[00:00] <cgriff> hamitron: I'm not one who can watch sports not even exciting stuff like rallying however if you were to give me a rally course and car, I'd probably be indebted to you forever
[00:01] <hamitron> same
[00:01] <hamitron> :)
[00:01] <hamitron> nearest I can get is simulations/games online
[00:01] <hamitron> :/
[00:02] <gordonjcp> never really got into watching sports
[00:03] <cgriff> I will admit that I will watch an international game of rugby but other than that I can't stand watching them. I'd play games about them either IRL or virtually though
[00:03] <ali1234> exciting... like rallying... wat?
[00:04] <ali1234> even when they crash... it's boring
[00:04] <cgriff> ali1234: You would honestly turn down the chance to have a day on a rally course?
[00:04] <ali1234> well i can;t drive so there wouldn't be much point
[00:06] <gord> i'm sure it would be fun up until the point where you die
[00:06] <ali1234> fun until the first bend
[00:06] <ali1234> then the car is upside down
[00:07] <cgriff> I'd rather die in a ball of flames doing something fun than in a bed barely able to move to be fair. My brother's teh same
[00:07] <AlanBell> is there a third option?
[00:08] <cgriff> Radiation poisoning ;)?
[00:09] <AlanBell> anyhow, speaking of bed, night all o/
[00:09] <cgriff> Night \o
[00:11] <gord> https://developer.ubuntu.com/2012/01/top-10-ubuntu-software-centre-app-downloads-for-december-2011/ neat
[00:13] <Azelphur> Anyone know anything like gobby that doesn't suck?
[00:15] <hamitron> Crossover Games is free?
[00:17] <hamitron> bah, trial doesn't count as "free"
[00:17] <hamitron> :/
[01:45] <ejos> Is there any tftp server that works with the virtualbox pxe boot client
[02:59] <ball> Is there any simple video editing software that works with Ubuntu? Nothing flashy, I'd just like to add a title at the beginning and perhaps prune out the odd section.
[05:37]  * ball gives up and goes to bed.
[07:41] <popey> Morning!
[07:41] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:45] <popey> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/372040/ubuntu-tv-unveiled  \o/
[07:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nice popey
[07:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Is it Myth in the backend or completely new code?
[07:47] <popey> its a concept ☺
[07:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh.
[07:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> "its a concept" == "No backend as yet" then.
[07:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Lenovo 55" TV with Android http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/01/lenovo-puts-android-4-on-55-inch-tv-and-10-inch-tablet.ars
[07:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> "These products are all immediately available in China"
[08:09] <DJones> Morning
[08:18] <dwatkins> hiya
[08:42] <daubers> Morning
[08:42] <christel> morning beauties
[08:43] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:43] <AlanBell> morning
[08:43] <popey> yes
[08:47] <danfish> MartijnVdS: Ray
[08:47] <daubers> Noticed netflix is now available in the UK
[08:48]  * daubers is very tempted
[08:48] <MartijnVdS> danfish: ?
[08:48] <danfish> MartijnVdS: sorry - mistype!
[08:48] <danfish> morning btw
[08:54] <christel> ooo
[08:56] <MartijnVdS> Uh oh.. there's going to be chaos: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jan/09/mps-alcohol-drinking-guidelines
[08:59] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: when the House of Commons bars are closed 2 days per week people might pay attention to that
[09:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> A good friend of mine happens to be my GP too. He has recommended 21 units a day ever since I have known him. He's always in my local and is looking fine on it too ;-)
[09:01] <MartijnVdS> :)
[09:07] <dwatkins> 21 units would probably make me fall over.
[09:08] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: spread over the day, or at once? :)
[09:08] <dwatkins> heh, even if just during a single evening.
[09:09] <dwatkins> I used to be able to handle 5 pints in a night, any more and I'd just fail to be able to see.
[09:12] <christel> TheOpenSourcerer: is your gp that looney doctor at the rugby club by any chance?
[09:12] <christel> :P
[09:12] <dwatkins> perhaps he part owns the pub...
[09:14] <MartijnVdS> Hubert J. Farnsworth?
[09:15] <christel> (he is probably not a loon, but when i ran out of tramadol after surgery he prescribed me 2 months worth instead of a few days.. "just in case")
[09:15] <christel> i like him, but he is not my regular gp
[09:15] <MartijnVdS> hmm opioids
[09:16] <christel> tramadol was rather fun i must admit
[09:58] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:59] <bigcalm> TheOpenSourcerer: the backend is a myth
[09:59] <bigcalm> That's enough scroll back for me
[10:00] <oimon> bigcalm: anything good on the scrollback :P
[10:01] <bigcalm> That's all I could be amused by
[10:05] <popey> :D
[10:06] <Laney> good morning
[10:06] <Laney> how's .hu popey?
[10:06] <popey> fun
[10:06] <Laney> yeah that hotel is nice, and has decent enough pubs next door
[10:09] <Laney> why did my home connection choose today to go down :(
[10:10] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:10] <jussi> czajkowski: heya! hows the back?
[10:10] <dwatkins> Laney: mine goes down once an hour if I'm watching streaming media online :-/
[10:11] <JamesTait> Happy Monday, everyone! :D
[10:11] <czajkowski> jussi: good thanks
[10:11] <czajkowski> jussi: hows things your end ?
[10:11] <jussi> czajkowski: no news :/
[10:12] <czajkowski> jussi: patiences
[10:12] <Laney> I always have an SSH session to my home machine
[10:12] <jussi> czajkowski: tell that to Sari
[10:12] <Laney> might have to nip back at lunch and poke it
[10:12] <dwatkins> Laney: dyndns?
[10:12] <oimon> time for change of /topic to ubuntu tv/CES?
[10:13] <dwatkins> sorry, I mean "do you use dyndns in order to know the IP address?"
[10:13] <Laney> "static" ip
[10:13] <Laney> so i just have a record in my domain
[10:13] <dwatkins> heh, I used to have a fairly static IP with NTL
[10:23] <AlanBell> there is an #ubuntu-tv IRC channel for those wanting to discuss/contribute to that
[10:24] <AlanBell> Laney: it is slightly disturbing when you are out and your home stops responding to pings isn't it!
[10:24] <Laney> yeah it is rather concerning :(
[10:31] <shauno> I'm not sure how NTL 'invert' my IP address here.  if I replace my router, my IP changes.  if I put the old router back, I get the old IP back
[10:31] <BigRedS> Hah, the year I spent on Virgin put me off monitoring the connection to home
[10:31] <shauno> er, 'invent'
[10:31] <BigRedS> shauno: dhcp leases are indexed by mac address
[10:32] <shauno> yeah, but there was 3 or 4 months before I put the old router back
[10:32] <BigRedS> yeah, leases can be incredibly long. There's no reason for them not to be now that most connections are always-on
[10:42] <JGJones> Greetings all - is it just me or is the Netflix sign up page not allowing one to sign up on Ubuntu?
[10:46] <dwatkins> JGJones: I was just wondering about signing up for that (witout using facebook)
[10:47] <JGJones> Apparently there's an "sign up with your email" link if not using Facebook. I don't have a facebook account but even then I can't see a way to sign up with either method on Ubuntu
[10:47] <dwatkins> I'm currently looking for that link
[10:47] <dwatkins> Perhaps it doesn't work from the RoI
[10:47] <JGJones> dwatkins, I've tried Opera, Chrome and Firefox -  link doesn't show (it's in the source though)
[10:48] <JGJones> dwatkins, so am wondering if it's being blocked from showing up on non-Windows platform?
[10:48] <oimon> try ua switcher?
[10:49] <dwatkins> JGJones: perhaps
[10:49] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:50] <dwatkins> hi brobostigon
[10:50] <brobostigon> hi dwatkins
[10:50] <JGJones> oh wait...
[10:51] <JGJones> whoops seem to be my fault...
[10:51] <JGJones> /etc/hosts - facebook.com 127.0.0.1
[10:51] <dwatkins> I can't see a link to avoid facebook.
[10:51] <oimon> lol
[10:51] <dwatkins> lol nice :)
[10:54] <shauno> I just signed up with facebook .. you can unlink it again from your user prefs after signup
[10:54] <JGJones> dwatkins, after removing the facebook.com in my /etc/hosts - I now see the sign up...below the Facebook login part - there's an "sign up with a email" below the facebook login
[10:55] <JGJones> but sign up by email is via facebook? does that mean Facebook'll automatically make an account on my behalf??
[10:55] <dwatkins> JGJones: I guess I'd best setup my proxy server - my internet access goes through Dublin
[10:55] <shauno> it works from here, and I'm in the republic
[10:55] <dwatkins> hmm
[10:55]  * dwatkins tries ff
[10:56]  * daubers will need to borrow a long cat6 this evening to try netflix
[10:57] <dwatkins> interesting, Chrome fails to show me this, but Firefox shows it fine
[10:58] <shauno> I kinda want to go down the beach & take pictures of helicopters (yes, I'm a nerd), but I'm not sure how polite that is when they're out there looking for floaters
[10:58] <oimon> i wonder how long before we'll all need fake facebook accounts to sign up for stuff?
[10:59] <daubers> They do say that if you're not signed into facebook it should work on their twitter stream
[10:59] <JGJones> for UK...probably not long...over 30 millions accounts (just over 50% of population number)
[11:00] <oimon> although there are 20 million cats+dogs in the uk, they must account for a lot of accounts
[11:00] <JGJones> There is an email sign up link - but the fact that it doesn't show until I unblocked facebook is annoying. And I'll better not be getting emails from facebook after this.
[11:00] <oimon> i know some dogs on facebook. all of their friends are dogs too
[11:02] <davmor2> morning all
[11:02]  * davmor2 hands czajkowski a soothing cup of Tea
[11:04] <shauno> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23042/Screen%20Shot%202012-01-09%20at%2011.02.10.png   that's as far as I got with netflix :/
[11:04] <oimon> shauno: on apple or linux?
[11:05] <shauno> on apple
[11:06] <bigcalm> Call the number?
[11:06] <shauno> heh, I'm not callin the US for tech support
[11:08] <oimon> http://www.parisvega.com/how-to-fix-the-netflix-drm-error-n8151-in-google-chrome-for-mac/ ?
[11:08] <oimon> they are talking about silverlight on that page
[11:08] <oimon> netflix is silverlight too?
