[00:00] <alkisg> I'm allowed to run an i386 kernel on an 64bit machine, right? :)
[00:00] <penguin42> most are, there are probably still some Atom and via ones that aren't
[00:00] <alkisg> So I have that guest for testing, and I just put various CDs in it without thinking if it's i386 or amd64...
[00:00] <penguin42> alkisg: I guess it depends what the drop down in virtualbox is - is it a mode setting or a hint to virtualbox
[00:01] <penguin42> alkisg: but yeh - I'd probably blame virtualbox - if it's the open one you're running then file a bug
[00:01] <alkisg> Btw let me say again that alpha-1 boots fine in that same guest
[00:01] <penguin42> ok
[00:01] <alkisg> Yeah I'm sure it's not a big deal, I don't expect to hit that in real hardware
[00:02] <alkisg> Thank you again :)
[00:02] <penguin42> worth filing a bug, someone else will hit the same thing
[00:04] <FernandoMiguel> hummmm
[00:04] <FernandoMiguel> this is a bity crashy here....
[00:05] <penguin42> alkisg: Damn you ! You've made me do an installer test!
[00:05] <alkisg> Hahaha
[00:06]  * psusi wonders if there's a reason to use virtualbox instead of qemu directly
[00:06] <penguin42> I've never tried the Kubuntu one before - it's quite slick actually
[00:06] <penguin42> psusi: I use KVM/QEmu - I think there are some things that each has advantages; virtualbox I think has better/faster graphics pass through at the moment
[00:07] <alkisg> psusi, coming (4 years ago) from a windows world, the vbox gui seemed more intuitive, and it rarely gave me problems, so I sticked to it.
[00:07] <psusi> penguin42, I thought virtualbox just was a nice gui configuration wrapper around qemu?
[00:07] <penguin42> psusi: No, that's virt-manager
[00:07] <alkisg> Nope, not at all, virtualbox has its own implementation
[00:08] <penguin42> psusi: And I use virt-manager - mostly because it takes care of all the fiddly QEmu options, unless I'm doing something wacky
[00:08] <psusi> the other day I was playing around in qemu with the balloon virtual device
[00:09]  * alkisg would like to start using those too, but they're incompatible with virtualbox :(
[00:09] <psusi> started a vm with 5gb of ram and used the balloon command to shirnk it down to 3g and back up to 5g.. and I only have 4g of actual ram
[00:09] <penguin42> psusi: It's a bit of a hack, I've never played with it
[00:09] <alkisg> So I can either have vbox or kvm installed, not both of them
[00:11] <penguin42> ooh, installer stopped at 86% for a while
[00:11] <psusi> still though, I prefer to just install experimental systems to their own lvm logical volume
[00:12] <psusi> I need to switch to btrfs one of these days instead of lvm... that will be awesome
[00:12] <penguin42> psusi: Yeh, so do I - that's where I point virt-managers storage at
[00:12] <alkisg> Btrfs doesn't yet have an fsck utility, does it?
[00:12] <penguin42> (Some versions are happier than others at dealing wiht it)
[00:12] <psusi> alkisg, it's a work in progress
[00:13] <psusi> though the need for one seems minimal
[00:14] <psusi> being able to make a snapshot, dist-upgrade to the development release, then roll back in seconds is awesome
[00:14]  * alkisg could use a compressed btrfs filesystem for thin clients...
[00:14]  * penguin42 wouldn't use it without it - especially given the number of 'Help, my system won't boot with my btrfs / anymore' bugs I've seen
[00:14]  * arand doubts fsck would help in those cases
[00:15] <psusi> if a fs keeps getting messed up so that it needs a fsck, it's no good... if you don't have a backup in case it does get messed up, which happens sooner or later on any fs, then shame on you ;)
[00:16] <penguin42> psusi: I'd agree, but you do want to do a check after something 'bad' has happened sometimes
[00:16] <psusi> I mean when was the last time you actually HAD to run a fsck on ext4?
[00:16] <psusi> and not just because of the silly time/mount count limit?
