[01:45] <cdahmedeh> hello friends! any recommendations for an arm development board? it needs to have hdmi output
[01:46] <cdahmedeh> ideally it should be easy to find (ie, don't have to wait 5 months for order), and not more than 150$
[01:46] <twb> development as in for a hobby, or with an eye to building something production later on?
[01:46] <cdahmedeh> hobby
[01:47] <twb> Dunno about the HDMI, the most important thing is to make sure it's arm v7
[01:47] <cdahmedeh> why is that so?
[01:47] <twb> ubuntu doesn't support earlier versions of the architecture
[01:48] <cdahmedeh> alright
[01:48] <twb> Which basically means not sheeva/guruplug, everything else is new enough design
[01:48] <cdahmedeh> ok
[01:48] <twb> A lot of people here seem to be using beagle/panda boards
[01:49] <twb> (I'm only here because my netbook is arm, so don't trust anything I say particularly :p)
[01:49] <cdahmedeh> hmm.. arm netbook would be an interesting alternative
[01:51] <cdahmedeh> the raspberry pi seems interesting, but i have a feeling they're going to be really hard to get at first
[01:51] <cdahmedeh> that thing is going to sell like hotcakes
[02:01] <lilstevie> raspberry pi is not armv7
[02:01] <cdahmedeh> i don't plan to run ubuntu specifically, debian would do
[02:02] <lilstevie> ok, well debian will
[02:02] <cdahmedeh> it's armv6 isn't it?
[02:02] <lilstevie> raspberry pi?
[02:02] <lilstevie> debian is armv4t IIRC
[02:03] <lilstevie> and yes, the pi is armv6
[02:03] <cdahmedeh> thanks, you answered my next question (-:
[02:03] <cdahmedeh> anyways, do you have any recommendations for an arm development board?
[02:03] <lilstevie> but really these armv7 devices are faster
[02:03] <lilstevie> beagle/panda
[02:03] <lilstevie> for dev boards
[02:03] <cdahmedeh> ok
[02:04] <lilstevie> beagle is omap3 panda is omap4
[02:04] <lilstevie> so probably over all I would say go the panda
[02:04] <cdahmedeh> sounds neat
[02:05]  * cdahmedeh looks at ship date
[02:05] <cdahmedeh> oh wow
[02:06] <cdahmedeh> jan 18 2012
[02:06] <cdahmedeh> (-:
[02:06] <lilstevie> heh
[02:06] <lilstevie> you can get the panda from digikey
[02:06] <cdahmedeh> that's where i checked
[02:06] <lilstevie> heh
[02:06] <cdahmedeh> sounds like these arm boards are tricky to find aren't they?
[02:06] <lilstevie> they can be
[02:07] <lilstevie> they aren't the most common things
[02:07] <lilstevie> I have the trimslice myself
[02:07] <lilstevie> but that is a fair bit more than your budget
[02:07] <lilstevie> panda is only just over it
[02:07] <cdahmedeh> yes exactly
[02:07] <cdahmedeh> the platforms are very interesting
[02:08] <cdahmedeh> the mali 400 sounds really nice, but so far the boards i am finding are expensive
[02:08] <lilstevie> yeah
[02:09] <lilstevie> well the mali-400 really are only in the exynos dev boards
[02:09] <lilstevie> and samsung devel boards are really expensive
[02:10] <cdahmedeh> wow, very expensive
[02:10] <cdahmedeh> wow these cost more than i thought they would
[02:10] <lilstevie> cdahmedeh: which do?
[02:10] <lilstevie> exynos, or trimslice
[02:10] <lilstevie> or...
[02:11] <cdahmedeh> the boards with the mali 400
[02:11] <lilstevie> ah yeah
[02:11] <lilstevie> they are like 300-400 IIRC
[02:12] <cdahmedeh> yeah something like that
[02:12] <lilstevie> tegra devel boards are terrible
[02:13] <lilstevie> that said, the ones from nvidia even have an lcd
[02:13] <lilstevie> but they are $1000
[02:13] <cdahmedeh> crazy
[02:13] <cdahmedeh> though tegra sounds like a great platform
[02:13] <lilstevie> trimslice is a tegra2 board and that will set you between 200-400
[02:14] <lilstevie> tegra isn't that great
[02:16] <cdahmedeh> it's a bit slower than the sgx 540 isn't it?
[02:19] <cdahmedeh> though i don't think i will need that much gpu to play with
[02:21] <cdahmedeh> there are no arm devices with regular open gl support right?
[02:22] <lilstevie> correct
[02:25] <cdahmedeh> i think i'm going to go with a pandaboard
[02:26] <cdahmedeh> the connectivity options are great, has two hdmi/dvi outputs
[02:26] <lilstevie> cool
[02:26] <lilstevie> yeah
[02:26] <lilstevie> and is supported by canonical
[02:26] <cdahmedeh> perfect
[02:27] <cdahmedeh> so that thing obviously needs a power supply which it does not come with
[02:27] <cdahmedeh> anything other accessories that i miss?
