[13:33] Alright, who knew about this but didn't say anything? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/ubuntu-powered-tv-to-be-revealed-at-ces/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+d0od+%28OMG%21+Ubuntu%21%29&utm_content=FaceBook [13:37] there is also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16415136 [13:39] hi MrChrisDruif [13:39] Aloha popey ^_^ [13:48] How's it going popey ? Wanted to say something ? ^_^ [13:56] 'lo? [13:57] MrChrisDruif: I guess we'll have to wait and see! [13:57] Ghehe ^_^ [14:16] been reading about your plans for ubuntu-tv [14:17] are you guys aware that a lot of large screens (e.g. Samsung) now come with a built in ARM processor that has direct access to the screen [14:17] example, Samsung DE40 [14:17] I am at least in a way [14:18] these are aimed at digital signage [14:18] but must have a decent gfx chip so they can play 1080p video [14:18] and not too expensive... [14:18] ish.. [14:19] it would solve the problem of having to make a stb and they are distributed worldwide. [14:21] stb? [14:22] set top box. [14:22] I work in TV and would like to help you guys [14:23] these retail for 1000 sterling http://samsunglfd.com/product/feature.do?modelCd=ME46A [14:34] I don't want a stb as well, because I'm one of those minimalist guys ^_^ [14:37] from a purely practical point of view, you don't want to be making, shipping and supporting hardware... [14:38] perhaps I should ask what the aims of ubuntu-tv are [14:43] emulti; if you have a definitive answer to that, I'd like to hear it as well [14:43] emulti: the question is will they run Ubuntu [14:43] not all ARM chips are supported [14:44] * ogra_ thinks the first aim is to have something usable in SW ... and then attract a HW vendor [14:44] or several ;) [14:44] +1 [14:44] a la Android [14:44] no matter if its STb or directly builtin [14:45] getting it baked into a lot of tellys is clearly a great plan, but a STB isn't unreasonable in the meantime [14:45] stb is also going to be a cheaper upgrade than a new smart tv [14:46] right, just have it in both .... and optionally in your phone or so ;) [14:46] certainly not the TV version on your phone [14:46] ? [14:46] so you can attach your phone to a TV dock and use it for ubuntu-tv ;) [14:46] like the atrix? [14:46] oh, I understand you [14:46] yeah [14:46] hmmmm, I do have an HDMI port on my DroidX [14:46] Yeah, but when I buy a TV in a few years time (I hope this one I've got will last me that long) it'll have Ubuntu built-in and not some drunk-ass electronics software smack [14:46] somehow I don't see Ubuntu being ported to DroidX though [14:47] like the atrix .... but i rather envision an atrix that fires up the respective iface for the matching dock [14:47] MrChrisDruif: that would be nice [14:47] yeah [14:47] i.e. a tablet dock for a tablet unity [14:47] unplug the phone, carry on watching media on the move [14:47] walk into a big-box store and see Ubuntu TVs mounted on the display wall [14:47] plug it back in, get the TV UI [14:47] laptop dock for normal unity .... tv dock for tv unity [14:47] I don't see why not [14:47] On a tablet? [14:48] or similar dock, but desktop unity kicks in if a keyboard is plugged in [14:48] they're already doing a lot of work on detecting a device formfactor based on resolution and other display information [14:48] yeah, something like that [14:48] so one dock with usb and hdmi is all thats needed [14:48] (my desktop display has HDMI just like my TV) [14:48] popey: you writing all this down? [14:48] me!? [14:48] haha [14:48] its saturday ! [14:48] you're the one with the @ in front of you nick [14:48] he's not on duty [14:49] he's always on duty [14:49] ;) [14:49] lol [14:49] heh [14:49] unless you're going to suggest that Canonical employees hang out here on their days off just because they're super excited about these new product developments [14:50] * ogra_ does [14:50] ogra_; channel is logged ^_^ [14:51] * MrChrisDruif says "Keep it up guys!" I'll be back in a bit after some shopping [14:51] * ogra_ also needs to go and care for his car so i can drive to the sprint tomorrow [14:52] I just hope this concept results in a real product [14:52] ++ [14:52] the guys at CES have their work cut out [14:55] i am _so_ excited by this. [15:00] Me too [18:35] Ubuntu-TV at CES? [18:35] if that's true, kinda makes me want to hang out in this channel less [18:36] Ghehe, why so tgm4883 ? [18:37] MrChrisDruif, if they are showing off something at CES, it isn't hardware (technically it is but listen) it's the software side. [18:37] If