[00:16] <arand> In ubuntu it's somewhat the opposite, since using the existing fsck (not meant to be used at boot) causes many boot issues, while it helps... 0, since it is a read-only tool ;)
[00:17] <penguin42> a few months ago - on an admittedly rather experimental system
[00:17] <psusi> true... a clean fsck does help with the "oh shit" factor after doing something possibly silly ;)
[00:17] <arand> psusi: When I accidentally resized my lvm to 1MB ;)
[00:17] <arand> *lv
[00:18] <penguin42> psusi: It's useful after something like a hardware failure or when you try a little too experimental kernel :-)
[00:18] <psusi> online btrfs partition shrink is pretty sexy too
[00:18] <penguin42> oh that sounds neat - resizing fs always scares me :-)
[00:19] <psusi> it's so easy with btrfs... it hardly has to write anything at all
[00:22] <penguin42> yofel: I'm seeing some redraw errors on the 'more icon' button on the panel in both a KVM guest and on the host, is lp the best place to report or the upstream?
[00:22] <penguin42> I've been bounced upstream a few times
[00:23] <psusi> does anyone here actually notice the difference the famous "one line patch" makes?  aka automatic cgroups scheduling?
[00:25] <yofel> penguin42: for drawing errors I generally blame the graphics driver - I don't have any drawing issues here
[00:27]  * psusi has been working on some patches to parted and the kernel to allow on the fly resize of partitions, like you can do with LVM, only without the need for LVM.. but they won't make it into precise most likely
[00:27] <penguin42> yofel: I'd agree if it wasn't doing it in both a kvm guest via vnc and on the host radeon
[00:27] <penguin42> yofel: And it's specifically on clicking the 'more icons' up arrow on the panel
[00:28] <psusi> then again, maybe it will...
[00:28] <penguin42> (4.7.9x seems a lot more animaty/slide things around)
[00:29] <penguin42> psusi: Oh I think I saw one of yours fly past - what did it do - it was in a revalidate path somewhere wasn't it?
[00:30] <yofel> well, probably since animations are quite easy to do with QML...
[00:30] <psusi> penguin42, eh?  kernel side I just had to add a missing BLKPG ioctl to update the length of the partition... parted side, update it to use that ioctl if the partition is mounted so it can't just be removed and recreated
[00:31] <penguin42> psusi: But fdisk will do resize sometimes won't it?
[00:36] <psusi> penguin42, fdisk can't do anything if anything is mounted
[00:36] <penguin42> psusi: Oh yes, if the partition is mounted it will moan, and in random other times as well :-)
[00:37] <psusi> penguin42, does't just moan... it can't update the partitions, in kernel anyhow... i.e. you can't create a new partition using free space if another partition on the drive is mounted... you have to reboot for the new partition to appear
[00:37] <penguin42> nod
[00:38] <psusi> penguin42, for the last few releases, (g)parted can at least add or resize one partition while another is in use.. I'm fixing it to be able to be able to extend the partition that's actually being used, i.e your root partition
[00:38] <psusi> and even on the fly shrink, if you are using btrfs... ext can only online grow
[00:38] <penguin42> psusi: Yeh, does that mean you can also extend an LVM pv live without creating an extra partition?
[00:39] <psusi> sure
[00:39] <penguin42> That would be pretty useful
[00:39] <psusi> but just using one big partition and btrfs with subvolumes totally blows lvm away
[00:43] <penguin42> I'm curious - why? Because you can allocate more dynamically?
[00:46] <penguin42> yofel: I reported it as KDE bug 290062
[00:47] <psusi> penguin42, well, for instance, with lvm you can migrate a logical volume from one disk to another on the fly, but it has to read/write every sector, not just the used ones... btrfs can do this and it only needs to bother transferring the sectors that are actually in use
[00:48] <psusi> penguin42, similarly, while lvm can make a snapshot, since it has no idea what sectors are in use or not, it has to keep a copy of every sector written to in the snapshot storage, even if the file was subsequently deleted...
[00:48] <penguin42> psusi: Can it not know that from TRIM ?
