/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/13/#ubuntu-tv.txt

wizbitjeeze there is a channel already00:16
wizbitmythtv ftw00:16
tgm4883...00:23
tgm4883ok00:23
wagnerrptgm4883: did you ever recall seeing a 'dustybin' in the mythtv-users channel years back?01:02
wagnerrpabout once a week he would come in, taking about some new device that would be the "perfect frontend"01:03
wagnerrpand he would keep pestering iamlindoro, so iamlindoro would start banning him for longer and longer durations01:03
wagnerrpwell at some point way back, 'dustybin' decided to change his name to 'wizbit'01:04
L-----Dhey wagnerrp01:05
wagnerrphello01:06
tgm4883wagnerrp, I don't remember him01:42
nerochiaroSaviq: Kaleo: pushed some more fixes to the shell branch. would be nice to get some feedback or even a review. In the meantime I'm moving on with other tasks, but I'll make them on top of that branch as having shaping makes it easier to debug and test.11:41
nerochiaroSaviq: Kaleo: and by shell branch i mean lp:~unity-2d-team/unity-2d/unity-2d-shell-shaped/11:41
Kaleook11:47
Saviqnerochiaro, I have one thing already: don't set the shell size to its childrens' width11:52
Saviqnerochiaro, just make it fullscreen all the time11:52
nerochiaroSaviq: sounds good11:55
nerochiaroSaviq: done12:01
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nerochiaroKaleo: is there a specific reason why in your Unity2dPanel thickness patch you don't keep setting fixed[Width|Height] to a value matching the thickness ?14:53
Saviqnerochiaro, he's flying right now14:55
nerochiaroSaviq: ah14:55
nerochiaroSaviq: i'll poke him monday i guess then14:55
Saviqnerochiaro, can you point me at the code? maybe I will find something?14:55
nerochiaroSaviq: check PanelManager::instantiatePanel14:57
nerochiarobasically he replaced setThickness for setFixedHeight14:57
nerochiaroi think both are needed14:57
nerochiaro(or at least putting both solve the issue)14:57
Saviqwhy would you need to set height? it's anchored to top and bottom of the shell?15:01
Saviqnerochiaro, ^?15:03
nerochiaroSaviq: well, i don't understand exactly where the bug comes from, but if the panel doesn't have the height fixed whenever it's showing some menu in it it will expand vertically to maybe 1/3 of the screen, and never come back to its normal size15:04
nerochiaroSaviq: you can try it by launching unity-2d-panel from the shell+shape branch15:05
nerochiaroand i just verified that by adding a setFixedHeight stops the problem from happening15:06
nerochiaroso for now i'm going on with that workaround and working on the actual task (changing the size of the dash with the window menu buttons)15:06
Saviqoh that15:06
SaviqsetFixedHeight looks required for the panel, yeah15:07
nerochiarodo you understand why, though ?15:07
Saviqnot yet15:07
nerochiarook, i'll keep fixed size for now. let me know if you manage to find out what's going on15:08
Saviqnerochiaro, so I'm thinking WM does something to the panel, and setThickness doesn't set the maximum / minimum height15:16
Saviqand I'm thinking maybe it should15:16
nerochiaroSaviq: i'm not sure about the WM, it usually leaves alone the dock windows, and the panel is a dock window15:17
Saviqnerochiaro, thinking again... indicators?15:18
nerochiaroSaviq: indicators or xembedded legacy tray icons ?15:18
Saviqyup, one of them15:18
Saviqlet me kill remmina15:18
Saviqactually the menu bar15:19
Saviqif I hover the panel (reveal the menus)15:19
Saviqthen it expands15:19
nerochiaroSaviq: yep, or press the alt key15:19
Saviqreproducible 100%15:19
Saviqyup, exactly15:19
SaviqI'll have a look15:19
nerochiaroSaviq: yes. but my original question was "what does it expand vertically?"15:20
nerochiarobecause setting fixed height seems like a workaround for the real issue: the menubar expanding vertically15:20
Saviqnerochiaro, the menu bar applet must be broken - it expands for some reason15:20
Saviqand forces the panel to expand to fit it15:20
nerochiaroright, makes sense. so the real fix should be in the menubar applet15:20
Saviqyup15:21
nerochiarowe're just hiding the problem with fixedheight15:21
SaviqI'll have a look15:21
nerochiarothank you15:21
mhall119re16:54
mhall119http://www.flickr.com/photos/nixiepixel/6676837595/18:03
LABcrabHey!  How does Ubuntu TV work?18:32
LABcrabBut my satellite provider makes me get those clunky PVRs!18:39
mhall119LABcrab: what was shown at CES was a demo, not production ready code18:39
LABcrabmhall119: Oh, well, hello again.  :)  Can't Ubuntu TV be used on a PC with, say, 24 inches LED monitor?18:39
mhall119the features made for it are being merged back into Unity itself18:40
LABcrabWindows Media Centre or Front Row much?18:40
mhall119yes, you will be able to run it from a PC18:40
mhall119in fact, it was being run from a PC at the show18:40
mhall119but again, its concept code at this point18:40
mhall119you can try it out though, the code is available18:41
LABcrabIs it like sudo apt-get install ubuntu-tv?18:41
mhall119http://www.ubuntu.com/tv/contributors18:41