they are showing it off at this CES, it's going to try and hit market late this year [18:37] which means most decisions for this have already been made [18:38] if that is the case, since almost zero has been said in this channel from the canonical side (and zero about an actual product), that means it's all been done in secret (which would appear to be canonical's MO on these types of projects) [18:38] and if all that is true, it means that we are wasting out time in this channel [18:38] MO? [18:39] method of operation [18:39] it's how they do things [18:39] Ah, gotcha [18:39] Do I think it's cool? Yes. Do I think it would be awesome to have a Ubuntu-TV product? Yes. [18:40] But all that adds up to us doing the work we've done in this channel with zero canonical direction for absolutely nothing [18:41] Yeah, that topic has been raised before on this channel [18:41] Which yes, is our own fault for trying to get the ball rolling when we didn't see anything happening, but is also Canonical's fault for making a ubuntu-tv channel and leading us along when they were doing everything in secret [18:43] Will *promised* and *promised* things would turn for the better, but I've not seen any action indicating he was telling the truth "Only talk the talk if you can walk the walk" [18:43] tgm4883: they are showing off a prototype, not a market ready product [18:43] Indeed, there should be less secrecy from Canonical [18:43] I hope for everyone in here that it isn't a TV at CES, but it's CES, so it's either a TV, Tablet, or Phone [18:44] mhall119, they aren't showing off hardware, they are showing off software [18:44] tgm4883: yes, but not market-ready software [18:44] only prototype software [18:45] mhall119, it's CES, so it's a little more than prototype. Even if it is only a prototype, that means they have been developing it in secret, which brings me back to "what are we doing here then?" [18:46] tgm4883: we're thinking about what could be, and what we would want to have, in an Ubuntu TV [18:46] mhall119, seems like a lot of effort on our part for something we have no say in [18:46] How can they have any software to show in the first place? [18:47] MrChrisDruif: well they have Ubuntu and Unity already [18:47] mhall119, they aren't showing just a box running unity connected to a TV [18:47] Heck, they had that at UDS [18:47] it ran the schedule :) [18:48] yeah...I know, that was my code [18:48] Yes, but it's Consumer Electronics Show, not Consumer Software Show... [18:48] lots of software gets shown there [18:48] heck, Microsoft is one of their biggest attendees [18:49] yep [18:49] well, not after this year [18:49] they'll likely still be one of the biggest [18:50] tgm4883: sorry to hear you're feeling like that [18:50] mhall119, are you @canonical [18:50] I am now, I wasn't when i started hacking on summit code though [18:50] from what I can see it's an unfinished concept that's being shown at CES [18:50] popey, it seriously feels like we've been mislead a bit here [18:51] tgm4883: I understand it feels that way [18:51] I don't understand the point of this channel if it's an internal project [18:51] that wasnt the intention [18:51] and i don't think it's an 'internal project' [18:51] tgm4883: it's not an internal project, there isn't even an official Ubuntu TV team that I'm aware of [18:51] there isnt [18:51] popey, oh, there where can I do a BZR PULL? [18:52] then* [18:52] tgm4883: I can ask if it's in bzr somewhere [18:52] but the main people working on it will be at CES, so I probably won't have an answer this week [18:52] mhall119, I would love an answer [18:53] I have already asked if what has been made can be made public [18:53] as in, code [18:53] I would too, I want to hack on it as much as you do, trust me [18:53] popey, I know it probably wasn't the intention to mislead people, but from an outside POV, if this stays non-public it would seem to be business as usual [18:54] yeah, i can see that tgm4883 [18:54] tgm4883: if it makes you feel any better, you know just about as much about it as I do [18:54] and you didn't learn about it all that long after I did [18:54] mhall119, that doesn't really make me feel that much better [18:54] this isn't a major company-wide project [18:55] as I understand it, there is a concept which has been created to show off to potential hardware partners. [18:55] that just means that it wasn't an accident that we didn't know, that it is more secret [18:55] i don't believe much in the way of code exists [18:55] it's more of a skunk-works by a small number of people who wanted to