[00:50] <psusi> penguin42, theoretically it can, sort of... if the fs on the snapshot trims, then it can free a copy it made for the snapshot ( but it does't currently support this )... but it has to assume that all blocks in the origin are in use since it doesn't initially set up an in-use bitmap
[00:51] <psusi> so any writes to make to the origin volume while you have a snapshot of it must be copied and trim can't fix that
[00:51] <psusi> and any writes to the snapshot volume must be copied, even if they weren't already in use on the origin
[00:51] <penguin42> ah yes true
[00:55] <Guest50900> hey guys. what's the disaster recovery plan for compiz being unmaintained?
[00:55] <psusi> Guest50900, eh?
[00:56] <Guest50900> psusi: sam spillaz seems to be pretty down about compiz progress. if he stopped developing compiz, what's the plan?
[00:57] <psusi> Guest50900, what more needs developed?
[00:57] <arand> The obvious one is to make unity a gnome shell extension, I have no idea how the three interact currently though...
[00:58] <Will123> that's better. psusi: i assume something like the compositor would need continuous development all the time!
[00:58] <Will123> arand: it looks like that might be a lot of work
[00:59] <arand> So is maintaining a parallel DE and compositor :þ
[01:00] <Will123> arand: fair point :P
[01:02] <penguin42> Will123: It's not unusual for packages to swap maintainers/developers as one gets less enthusiastic/annoyed/bored - so even if the current developer stops (and I don't know anything about compiz) I'd say it's no big deal
[01:08] <Will123> penguin42: i hope so! it'd be a real shame to throw away all that work
[01:09] <penguin42> Will123: That doesn't happen much with stuff that's popular (unless someone comes along and decides the best thing is to rewrite it all - and then they end up making it worse!)
[01:13] <Will123> penguin42: i assume that's unlikely to happen ahead of 12.04 though!
[01:13] <penguin42> indeed
[01:16] <Will123> i'm planning to use 12.04 as the time when i pounce on all my friends and force them to install ubuntu or they won't get biscuits and cups of tea etc.
[01:19] <penguin42> Will123: Generally it's best to use it for yourself for a while and let the bugs settle out before doing that
[01:20] <Will123> penguin42: yeah, that's why i'm hoping on 12.04. 11.10 was nice but there's still too many annoying things that i think my friends will pounce on
[01:21] <Will123> it's just a shame 12.04 didn't come out in time for christmas, because then you can guilt them with the present approach
[01:21] <penguin42> Will123: hehe - Well, try 12.04 now and see what annoying things you think they are - if they're bugs there is a chance of getting them fixed before release if you shout soon
[01:22] <Will123> penguin42: are there enough changes yet? i was under the impression not much has happened
[01:22] <penguin42> Will123: Well the KDE side has changed quite a bit - Unity doesn't seem to have changed much, but I don't know under the hood
[01:23] <Will123> my biggest gripe is no overlay scrollbars in firefox/XUL but i've asked around on the mozilla team IRC and they're not... slacking off exactly. but there doesn't seem to be any solid plans for getting it done
[01:23] <penguin42> if that's your biggest gripe - then it's hardly massive!
[01:23] <Will123> penguin42: it's not an obvious thing to fix though!"
[01:27] <iceroot> can someone please test this on a ubuntu system (ubuntu-desktop with gnome/unity) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/deja-dup/+bug/908915
[01:27] <iceroot> just install "deja-dup" and see if there are icons for add/remove inside deja-dup
[01:30] <iceroot> i bet there is a missing dependency but i dont want to mess up my system with a gnome/unity install
[01:32] <Will123> I'm also looking for a bug on launchpad to do with the dash static blur not updating properly. Has it been reported by anyone else yet? only it seems like a pretty obvious problem
[01:32] <Will123> the static dash blur will retain the 'wrong' blurred image - if you move workspaces or minus windows, you'll still see the old windows as blurry ghosts in the dash
[01:56] <trism> iceroot: I think the two missing icons there are list-add-symbolic and list-remove-symbolic, which are part of the gnome-icon-theme-symbolic package (maybe should be a dep of elementary-icon-theme?)
