[06:21] <Tuxiscool1> Hello. Since Unity started to be used by default in 11.10, I noticed that my application's menus are showing without their icons when the app uses the global menu. However, I've noticed that by using icons that are loaded from a system icon theme, they show correctly in the unity global application menus. So, in order to work around this, I figure I'll add Icons temporarily to a theme, but I need a few suggestions as to how I can go
[09:17] <micahg> pitti: sorry, but I don't think I'll be able to get Firefox up tonight, will try to get it up later today so when you start tomorrow it should be ready (hopefully)
[10:49] <ManDay> Do I see this right that casper has no means for autologin unless running a Display Manager?
[10:59] <ogra> hmm, whoever approved nvidia-tegra into the archive, a BIG THANK YOU ! ... but it somehow ended up in universe ... should be multiverse (unsupported binary drivers)
[11:06]  * ogra would really like to see who accepted a package in the accepted message
[11:29] <niels_> Hello im Niels and im new to ubuntu development
[11:36] <sagaci> hi niels_
[11:36] <Ampelbein> Riddell: Hi! Was the removal of kalgebra-dev in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kalgebra/4:4.7.90-0ubuntu2 by accident or is it gone forever?
[11:36] <niels_> hi Id like to join the ubuntu development but im really new at this
[11:37] <Ampelbein> !development | niels_
[11:37] <niels_> ok i have already configured launchpad and stuff
[11:45] <niels_> but how do i join a project
[11:45] <niels_> whats a good project to start on?
[11:49] <sagaci> what are you interested in
[12:12] <Riddell> Ampelbein: it's mostly now in analitz-dev
[12:12] <Riddell> Ampelbein: which I'll upload tomorrow
[12:12] <Riddell> Ampelbein: what do you need it for?
[12:13] <Ampelbein> Riddell: I was looking at the NBS list, cantor lists it as a build-dep.
[12:14] <Riddell> oh there's a new cantor to go with it
[12:14] <Riddell> it's all in the PPA, kalgebra was uploaded a bit early by accident
[12:15] <Ampelbein> I see, thanks!
[13:00] <ManDay> Do you see a way which does not require hacking squashfsroot/etc/init/... to make casper auto-startx with the $USERNAME?
[13:15] <ManDay> Casper could need quite some updates. Looks like most of the code dates back to 8.04 and has a lot of "extremely ugly hacks" as the comments put it
[17:59] <Cheery> first time after I started using unity I consider stopping using ubuntu alltogether. it reminded me from one very nasty.
[18:00] <Cheery> the problem existed before gui change as well.
[18:01] <Cheery> but in different setting.
[18:02] <Cheery> Say there comes a need to configure something in ubuntu. so okay you quickly find the setting you have to change because you have search engines and help files and whatnot.
[18:02] <Cheery> the setting is layed into a graphical interface.. that's rather okay even if unnecessary
[18:04] <Cheery> now then say you have 'Open With' and you'd like to use ~/software/newest-blender for it.
[18:04] <Cheery> the actual feature you think should do this will bring you an 'assistance' menu that doesn't contain your blender in it!
[18:05] <Cheery> but that's not bad still.
[18:05] <Cheery> now comes the most deterring part.
[18:05] <Cheery> when you search for solution, you get instructions for using that gui setting and nothing else.
[18:06] <Cheery> I even found a forum post:
[18:06] <Cheery> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=04e9c7d6b9d25bdf1a8def4d722a6cab&p=11545913#post11545913
[18:06] <Cheery> hey that's a good answer! except that the poster DID knew it already. :D
[18:06] <Cheery> and it fucks everyone off.
[18:09] <Cheery> you could overall help the user best by pushing the settings into single same place conceptually, yet keeping them physically separate.
[18:10] <Cheery> global configuration doesn't always work though.
[18:10] <Cheery> I'll think up something.
[18:15] <Cheery> about every config in linux is a textfile anyway. but some actually require gui to get them properly configured. :)
[18:16] <Cheery> '-
[18:17] <Cheery> alright. now I found it. with some more effort.
[18:21] <dobey> Cheery: i don't quite understand what point you were trying to make :)
[18:27] <Cheery> dobey: you have guis for changing settings and occassionally there happens that gui doesn't help you at all.
[18:27] <Cheery> dobey: but it doesn't end there
[18:28] <dobey> what do you mean by "help you" there?
[18:29] <Cheery> normally you'd change setting by typing config lines into a file.
[18:29] <Cheery> it's supposed to help you if you make a gui for changing those settings without opening the file.