[11:09] <JGJones> Yeah
[11:09] <JGJones> hence no simple solution to play it on Ubuntu if any.
[11:10] <czajkowski> davmor2: ello
[11:11] <davmor2> czajkowski: how you doing kiddo saw you tweets
[11:12] <shauno> I Didn't realise I had silverlight installed; but reinstalling it does fix that, thanks
[11:13] <oimon> :D
[11:13] <oimon> now you realise there is nothing to watch
[11:14] <JGJones> I'm mainly checking it out for subtitles support
[11:14] <shauno> yeah.  very little european cinema, but a metric *bleep*tonne of chinese films
[11:14] <shauno> hopefully they're still signing providers up
[11:15] <JGJones> Lovefilm provide 0% subtitling with their steaming videos. According to Equality Act, it's not legal to do that, but then Lovefilm seem to be unable to get the licences required in order to show the subtitles while steaming(!)
[11:15] <czajkowski> davmor2: not bad thanks
[11:17] <bigcalm> Shall this be a subway Monday?
[11:23] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq_WaOLjdyQ
[11:23] <oimon> http://www.ubuntu.com/tv now has a video
[11:23] <popey> http://ubuntu.com/tv
[11:23] <popey> :D
[11:23] <oimon> lol
[11:24] <shauno> dwatkins: from what I'm reading, the email link only shows up if you're not signed into facebook, which would explain your disparity between browers
[11:25] <oimon> just selected the HD version and fullscreened it on my big monitor. looks nice
[11:27] <popey> the video doesn't do it justice, its a lot smoother in real life
[11:28] <dwatkins> shauno: aha, thanks :)
[11:29] <oimon> i hope this gets into a freeview PVR
[11:29] <dwatkins> oimon: it's available for the PS3
[11:29] <oimon> dwatkins: i'm talking bout ubuntu tv, what u talking bout? netflix?
[11:31] <oimon> popey: what hardware running on? ARM?
[11:32] <popey> we have x86 and arm images
[11:32] <dwatkins> oimon: oh sorry yes
[11:35] <gordonjcp> popey: for Ubuntu TV?
[11:36] <bigcalm> That was a nice video at 1080p full screen
[11:36] <bigcalm> Was hoping it was going to look more like AlanBell's mockups though
[11:38] <davmor2> popey: fancy not knowing that the tv site was up ;)
[11:43] <popey> bigcalm: we used big buck bunny ☺
[11:44] <davmor2> bigcalm: There's no pleasing some people though :P
[11:45] <bigcalm> popey: that did amuse me :P
[11:45] <bigcalm> davmor2: too right
[11:45] <Laney> what does it use for broadcast tv? mythtv?
[11:47] <popey> not decided yet
[11:47] <Laney> ah
[11:47] <Laney> didn't know how much of it was a mock up
[11:47] <Laney> (all?)
[11:48] <shauno> opening with 'no more boxes / no more wires' is an odd one; are they looking at embedding this in the set itself? (rather than an stb)
[11:48] <Laney> "In a TV." implies so
[11:48] <bigcalm> Yes
[11:48] <Laney> that's the impression I always had tbh
[11:48] <oimon> companies like humax are already using linux in their pvr's. could be a good step for them to go ubuntu
[11:49] <shauno> hm. that's a shame :/  interesting, but ..
[11:49] <bigcalm> Which is going to be interesting for those who want to continue using cable and/or satellite
[11:50] <Laney> why would it be incompatible with that?
[11:50] <oimon> the advatage of a separate  freeview pvr is that it can be kept while the telly is upgraded..which happens a lot
[11:50] <bigcalm> Laney: didn't say it would be, but you'd still have more wires and remotes :)
[11:51] <shauno> oimon: or the other way around - I don't replace my TV outside of complete neccessity
[11:52] <bigcalm> Indeed
[11:52] <bigcalm> Happy with the one I have, spent enough on it
[11:52] <bigcalm> I'm sure there'll be a stb version
[11:53] <shauno> the only reason my telly's as young (5 years) as it is, was that it would have been complete insanity trying to bring my old one with my from the US
[11:53] <danfish> the music in that video - a black eyed peas remix - who's the budding DJ at canonical then ;)
[11:53] <bigcalm> For instance, I don't use my TV's remote for anything other than changing the source input. When watching VM cable, _everything_ is done though their 1 remote
[11:55] <shauno> that said, I'd be really tempted if half the rumours about apple entering the market turn out to be close
[11:56] <popey> the demo is running on commodity hardware
[11:56] <popey> (a revo)
[11:57] <dwatkins> I thought that was what AppleTV was all about.
[11:57] <popey> so potentially you could run it on a set top box
[11:58] <shauno> the appletv is basically an ipod with a hdmi port.  they've got all the pieces in place to do much better
[11:59] <bigcalm> I forgot. Today cannot be a subway Monday. Returning to my daily wii fit workout and not eating
[11:59] <bigcalm> T -3mins to self torture
[12:05] <oimon> thursday is best subway day
[12:05] <oimon> cheap BMT
[12:06] <popey> ☺
[12:06] <bigcalm> I'm a sucker for the Chicken Pizziola(sp?)
[12:06] <popey> oooh, lunchtime!
[12:06] <bigcalm> Torture time :(
[12:08] <bigcalm> RackSpace -> Bytemark @ 10.9MB/s :)
[12:10] <shauno> anyone using dropbox headless, know how to set up 'selective sync' without the UI?
[12:13] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: AlanBell: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/01/uk-cabinet-office-betrayal-of-open-standards-confirmed/index.htm
[12:14] <oimon> DJones: :(
[13:05] <MooDoo> hello all
[13:06] <davmor2> MooDoo: you old hippy how are you
[13:07] <MooDoo> davmor2: alreeeet youth :D
[13:08] <davmor2> MooDoo: so photo shoot with the new camera is this?
[13:08] <MooDoo> davmor2: speak english yoda :p
[13:09] <davmor2> MooDoo: So photo shoot, with the new camera, is this?
[13:09] <MooDoo> am i doing one?  or have i done one?
[13:09] <MooDoo> sorry confused
[13:10] <davmor2> MooDoo: You're doing the model day thingy aren't you?
[13:10] <MooDoo> davmor2: ah yes, april
[13:11] <davmor2> fair enough it sounded sooner
[13:12] <MooDoo> davmor2: i'll get the images online when i've editied them
[13:35]  * smittix is playing cannon fodder
[13:46] <davmor2> smittix: An awesome old game
[13:47] <MooDoo> smittix: fab game :D
[14:01] <daubers> Ooooh... new laptop
[14:01] <MooDoo> what you got daubers
[14:01] <daubers> samsung thing :) i5 based
[14:02] <daubers> will try and install precise on it shortly
[14:02] <davmor2> wow samsung have gone a bit of the rails with their naming scheme now,  The Samsung Thing
[14:02] <daubers> It's got 600b written on the case
[14:08] <gord> 600 bee's?
[14:09] <daubers> \o/ bee's
[14:09] <daubers> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgXwYWqd9Y
[14:11] <czajkowski> http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/01/uk-cabinet-office-betrayal-of-open-standards-confirmed/index.htm
[14:13] <hamitron> bah, 128k internet.... gone over download limit ;/
[14:16] <daubers> czajkowski: Sad isn't it
[14:17] <czajkowski> yup
[14:17] <daubers> Should put in a FoI request for details on any lunches/dinners/presents given to the various gov departments involved by Microsoft
[14:17] <oimon> +1
[14:30] <oimon> telegraph are now covering the ubuntu tv story.
[14:31] <oimon> which is an improvement over their previous CES story which featured name drop of apple in each paragraph - somewhat impressive since they are not there.
[14:31] <hamitron> :)
[14:31] <oimon> i moaned at the journo about it
[14:34] <oimon> see that they are making toy guns for adults now? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/8998520/US-Army-introduces-video-game-weapons.html
[14:36] <ali1234> well it's about time someone rewrote mythtv from scratch
[14:36] <directhex> ali1234, ?
[14:36] <MartijnVdS> and fixed DVB stream parsing (EPG)
[14:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: ^
[14:37] <ali1234> no, EPG works perfectly with mythtv, it's about the only thing that does though
[14:37] <directhex> MartijnVdS, EIT works fine with valid packets. problem is the volume of bad packets that the software can receive from the driver
[14:37] <oimon> i've been waiting for a mythtv box that doesn't require setting up
[14:37] <directhex> lollerskates
[14:37] <MartijnVdS> directhex: My TV provider uses EIT for full EPG, but BBC seems to think that's below them and uses their own format, and uses EIT only for now/next
[14:38] <oimon> the android tv screenshot looks lame http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ces/9001563/CES-2012-Google-Android-TV-announced-by-Lenovo.html
[14:38] <directhex> MartijnVdS, you're talking DVB-S?
[14:38] <ali1234> the big problem with mythtv is the user interface totally sucks
[14:39]  * hamitron just uses an off the shelf device
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> directhex: yes
[14:39] <ali1234> hamitron: i can't do that because i don't have a TV
[14:39] <directhex> MartijnVdS, yeah, could be worse. seen what virgin do with DVB-C?
[14:39] <ali1234> also i don't have anywhere to put a TV
[14:39] <hamitron> ali1234, Video In?
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> directhex: I've seen what Ziggo and UPC do to it. People cried that day.
[14:40] <ali1234> HDMI video in?
[14:40] <directhex> monitor with more than one input?
[14:40]  * hamitron hasn't got HD
[14:40] <ali1234> i'd be interested to see what this "one remote" looks like
[14:40] <ali1234> considering that there's still the dash where you have to type stuff
[14:41] <ali1234> is it just going to be a full size infra red keyboard?
[14:41] <hamitron> I got one of them sony dvd/hdd recorders, then just fast dub to dvd, to get a video saved onto the comp
[14:41] <hamitron> hassle I suppose
[14:41] <hamitron> :/
[14:41] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: bluetooth
[14:42] <ali1234> full size bluetooth keyboard?
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> of course!
[14:42] <hamitron> :)
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> with a mouse
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> or maybe a built-in touchpad
[14:42] <ali1234> that will go down really well...
[14:43] <popey> boxee remote is what we use in demos of ubuntu tv
[14:43] <daubers> popey: Is this your seecret project?
[14:44] <daubers> or is that something else?