[01:56] <trism> iceroot: or lubuntu-icon-theme
[01:57] <iceroot> trism: i will try them both and see if iwill fix the issue
[02:00] <iceroot> trism: gnome-icon-theme-symbolic was it, so deja-dup has a missing dependency on that, i will update the bug, thanks for the info
[02:01] <trism> iceroot: well, deja-dup shouldn't dep on it, but one of the lubuntu icon themes might want to
[02:02] <iceroot> trism: i dont think so
[02:02] <iceroot> trism: i think the bug is in deja-dup because there is something that package needs
[02:03] <iceroot> imo this should not be handled by the lubuntu-package but i will but the lubuntu-team on cc so that they can have a look if they want to fix it
[13:40] <gnomefreak> bzr-notify and unity-support-test are still crashing on login. anyone else seeing this and can point me to a bug on either
[19:19] <soreau> pangolin: You're a fucking piece of shit, you know that?
[20:02] <mellpatr> anyone have use from IKE Shrew Soft VPN Client with ubuntu ?
[20:42] <FernandoTopGear> evening
[20:42] <penguin42> hey
[23:02] <Fudge> howdy penguin42
[23:12] <penguin42> Hey Fudge
[23:13] <Fudge> i failed using unity with gnome orca penguin42
[23:13] <Fudge> :(
[23:14] <penguin42> Fudge: Did it fail as in crash or was it just useless, i.e. no text tags in the right place/not enough information for you
[23:14] <Fudge> the dash launcher top panel etc does not speak or it isnt there. ill have to check fruther into it and see what is running with 'ps' i saw unity lense stuff for music etc
[23:14] <penguin42> let me see if I can find any bugs for it
[23:15] <penguin42> IMHO that should be a high for an LTS
[23:16] <penguin42> or I would if lp wasn't timing out
[23:16] <penguin42> Fudge: Bug 781529
[23:17] <penguin42> hmm that's magnifiers as opposed to readers
[23:18] <penguin42> AlanBell: Ping
[23:18] <Fudge> hmm not sure if its the same
[23:18] <Fudge> ill read it
[23:20] <penguin42> Fudge: Can you file a bug on it, and tell me the number - I'll mark it as high importance ('Has a severe impact on a small portion of Ubuntu users / Impacts accessibility of a core application')
[23:21] <Fudge> what info shoudl i colect first
[23:21] <penguin42> Fudge: If you can run ubuntu-bug gnome-orca   I think that should collect enough info; and describe it - you're in a much better position to describe its usability than me
[23:32] <AlanBell> hi penguin42
[23:32] <penguin42> AlanBell: Bug 762699 is pointed to by bug 781529
[23:33] <AlanBell> yeah, I need to do some more testing on an upstream release in that area, however I don't think it relates to the issue Fudge is experiencing
[23:34] <penguin42> AlanBell: Yeh agreed, he's got reader issues not magnification, but I marked 781529 as High given the Importance rules, but I realise that makes it a bit weird
[23:35] <AlanBell> the indicators are pretty nasty with orca, but are there
[23:36] <Fudge> AlanBell  i figured control alt tabbing through the launcher and to the panel would at least have feadback from orca, unity panel inaccessiblt etc but did not hear anything
[23:38] <AlanBell> unity alt-tab is a bit confusing with eyes, it does application switching and I don't think you can get to the panels and launcher with it
[23:38] <AlanBell> F10 should get you to the top panel with menus and indicators
[23:40] <Fudge> that spoke nothing, i meant control alt tab, on oneiric it does announce, desktop, unity2d launcher, unity2d panel but not on precise
[23:40] <AlanBell> the indicators are mislabled menus, most are just called "image" you might find a "messages image" in there, the network indicator tells me what wifi network I am connected to. The volume indicator is there but is not keyboard controllable.
[23:41] <AlanBell> oh, let me flip to a 2d session, I am using 3d right now
[23:41] <Fudge> yep k
[23:43] <AlanBell> ok, ctrl+alt+tab speaks to me in 2d, I have desktop, unity2d launcher inaccessible, unity2d panel inaccessible
[23:45] <AlanBell> I can't get to the top panel when focus is on orca because orca has no global menu (or menu at all)
[23:46] <AlanBell> if I focus on nautilus then F10 to the menu I can go across to the indicators