper-bottom - if you're digging into what casper is doing, it's worth skimming all of them | 18:56 |
| penguin42 | (and I don't agree directories are a computer thing - we've stored things in books in organised libraries for centuries) | 18:57 |
| dobey | penguin42: this isn't a similarity contest though | 18:57 |
| ManDay | broder: I tried, haven't found it. | 18:57 |
| dobey | it's about improving UX, and reducing workload for the user | 18:57 |
| ManDay | I grepped for everything sensible but nothing came up | 18:57 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I'm OK with reducing workload for the user and improving the user experience, and I think a tagged approach can help - but I think as soon as you have more than a little bit of information you need something a bit more powerful than a flat tag cloud | 18:58 |
| broder | ManDay: ./scripts/casper-bottom/41apt_cdrom | 18:58 |
| dobey | penguin42: this also isn't about libraries; and they've only been that way, because we're only at the point of replacing them with electronics now. | 18:58 |
| dobey | penguin42: i don't know why you're assuming some sort of flat tag cloud | 18:58 |
| dobey | tags are a single piece of data | 18:59 |
| penguin42 | dobey: OK, can you explain what you mean by a tag just so we understand | 18:59 |
| JanC | I would say all forms of metadata is what you want | 19:00 |
| dobey | a tag is a user-defined piece of metadata they add to something; like tagging some recipes as breakfast, lunch, dinner, brunch, or dessert or something | 19:00 |
| dobey | JanC: which is why i said indexing, not tagging | 19:00 |
| JanC | and if you like to add directory=dave/errors/2011/december as metadata, that's fine ;) | 19:00 |
| Cheery | hmm found a way to add .desktop, but did not find how to get the 'open with' work properly | 19:01 |
| dobey | Cheery: what are you trying to open with, with? it works perfectly fine here | 19:01 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I just found that tags work well for small amounts of data/files - like the few you might have on a phone, but when you have thousands of tag matches life gets harder | 19:02 |
| JanC | but even with all that meta-data, I want to be able to "browse" my files (even if it doesn't involve a hierarchical tree) | 19:02 |
| Cheery | dobey: I have application binary in /home/software/ which I want to use when opening a certain kind of file. | 19:02 |
| dobey | JanC: why? | 19:03 |
| Cheery | dobey: that binary doesn't show up in 'open with' -menu, and I can't see a button which adds it. | 19:03 |
| JanC | dobey: what's the alternative? | 19:03 |
| JanC | how do I find files/documents/data otherwise? | 19:04 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I find myself wanting to do things like restrict matches to only things with a particular tag, but not in the confidential set or etc etc and you start having to remember which tags you have | 19:04 |
| dobey | Cheery: the .desktop needs to have the mime type listed for the file you want to open | 19:04 |
| dobey | Cheery: and you need to run update-desktop-database on the directory where the .desktop file is, to update the cache | 19:04 |
| dobey | JanC: WHY do you want to browse files? your music should show up in your music player, documents in editor/viewer, videos in video player, etc… | 19:05 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Why do you want to separate the types of media? | 19:06 |
| dobey | penguin42: making your life complicated with directories or tags is still making your life complicated; but that is a choice you made | 19:06 |
| JanC | dobey: what if I want all files related to some topic/project, but don't know what the types of files are? | 19:06 |
| penguin42 | dobey: No, I believe it's a necessity when you have a lot of data | 19:06 |
| dobey | penguin42: i disagree | 19:06 |
| penguin42 | dobey: And that's why I like directories :-) | 19:07 |
| dobey | JanC: what is a topic/project? | 19:07 |
| JanC | dobey: it could be anything | 19:07 |
| JanC | that's the point exactly | 19:07 |
| penguin42 | dobey: No, but tags are good - I just don't think they can be used to remove directories completely, only to partially arrange stuff | 19:07 |