[14:44] <ali1234> picture?
[14:44] <ali1234> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/09/boxee-remote-2010-09-01-600-wmark-01.jpg
[14:44] <popey> thats the one
[14:44] <popey> it's really nice in the hand
[14:44] <popey> small enough to lose tho
[14:44] <bigcalm> Oooo
[14:45] <bigcalm> Bluetooth or wifi?
[14:45] <bigcalm> Or other radio?
[14:45] <popey> dunno
[14:45] <popey> I'd have to google
[14:46] <bigcalm> Not sure I'd want that as my _one_ remote though
[14:46] <bigcalm> I do like pointing to things with the wiimote
[14:46] <ali1234> personally i can't stand any kind of wireless controller
[14:47] <bigcalm> ali1234: do you get off the sofa to change channels?
[14:47] <ali1234> i don't have a sofa
[14:47] <bigcalm> Beanbag?
[14:47] <ali1234> i have a computer and a desk and a chair
[14:47] <ali1234> i don't "change channels" i use mythtv
[14:47] <oimon> hope it's a comfy chair
[14:47] <ali1234> i use it through mythweb
[14:47] <ali1234> with a keyboard and mouse - wired
[14:48] <oimon> i take it you are single
[14:48] <ali1234> goes without saying really
[14:48] <oimon> if i was single i'd do the same, and not even have a tv or tv licence
[14:48] <oimon> but my missis likes watching telly
[14:48]  * daubers waits for laptop HDD to image
[14:48] <daubers> Precise daily CD seems ok
[14:48] <daubers> oimon: I have no TV licence \o/
[14:48] <daubers> Don't watch broadcast :)
[14:50]  * hamitron suspects there will be changes to tv license, to make it a requirement for streaming
[14:51] <bigcalm> Eyeball tax!
[14:51] <oimon> would be fair enough if you download the progs
[14:51] <hamitron> oimon, agreed..... and even my parents do it on their tv now
[14:52] <hamitron> so some may see it as a way to avoid "tuning in"
[14:52] <hamitron> well, more than some.... enough to affect the amount of £££ collected
[14:54] <popey> daubers: maybe ☺
[14:54] <hamitron> how much data does iplayer transfer?
[14:54] <hamitron> someone has gone crazy on my internet connection yesterday :/
[14:55] <oimon> why are many ebooks on amazon £0.77 when they should be free?
[14:55] <MartijnVdS> oimon: tax.
[14:55] <hamitron> maybe to cover cost of kindle transfer over 3G?
[14:55] <oimon> lazt/stupid tax?
[14:56] <hamitron> how can something free have a tax on? :/
[14:57]  * oimon goes to guternberg instead
[14:59] <daubers> popey: You tease :p
[15:11] <DJones> oimon: Don't forget you pay vat on ebooks as well :)
[15:12] <oimon> not public domain ones that should be £0.00 :(
[15:12] <oimon> it's probably better for me to download epubs than kindle format anyway
[15:15] <CaMason> public domain doesn't mean free
[15:16] <CaMason> I could take any public domain content and sell it for £9001
[15:16] <Azelphur> Ubuntu TV looks interesting. I wonder how it will compare to MythTV
[15:17] <oimon> CaMason: which is why they are taxing the lazy/ignorant when you should be able to easily get it for free
[15:17] <CaMason> that's an argument that could be applied to most capitalism principles
[15:18] <CaMason> also there are numerous open-source projects that create books that are public-domain, but they sell them at a profit and use the funds for their project. Anyone can download them for free, but others can support the project
[15:21] <shauno> Public Domain doesn't mean it cost them nothing to produce either. One look at the Project Gutenberg books that have been auto-churned into ePub will show that there's manual effort in a well-produced end product
[15:22] <CaMason> basically, it's the libre vs free concept
[15:23] <CaMason> or 'libre vs gratis' to be more precise
[15:28] <daubers> gah, caught myself zoning out by watching the size of my dd'd hdd image growing....
[15:31] <Neoti_Laptop>  hi all... i have a simple but intresting question... if i get a win tv card to get satellite channels, configure TVheadend to send the channels in to xbmc-pvr but also open the port on my router to allow a friend to connect to my tvheadend session is that legal ? im only viewing freeview channels so will only stream them to a friend who does not have an arial ?
[15:31] <oimon> http://www.therestartpage.com/ sad lack of linux on here
[15:32] <Azelphur> Neoti_Laptop: I believe it's illegal to rebroadcast in any way, besides that, MythTV streams (which is what XBMC uses afaik) are absolutely huge and unless your both on insane 100mbit+ connections it won't work like that
[15:33] <Neoti_Laptop> not using the mythtv plug in using TVHEADEND plug in as i dont like mythtv too much ...
[15:33] <Azelphur> never knew that :)
[15:34] <popey> Azelphur: its not quite clear cut about rebroadcasting live TV
[15:34] <Azelphur> Neoti_Laptop: but yea, it's probably the same, I think the streams from the card are like 2MB/sec so you'll need like 16mbit/sec up which nobody gives you xD
[15:34] <popey> there is a loophole in the law which is how TVCatchup etc type services are legal
[15:35] <Azelphur> popey: fun
[15:36] <Azelphur> popey: I wonder if that means torrenting TV shows in my usual habbits is legal (I usually torrent them as they come out and watch them I want, basically time shifting them)
[15:36] <popey> no, it doesnt
[15:36] <Azelphur> aww :(
[15:36] <CaMason> actually I think re-broadcasting terrestrial UK TV is somewhat legal
[15:36] <popey> there is a difference between re-broadcast of live TV, and torrenting which is redistributing pre-recorded content
[15:37] <Azelphur> popey: isn't that what tv-catchup services are doing though? (redistributing pre-recorded content)
[15:37] <popey> no
[15:37] <popey> live only
[15:37] <CaMason> if they are, they have permission to
[15:37] <Azelphur> *shrug*
[15:38] <popey> other services like SeeSaw do have agreements in place to stream pre-recorded library content
[15:38] <popey> tvcatchup dont
[15:38] <CaMason> tvcatchup used to - they had to remove it
[15:38] <hamitron> torrents are often making the material available to those who should not have access, also
[15:38] <popey> what was that other one that had a linux client for a while..
[15:38] <CaMason> get_iplayer can be used to download BBC iplayer content, which is another grey-area
[15:39] <Azelphur> popey: haha I can't remember it either, but I know the one your talking about
[15:39] <popey> zoosomething
[15:39] <CaMason> there were some documents published by Ofcom last year that indicated such activity would be deemed legal - even if it circumvented DRM
[15:39] <Neoti_Laptop> humm..... so a grey area then .... ..... doh.... its never clear cut these things ... :P lol
[15:40] <popey> get_iplayer doesn't circumvent DRM
[15:40] <Azelphur> popey: Zattoo :D
[15:40] <CaMason> technically, format shifting in the UK isn't legal
[15:40] <popey> thats it!
[15:40] <CaMason> I'll try and find the document... it was a bunch of proposals aimed at formalising what most people do anyway
[15:41] <popey> like speeding, stealing pens from work...
[15:41] <CaMason> precisely
[15:41] <Azelphur> Neoti_Laptop: so basically legally grey area but you don't have the bandwidth to do it anyway unless you encode on the fly
[15:41] <CaMason> speeding = increase speed limit to 80
[15:41] <hamitron> Azelphur, get_iplayer lets those with not enough bandwidth watch stuff btw ;)
[15:42] <Azelphur> hamitron: fun :)
[15:42] <CaMason> I use get_iplayer and stick stuff on my ipad for when I'm on the train
[15:42] <Azelphur> hamitron: also I thought you wasn't a pirate ;)
[15:42] <CaMason> and my phone
[15:42] <oimon> anyone know what technology blinkbox use?
[15:42] <hamitron> Azelphur, I watch bbc content in the UK, via iplayer..... not pirating
[15:43] <oimon> the free stuff is flash, but wonder about the paid stuff
[15:43] <Neoti_Laptop> thanks azelphur... and i do have the bandwidth 1GB of it ..... over fibre to his house next door... :P
[15:44] <Azelphur> Neoti_Laptop: oh, why are you forwarding the port then? Just let him connect to your LAN.
[15:44] <Azelphur> It'll be much faster :)
[15:44] <Neoti_Laptop> i dont want him on my internal lan ....
[15:45] <Azelphur> Neoti_Laptop: so subnet him, problem solved! :P
[15:45] <Neoti_Laptop> internet - Middle LAN - Internal LAN he will connect to the middle lan ...
[15:45] <Neoti_Laptop> ah subnet ....
[15:45] <Neoti_Laptop> even better
[15:45] <Azelphur> :)
[15:45] <Neoti_Laptop> yet again thanks Azelphur
[15:45] <oimon> why you have fibre to your neighbour?
[15:45] <Azelphur> yw
[15:46] <Azelphur> oimon: why wouldn't you? #occupytheinternet
[15:46]  * Azelphur runs
[15:46]  * oimon shoots
[15:46] <Azelphur> haha
[15:46] <Neoti_Laptop> we are geeks and was playing with fibre stuff a while ago and put it between our houses ... lol
[15:46]  * oimon gets out the pepper spray
[15:46] <Neoti_Laptop> i think all you need to know there is the word GEEK ... lol
[15:46] <Azelphur> :D
[15:47] <CaMason> one should know better than to ask "why?"
[15:47] <CaMason> "why not?" is the only acceptable question in GeekTown
[15:47] <Neoti_Laptop> :)
[15:47] <gordonjcp> Neoti_Laptop: fair enough
[15:47] <Azelphur> I may well be moving near to my brother and we've already talked about setting up something high speed
[15:48] <oimon> one reason not to employ geeks
[15:48] <gordonjcp> Neoti_Laptop: up here we used to have a bunch of 2.4GHz and 5.8GHz links between our houses
[15:48] <gordonjcp> Neoti_Laptop: moved on from that stuff now though
[15:48] <CaMason> oimon, I employ several!
[15:48] <oimon> they spend all their time geeking and not solving real problems
[15:48] <gordonjcp> so pretty soon the 26GHz NEC Pasolinks are getting delivered
[15:48] <CaMason> oimon, not mine. I geek up and VNC into their screens
[15:48] <Neoti_Laptop> CaMason employ me ... lol
[15:48] <hamitron> oimon, haha
[15:48] <Neoti_Laptop> then you can have nine geeks...