mhall119there's a PPA run by someone else, you can get it that way if you want, but those packages aren't from Canonical18:41
mhall119LABcrab: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/how-to-install-ubuntu-tv-right-now-via-ppa/18:42
LABcrabFor example, Telus here uses Microsoft.  i hope it doesn't mean fragmentation, such as being forced to use one platform or another.18:42
mhall119LABcrab: it'll be up to the OEMs and content providers to either agree to standards or not18:43
mhall119Ubuntu is just trying to offer them something to agree on18:44
LABcrabSuch as being able to choose an OS?18:44
LABcrabi also don't mind little devices like the Apple TV.  They're pretty and small compared to the bulky PVRs.18:45
mhall119yes, or at least an interface that can be implemented by a third party oS18:45
LABcrabOr even the concept of using an app for each provider, although i prefer native applications.18:46
mhall119Ubuntu TV wants to provide a single app for each media type, not each media source18:49
mhall119instead, there would be a movie "Lens" in Unity, and then each provider would have their own "Scope" to feed into it18:49
LABcrabSo the TV will be a computer in the future?18:50
mhall119yes18:52
mhall119some already are18:52
mhall119some TVs (the Bravia I think) already run Linux by default18:52
wagnerrpa good number of TVs already run some blend of Linux mixed with busybox18:52
wagnerrpdo some searching, youll find a bunch of lawsuits of BB vs. X TV manufacturer18:53
wagnerrpfor violating GPL and not releasing their source18:53
LABcrab"Smart" TVs.  Yeah, there's already fragmentation.  Sony has this type of TV, LG has this type, Samsung this, Dynex that.  Apps for one TV won't work on another, necessarily.18:54
davillasounds like typical linux distro :)18:54
LABcrabNot really.  That's like saying "Android with HTC Sense" versus "Android with LiveScape" etc.18:55
mhall119LABcrab: that's what Ubuntu TV hopes to fix, one platform across multiple devices and multiple content providers18:57
mhall119even better, the same platform will be available on PCs, and soon on tablets, phones, and in-vehicle-infotainment devices18:58
LABcrabTrue.18:58
mhall119which means Netflix only needs to write one app for Ubuntu18:59
mhall119and they get it everywhere18:59
LABcrabSweet.18:59
LABcrabBut even with smartphones, it's uncertain whether Windows will return as a leader.18:59
mhall119they certainly have an uphill climb19:02
LABcrabi'm pretty confident they will shake things up.19:02
LABcrabAs long as they don't just have one or two phones per carrier, versus half a dozen of BlackBerries and dozens of Androids.19:02
LABcrabThey tend to have few phones.  Unfortunately, no support for video calling yet.19:03
wagnerrpmhall119: the problem with that concept is it means ubuntu tv could only be distributed in binary form, and the hardware would need to be locked to signed binaries19:04
LABcrabIn all of this, why is Ubuntu focusing on TVs instead of, say, smartphones?19:05
wagnerrplest someone recompiled the netflix app to bypass DRM19:05
wagnerrpor recompiled the X server to fake direct rendering, and again bypass DRM19:05
LABcrabFree software purists can either choose not to use Netflix, or buy DRM free movies.19:06
wagnerrpits got nothing to do with being a purist19:07
wagnerrpDRM is either implemented on a locked down system outside the control of the user, or is implemented by someone who doesnt know what theyre doing19:07
mhall119wagnerrp: why is that?19:08
wagnerrpthe whole reason Microsoft spent all that time developing their protected video path is to prevent any user-run application from intercepting the video19:08
LABcrabBut what about the issue of recording movies?19:08
wagnerrpwhat issue?19:09
LABcrabShould recording copies be legal, but not distributing them and/or keeping them longer than entitled to?19:09
LABcrabCopyright?19:09
mhall119wagnerrp: true, but I'm hoping the content creators will come around to realizing that DRM costs more than it's worth and opt for more, cheaper downloads instead19:09
LABcrabGood point.19:10
wagnerrpATSC and clear QAM is unencrypted, and you can do whatever you want with them, copyright or otherwise19:10
LABcrabDVDs can be copied easy as pie.19:10
LABcrabAnd the good ol' days of recordable cable TV.19:10
mhall119wagnerrp: the music industry has already accepted teh futility of DRM19:10
wagnerrp'copy freely' cable content is marked with no DRM, so a cablecard tuner will allow you to do whatever you want with them, copyright or otherwise19:10
mhall119hopefully the movie/tv industry follows suit soon19:11
LABcrabi don't know if my PVR has DRM.19:11
davillain about 10 years, maybe19:11
wagnerrpWMC is the only application currently allowed to handle DRM'd cable at the moment, since theyre the only system with guaranteed protection from the card all the way to the display19:11
mhall119probably not, because you have no real way of getting stuff off your PVR19:12
wagnerrpand as far as DVDs and blurays, you cant copy them without breaching DRM (and the DMCA)19:12