make something that would interest manufacturers [18:55] if there is any code, it's probably all throw-away anyway [18:55] * tgm4883 shrugs [18:55] but my understanding is that what coder there is, will get either made available as a separate branch, or will be rolled into standard unity [18:56] popey, so it's part of Unity then [18:56] tgm4883: we'll know more after CES, both of us [18:56] popey, cause that was a major discussion we've had in this channel multiple times [18:56] mhall119, agree, I just don't want to be wasting my time [18:56] i dont know if 'its part of unity' is something i can answer [18:57] it will be interesting to see what they show, and whether they are showing the best they could have achieved if they had collaborated more [18:57] popey, don't, I don't want to get you in trouble [18:57] tgm4883: I don't think I'm wasting *my* time here, and this isn't part of my @canonical job [18:57] not for that reason tgm4883 [18:57] i just dont know ☺ [18:57] * popey is not a programmer [18:58] AlanBell: I get the feeling it's a closer to a non-working demo just to see if anybody is interested in the *idea* of Ubuntu/Unity on a TV [18:58] AlanBell; +1 [18:58] mhall119, popey, it's fine if it's a secret internal project. I just want to be clear on that. If it's not, great, I'll stick around and contribute. If it is, I'll leave and go back to the mythbuntu channel and hack on that code [18:59] it is my understanding that it is not intended to be a secret internal project [18:59] tgm4883: there should be a more official announcement at or after CES about where the project is going [18:59] however right now yeah, there was some secrecy behind _this_ concept [18:59] popey, yes there was [18:59] mhall119, I hope it's soon, otherwise I'll just theme XBMC to look like unity, ship it with Mythbuntu and beat you guys to the punch ;) [19:00] popey has a point, "Ubuntu on a TV" isn't a secret project, "Ubuntu concept prototype at CES" kind of was though [19:00] sure, which is fine [19:00] but the total lack of direction here is curious [19:00] tgm4883: man if you can do that, do it! You'll make a lot of people happy [19:00] right let me rephrase then [19:00] like xbmc vs myth tv vs QML [19:00] at this point, Ubuntu-TV is closed-source [19:01] and that is bad [19:01] Again, how can they have any kind of concept ready without community involvement? [19:01] no, at this point it's vapor-ware [19:01] it's an idea [19:01] mhall119, unless they are showing off a video at CES, it's not truely vaporware [19:01] ARM or Intel? [19:01] tgm4883: it's close enough, an animated mockup, even an interactive mockup, but still just a mockup [19:02] * MrChrisDruif hopes in a way it's just a vid with features we hope to include [19:02] mhall119, what part of that do you want? XBMC shipping on mythbuntu, or XBMC themed like Unity? [19:02] we have been told the target output resolution is 1920x1080, but pretty much nothing beyond that as parameters to target [19:02] AlanBell, I'd guess ARM [19:02] tgm4883: I don't have an HTPC anyway, so I'm not your target audience, but I'm sure you'll get a lot of interest doing either [19:02] quad-hd ^_^ [19:02] based on the way TV's are going internally and also Canonical's investment in Linaro [19:02] AlanBell: oh? I hadn't heard of a target resolution [19:03] tgm4883: yeah, but we don't know [19:03] that does make sense [19:03] that's good to know [19:03] mhall119, possibly, we have a lot of interest in MythTV on Ubuntu too [19:03] I hadn't heard of a target resolution either, but 1920x1080 makes sense otherwise we're wasting our time [19:03] if it is ARM, is there an openGL GPU? [19:03] if it's ARM, I hope it's something newer/more powerful than what they were using at UDS [19:04] the hardware doesnt exist yet [19:04] AlanBell: some SoC support it, there's also Unity2d which I think has better hardware acceleration on ARM [19:04] we dont have a 'set top box' or a 'smart tv' yet [19:04] popey, I hope that isn't 100% true [19:04] no, but normally there would be a power budget for the hardware [19:04] which bit? [19:04] we have no hardware vendors onside that I'm aware of [19:04] that means that there is no plan to allow people to install this on their own hardware ;) [19:04] as in "we are targetting an atom class intel chipset" [19:04] i have seen no hardware devices that are specifically for ubuntu tv [19:04] or "we are targetting a core i7" [19:05] tgm4883: i didnt say that at all [19:05] just to be clear [19:05] and i didnt imply that either [19:05] popey, I know, you don't know [19:05] no [19:05] err [19:05] i do know [19:05] again, this is not going to be much more than a mockup, so the hardware they use at CES isn't necessarily goiong to resemble target hardware in any way [19:05] i know we dont have a hardware device right now [19:05] this is kinda the point of going to CES [19:05] I see [19:05] well you implied it then, if the hardware doesn't exist yet, that means we can't install it on custom hardware [19:05] it may just be a PC or laptop with an HDMI out, I don't know [19:06] which means you aren't releasing an ISO [19:06] no [19:06] i did not imply that [19:06] but I see what you are getting at [19:06] dont read into what I am saying [19:06] there is no hardware that you are shipping on [19:06] or even hardware that you have thought about [19:06] we have nothing to ship [19:06] tgm4883: it is way way early for that [19:06] or even hardware that you have designed for [19:06] why would we have hardware? [19:06] popey: so they can give me one ;) [19:07] oh I'm sure they've looked at various devices [19:07] and evaluated whats on the market [19:07] I am surprised that the openGL or not openGL question is unanswerable though [19:07] but we haven't got a chosen / blessed platform [19:07] AlanBell: Unity doesn't care though, 3d for opengl, 2d otherwise [19:07] for a tv, video decoding will be more important than 3d effects [19:07] * popey imagines a 3d cube on his telly [19:07] * popey shudders [19:08] speaking of which, I hear Linaro is doing well on that front [19:08] depends, zoom out to see two channels playing perhaps [19:08] video decoding, not spinnig cubes on the telly [19:08] each channel on the face of a cube [19:08] channel changing effects could be pretty cool with openGL [19:08] yeah, I guess [19:08] AlanBell: ARM chips have hardware acceleration for different things like that, even if it's not OpenGL [19:09] linaro had 1080p big buck bunny playing at UDS rather nicely [19:09] I think Unity2D is preferred on ARM because QT supports non-opengl acceleration, while compiz is only opengl [19:10] tgm4883: yeah, but the rest of the interface felt sluggish [19:10] last I tried it anyway [19:10] which was in UDS-O, so it may be way better now [19:13] alright, so we still don't really know anything. And the people in this channel don't know/can't say anything either. I'll agree to put down the pitchfork and torch until after CES [19:13] heh [19:13] * popey hugs tgm4883 [19:13] * tgm4883 picks up the pitchfork again [19:14] stand back! You're British! [19:14] :D [19:15] I like to think that everyone in this channel is not british except for popey, who is the token British guy [19:15] wrong [19:16] * MrChrisDruif understands that no-one can say anything (even if they know) but that just baffles me in terms how that mock-up even became to be without the community [19:16] AlanBell, no, you are... uh..... English [19:16] ^_^ [19:17] MrChrisDruif: if it looks like this it will be OK http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pages/launcher.png [19:17] MrChrisDruif, I have a feeling we were involved to the point they took ideas from the feature list we made [19:17] MrChrisDruif: have you seen the Launcher tester they just released? [19:17] Looks familiar...designer AlanBell ;-) [19:18] complete with "BFB"! [19:18] AlanBell: I hope the have nicer looking hardware than that... [19:18] popey, I'm alittle surprised Daviey doesn't hang out in this channel with the work he does for Mythbuntu [19:18] unrelated question. What is this running? -> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57717000/jpg/_57717084_ubuntuwebbook3.jpg [19:18] AlanBell: is that the vodaphone one? [19:19] probably [19:19] in that case, I heard it's 10.?? with a backport of Unity [19:19] it is in the CES article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16415136 [19:19] yeah, I have no idea where they got that image from, or what it is [19:19] but those 8 dash icons look like they might actually be useful to someone! [19:20] it looks like the 11.04 Unity [19:20] can't be unity :) [19:20] the CoF button is in teh top panel [19:21] yes, and the search field is on a grey bar it seems [19:23] 11.04 with Faenza icon theme? [19:26] tgm4883: daviey is busy with server stuff these days [19:29] that pic looks like a marketing one, not a real image [20:03] grumbling asside I do think it is awesome that Canonical is going to be showing off stuff at CES, it is that kind of thing that sets Ubuntu aside from the other distros [20:13] AlanBell: also awesome that the BBC is talking about Canonical and Ubuntu [20:15] yeah, and in the context of Canonical being a representative of UK industry going to CES which is interesting for the political dynamics as well [21:08] As I understand it; Ubuntu isn't a distro but a platform? [21:32] opened ... let the chat commence :) [21:37] Commence your chatting [21:56] hah [21:56] MrChrisDruif: ubuntu is a project, product, distro, and platform [21:56] MrChrisDruif, :: ok so we were talking about an Ubuntu box for hw consideration .... [21:56] Alright, a bit of everything [21:57] mcbaine1; do you read any articles about Ubuntu? [21:57] http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/ubuntu-powered-tv-to-be-revealed-at-ces/ [21:57] yes i read the omgubuntu tv article .. [21:58] They'll be showing some kind of "mock-up" apparently over there at the CES [21:58] not a mock-up, a 'concept' ☺ [21:58] * mcbaine1 thnks this has many missed opourtunities - about it [21:58] oh? [21:59] popey; a "working" mock-up [21:59] heh [21:59] ;-) [21:59] Anyhow.. [22:00] So I think this project is on hold till that has happened. We hope for an official announcement during or right after CES for some direction we'll be heading [22:00] there will absolutely be an official announcement [22:00] * mcbaine1 thnks that Canonical is now aligning itself with the expensive purchases arena and does not allow for mobility etc.. [22:01] mobility in what sense? [22:01] you canot carry around a 40" tv ... [22:02] what if you could install the TV interface on a laptop? [22:03] whereas a PVR is accessible for business trips/schools/and a quick nip around to your friends... [22:03] mcbaine1: but you can sync your data between your 40" tv, 15" laptop, and 4" phone [22:04] or 7" tabplet [22:04] tablet [22:04] and car, the ivi stuff comes [22:04] yeah, I'd love that, record something at home, take it on the train to work and watch it there, then when i get home carry on watching on the tv [22:04] 8" as well mhall119 ? [22:04] ;-) [22:04] Canonical is becoming the Sony of the software world with little appreciation for small based power models and 3.5"hard-disk capacity PVR's etc... [22:04] MrChrisDruif: no, never 8", NEVER! [22:05] mcbaine1: you're making assumptions here [22:05] mcbaine1: how's that? They're still investing in Linaro and working on power consumption, etc [22:05] which is understandable given the concept hasn't been shown yet ☺ [22:05] ARM is a key part of the Ubuntu story [22:06] I believe i am free to express suggestions and criticisms .. this isn't a proprietory sw based company is it ?? Anyway... [22:06] =| [22:07] mcbaine1: you're free to be wrong, yes, and we're free to correct you [22:07] mcbaine1; next release will (among other polishes) be about power usage [22:07] It will take ARM 4 years to create a 3.2GHz chip to power Ubuntu media-centers .. but as this is the'right' thing to do they probably will not do it. [22:08] **they = Ubuntu ,... [22:08] ubuntu is the community [22:09] you dont need 3.2GHz to power a media centre [22:09] so you're just kind of insulting volunteers for not doing enough [22:10] it's a hw issue I'm afraid .. stop being negitive in your thinking... I'm hgaving an open conversation about the future of Ubuntu-PVR devices which will 'top' Ubuntu -tv. [22:11] The issue is not how to get Ubuntu on to the TV, but how to cable a box (media-center) to a television with a 3TB hdd. [22:13] MrChrisDruif, :: comments so far ?? [22:14] Well...your comments can be viewed as offensive. It seems your already having your ideas set, which isn't always a good thing. [22:15] What are your ideas .. plz... [22:16] FYI .. I haven't insulted/offended anyone for months to my knowledge.. no-one has explained why anyways.. [22:16] Secondly, I don't agree with everything you say (I think ARM will produce within 4 year 3.2GHz if needed) and I think it's best to wait on what Canonical will present on CES [22:17] we dont need 3.2GHz for Ubuntu TV [22:17] we don't even need 2GHz for it [22:17] we can run Ubuntu on ARM, this is well proven, and ARM devices are already capable of 1080p playback [22:18] fine.. the hw issue is secondary i agree.. but Canonical isn't master of the product/sw .. What TV company is it going with ?? [22:18] the information that we even had a product concept was released today [22:19] we're going to CES next week to look for hardware partners [22:19] can't you do that via email ?? [22:20] That's not really how the corporate world works [22:20] not if they actually *want* a partner [22:21] CES is like speed dating for technology companies [22:21] heh [22:22] i thnk