[15:49] <Neoti_Laptop> gordonjcp nice
[15:49] <gordonjcp> Neoti_Laptop: I plan on tuning them down to 24GHz so I don't need a commercial licence
[15:50] <Neoti_Laptop> NICE!!
[15:50] <Neoti_Laptop> LIKE IT
[15:50] <oimon> anyone know about the impending changes in 2012 regarding radio frequencies?
[15:50] <gordonjcp> oimon: in what context?
[15:50] <oimon> wireless radio mics, etc
[15:50] <CaMason> My office is 20 meters from the BT exchange... I wonder if there's any viability of a fibre link w/ BT
[15:50] <oimon> i think i am required to changes the frequencies
[15:51] <gordonjcp> oimon: oh, yeah
[15:51] <gordonjcp> it's not something I really deal with but I can find out
[15:51] <Azelphur> CaMason: If you live in Kent, not a lot of people realise you may be able to get VFast, which is very cool
[15:51] <Azelphur> sadly I'm in a black spot for them :(
[15:52] <oimon> http://www.dmmusic.com/acatalog/2012_Spectrum_Changes.html
[15:52] <CaMason> Plymouth here
[15:52] <oimon> i use 6 wireless mics and an wireless earpiece
[15:52] <Azelphur> CaMason: hehe
[15:52] <oimon> i'm getting interference issues.
[15:52] <CaMason> quite far from Kent ;)
[15:52] <Azelphur> CaMason: I'm so gutted I'm literally just out of line of sight for it, right on the edge of 100mbit :D
[15:53] <CaMason> *sigh* it's taken the best of the day to install and patch a copy of Windows 7 for testing :/
[15:54] <Neoti_Laptop> same here with Win XP .... sigh ... lol
[15:54] <MooDoo> CaMason: didn't take me that long, but yeah it take a while,
[15:54] <CaMason> mostly as I've had to keep checking, clicking, waiting... then check
[15:54] <MooDoo> i did my sisters vista laptop the other day, took nearly 2/3 days at a few hours a day
[15:55]  * jutnux awakens
[15:59] <jutnux> Quick question: How do I stop losing connection when I put the computer to sleep?
[15:59] <jutnux> I've Googled etcetera.
[16:01] <bigcalm> You don't have a choice
[16:01] <bigcalm> To sleep is to be off in essence
[16:02] <jutnux> Of course it is, silly me :p
[16:02] <jpds> Well, some stuff like SSH might start working again.
[16:02] <oimon> how can i reproduce weird characters? e.g. ä without copy-paste
[16:02] <bigcalm> alt gr + some numbers
[16:02] <oimon> character map says U+00E4 ?
[16:03] <Oli> oimon: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ComposeKey
[16:04] <jpds> oimon: Ctrl-Shift-U e4
[16:04] <jpds> oimon: Space.
[16:04] <Oli> So Compose-key (my altgr+rshift), ", a
[16:04] <Oli> ä
[16:05] <Oli> List of compose-key keys: http://hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html
[16:05] <oimon> thanks guys. i didn't have compose key configured
[16:06] <jpds> Nothing weird about ä thought.
[16:07] <oimon> the only prob with right alt is that it kills the right alt 4 behvaiour for euro symbol
[16:07]  * oimon just noticed there's a right win key :-\
[16:07] <oimon> how long has that been there?
[16:08] <Oli> A while :)
[16:08] <jpds> oimon: apt-get install unicode; unicode euro
[16:09] <jpds> oimon: Ctrl-Shift-U 20ac
[16:09] <oimon> i'm good now guys..thans for the myriad options
[16:09] <Azelphur> Just stumbled on this re the wacky home networks convo earlier: http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/06/24/impressive-home-networks/
[16:10] <jutnux> Last of my mocks done today \o/
[16:12] <hamitron> jutnux, so we can mock you without retaliation? :D
[16:13] <shauno> good lord Azelphur.  those make me feel like a luddite.
[16:13] <oimon> today has been pathetic for productivity . i blame the 50% success rate in trying to sleep last night
[16:13] <shauno> I hope I never need 10 terminals at home
[16:13] <Azelphur> shauno: haha
[16:15] <oimon> i used to have 10 in my hallway
[16:15] <shauno> I thought mine was starting to look bad having separate firewall & router
[16:17] <hamitron> just to clarify, what is a normal number of comps in home these days? :/
[16:17] <hamitron> at home
[16:17] <hamitron> ;/
[16:17] <christel> $lots
[16:17] <oimon> single or married
[16:18] <shauno> I'm not sure what you consider a computer anymore
[16:18] <hamitron> single
[16:18] <bigcalm> Then yes
[16:18] <oimon> as many as the floor will support
[16:18] <hamitron> ah, god then
[16:18] <hamitron> :)
[16:18] <christel> i have less computers in the house since acquiring a family
[16:18] <hamitron> good*
[16:18] <hamitron> so how many in a family home?
[16:18] <bigcalm> Living with Hayley we have just 6 now
[16:18] <bigcalm> Sod, 7
[16:19] <bigcalm> I keep having to revise that number
[16:19] <shauno> I'd say we have two computers.  what we actually have is firewall(debian), fileserver(debian), router(apple) in the office, two more routers dotted around for signal reasons, then his'n hers laptops, phones, an ipad, and a wee box under the telly
[16:19] <oimon> unless yo're popey, then probably desktop + spare desktop, laptop , spare laptop, tablet, smartphones, kindle, low powered ARM device
[16:20] <hamitron> I just wish people would stop throwing devices away, that I feel the need to save :/
[16:20] <oimon> and a box of obsolete tech that i really need to throw out: psion revo, palm m505, old phones,
[16:20] <bigcalm> 2 workstations, server, 3 laptops, netbook. Phones not included
[16:20] <oimon> hamitron: want any of my junk?
[16:20] <hamitron> sure
[16:20] <shauno> oh, and an amiga in my room :D
[16:20]  * hamitron facedesks
[16:20] <bigcalm> Bugger, there's also the mythtv box. But that hasn't been used for a long time
[16:20] <bigcalm> Should do something with that some time
[16:20] <hamitron> oimon, nothing below i586 though, I have standards....
[16:20] <hamitron> ;)
[16:20] <ali1234> i only have 2 computers and 2 netbooks
[16:21] <oimon> why would anyone want old PDAs is beyond me, unless they have issues
[16:21] <shauno> I don't think of things like myth boxes & such as computers anymore.  they're computer-shaped appliances
[16:21] <jutnux> Can't wait for the RASPBERRY PI to come out
[16:21] <jutnux> Home server, DNS/DHCP
[16:21] <christel> my two year old son has two computers, i figure at this rate he'll gain one for each year
[16:21] <christel> so i hope he'll move out by the time he's six
[16:22] <hamitron> I've just failed recently, with my conslidation plans.... got a NAS to replace a full file server, now runs them both :/
[16:22] <ormiret> oimon: old pdas ahve quite good processing power for electical power usage to make embedded stuff from...
[16:22] <hamitron> consolidation*
[16:22] <hamitron> devices live, to be used! damn it :/
[16:22] <shauno> hamitron: I've an old 1.8GHz celeron that never gets used anymore.  if I could afford the postage, I'd send it to you just to laugh at your pile :p
[16:23] <oimon> i have a broken apple g4 PPC in the loft
[16:23] <ali1234> i have a cupboard filled with old motherboards and cpus
[16:23] <hamitron> shauno, that would be an upgrade tbh ;/
[16:23] <oimon> lasted two weeks till i broke it
[16:23] <ali1234> and cdrom drives
[16:23] <ali1234> for some reason i have more cdrom drives than computers by a factor of about 4
[16:23] <ali1234> i have no idea where they came from
[16:23] <shauno> I only built that celery because it's (bar the cpu) chip-for-chip compatible with the apple DTK from the ppc->intel transition
[16:24] <oimon> i'm saving up to go to the dump with my dead laptops and computers
[16:24] <hamitron> my oldest comp in use, is a p120
[16:24] <hamitron> :/
[16:24] <oimon> oof
[16:24] <oimon> my first job involved a brand new compaq p133 on my desk
[16:24] <oimon> in 1996
[16:25] <hamitron> p133 was top of the range, when I got my p120
[16:25] <hamitron> outta my budget
[16:25] <hamitron> ;)
[16:25] <shauno> I've 1GHz "under the telly" and 700MHz on the firewall.  anything below that goes out to recycling
[16:25] <oimon> don't invite any women home whom you are interested in
[16:25] <shauno> (ignoring the amiga, which has earnt it's place, damnit)
[16:25] <oimon> i have a topfield pvr..no idea what kind of processor it has
[16:25] <kaushal> Hi
[16:26] <kaushal> Hi
[16:26] <hamitron> I'm tempted to drop everything below 300mhz soon
[16:26] <shauno> I have the first-generation appletv.  it makes for a pretty SO-friendly xbmc box (given that my telly is only 720p, at least)
[16:27]  * hamitron is lucky enough to have avoided Apple gear
[16:27] <hamitron> ;D
[16:27] <shauno> I'm glad htpc is finally starting to catch on as a "ready-to-ship" consumer unit, because previously, the fact that my wife doesn't want an atx tower sat beside the TV has gone largely ignored
[16:27] <oimon> bought an imac for colleague that arrived already borked
[16:28] <hamitron> shauno, hehe
[16:28] <shauno> in this house, anything with a screen is apple-based.  anything without a screen is debian or ubuntu  (And we're working away from ubuntu)
[16:28] <daubers> Precise install process, oinly found one bug
[16:29] <hamitron> 12.04 is ubuntu's last chance here :)
[16:29] <oimon> hamitron: what's it gotta do to impress you?
[16:29] <hamitron> work
[16:29] <hamitron> ;/
[16:30] <hamitron> it will be for higher end comps only
[16:30] <oimon> i used to upgrade every 6 months until 10.04
[16:30] <oimon> cos times were exciting back then
[16:30] <directhex> when you were a lad
[16:30] <oimon> now there haven't been any compelling features since 2010
[16:30] <directhex> and ice creams were tuppence ha'penny
[16:30] <hamitron> aiming to have all 32 bit machines on slackware, then 64 bit on ubuntu
[16:31] <oimon> when we used to play in the street
[16:31] <oimon> found a bunch of 5.xx ubuntu cd's t'other day.