| dobey | JanC: then how do you know it is a topic/project if you don't know what a topic/project is? | 19:08 |
| JanC | dobey: I could give an example, but not exactly a definition (outside of "about everything") | 19:08 |
| JanC | say i want to find everything I have about Ubuntu | 19:09 |
| dobey | search -> "Ubuntu" | 19:09 |
| Cheery | now it suddenly just figured it out :o | 19:09 |
| Cheery | oh well | 19:09 |
| JanC | dobey: search where? | 19:09 |
| dobey | JanC: in the search application | 19:09 |
| Cheery | enough! I'm frustrated enough it with. >:/ | 19:10 |
| Cheery | now going to do the actual stuff I was planning. | 19:10 |
| JanC | so what's the difference between a "file search application" and a "file browser"? ;) | 19:10 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Hopefully that search application will have remembered all the things tagged with Ubuntu and organised them into a cache that will let it find all the things labelled with ubuntu quickly - lets call it a directory | 19:10 |
| dobey | it's not a file search application; it's a search application | 19:10 |
| dobey | penguin42: it's called an index | 19:11 |
| penguin42 | dobey: I think you'll find the thesaurus has those as the same thing | 19:11 |
| Cheery | JanC: idk. but it's sort of silly thing to think different if your filesystem is directory based. | 19:11 |
| JanC | I suppose that all depends on your definition of "file" | 19:11 |
| dobey | directories don't work here, without having N copies of the file, for every tag you want it to have | 19:11 |
| dobey | or N directories for all tags | 19:12 |
| penguin42 | dobey: No, we've got hard links - they do work | 19:12 |
| dobey | which are wastes of disk space | 19:12 |
| penguin42 | (or at least links of some type) | 19:12 |
| dobey | penguin42: and it's a complete hack solution | 19:12 |
| dobey | and a waste of disk space | 19:12 |
| penguin42 | dobey: As opposed to the waste of CPU time in searching for stuff you've previously organised? | 19:12 |
| JanC | and it works, which the alternatives don't (yet) ;) | 19:12 |
| dobey | JanC: local content are what people generally mean by 'file' | 19:12 |
| dobey | alternatives work fine | 19:13 |
| dobey | they just only exist on phones/tablets | 19:13 |
| dobey | penguin42: you clearly don't understand how optimizations work i guess :) | 19:13 |
| JanC | dobey: they don't work for the simple reason that most data lacks the required metadata | 19:13 |
| dobey | JanC: they work perfectly fine | 19:13 |
| dobey | there is no required metadata | 19:14 |
| dobey | i have never needed/wanted a file browser on my phone | 19:14 |
| ManDay | broder: Can I delete the concents of /run in the squashfs? | 19:15 |
| JanC | dobey: neither have I, but then again, I use my phone as a phone... ;) | 19:15 |
| broder | ManDay: yes, it will be shadowed by a tmpfs very early in the boot | 19:15 |
| ManDay | thanks | 19:15 |
| penguin42 | dobey: Well, not on my phone, but I do access google docs from my phone - albeit only with 2 or 3 files | 19:15 |
| penguin42 | <dinner> | 19:16 |
| ManDay | Any other directories which I may purge for the liveCD image? | 19:16 |
| ManDay | (besides the usual tmp ones) | 19:16 |
| broder | ManDay: probably, but i don't konw what they are off the top of my head | 19:16 |
| ManDay | ok, i guess /run is good neough | 19:17 |
| tehuser_u | Hello, I am trying to set up a PPA, and I do not know if I have correctly published my key to the keyserver, is there some way to determine this? | 20:25 |
| tehuser_u | launchpad won't accept my key fingerprint, and I think I published directly to the ubuntu keyserver about 20 minutes ago. | 20:28 |
| Ampelbein | tehuser_u: Go to http://keyserver.ubuntu.com/ and search for the user id to see if it is published correctly. | 20:31 |
| tehuser_u | ok. Cheers. | 20:31 |
| tehuser_u | ok, no it hadnt. thanks. | 20:36 |
| ManDay | Thanks broder | 21:29 |
| micahg | slangasek: I syncd libverto which is a new build-dep of krb5, but it'll need a push through NEW and an MIR before krb5 can build unless you want to temporarily switch to the in source version | 23:10 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!