[18:30] <dobey> i don't think a gui is supposed to necessarily help with that
[18:30] <Cheery> dobey: anyway. when you search for setting that gui app which was supposed to do what you wanted harms you because all your searches route to that app.
[18:30] <dobey> and i don't think users snould normally be changing configuration like that
[18:31] <dobey> were you complaining about unity, or configuraiton in general?
[18:31] <Cheery> dobey: ubuntu. though this appears in windows, which is why I don't use windows
[18:31] <Cheery> it may appear elsewhere as well.
[18:32] <dobey> changing things you shouldn't be changing, may break things, yes
[18:32] <dobey> that's not limited to software :)
[18:33] <Cheery> as 'open this file with a specific software I downloaded myself to a local file?'
[18:34] <Cheery> you may consider that's not a common thing to do. but you just screw yourself there because that's just plain ignorancy.
[18:34] <dobey> open the application, go to File->Open, find the file, click "Open"
[18:34] <Cheery> dobey: and what do you do with the nautilus app you've got?
[18:35] <Cheery> dobey: or auto-open in your browser? :)
[18:35] <dobey> i think everyone wants to get rid of file browsers in general
[18:35] <Cheery> because you can mutilate your way through doesn't mean things should be broken.
[18:35] <dobey> but all the necessary underlying pieces aren't quite there yet to enable that
[18:36] <Cheery> how do you get rid of file browser?
[18:36] <Cheery> you can replace it with a better app, yes.
[18:36] <Cheery> that'd be preferred actually
[18:36] <dobey> meaningful and useful search and indexing of files
[18:36] <JanC> dobey: I see no reason to get rid of file browsers, although they could become somewhat more intelligent sometimes...  ;)
[18:37] <dobey> JanC: because browsing files is pretty much never what you want to do
[18:37] <Cheery> dobey: and what do you do when you want to create a directory?
[18:37] <dobey> file browsers are just very tedious and manual search interfaces
[18:37] <dobey> Cheery: you don't, because directories are meaningless
[18:38] <Cheery> dobey: if they are, why are they there from the start?
[18:38] <dobey> meaningless to users, not to computers
[18:38] <JanC> directories are more meaningless to computers than to users
[18:38] <ManDay> broder: Specifying   ip=frommedia on commandline works even better than symlinking true from NetworkManager
[18:38] <dobey> i've never logged into my computer and thought "you know, today i'll make a directory"
[18:39] <ManDay> Does anyone know why, after I boot with casper, I got the CD added to my sources.list ?
[18:39] <dobey> JanC: not according to ls -d "~/.*"
[18:39] <Cheery> dobey: yeah. but you've probably thought today you're starting something, and create a directory for all work files you need for that thing.
[18:40] <Cheery> dobey: directories solve a *very hard* problem in somewhat sensible way.
[18:40] <dobey> Cheery: only because there is no better way to do it currently, because IDEs pretty much all suck.
[18:40] <JanC> dobey: those directories are there for the users, not for the computer (a computer doesn't care whether those files are in directories)
[18:40] <dobey> directories are easy because they're what everyone has used for the past 20 years
[18:40] <dobey> it doesn't make them the best solution
[18:41] <dobey> JanC: users don't care aabout the stuff in there
[18:41] <Cheery> dobey: this far I haven't seen better even if I have searched for one.
[18:41] <dobey> JanC: except for maybe .porn or something :P
[18:41] <JanC> dobey: but they care they are not visible when looking for their own files, which is why they are in hidden files/directories  ;)
[18:42] <JanC> so directories were invented so that users could file away documents in logical places
[18:42] <dobey> JanC: not really, no
[18:42] <penguin42> dobey: File browsers for stuff  in .* blah you're probably right, but for organising there own files I think directories still make some sense
[18:42] <JanC> it might not be perfect, but it was better than what was there before  ;)
[18:42] <dobey> directories were invented because there were no GUIs at the time
[18:43] <dobey> penguin42: not really
[18:43] <Cheery> dobey: directories persisted for long after there were GUIs
[18:43] <dobey> penguin42: organizing things is work. why should i have to do that work, when i have this super fast computer that can do it all for me?
[18:43] <penguin42> dobey: How would you organise the files with a GUI in a way that was different underneath from directories?