[16:31] <hamitron> 5.10 was actually my favourite
[16:31] <hamitron> :/
[16:31] <oimon> think i used 4.10 first
[16:31] <shauno> I used to build gnome from sauce twice a month.  then things got boring when canonical (or "no-name-yet.com") kidnapped jdub so garnome died.  then I kinda idled until apple moved to intel
[16:31] <hamitron> 8.04 was good too
[16:32] <oimon> 8.04 started getting wireless issues and video issue with intel not long after.
[16:33] <hamitron> 10.04 is good, apart from it cost me so much time trying to get it working on older machines, I've grown to hate it
[16:33] <hamitron> I never had wireless
[16:33] <hamitron> :)
[16:33] <shauno> 8.06 served me well as a server for a long time.  no complaints
[16:33] <directhex> i liked 8.04
[16:33] <directhex> it looked good
[16:33] <hamitron> was slick too
[16:33] <shauno> now, they barely want to know you if you're not running on amazon.  so my next itteration is moving back to debian
[16:33] <directhex> unlike some of the fail designs between 8.10 and 10.04
[16:34] <oimon> it's a sign of success for me , because there were nasty bugs in every release until 10.04 for me
[16:34] <oimon> weird kernel bugs too
[16:35] <oimon> e.g. kernel wouldn't boot 4/10 on a battery < 15%
[16:35] <hamitron> if 12.04 fails, dunno what to do :/
[16:35] <hamitron> may try 32 bit slackware, with PAE?
[16:35] <Laney> fifteen miles, uphill both ways!
[16:35] <bigcalm> :D
[16:35] <oimon> suspend still don't work for me though :(
[16:35] <oimon> on desktop
[16:36] <shauno> I haven't tried slackware since my 386.  And I'd be surprised if it's changed much.
[16:36] <shauno> sounds perfect for hamitron ;)
[16:36] <hamitron> shauno, uses all the latest software... like normal
[16:36] <hamitron> ;)
[16:36] <hamitron> admit, the setup hasn't changed much
[16:36] <hamitron> ;/
[16:36] <hamitron> well, it has
[16:37] <hamitron> but feels nice and old still
[16:37] <oimon> can any clever people help me merge an ogv video and ogg music file together?
[16:37] <shauno> I'll never forget that install, because I wound up with slackware because it was the only distro that'd let me use two floppy drives, instead of one drive + ramdisk, to complete the install with <4Mb ram
[16:37] <hamitron> oimon, man ffmpeg
[16:37] <hamitron> ;)
[16:37] <oimon> ffmpeg produces a file that is the length of the shortest file
[16:38] <oimon> maybe i'm holding it wrong
[16:38] <hamitron> shauno, 4Mb ram support was dropped in slackware 11.0 sadly
[16:38] <hamitron> :/
[16:38] <oimon> i should probably ask MartijnVdS, he's good for that kind of question
[16:38] <shauno> bummer.  worked fine in 3.3
[16:38] <hamitron> 2.6 kernel is a beast
[16:39] <hamitron> :/
[16:39] <shauno> someone should make a distro aimed at grumpy old men.  I *know* there's a market for it
[16:40] <hamitron> my fav distro of all time was actually slackware 8.1 though...
[16:40] <hamitron> shauno, hell yeh!
[16:40] <hamitron> :D
[16:40] <shauno> basically freebsd for people who think that bsd is too wierd
[16:40] <DJones> grumpbuntu
[16:40] <oimon> opening firefox would actually open lynx embedded
[16:42] <hamitron> guess I'm not a grumpy old man of the past then, I prefer firefox.... 1.5
[16:42] <hamitron> ;/
[16:42] <oimon> what was it called before ff?
[16:42] <hamitron> nutscrape
[16:42] <oimon> firefly or something?
[16:42] <oimon> between nuts and fox
[16:42] <davmor2> oimon: use openshot or pitivi
[16:42] <hamitron> oh, lemme look
[16:43] <hamitron> I still got it
[16:43] <oimon> davmor2: that will re-encode the file though?
[16:43] <shauno> lynx embedded?  you know there's a framebuffer version of elinks, right?
[16:43] <oimon> (or will it?) want to mux without encoding
[16:43] <davmor2> oimon: save it out as a different file
[16:43] <oimon> davmor2: i'll try. should take 1 minute rather than 29 mins :..
[16:44] <shauno> I thought oggtools included a muxer
[16:44] <directhex> oggmux!
[16:44] <oimon> shauno: failed for me
[16:44] <directhex> muxing is fragile
[16:45] <shauno> ogmmerge?
[16:45] <oimon> ogmmerge: Error: the reader for out-1.ogv did not produce a header page.
[16:46] <hamitron> oimon, can't remember
[16:46] <hamitron> I got v0.5
[16:46] <oimon> firebird
[16:47] <hamitron> I not called it that
[16:47] <hamitron> :/
[16:47] <oimon> http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=4278
[16:47] <oimon> The standalone Mozilla Firebird browser has been renamed to Firefox and received an upgrade to version 0.8
[16:47] <hamitron> I found WinLinux 2000
[16:47] <hamitron> :D
[16:47] <directhex> pfft
[16:47] <directhex> mozilla phoenix!
[16:48] <oimon> hamitron: are you that guy who i saw on telly with newspapers up to the ceiling?
[16:48] <directhex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firefox#Naming
[16:48] <oimon> he had a crawl space of only 2 feet to travel between rooms
[16:49] <hamitron> hehe, I just keep all apps and drivers I've downloaded.... in case
[16:49] <shauno> my inner 12yo thinks that sounds fun
[16:49] <hamitron> especially old win95 drivers and stuff
[16:50] <shauno> I actually do that.  I have an external drive called 'vault' which has anything which I believe may be ruined in later releases
[16:50] <hamitron> yeh
[16:50] <oimon> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076822/Richard-Wallace-hoarded-rubbish-seen-space.html
[16:50] <hamitron> and drivers for old devices, are sometimes hard to find
[16:51] <oimon> he's skinny becuase it takes hours to reach the kitchen
[16:51] <oimon> "Mr Wallace warns that obsessive collecting is not a good idea as it takes over people's lives" --let that be a lesson mr hamitron
[16:52] <hamitron> one of my latest habbits... when I download something like openoffice.org, I download EVERY build of that version :/
[16:52] <hamitron> haha
[16:52] <hamitron> it does ;/
[16:52] <shauno> that's a little .. odd
[16:53] <hamitron> better than downloading a set of ISO for CentOS, marked "i386", to find they are in fact "i686" \o/
[16:53] <hamitron> man that annoys me
[16:54] <shauno> i386 generically means "32bit" now.  I wish they'd find a better way to term that
[16:54] <hamitron> i686 works
[16:54] <hamitron> ;/
[16:54] <jpds> hamitron: Can't you just... get with the future?
[16:54] <jpds> It's 2012.
[16:54] <shauno> yorkshire and future don't mix well ;)
[16:55]  * hamitron spanks shauno 
[16:55] <oimon> however, yorkshire and pudding does
[16:55] <shauno> eee by gum!
[16:55] <hamitron> intel are still doing research work with i586 you will find
[16:55] <hamitron> ;/
[16:56] <hamitron> so maybe I am in fact ahead? ;)
[16:57] <hamitron> but it is still not an excuse for naming things incorrectly
[16:57]  * hamitron growls
[16:57] <shauno> reminds me, I have to figure out if there's anything interesting to do in london next sunday evening
[16:57] <jpds> Say hi to amd64.
[16:57] <MooDoo> by eck lad, yorkshire pud hmmmmm black pudding and bacon breakcakes yummy
[16:58] <oimon> anyone interested in this? http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/event/2715934433
[16:58] <oimon> At the fifteenth OSHUG meeting we'll be taking a look at wireless technologies. We will hear how you can repurpose low cost commodity equipment, we will be given an introduction to RF basics, and we will learn about the Contiki operating system
[16:59] <oimon> here's hoping tomorrow will be more productive
[16:59] <shauno> my favourite northern phrase (which I think might be yorks specifically), is "ff tha' ever does owt for nowt, allus make sure tha does it for tha sen"
[16:59] <shauno> ugh, *if
[16:59] <hamitron> :)
[17:00] <shauno> (I'm born a southerner but spent 20 years in the north & scotland.  the result is a helluva'n accent)
[17:01] <DJones> shauno: With that mixture, it must sound like klingon
[17:02] <shauno> it's actually not too bad.  me ma's from oxford, and that's what seems to come out as the general theme
[17:02] <hamitron> that isn't bad? :|
[17:03] <hamitron> ;)
[17:03] <shauno> but spending 20 of my first 21 years up with the scary hairy northerners creeps in on a fairly regular basis
[17:04] <shauno> but for kicks 'n giggles, 5 years in the US, 5 years in Ireland, and a geordie father .. just make the mix a little more difficult to place
[17:05]  * oimon has only ever spent 3 years outside of a 4 mile radius of his birthplace
[17:06] <oimon> or including time spent at work, extend that to 12 miles
[17:06] <hamitron> same oimon
[17:06] <hamitron> :)
[17:06] <shauno> oh gosh.  I think I spent less than 3 months within 50 miles of my birthplace
[17:06] <hamitron> well, 12 miles
[17:06] <oimon> my son was born in the same hospital as me, and will go to same school
[17:07] <shauno> I was only born where I was because me pa was at sea, so she went running home to her mum
[17:08] <hamitron> I think it was nicer when everyone didn't travel all over tbh
[17:08] <shauno> I've now lived in the south-west, north-west, north-east, and both coast of scotland.  and then the US & Ireland.  and not in that order
[17:08] <hamitron> "locals" making up the majority
[17:09] <shauno> if the rumours pan out, my next move is going to be to romania
[17:09] <hamitron> you looking forward to that? :|
[17:09] <jutnux> oimon: My dad was born in the same hospital and I've gont to the same school ;)
[17:10] <shauno> oddly, yes
[17:10] <hamitron> I couldn't do it
[17:10] <hamitron> just not my sort of thing
[17:11] <shauno> well, see .. most my family were in the navy.  my mother, my first two fathers, more uncles than I can keep track of, several grandparents, etc.