LABcrabOh a new Google now?19:12
LABcrabSo what's the point of a PVR that you have to carry around to show the shows to other people?19:12
mhall119recording stuff to watch at home later19:12
LABcrabThat's not like a VCR where you just take the tapes!  Which are way smaller than the PVR, by the way.19:12
LABcrabmhall119: Which requires the PVR to be on 24/7/365.19:13
mhall119LABcrab: which is why your PVR probably doesn't bother with DRM19:13
mhall119LABcrab: yes, most of them are19:13
LABcrabUnless it's on a timer controlled by the TV.19:15
wagnerrpLABcrab: for instance, the late model tivos... they may run linux, but linux never has access to the content in unencrypted form19:15
wagnerrpall decryption, decoding, and compositing is done within a controlled path in the video hardware19:15
LABcrabDoesn't HDMI show an SD picture if a device doesn't support PVP?19:15
wagnerrpno, thats something called the 'image constraint token', which is as yet rarely used19:16
wagnerrpand is effectively independent from HDMI19:16
wagnerrpHDMI supports HDCP, and if certain formats such as bluray have the ICT active, and the player cannot authenticate an HDCP pathway all the way to the TV, it will downscale the content19:17
LABcrabTo 480p?19:17
wagnerrpsomething like that19:17
wagnerrpas far as i know, there are only a handful of movies that currently activate that19:18
LABcrabSo some of them still work in 1080p?19:18
wagnerrpmost studios have announced they have no intention of ever enabling that feature19:19
LABcrabDoes that mean 0p or 480p or 1080p?19:19
wagnerrpwithout that flag, the player will operate as normal19:20
wagnerrpwith that flag, it will downscale any unencrypted digital or analog outputs to something like 480p, i dont know if thats the actual resolution19:20
LABcrabOkay, so you're telling me it's a good thing, that most content can play at 1080p?19:21
wagnerrpas far as normal behavior, at least my PS3 will not display anything at all over HDMI without HDCP19:21
LABcrabWith or without HDCP?19:21
wagnerrpat least that was the case last time i tried it in late 200619:21
wagnerrplooks like its actually 540p19:22
wagnerrpso its quartered19:22
LABcrabqHD.19:22
wagnerrpanyway, it all comes down to the same issue as when i was talking about form factor (the smarts being a removable module on the back side of the TV, rather than embedded)19:24
wagnerrpis ubuntutv is intended for the mass market that doesnt know and doesnt care about DRM, so long as their stuff works19:24
wagnerrpor is it intended for the tinkerers19:24
wagnerrpthere is news on tech sites all the time about people jailbreaking their smart phones19:27
wagnerrpbut i would bet the number of owners who actually do so is probably somewhere around 5-10%19:28
wagnerrpand likely a good portion of them never bother to actually load anything 3rd party on after doing so19:28
LABcrabExcept for Netflix.19:44
wagnerrphow is netflix different?19:46
wagnerrpnetflix streaming exists on silverlight, which means OSX (with a closed source display interface) and Windows (with a closed source display interface and protected path)19:48
wagnerrpand it exists on a whole plethora of locked down systems from game consoles, to locked down STBs, to locked down cell phones19:49
wagnerrpwhile some of those platforms can be jailbroken, doing so causes the netflix application to cease function19:54
LABcrabWhat about Android?19:56
wagnerrpthe application detects an unauthenticated firmware, and refuses to function19:57
LABcrab:(20:00
wagnerrpwhich is what every good consumer's reaction should be after grasping the consequences of DRM20:01
LABcrabIn several cases, it seems nothing can be done about it.20:02
wagnerrpalthough at least in this instance, DRM is used to protect content available through a subscription service20:02
wagnerrpas opposed to something like DVD/Bluray which is your own, purchased, personal property20:03
tgm4883wagnerrp, I wasn't following the whole conversation, but my cyanogenmod based rom plays netflix20:11
wagnerrpoh? everything i had heard in the past said video players, ebook readers, and the like shut down on jailbroken phones20:12
tgm4883wagnerrp, nope, works fine here20:13
tgm4883I just verified20:13
wagnerrpthe only think i could find in reference was some kludgy work around for getting netflix to work again on a broken iphone20:13
wagnerrp*thing20:13
tgm4883wagnerrp, I just had to install it from the market20:18
tgm4883pretty simple20:18
tgm4883hulu works as well20:18
wagnerrpno one at hulu really seems to care about making a secure system20:22
wagnerrpits like someone over there high up realizes that if someone actually wants to rip them off, they going to instead go to somewhere else with higher quality20:22
wagnerrpso whatever security you have through flash/rtmpe is just a 'good show' for the content owners20:22
=== Alcine is now known as jalcine
LABcrabCiao room!21:26
=== rsalveti` is now known as rsalveti_
=== rsalveti_ is now known as rsalveti

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