[02:28] <lilstevie> no idea, I don't have one
[02:30] <cdahmedeh> well thanks alot for your help lilstevie
[02:34] <twb> 13:01 <cdahmedeh> i don't plan to run ubuntu specifically, debian would do
[02:34] <twb> cdahmedeh: debian's new armhf arch is armv6
[02:34] <twb> *armv7
[02:34] <twb> So if you want to run Debian I would suggest still aiming for armv7
[02:35] <cdahmedeh> i'll take that into account then
[02:35] <twb> IME the most important thing is to buy a device that lots of other hackers use
[02:36] <cdahmedeh> and the pandaboard/beagleboard are the most popular ones right now. correct?
[02:36] <twb> Like back in the day, you would try to get a thinkpad or a powerbook -- not so much because they were good (though they were), but because they had a huge linux userbase and people actually made sure they worked
[02:36] <cdahmedeh> i noticed that
[02:37] <lilstevie> yes panda would be the target
[02:38] <lilstevie> most of the guys have pandas or beagles AFAIK
[02:39] <cdahmedeh> ok
[02:40] <twb> What's a panda cost, ballpark?
[02:40] <cdahmedeh> listed price is 174$ i think
[02:40] <cdahmedeh> sounds about right to me
[02:41] <cdahmedeh> plus you need to buy power supply
[02:41] <twb> US$?
[02:41] <cdahmedeh> shipping and taxes
[02:41] <cdahmedeh> yes
[02:41] <twb> Righto
[02:42] <cdahmedeh> like i was toying around with qemu, it's awesome, but there's no way to emulate opengles
[02:42] <twb> lilstevie: currently when I just naively open up a GTK2 browser and try to do multi-finger scroll on the touchpad, it doesn't work.  What bit(s) aren't configured for that yet: the touchscreen driver, GTK, the browser, ... ?
[02:43] <cdahmedeh> don't you need to configure x somehow?
[02:43] <cdahmedeh> maybe create/edit /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/50-synaptics.conf
[02:44] <twb> I didn't think tf101 was using synaptics hw
[02:44] <cdahmedeh> oh
[02:45] <twb> Hm, pandaboard is listed as using powervr GPU -- I thought they only worked with shitty binary drivers
[02:46] <cdahmedeh> isn't that the case for any 3d accelerated arm gpu?
[02:46] <GrueMaster> True for most any decent 3D gpu, regardless of arch.
[02:47] <cdahmedeh> the only completely usable 3d open source drivers are on intel as far as i know
[02:47] <cdahmedeh> and maybe some older ati chips
[02:47] <twb> cdahmedeh: and matrox!
[02:47] <cdahmedeh> i did not know that
[02:47] <twb> That was probably technically 3d
[02:48] <twb> cdahmedeh: they stopped making cards in like 1992
[02:48] <cdahmedeh> 1492*
[02:48] <cdahmedeh> (-:
[02:48] <lilstevie> twb: all arm devices use "shitty binary drivers"
[02:48] <twb> :-(
[02:48] <lilstevie> and same as x86
[02:49] <GrueMaster> Intel may make open source 3D drivers, but they still suck.
[02:49] <cdahmedeh> they're acceptable
[02:49] <twb> Well, AMD x86 yes, intel boards are pretty good
[02:49] <twb> as far as free-ness goes that is
[02:49] <GrueMaster> Depends on what you are doing.
[02:49] <cdahmedeh> it tends to die off when you use the more obscure opengl stuff
[02:49] <lilstevie> nvidia don't /really/ FOSS their drivers either
[02:49] <lilstevie> :p
[02:49] <twb> Except for poulsbo and iwl
[02:50] <cdahmedeh> yeah thoses are still closed
[02:50] <cdahmedeh> iwl isn't that great
[02:50] <twb> iwl blows
[02:50] <twb> it has closed firmware blobs
[02:50] <cdahmedeh> i have the strangest with iwl
[02:50] <twb> ath9k wtf
[02:50] <lilstevie> but twb as for the touchpad, it is not working properly
[02:50] <twb> *ftw
[02:50] <cdahmedeh> i have to get myself an ath9k
[02:50] <GrueMaster> Poulsbo is an odd case.  It is produced by Intel, but it is PowerVR IP (so Intel doesn't have access to TRM).
[02:50] <twb> lilstevie: driver issue?
[02:50] <lilstevie> multitouch is pretty much disabled in the touchpad driver :)
[02:50] <twb> GrueMaster: that's what caused my original question
[02:51] <lilstevie> the only thing you can do with it is two finger tap
[02:51] <twb> lilstevie: er, I'm talking about the touchscreen, not the thing next to the keyboard
[02:51] <lilstevie> oh
[02:51] <lilstevie> well you said on the touchpad
[02:51] <twb> Sorry braino
[02:51] <GrueMaster> It is worse than not having PowerVR drivers.  Intel can't develop Poulsbo in-house due to competitive reasons.
[02:52] <cdahmedeh> does poulsbo work at all under linux?