[17:11] <shauno> so this is the life I've grown up with
[17:12] <hamitron> yeh
[17:12] <shauno> I can see that if you grew up in one place, the momentum is to carry on doing the same.  and there's nowt wrong with that
[17:12] <hamitron> I tend to prefer to stick to places with a similar culture
[17:12] <hamitron> aye
[17:12] <jutnux> I'm moving out of the rubbish dump
[17:13] <hamitron> I'm slowly having to accept I may have to move for work
[17:13] <hamitron> that or a life on benefits
[17:14] <bigcalm> hamitron: you could try working from home
[17:14] <shauno> that's the bit that doesn't feel right at all.  that destroys communities
[17:14] <hamitron> bigcalm, I do
[17:14] <hamitron> ;)
[17:15] <directhex> people not talking to their neighbors destroys communities
[17:15] <shauno> I think if everyone moves, it's difficult for places to keep their own character.  however, myself, I'm more than willing to be the one that does move
[17:15] <directhex> the british are massively reserved and avoid talking to strangers
[17:16] <hamitron> directhex, shauno, agree
[17:16] <directhex> stupid brits.
[17:16] <shauno> there's rumours that in the next 18 months, we're going to be told to relocate to romania, or take redundancy.  and I'm totally willing to be the one that relocates
[17:16] <hamitron> I prefer the british way, directhex ;)
[17:16] <MooDoo> we're better than people in new york.....
[17:17] <directhex> whoaaaaa i'm an alien
[17:17] <shauno> well, yes, we don't shoot our neighbours, for the most part
[17:17] <directhex> i'm a legal alien
[17:17] <directhex> i'm an englishman in new yooooork
[17:17] <hamitron> shauno, we don't? :|
[17:17] <hamitron> ;)
[17:17] <shauno> I don't!
[17:17] <shauno> altho I have been shot by a farmer.  with salt-pellets.  which was more embarassing than painful.
[17:17] <hamitron> I shot my neighbours lights out
[17:17] <hamitron> too bright on a night :/
[17:18] <davmor2> shauno: you're not in wolverhampton manchester birmingham or coventry then right?
[17:18] <shauno> davmor2: hah.  nah, I've lived north & south, and nowhere in between
[17:18] <shauno> altho manchester used to be our idea of a good night out
[17:18] <davmor2> shauno: haha
[17:19] <shauno> the only downside was the first train home was 6am
[17:19] <hamitron> perfect
[17:19] <hamitron> :D
[17:19] <shauno> heh.
[17:20] <shauno> there was more than one evening where we spent far too long with no-one but a homeless buy & the btp to keep us company in that station
[17:20] <hamitron> btp?
[17:20] <shauno> the transport police
[17:21] <hamitron> heh, didn't realise there was such a thing
[17:21] <hamitron> ;/
[17:21] <jpds> MooDoo: I read "we're better than people" and I stopped reading.
[17:21] <shauno> the railways have their own bobbies, who like to make sure you've got a good reason for sleeping in their stations
[17:21] <MooDoo> lol
[17:21] <MartijnVdS> BTP? Better Than People?
[17:21] <MartijnVdS> :P
[17:22] <shauno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Transport_Police
[17:22] <davmor2> christel: You could always stop buying them?  computer convo from earlier
[17:22] <christel> davmor2: don't be so sensible!
[17:22] <christel> :P
[17:22] <hamitron> shauno, I believe ya, internet too slow to load that link ;)
[17:24] <davmor2> christel: Me and sensible pfffffffff!!!!!!!!   /me picks himself up off the floor
[17:24] <hamitron> anyways
[17:24] <hamitron> time for food
[17:24] <hamitron> :)
[17:24] <hamitron> bbl o/
[17:24] <shauno> almost related, I was in the UK last week .. were 20 pound notes always that big?
[17:25] <shauno> it's difficult to explain how wrong it felt when I went "home" and all the money felt daft
[17:25] <davmor2> shauno: no twenty pound notes are tiny now you must of had counterfeit notes
[17:26] <shauno> davmor2: newcastle, so that's a strong possibility
[17:27] <shauno> I'm back over next weekend for a funeral, but dahn saff this time.  ugh.
[17:27] <shauno> (or up north, depending on how you view the watford gap)
[17:29] <davmor2> shauno: I view the watford gap as a huge hole in time and space that only the hardy northerns can make it through :D
[17:29] <shauno> oxford's not *that* bad
[17:29] <shauno> altho, I used to live in barrow in the north-west.  before I moved there, the navy lads described the a590 as a time tunnel too
[17:30] <shauno> you turn off the M6 at junction 36, go back 30 years, and arrive in barrow :/
[18:05] <shauno> grrr the ntl box didn't record sherlock
[18:05] <brobostigon> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16474951 :)
[18:19] <awilkins> Bah, trains
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> hmm trains
[18:19] <awilkins> Freezing my extremities on platform for 25 mins is scheduled.
[18:19] <awilkins> Miss train by 30 seconds
[18:19]  * MartijnVdS has 4-6 trains/hour on the work<->home route
[18:20] <awilkins> Ewww, I thought 2 hours each way was bad
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> also, heated stations with coffee bars
[18:20] <awilkins> At least yours are comfy efficient Dutch trains
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: we complain about our trains as well ;)
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> they tend to break down in holiday periods, when they reduce train frequency
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> so IF you have to wait, you have to wait long
[18:21] <awilkins> You wouldn't think this was a station in a major (top 5) city in the uk.
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> Which city?
[18:22] <awilkins> Manchester
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> isn't that one of the first "train cities"?
[18:22] <awilkins> Victoria station. I suppose it has a pub.
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> full of angry travelers
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> would-be ones anyway
[18:23] <awilkins> The trains are these old sardine cans they stuck bottlecaps to and put on the rails.
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: I get these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VIRM6.jpg
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> Or these (with on-board wifi): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Koploper_08-10-2006.jpg
[18:24] <awilkins> That is an *awesome*  train
[18:25] <awilkins> Double decker!!!
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> yes! and it's often so full people need to stand :|
[18:26] <awilkins> That one has a certain Soviet Bloc charm.
[18:26] <awilkins> And Wifi... I'm lucky to get a mobile signal for half my journey.
[18:26] <czajkowski> aloha
[18:26] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: at least it's not the "duck"
[18:26] <awilkins> But ditto with the standing
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: the high-speed train from Amsterdam to Rotterdam (and soon Antwerp): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fyra_Vught.jpg
[18:27] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: that one is _ugly_
[18:27] <awilkins> I drive now - only do trains when wifelet is on call
[18:28] <awilkins> The fuel for a week costs less than 1 persons railtickets for 2 days - no contest.
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> ouch
[18:29] <popey> fuel, tyres, exhaust, servicing...
[18:29] <awilkins> Yeah, but 2 people sharing
[18:29] <awilkins> And we'd have the car anyway
[18:30] <popey> like you have a house anyway?
[18:31] <awilkins> In the sense that we have a use for both other than going to work .. yes
[18:32] <awilkins> We get these trains : en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:142041_Northern_Rail_Castleton_East_Jcn.jpg
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: Wow.. squart!
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> square
[18:32] <awilkins> They're so crap, they overheat in summer unless they run the cabin heating full blast
[18:33] <cgriff> Northern Rail, not one of the best UK providers
[18:33] <awilkins> Them and Transpennine
[18:33] <awilkins> At least Class 185s move
[18:34] <cgriff> First Great Western are rather good for me
[18:34] <awilkins> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_185
[18:35] <gordonjcp> ahaha
[18:35] <gordonjcp> pacers
[18:35] <gordonjcp> basically a 1970s Leyland bus with different wheels
[18:35] <awilkins> They were last built in '86, didn't realise
[18:36] <MartijnVdS> We also get http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SprinterLightTrain2402b.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SGMm_2983.JPG for short distances
[18:36] <gordonjcp> awilkins: yup
[18:36] <gordonjcp> now you'd think that since the technical requirements for a little DMU like that and a normal bus aren't *that* different it would be dead easy
[18:37] <gordonjcp> take the bus engine and gearbox
[18:37] <awilkins> They fail so often they end up with 1 unit on the morning commute which makes for a lovely view of someones armpit and punchups on the platform.
[18:37] <gordonjcp> stick it in an existing DMU bokey
[18:37] <gordonjcp> *bogey
[18:37] <gordonjcp> sweet
[18:37] <gordonjcp> however what they don't take into account is that in a DMU the engine is run pretty much flat out for most of each trip
[18:37] <gordonjcp> and the radiators aren't sized accordingly
[18:38] <gordonjcp> with hilarious consequences
[18:38] <awilkins> Baked passengers.
[18:39] <awilkins> They run the heating to cool the engine off in summer.
[18:39] <gordonjcp> yes
[18:39] <gordonjcp> it's a handy tip actually
[18:39] <gordonjcp> if your car is overheating stick the heater on full blast and see if that helps
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> works for cars too
[18:39] <gordonjcp> it might make the difference between getting to a layby and breaking down on a blind bend
[18:41] <awilkins> We seem to be getting some new rolling stock though. Second hand from Network West Midlands -they've not finished scraping off the logos and repainting them yet.
[18:42] <awilkins> A shame we'll never get those Dutch double deckers. Our tunnels are too poky.
[18:42] <gordonjcp> IIRC the Leyland bus they based the Pacer on used a Leyland marine engine
[18:42] <gordonjcp> 8 litre straight-six
[18:42] <zleap> lol,  in the south west we are getting 2 new carriage I think
[18:42] <gordonjcp> heads and cylinders cast as a unit so there's no head gasket to fail
[18:42] <gordonjcp> but on the other hand just about everything involves pulling the engine out and taking the crank and pistons out >.<
[18:43] <awilkins> I used to love that old stock down south with a corridor and doors and cabins with seats facing each other - I think they used them on Hogwarts Express
[18:43] <gordonjcp> IIRC the technical manual for those engines came with an extensive encyclopedia of rude words
[18:44] <AlanBell> awilkins: some stock like that is still running on a heritage line near me, they do a regular steam pulled beer train which is great
[18:45] <AlanBell> http://www.watercressline.co.uk/Our-Services/RAT
[18:46] <awilkins> Ah yes, remember that from my youth.
[18:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Evening AlanBell
[18:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Back?
[18:46] <zleap> wb
[18:47] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: yes, back now
[18:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ouch! http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2012/jan12/01-04CometPR.mspx
[18:50] <awilkins> OOps. Surely only the OEM license should matter though...