[18:43] <dobey> penguin42: you don't. the computer does it. users shouldn't have to do that work
[18:43] <JanC> and when I say I still want a file browser, I certainly want it to be more advanced than what we have now (static categories of files)
[18:44] <dobey> Cheery: yes, because humans are lazy
[18:44] <JanC> BeOS had "dynamic categories" in its original file system  ;)
[18:44] <penguin42> dobey: hmm but what do you do with all those files you've got - I don't search for data a lot of the time, I know where I put it - it's the same with real paper
[18:44] <dobey> Cheery: and change is hard. cf. unity/gnome3
[18:45] <dobey> penguin42: i don't have files. i have content, most of which happens to be encapsulated in files, because that's how computers have worked for 60 years
[18:45] <JanC> (or "dynamic directories" if you want)
[18:45] <Cheery> dobey: oh bend over with that. you said you'd want to index all your files and use search every time to get on your files.
[18:45] <JanC> dobey: data is stored in "files" in the real world too  ;)
[18:45] <penguin42> dobey: That's OK, but with your content would you want to organise that content in some way?
[18:45] <dobey> penguin42: don't assume that because i said search and indexing is the answer, that users are the ones doing the searching.
[18:46] <Cheery> dobey: or lets even forget the concept of 'file'.
[18:46] <Cheery> dobey: now. what do you got in there?
[18:46] <penguin42> dobey: But I don't think in all cases the users or even the computer has to do search - I have an organisation and I know where I put some stuff (admittedly not everything)
[18:46] <dobey> Cheery: in where?
[18:47] <Cheery> dobey: say if you had thing you're fantasizing about, how would it perform?
[18:47] <dobey> penguin42: why do you care *where* it is on the hard disk? it is irrelevant. all you care to do is use the data.
[18:47] <dobey> Cheery: pretty much the same way my phone does.
[18:48] <penguin42> dobey: Agreed, but I have a lot of data - I have the note about what I was doing with my bills, I have some notes about web pages I'm going to visit
[18:48] <Cheery> dobey: well you care about the location for backup purposes.
[18:48] <penguin42> Cheery: That's avoidable
[18:48] <Cheery> dobey: also, you care that all the data is in consistent place so you can use it.
[18:48] <dobey> Cheery: not really; the backup software cares about location. all it has to do is back it up, and restore it, if need be
[18:48] <dobey> i don't care where on disk it is
[18:48] <penguin42> dobey: I mean I have to separate some of my information into categories about different things I'm doing; I'm not sure I'd be able to give it information that a computer would be able to arrange any better
[18:49] <dobey> penguin42: you mean you want to tag your data?
[18:49] <Cheery> dobey: for example sometimes this fails because person sends a document file but not images he has linked into document.
[18:49] <dobey> Cheery: it doesn't fail. broken applications are still broken
[18:49] <JanC> as said before: the original BeOS filesystem worked that way, ages ago...  ;)
[18:50] <dobey> a document should be self-contained
[18:50] <penguin42> dobey: Yes, and I'm happy with directories effectively being places where all the things with the same tag are listed; but the interesting questions are what happens as you rearrange and delete things with a tag - it's not always obvious
[18:50] <Cheery> dobey: which you can do by wrapping your doc into a directory.
[18:50] <penguin42> dobey: I mean 'directories' are after all a card-file analogue
[18:50] <dobey> penguin42: i don't understand your question. if you delete something, it gets deleted.
[18:51] <penguin42> dobey: Or does it just remove the tag from some subset of the items that were so tagged?
[18:51] <dobey> Cheery: then it's not a document, it's a zip file full of crap
[18:51] <penguin42> dobey: OK, if you just had tags what would you do to arrange a set of information in time order ?
[18:52] <dobey> search for that tag, and sort results by date?
[18:52] <Cheery> dobey: except if .zip file also contains an extra file which makes it appear as something else.
[18:52] <penguin42> dobey: date of what - when you wrote it? When the stuff in the file talked about?
[18:52] <ManDay> Does anyone know why, after I boot with casper, I got the CD added to my sources.list ?
[18:52] <dobey> Cheery: stop making up hacky solutions to very rare problems, as some excuse as to why you need a file browser
[18:52] <penguin42> dobey: IMHO what you end up with is a hierarchy of tags - which is OK, but a flat tag cloud is pretty useless
[18:53] <dobey> penguin42: whatever date you wish to sort buy
[18:53] <dobey> by
[18:53] <penguin42> dobey: OK, so you've got a set of stuff tagged and with a date, and a friend comes along and gives you a copy of a similar thing that he's worked on - how do you differentiate the two sets ?