[02:52] <GrueMaster> At least Ti has the TRM to develop decent drivers, even if PowerVR won't let them open source the drivers.
[02:52] <twb> GrueMaster: pity, because atom Z has hardware VT; whereas the other atoms dont
[02:52] <GrueMaster> Poulsbo used to.
[02:52] <twb> cdahmedeh: yes using a crappy old kernel that supports the powervr gpu, or using vesa
[02:53] <GrueMaster> twb: I know.  I used to contract for Intel during the Moblin 1.0 days.
[02:53] <cdahmedeh> twb: sounds wonderful!
[02:53] <GrueMaster> Flash worked better running in XP in a VT on Linux than native at the time.
[02:53] <twb> Stupid intel "vt is a price diffentiator"
[02:53] <lilstevie> twb: I would guess the browser is not configured with utouch/gies
[02:53] <lilstevie> geis*
[02:53] <twb> GrueMaster: eh, who the fuck cares about flash
[02:54] <twb> lilstevie: yeah, definitely not :-)
[02:54] <GrueMaster> Heh.  Well, Moblin 1.0 desktop was flash based, so....
[02:54] <cdahmedeh> wait wait.. FLASH?
[02:54] <twb> lilstevie: which will also be why e.g. xterm can't use two-finger scroll
[02:54] <GrueMaster> yep.
[02:54] <cdahmedeh> i heard nothing then
[02:54] <twb> GrueMaster: urk; I didn't need to hear that :-/
[02:55] <GrueMaster> It was designed as a demo, then just kept going forward.
[02:55] <cdahmedeh> oh great
[02:55] <cdahmedeh> product manager type sees demo "LOOKS GREAT SHIP IT TOMORROW!!!!"
[02:55] <cdahmedeh> dev: "uhh.. sir.. this is flash.. like this is a demo"
[02:56] <GrueMaster> The *real* fun was testing Vista on the poulsbo.  Don't get me started.
[02:56] <lilstevie> twb: look up geis rules, you can probably add one
[02:56] <cdahmedeh> GrueMaster, why does it suck too under windows?
[02:56] <GrueMaster> Yea, I had engineers complaining that the moblin desktop would consume 50% cpu on login and stay there.
[02:57] <GrueMaster> cdahmedeh: Name ANYTHING that didn't suck under Vista.
[02:57] <twb> Need to drop flash and bring back hypercard
[02:57] <cdahmedeh> GrueMaster, uhm.. i'm going to need a few centuries to find something
[02:57] <twb> GrueMaster: ntfs hard links!
[02:57] <twb> IIRC ntoskrnl 6.0 added those
[02:57]  * GrueMaster would trade couchDB for zoomracks.
[02:58]  * GrueMaster wonders how many people are now looking up zoomracks in wikipedia.
[02:59] <twb> lilstevie: looks like libgeis got uninstalled when I threw out gnome, and it doesn't seem to be in the normal repos
[02:59] <twb> Oh, libutouch-geis, there it is
[03:00] <twb> Looks like geis is mainly used by unity, eog and evince.
[03:01]  * GrueMaster is EOD.  Later.
[03:01] <twb> explosive ordinance disposal?
[03:01] <GrueMaster> Well, that too.  :P
[03:02] <GrueMaster> Although I wouldn't call it "ordinance".
[03:02] <twb> Oops
[03:10] <lilstevie> twb: that is correct, you need to add rules for each program
[03:12] <twb> Does that work for arbitrary programs or only ones that are already linked to libutouch?
[03:12] <twb> Are there example rules somewhere I can look at?
[03:14] <lilstevie> look on the ubuntu wiki
[03:14] <lilstevie> there is something there somewhere
[03:14] <twb> Okey dokey
[03:18] <twb> It looks like ginn is the wrapper that deals with "legacy" (read: non-libutouch) X applications
[03:20] <twb> And utouch is an ubuntuism so it stands to reason other distros are doing something else...
[03:21] <twb> Oh, and apparently ginn isn't needed for "toolkits", which I think means GTK2 and Qt3
[03:22] <TheMuso> UTouch doesn't necessarily mean Ubuntu.
[03:25] <lilstevie> also I don't know any other distro that does touch
[03:26] <lilstevie> evdev still only supports single touch on most distros
[03:28] <twb> OK, it goes like this: evdev/synaptics > mt > utouch > grail > geis > unity/ginn/touchegg
[03:30] <lilstevie> evdev is the xserver module
[03:30] <twb> Right
[03:31] <lilstevie> and utouch/grail are the dm agents
[03:31] <twb> ">" meaning "is used by"
[03:31] <twb> DM as in display manager?
[03:31] <lilstevie> yes
[03:31] <twb> But I'm not even using a display manager
[03:31] <twb> I just do "xinit /usr/bin/appliction"
[03:32] <twb> *application
[11:52]  * ogra wonders why multivers is missing in his sources.list on fresh installs
[11:52] <ogra> *multiverse
[11:52] <ogra> funnily all other components are there