[18:51] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: that happened last week
[18:51] <AlanBell> I suspect it is a power and control issue
[18:51] <awilkins> I found it very annoying that reinstalling my daughters laptop (OEM license) from my retail disk may or may not be illegal
[18:51] <directhex> it is a power & control issue
[18:52] <AlanBell> comet did something outside the terms of the agreement (alegedly)
[18:52] <directhex> currys were being consumer-friendly by providing reimaging CDs, which were useless without the legitimate license keys affixed to the laptops
[18:52] <directhex> microsoft don't like consumer-friendly
[18:53] <TheOpenSourcerer> I thought this Press Release was todsy - I did see the discussion last week but didn't think it was "official". But the date on that release is last weel so I will go and crawl back under my rock.
[18:53] <awilkins> They were *selling* them, not entirely selfless act... I bet the markup was quite profitable
[18:53] <AlanBell> so there will be an out of court settlement and comet will agree to a more restrictive contract
[18:53] <awilkins> Knowing Comet they priced them like a 3 year warranty..
[18:53] <jutnux> I thought Dell sold recovery discs also?
[18:54] <awilkins> Dell ones only work on Dell hardware
[18:55] <awilkins> (unless you rip em and delete the ID file)
[18:55] <directhex> currys ones were per-hardware images
[18:55] <directhex> i.e. one image for an hp foobarbaz, one for a packard bell shonkmeister2000, etc
[18:55] <directhex> basically pre-burning those painful recovery partitions you get on modern computers
[18:55] <awilkins> Did they roll the drivers in? That's substantially more useful than he default Windows ones.
[18:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> After spending 2 days updating a Windows 7 Virtual Machine from clean to latest patches, I really wonder why people still buy their software. It's crap. I lost count of the number times it had to reboot and then get some more stuff, then do something silently for ages, then reboot again...
[18:56] <awilkins> Had to spend 2 hours burning DVDs for the daughter laptop
[18:56] <directhex> awilkins: indeed. specific images with all drivers
[18:56] <awilkins> I had win7 reboot 5 times for updates a day or so after I installed it.
[18:57] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer: lock-in.
[18:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> A brand new vm for Win7 with no extra apps is now 19.5GB!
[18:57] <awilkins> Reported by windows or size of disk image?
[18:58] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's the size of the VBox dynamic image file, as reported by Ubuntu.
[18:58] <awilkins> Yick
[18:58] <TheOpenSourcerer> My XP VM, which is years old and been used frequently, is less than 10GB
[19:00] <awilkins> Yeah, I have one with a full VB6 devkit and MSDN library that's only 8gb
[19:00] <awilkins> But I avoid Windows for work as much as possible now.
[19:01] <awilkins> The images they use at work spend more time doing ICTs bidding than mine.
[19:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> I only really use them for testing web sites in various versions of IE, and now a new vtiger CRM plugin for Outlook. But that's all I use them for,
[19:03] <awilkins> Our IT policy is going into super#paranoia mode. If they actually enforce it we won't be ablw to work.
[19:03] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer: amd64?
[19:03] <awilkins> All apps must be approved, £2,000 a pop for approval.
[19:04] <awilkins> Eclipse
[19:04] <awilkins>  is not on the list
[19:04] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer: win7 is about 10 gig smaller than vista
[19:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> directhex: amd64 what?
[19:04] <directhex> windows
[19:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> Host?
[19:04] <awilkins> along with about 100 other packages on my windows machine
[19:04] <directhex> it's about 8G bigger than i386
[19:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahhh! I did install the 64bit version, yeah.
[19:05] <awilkins> Fat chance of us tumping up £200,000 to continue working...
[19:05] <directhex> it needs 64-bit versions of all the libs and many apps, y'see
[19:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> So it's multi-lib
[19:06] <directhex> yeah
[19:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK. TY, that makes more sense now.
[19:06] <directhex> still, 19.5G seems an overestimate
[19:06] <directhex> remember it makes a restore point for every windows update invocation
[19:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> But my Ubuntu Desktop is 64 bit and with all the apps takes about 4G IIRC.
[19:06] <directhex> so you'll have backup versions of many of those libs
[19:06] <awilkins> VDI files grow but don't shrink
[19:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> awilkins: Yes, I know that too.
[19:07] <awilkins> I think the SxS stuff on windows actually uses hardlinks too (!)
[19:07] <awilkins> But yes, Ubuntu uses peasly disk space in comparison
[19:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> As I said when I started, I'm amazed people still buy the stuff, it's pretty crap really.
[19:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> The power of Marketing and lock-in.
[19:09] <awilkins> Comparing the installers is very informative.
[19:09] <awilkins> Windows installer hasn't had to improve in years.
[19:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Andrew] Cairo Context/Surface to Gdk Pixbuf - http://whyareyoureadingthisurl.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/cairo-contextsurface-to-gdk-pixbuf/
[19:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hah! "Steve Ballmer just jumped on stage at #CES demonstrating the huge advances made in stage strengthening technology"
[19:13] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: Harsh, true but harsh
[19:13] <AlanBell> wow HP servers are *noisy*
[19:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Being a fully paid up member of the FB club myself, I'm allowed to say that :-)
[19:13] <davmor2> AlanBell: they do sound like Jet till the kernel kicks in
[19:14]  * TheOpenSourcerer hopes AlanBell isn't going to install some non-production ready version of an operating system...
[19:15]  * AlanBell is downloading precise server for totally unrelated reasons
[19:15] <AlanBell> just sticking a live 11.04 desktop in for now to get the specs of it
[19:20] <jutnux> Walking a friend through some parts of Ubuntu \o/
[19:27] <jpds> There's a place called Ubuntu?
[19:27] <ubuntubhoy> is it possible to set an app to appear on all desktops?
[19:28] <jutnux> jpds: It's located in France, London.
[19:28] <jpds> ubuntubhoy: Right-click the title bar.
[19:29] <ubuntubhoy> not in title bar, its on-board
[19:29] <ubuntubhoy> I want it to appear on all desktops when started
[19:30] <ubuntubhoy> that way when minimised the icon is on all desktops
[19:30] <ubuntubhoy> as opposed to just the one it was minimised on
[19:30] <AlanBell> ubuntubhoy: onboard should do that anyway I think
[19:30] <ubuntubhoy> it doesnt
[19:30] <ubuntubhoy> well, not that I can find how
[19:31] <jacobw> evening
[19:31] <ubuntubhoy> unless gnome shell is the issue
[19:31] <ubuntubhoy> maybe have to try with unity
[19:31] <AlanBell> ubuntubhoy: in the onboard preferences there is an option to show always on visible workspace
[19:31] <AlanBell> ubuntubhoy: what version of Ubuntu?
[19:32] <ubuntubhoy> 11.10
[19:32] <AlanBell> I am running the upstream version of onboard from trunk, but I think that option has been there a while
[19:32] <ubuntubhoy> using proposed
[19:32] <directhex> awilkins: the vista installer was light years ahead of the older 2k installer though (used by xp and server 2k3)
[19:32] <directhex> awilkins: couldn't even load drivers in the nt5 installer from anywhere but A:\
[19:33] <AlanBell> ubuntubhoy: running 3d or 2d?
[19:33] <ubuntubhoy> neither, gnome shell
[19:33] <AlanBell> err, oh
[19:33] <ubuntubhoy> but cant find the option for all workspaces
[19:33] <AlanBell> in the general tab, under desktop integration
[19:36] <jutnux> Can't wait for these Raspberry PIs
[19:40] <ubuntubhoy> nope, not there for me
[19:40] <ubuntubhoy> unlocking status & tool tips only
[19:41] <AlanBell> :(
[19:41] <ubuntubhoy> not a biggie, just really wondered
[19:41] <AlanBell> I will have a look on my less hacked about desktop later, can't now because a big fat server is in the way
[19:42] <AlanBell> upstream onboard is great, it fades in when you are on an editable field
[19:43] <ubuntubhoy> thats what I really want
[19:43] <ubuntubhoy> might have to look into that
[19:51] <zleap> when is the next podcast thing on ?
[20:02] <DJones> !podcast
[20:02] <DJones> Thought that might have had a date on it
[20:03] <zleap> 21-12-11
[20:05] <zleap> so nearly 2 weeks ago
[20:08] <awilkins> So, Ubuntu TV ... want?
[20:09] <ubuntubhoy> not unless you can theme it
[20:09] <ubuntubhoy> fugly son of a bitch that it is
[20:09] <awilkins> Doesn't look like MythTV, looks like a bunch of lenses backing onto some kind of service (that might be MythTV, or something else)
[20:09] <awilkins> I'm sure you can remove the Ubuntu Purple wallpaper
[20:10] <awilkins> The big question of course is, will the sources be available....
[20:11] <awilkins> "ubuntu TV prefers GPL v3"
[20:11] <awilkins> Nice
[20:13] <zleap> you can change the desktop background in 11.04
[20:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oooh - Jasper Carrot, followed by Horizon - Hunt for the Higgs, on TV tonight. Laterz.
[20:17] <jacobw> when's 'hunt for the higgs'?
[20:17] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: I hate to ruin you're night but the higgs is over there in the large hadron collider the end ;)
[20:21] <zleap> Horizon at 21:00 is about the search for the higgs boson
[20:25] <AlanBell> what is an easy way to do tail -f to an IRC channel?
[20:25] <AlanBell> with irssi or a bot or something, I want it to speak each line of a file as it happens
[20:29] <brobostigon> jasper carrott, now, bbc1, good comedian.
[20:34] <swat_> very impressed with 12.04 :)
[20:34] <swat_> so far
[20:40] <dutchie> AlanBell: i'm sure you could throw a shell script or something fairly quickly
[20:46] <czajkowski> hmm having some issues http://twitpic.com/85czwx/full
[20:48] <bigcalm> czajkowski: I blame davmor2
[20:48] <gordonjcp> czajkowski: that's very similar to the graphics corruption I get
[20:48] <bigcalm> AlanBell: I'd say with a bot
[20:49] <bigcalm> Or, with a irssi perl script
[20:49] <czajkowski> gordonjcp: kinda doing my nogging in this evening
[20:49] <gordonjcp> http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/corrupt.png
[20:51] <gordonjcp> http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/corrupt2.png <- more obvious what's going on there
[20:52] <zleap> hmm,  on 11.04 if I run amsn then minimise this to the side bar thing, it seems to crash and won't let me re-open it,
[21:00] <AlanBell> bigcalm: yeah, I am thinking custom python bot, then I can do the real magical part which is read stuff from the channel and pipe them into X as keystrokes
[21:01] <j0nr> helloall
[21:01] <j0nr> with a space
[21:03] <j0nr> I got a new laptop. It has come with Win7. I haven't looked in detail yet whether it has multiple partitions... but I do plan on resizing the windows partition so I can dual boot windows...which I have done many times before...