its contrieved , at best .. the project needs a lab for initial hw testing... agree ? [22:23] we already have experience with what hardware is capable of [22:24] there's also a pretty big community of people who already want something like Ubuntu TV on a low power, small form factor device. [22:24] e.g... weblinks of this ?? [22:24] some of those people already have the devices, and just need the hardware enablement doing [22:25] web links of what? [22:25] "people who already want something like Ubuntu TV on a low power, small form factor device." [22:25] i talk to people in the real world who want this [22:26] i see no evidence of this online in the community thou... [22:27] you're looking in the wrong places ☺ [22:29] popey :: plz note that im am in a team/family that owns the biggest television distribution company in the country so weblinks is a good way to 'spread the word' .. also good 4 business. [22:32] * mcbaine1 is bemused over the channel's lack of interest in it's main application at this time.. [22:47] mcbaine1: it isn't a lack of interest, it is a lack of information. There is nothing to see until CES really [22:55] mcbaine1: remember that the very idea of an "Ubuntu TV" was only announced 2 months ago [22:59] AlanBell, mhull119 :: I thought this was the place to offer up conceptions about the future of the project.... ? [23:01] ** mhall119 ... ?? [23:01] sure, and we have put forward a number of concepts. They have been processed, jumbled about, built upon and we wait to see what happens next at CES [23:01] which is Monday, so not long to wait [23:01] AlanBell, how does that help me (here) with the discussion.. ?? [23:02] mcbaine1: have you seen the mockups that have already been made? [23:02] yes [23:02] mhall119, no .. plz be specific.. [23:02] we've also had numerous discussion in this channel in the last month or so [23:02] I made one (kinda) [23:02] specific about what? [23:02] AlanBell made the grand-daddy of them all [23:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs [23:03] mockups ^^ [23:03] oening.. [23:03] **opening.. [23:05] * mcbaine1 thnks http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/daniel/ is the only serious one ... reading rest.. [23:06] my one isn't serious, it was just to introduce the framework I had made for doing the storyboard mockups [23:07] I kind of made the telly on which to put the designs [23:08] mcbaine1: they are all serious ones, please don't belittle other people's efforts [23:08] Alan bell :: I remember this stage a decade ago .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiF8YVmBOxg [23:10] mhall119, :: plz stopp taking criticism so sensitively.. I'm being CONstructive not destructive... ! [23:10] there are interesting concepts on all the mockups that could be cherry picked [23:13] there is nothing "CONstructive" about calling the majority of those mockups non-serious [23:13] all I'm asking for is that you be respectful to the rest of the community [23:14] I would do the same if somebody came in here and called your contributions non-serious [23:20] mhall119, :: perhaps' serious' was a little too misunderstanding I meant art-realistic. [23:21] they are concept sketches, not finished designs [23:22] mine was deliberately a bit scrappy, I wanted people to think they could do better [23:22] sadly the press picked it up and misunderstood that part [23:22] did u use inkscape ?? [23:23] Pencil [23:23] it's a really easy way to build mockups [23:23] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil [23:23] k.. not familiar with that perhaps that's why .. [23:27] k installed pencil.. but its for the children of gsoc really.. me thnks. [23:28] it's the best mockup tool I've found [23:29] even wrong about it almost a year ago: http://mhall119.com/2011/04/pencil-for-easy-ui-mockups/ [23:29] do you know of a better one? [23:30] Inkscape could make nicer visuals, sure, but it takes a lot longer to make a mockup in it than in Pencil [23:39] mhall119, :: TWISI pecil is southpark , Inkscape is used 4 humble indie bundle for example.. (h.i.b. =£1m+ each time) [23:40] mcbaine1: it is a sketching tool, not an art tool [23:41] mcbaine1: yeah, you wouldn't develop promo art in Pencil [23:41] art is sketching but im not getting semantic about it... well done 4 your tries... :) [23:42] but for brainstorming layout and functionality, it's much simpler than Inkscape [23:43] brainstorming.. yes ... functionality no... use sketchup on wine ...;) [23:43] which is non-free software [23:43] got a link for that? [23:43] and doesn't do storyboarding [23:44]