[18:53] <dobey> penguin42: directories are hierarchies of tags, but only one tag per N items
[18:54] <dobey> you don't tag it with a date; dates are inherent properties
[18:54] <JanC> dobey: even with your metadata-based document store, you will need a "file browser" (or "document browser", or whatever you want to call it)
[18:54] <penguin42> dobey: Well I include the filename as well as the directories I guess
[18:54] <penguin42> dobey: But a directory is not one tag - it's the hierarchy of how you got there - dave/photos/2011/december
[18:54] <dobey> JanC: no i won't
[18:55] <penguin42> dobey: That's very different from dave/errors/2011/december
[18:55] <penguin42> dobey: It's interesting gmail used tags initially instead of folders, but have now made them hierarchical and ended up with something closer to folders
[18:55] <Cheery> penguin42: I don't like that sort of sorting directories.
[18:56] <dobey> penguin42: and again, you don't actually care about the directories at that point. you care about the 'tags' as you call them
[18:56] <penguin42> Cheery: It's sometimes useful though
[18:56] <Cheery> penguin42: I generally do not care about when it's created. :)
[18:56] <Cheery> penguin42: and it's stored by the file system already
[18:56] <penguin42> dobey: I agree but I'm saying hierarchical linked directories and files are very similar to hierarchical tags anyway
[18:56] <broder> ManDay: that's done by one of the scripts in casper-bottom - if you're digging into what casper is doing, it's worth skimming all of them
[18:57] <penguin42> (and I don't agree directories are a computer thing - we've stored things in books in organised libraries for centuries)
[18:57] <dobey> penguin42: this isn't a similarity contest though
[18:57] <ManDay> broder: I tried, haven't found it.
[18:57] <dobey> it's about improving UX, and reducing workload for the user
[18:57] <ManDay> I grepped for everything sensible but nothing came up
[18:58] <penguin42> dobey: I'm OK with reducing workload for the user and improving the user experience, and I think a tagged approach can help - but I think as soon as you have more than a little bit of information you need something a bit more powerful than a flat tag cloud
[18:58] <broder> ManDay: ./scripts/casper-bottom/41apt_cdrom
[18:58] <dobey> penguin42: this also isn't about libraries; and they've only been that way, because we're only at the point of replacing them with electronics now.
[18:58] <dobey> penguin42: i don't know why you're assuming some sort of flat tag cloud
[18:59] <dobey> tags are a single piece of data
[18:59] <penguin42> dobey: OK, can you explain what you mean by a tag just so we understand
[19:00] <JanC> I would say all forms of metadata is what you want
[19:00] <dobey> a tag is a user-defined piece of metadata they add to something; like tagging some recipes as breakfast, lunch, dinner, brunch, or dessert or something
[19:00] <dobey> JanC: which is why i said indexing, not tagging
[19:00] <JanC> and if you like to add directory=dave/errors/2011/december as metadata, that's fine  ;)
[19:01] <Cheery> hmm found a way to add .desktop, but did not find how to get the 'open with' work properly
[19:01] <dobey> Cheery: what are you trying to open with, with? it works perfectly fine here
[19:02] <penguin42> dobey: I just found that tags work well for small amounts of data/files - like the few you might have on a phone, but when you have thousands of tag matches life gets harder
[19:02] <JanC> but even with all that meta-data, I want to be able to "browse" my files (even if it doesn't involve a hierarchical tree)
[19:02] <Cheery> dobey: I have application binary in /home/software/ which I want to use when opening a certain kind of file.
[19:03] <dobey> JanC: why?
[19:03] <Cheery> dobey: that binary doesn't show up in 'open with' -menu, and I can't see a button which adds it.
[19:03] <JanC> dobey: what's the alternative?
[19:04] <JanC> how do I find files/documents/data otherwise?
[19:04] <penguin42> dobey: I find myself wanting to do things like restrict matches to only things with a particular tag, but not in the confidential set or etc etc and you start having to remember which tags you have
[19:04] <dobey> Cheery: the .desktop needs to have the mime type listed for the file you want to open
[19:04] <dobey> Cheery: and you need to run update-desktop-database on the directory where the .desktop file is, to update the cache
[19:05] <dobey> JanC: WHY do you want to browse files? your music should show up in your music player, documents in editor/viewer, videos in video player, etc…
[19:06] <penguin42> dobey: Why do you want to separate the types of media?
[19:06] <dobey> penguin42: making your life complicated with directories or tags is still making your life complicated; but that is a choice you made
[19:06] <JanC> dobey: what if I want all files related to some topic/project, but don't know what the types of files are?