[21:03] <j0nr> I havent turned it on yet as I want to do it right first time
[21:03] <j0nr> I am planning on creating an image as it is out the box with clonezilla, so if anything goes wrong, I can restore it to out-of-the-box condition
[21:04] <j0nr> should I do this before or after I resize partitions for ubuntu
[21:04] <j0nr> ?
[21:06] <AlanBell> hi j0nr
[21:06]  * AlanBell has no idea, but thought I would say hi
[21:07] <popey> i would personally not do what you plan to do
[21:08] <popey> i would boot into windows, and use the recovery tool to make the installation media _first)
[21:08] <popey> s/\)/_/
[21:08] <popey> then do the partition shrinking or whatever
[21:09] <j0nr> hello AlanBell :)
[21:09] <j0nr> popey: you think using the built in backup service is better?
[21:09] <popey> backup service?
[21:09] <popey> I'm talking about the media
[21:10] <popey> if you clone it then restore it you're going to reset yourself to the same position as you are in now
[21:10] <j0nr> its a Dell so it does come with this....yes I mean the preinstalled program to make a restore disk
[21:10] <popey> yeah, because you will need those if you ever want to reinstall
[21:10] <j0nr> popey: yes thats my plan, so if I ever mess it all up I can return it to as it was out the box
[21:12] <j0nr> confused
[21:12] <popey> what is confusing?
[21:12] <DJones> j0nr: I did two machines about 6 months ago, I used the builtin windows recovery tool to create the backup disks, then used windows to shrink the c: drive, before installing ubuntu
[21:13] <j0nr> Its got Dell DataSafe (if that means anything) which will create recovery media (usb stick or DVD - neither of which I have to hand)
[21:13] <j0nr> why is using that preferable to cloning the drive to an image with clonezilla?
[21:14] <popey> why will you ever restore from the clonezilla image?
[21:15] <j0nr> if the window installation goes pete tong
[21:15] <j0nr> restore the image I take back over the windows partition
[21:16] <popey> you can restore a large clone over a small partition these days?
[21:16] <j0nr> are you asking me or highlighting my ignorance :) ?
[21:16] <popey> i am asking
[21:16] <popey> last i tried you couldnt
[21:17] <popey> but maybe i am not an expert with clonezilla
[21:17] <j0nr> I don't know...
[21:17] <j0nr> I did wonder that...so thought maybe I should do my partitioning ready for ubuntu first
[21:18] <directhex> AlanBell: protip: uinput is an easy API which lets you create keystrokes.
[21:18] <directhex> kernel level
[21:18] <popey> i wouldnt do that either j0nr
[21:18] <AlanBell> thanks directhex
[21:18] <popey> you have no backups and you're about to do something to the partition table
[21:18] <j0nr> but say I use the built in create restore functionality, will that have the same problem if I then subsequently shrink the windows partiton and need to restore it later?
[21:19] <popey> depends if the restore tool has options for which partition to install onto or whether it just blats the disk
[21:19] <j0nr> :/
[21:20] <AlanBell> directhex: that looks perfect. I am thinking of piping speech dispatcher output as text into IRC and having keystrokes go the other way, so you can control an Ubuntu desktop GUI over IRC
[21:20] <directhex> AlanBell: use http://lang-world.com/cakemote-mythtv/bd-remote-mythtv-svg.tar.gz as a sample piece of code for emitting uinput events via python
[22:03] <popey> grrr, screen still doesn't update properly
[22:03] <popey> might go and poke a developer tomorrow
[22:07] <swat_> popey: really? screen? like the shell program screen?
[22:13] <popey> no
[22:15] <bigcalm> popey: got a moment and an iOS device with you? :)
[22:16] <popey> ya
[22:18] <bigcalm> I can't see a problem via my Android devices
[22:24] <ejos> Can i save my iptable rules to /etc/network/iptables
[22:24] <gord> haven't even managed to say hello to popey all day, he's hiding i'm sure
[22:34] <bigcalm> gord: have you ventured into foreign lands as well?
[22:38] <gord> bigcalm, yup, uds and platform sprint, always at both me
[22:40] <bigcalm> Funky
[22:40] <bigcalm> Are things going to be ready for April?
[22:43] <popey> i said hello to gord twice today ☹
[22:51] <gord> i've not seen any hellos!
[22:51] <gord> popey, did you manage to bring some pg tips with you? completely forgot, can only live on starbucks for so long (one day)
[22:52] <gord> bigcalm, sure why not ;) precice is pretty good atm even, especially the power management work, doubled my battery life
[22:52] <gord> used my laptop all day, building unity and stressing out the cpu, only plugged in for half an hour before lunch
[22:54] <awilkins> I put it in a VM, idle inspection didn't reveal any really obvious differences from Oneiric, but I suppose that's to be expected from an LTS
[22:56] <popey> gord: sadly forgot
[22:56] <gord> dang, oh well, home in a few days
[22:56] <gord> for some of us ;)
[22:58] <popey> bah
[22:58] <popey> i have a week
[22:59] <Nafallo> popey: it's fine. you have me here :-)
[23:01] <AlanBell> did you find somewhere to dance?
[23:03] <mgdm> "we can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind..."
[23:09] <bigcalm> It's always best if you do the safety dance
[23:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Alistair McKinlay] Tech Predictions Review: 2011 - http://www.10people.co.uk/index.php/2012/01/tech-predictions-review-2011/
[23:15] <mattt> any recommendations for/against learning python 4th edition (o'reilly) ?
[23:16] <davmor2> Evening slackers
[23:17] <Oli> mattt: I have the 4th pocket edition. Also had the third ed. Superb little references for beginners and all you need if you're already a programmer (and understand concepts like inheritance, arrays, etc)
[23:18] <mattt> Oli: ah, not the pocket reference, the full blown book :)
[23:19] <Oli> mattt: But to be perfectly honest, I'd probably go for the version that avoids mentioning anything about Py3k. It's not ready for general use. The language is, the rest of the world is not and if you try and use it in any meaningful project at the moment, you just end up wanting to import libraries you can't because they haven't been ported.
[23:22] <mattt> Oli: yeah, can't find a 2nd hand copy of 3rd edition on amazon :(  2nd edition is plenty cheap, but covers python 2.3 ... surely that'd be a problem?
[23:26] <Oli> mattt: Pffft. I doubt you'd have a problem. I think you'd get the overriding gist of what Python is about. You'd be missing conditional expressions (which are frankly quite messy, eg: v = a if b else c), some information on the with statement and some very obvious string functions. The rest of the differences between 2.3 and 2.5/6/7 are probably edge case for most people and won't be in a book for any length.
[23:28] <Oli> If you're buying a book to learn Python, it will do well. If you're buying a book to learn every nook and cranny of Python, buy a newer edition.
[23:30] <Oli> But buy the pocket ref as well. 4th ed does manage to split up 2.6 and 3.x well. I expect there's a 5th ed out now which does the same with 2.7
[23:30] <gordonjcp> yup
[23:30] <mattt> Oli: nah, i'm more interested in general concepts, not edge cases :)
[23:30] <gordonjcp> 12.04 has *exactly* the same graphics corruption
[23:31] <ali1234> which driver?
[23:31] <mattt> Oli: thanks for the info, that helps quite a bit
[23:32] <ali1234> mattt: what do you want to do with python?
[23:33] <mattt> ali1234: system programming/scripting, and i use django a bit ...
[23:33] <gordonjcp> put it this way
[23:34] <gordonjcp> Python 3 has finally pissed me off enough to ditch Arch for Ubuntu
[23:34] <mattt> oh yeah, arch is on python 3 aren't they :/
[23:34] <ali1234> hah, bleeding edge too bleeding for you now?
[23:35] <mattt> thanks for the help guys, going to nab a used 2nd edition from amazong
[23:35] <mattt> *amazon
[23:40] <Oli> mattt: If you've got a few hours where you just want to sit down and learn by rote, there's always "Learn Python The Hard Way". Despite the dubious name, it's actually pretty decent. And free for the online version with a multitude of purchasing options if you want a different format: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/
[23:40] <gordonjcp> ali1234: well it's more that I have to put something together that will be mostly deployed on Ubuntu
[23:41] <gordonjcp> ali1234: so I have to put up with the horribly old packages that Ubuntu ships
[23:42] <BigRedS> Oh man, I just stuck Oneiric on a staging server because such a *new* version of python/django was required
[23:44] <Oli> BigRedS: I did that last month. Jumped from 9.10 to 11.10 (4 upgrades) on two servers in two hours. That was bracing.
[23:45] <Oli> BigRedS: And because I live life on the edge, those servers were both production servers. There's nothing quite like fixing Django deprecations at 3am :)
[23:46] <gordonjcp> when I upgrade my server to Debian Obsolescent from Debian Moribund I'm basically going to scrap my website and start again from scratch
[23:46] <gordonjcp> it's on such an old version of Django
[23:46] <BigRedS> gord: yeah, I came from Debian Modern straight through to Ubuntu ohmygoshimbleeding
[23:46]  * BigRedS might be classed a 'luddite'
[23:47] <gord> fix yer tab complete
[23:47] <BigRedS> Oli: Ah, i was just trying to get somebody's code to work on Squeeze with as few Testing bodges as possible, and about five hours in scrapped it and started over with the actual versions he was using
[23:47] <gord> last spoke first, not alphabetical
[23:47] <BigRedS> gah. New, less good, IRC client
[23:47] <BigRedS> gordonjcp: ^^^
[23:48] <BigRedS> well, new, still-defautly-configured irc client
[23:50] <Oli> This is perhaps a lesson to use virtualenv for Django. I know I need to but it's comforting to know there are others in the same boat :)
[23:59] <BigRedS> I just use virtual machines for everything now :)