[19:06] <penguin42> dobey: No, I believe it's a necessity when you have a lot of data
[19:06] <dobey> penguin42: i disagree
[19:07] <penguin42> dobey: And that's why I like directories :-)
[19:07] <dobey> JanC: what is a topic/project?
[19:07] <JanC> dobey: it could be anything
[19:07] <JanC> that's the point exactly
[19:07] <penguin42> dobey: No, but tags are good - I just don't think they can be used to remove directories completely, only to partially arrange stuff
[19:08] <dobey> JanC: then how do you know it is a topic/project if you don't know what a topic/project is?
[19:08] <JanC> dobey: I could give an example, but not exactly a definition (outside of "about everything")
[19:09] <JanC> say i want to find everything I have about Ubuntu
[19:09] <dobey> search -> "Ubuntu"
[19:09] <Cheery> now it suddenly just figured it out :o
[19:09] <Cheery> oh well
[19:09] <JanC> dobey: search where?
[19:09] <dobey> JanC: in the search application
[19:10] <Cheery> enough! I'm frustrated enough it with. >:/
[19:10] <Cheery> now going to do the actual stuff I was planning.
[19:10] <JanC> so what's the difference between a "file search application" and a "file browser"?  ;)
[19:10] <penguin42> dobey: Hopefully that search application will have remembered all the things tagged with Ubuntu and organised them into a cache that will let it find all the things labelled with ubuntu quickly - lets call it a directory
[19:10] <dobey> it's not a file search application; it's a search application
[19:11] <dobey> penguin42: it's called an index
[19:11] <penguin42> dobey: I think you'll find the thesaurus has those as the same thing
[19:11] <Cheery> JanC: idk. but it's sort of silly thing to think different if your filesystem is directory based.
[19:11] <JanC> I suppose that all depends on your definition of "file"
[19:11] <dobey> directories don't work here, without having N copies of the file, for every tag you want it to have
[19:12] <dobey> or N directories for all tags
[19:12] <penguin42> dobey: No, we've got hard links - they do work
[19:12] <dobey> which are wastes of disk space
[19:12] <penguin42> (or at least links of some type)
[19:12] <dobey> penguin42: and it's a complete hack solution
[19:12] <dobey> and a waste of disk space
[19:12] <penguin42> dobey: As opposed to the waste of CPU time in searching for stuff you've previously organised?
[19:12] <JanC> and it works, which the alternatives don't (yet) ;)
[19:12] <dobey> JanC: local content are what people generally mean by 'file'
[19:13] <dobey> alternatives work fine
[19:13] <dobey> they just only exist on phones/tablets
[19:13] <dobey> penguin42: you clearly don't understand how optimizations work i guess :)
[19:13] <JanC> dobey: they don't work for the simple reason that most data lacks the required metadata
[19:13] <dobey> JanC: they work perfectly fine
[19:14] <dobey> there is no required metadata
[19:14] <dobey> i have never needed/wanted a file browser on my phone
[19:15] <ManDay> broder: Can I delete the concents of /run in the squashfs?
[19:15] <JanC> dobey: neither have I, but then again, I use my phone as a phone...  ;)
[19:15] <broder> ManDay: yes, it will be shadowed by a tmpfs very early in the boot
[19:15] <ManDay> thanks
[19:15] <penguin42> dobey: Well, not on my phone, but I do access google docs from my phone - albeit only with 2 or 3 files

[19:16] <ManDay> Any other directories which I may purge for the liveCD image?
[19:16] <ManDay> (besides the usual tmp ones)
[19:16] <broder> ManDay: probably, but i don't konw what they are off the top of my head
[19:17] <ManDay> ok, i guess /run is good neough
[20:25] <tehuser_u> Hello, I am trying to set up a PPA, and I do not know if I have correctly published my key to the keyserver, is there some way to determine this?
[20:28] <tehuser_u> launchpad won't accept my key fingerprint, and I think I published directly to the ubuntu keyserver about 20 minutes ago.
[20:31] <Ampelbein> tehuser_u: Go to http://keyserver.ubuntu.com/ and search for the user id to see if it is published correctly.
[20:31] <tehuser_u> ok. Cheers.
[20:36] <tehuser_u> ok, no it hadnt. thanks.
[21:29] <ManDay> Thanks broder
[23:10] <micahg> slangasek: I syncd libverto which is a new build-dep of krb5, but it'll need a push through NEW and an MIR before krb5 can build unless you want to temporarily switch to the in source version