[00:16] <wizbit> jeeze there is a channel already
[00:16] <wizbit> mythtv ftw
[00:23] <tgm4883> ...
[00:23] <tgm4883> ok
[01:02] <wagnerrp> tgm4883: did you ever recall seeing a 'dustybin' in the mythtv-users channel years back?
[01:03] <wagnerrp> about once a week he would come in, taking about some new device that would be the "perfect frontend"
[01:03] <wagnerrp> and he would keep pestering iamlindoro, so iamlindoro would start banning him for longer and longer durations
[01:04] <wagnerrp> well at some point way back, 'dustybin' decided to change his name to 'wizbit'
[01:05] <L-----D> hey wagnerrp
[01:06] <wagnerrp> hello
[01:42] <tgm4883> wagnerrp, I don't remember him
[11:41] <nerochiaro> Saviq: Kaleo: pushed some more fixes to the shell branch. would be nice to get some feedback or even a review. In the meantime I'm moving on with other tasks, but I'll make them on top of that branch as having shaping makes it easier to debug and test.
[11:41] <nerochiaro> Saviq: Kaleo: and by shell branch i mean lp:~unity-2d-team/unity-2d/unity-2d-shell-shaped/
[11:47] <Kaleo> ok
[11:52] <Saviq> nerochiaro, I have one thing already: don't set the shell size to its childrens' width
[11:52] <Saviq> nerochiaro, just make it fullscreen all the time
[11:55] <nerochiaro> Saviq: sounds good
[12:01] <nerochiaro> Saviq: done
[14:53] <nerochiaro> Kaleo: is there a specific reason why in your Unity2dPanel thickness patch you don't keep setting fixed[Width|Height] to a value matching the thickness ?
[14:55] <Saviq> nerochiaro, he's flying right now
[14:55] <nerochiaro> Saviq: ah
[14:55] <nerochiaro> Saviq: i'll poke him monday i guess then
[14:55] <Saviq> nerochiaro, can you point me at the code? maybe I will find something?
[14:57] <nerochiaro> Saviq: check PanelManager::instantiatePanel
[14:57] <nerochiaro> basically he replaced setThickness for setFixedHeight
[14:57] <nerochiaro> i think both are needed
[14:57] <nerochiaro> (or at least putting both solve the issue)
[15:01] <Saviq> why would you need to set height? it's anchored to top and bottom of the shell?
[15:03] <Saviq> nerochiaro, ^?
[15:04] <nerochiaro> Saviq: well, i don't understand exactly where the bug comes from, but if the panel doesn't have the height fixed whenever it's showing some menu in it it will expand vertically to maybe 1/3 of the screen, and never come back to its normal size
[15:05] <nerochiaro> Saviq: you can try it by launching unity-2d-panel from the shell+shape branch
[15:06] <nerochiaro> and i just verified that by adding a setFixedHeight stops the problem from happening
[15:06] <nerochiaro> so for now i'm going on with that workaround and working on the actual task (changing the size of the dash with the window menu buttons)
[15:06] <Saviq> oh that
[15:07] <Saviq> setFixedHeight looks required for the panel, yeah
[15:07] <nerochiaro> do you understand why, though ?
[15:07] <Saviq> not yet
[15:08] <nerochiaro> ok, i'll keep fixed size for now. let me know if you manage to find out what's going on
[15:16] <Saviq> nerochiaro, so I'm thinking WM does something to the panel, and setThickness doesn't set the maximum / minimum height
[15:16] <Saviq> and I'm thinking maybe it should
[15:17] <nerochiaro> Saviq: i'm not sure about the WM, it usually leaves alone the dock windows, and the panel is a dock window
[15:18] <Saviq> nerochiaro, thinking again... indicators?
[15:18] <nerochiaro> Saviq: indicators or xembedded legacy tray icons ?
[15:18] <Saviq> yup, one of them
[15:18] <Saviq> let me kill remmina
[15:19] <Saviq> actually the menu bar
[15:19] <Saviq> if I hover the panel (reveal the menus)
[15:19] <Saviq> then it expands
[15:19] <nerochiaro> Saviq: yep, or press the alt key
[15:19] <Saviq> reproducible 100%
[15:19] <Saviq> yup, exactly
[15:19] <Saviq> I'll have a look
[15:20] <nerochiaro> Saviq: yes. but my original question was "what does it expand vertically?"
[15:20] <nerochiaro> because setting fixed height seems like a workaround for the real issue: the menubar expanding vertically
[15:20] <Saviq> nerochiaro, the menu bar applet must be broken - it expands for some reason
[15:20] <Saviq> and forces the panel to expand to fit it
[15:20] <nerochiaro> right, makes sense. so the real fix should be in the menubar applet
[15:21] <Saviq> yup
[15:21] <nerochiaro> we're just hiding the problem with fixedheight
[15:21] <Saviq> I'll have a look
[15:21] <nerochiaro> thank you
[16:54] <mhall119> re
[18:03] <mhall119> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nixiepixel/6676837595/
[18:32] <LABcrab> Hey!  How does Ubuntu TV work?
[18:39] <LABcrab> But my satellite provider makes me get those clunky PVRs!
[18:39] <mhall119> LABcrab: what was shown at CES was a demo, not production ready code
[18:39] <LABcrab> mhall119: Oh, well, hello again.  :)  Can't Ubuntu TV be used on a PC with, say, 24 inches LED monitor?
[18:40] <mhall119> the features made for it are being merged back into Unity itself
[18:40] <LABcrab> Windows Media Centre or Front Row much?
[18:40] <mhall119> yes, you will be able to run it from a PC
[18:40] <mhall119> in fact, it was being run from a PC at the show
[18:40] <mhall119> but again, its concept code at this point
[18:41] <mhall119> you can try it out though, the code is available
[18:41] <LABcrab> Is it like sudo apt-get install ubuntu-tv?
[18:41] <mhall119> http://www.ubuntu.com/tv/contributors
[18:41] <mhall119> there's a PPA run by someone else, you can get it that way if you want, but those packages aren't from Canonical
[18:42] <mhall119> LABcrab: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/how-to-install-ubuntu-tv-right-now-via-ppa/
[18:42] <LABcrab> For example, Telus here uses Microsoft.  i hope it doesn't mean fragmentation, such as being forced to use one platform or another.
[18:43] <mhall119> LABcrab: it'll be up to the OEMs and content providers to either agree to standards or not
[18:44] <mhall119> Ubuntu is just trying to offer them something to agree on
[18:44] <LABcrab> Such as being able to choose an OS?
[18:45] <LABcrab> i also don't mind little devices like the Apple TV.  They're pretty and small compared to the bulky PVRs.
[18:45] <mhall119> yes, or at least an interface that can be implemented by a third party oS
[18:46] <LABcrab> Or even the concept of using an app for each provider, although i prefer native applications.
[18:49] <mhall119> Ubuntu TV wants to provide a single app for each media type, not each media source
[18:49] <mhall119> instead, there would be a movie "Lens" in Unity, and then each provider would have their own "Scope" to feed into it
[18:50] <LABcrab> So the TV will be a computer in the future?
[18:52] <mhall119> yes
[18:52] <mhall119> some already are
[18:52] <mhall119> some TVs (the Bravia I think) already run Linux by default
[18:52] <wagnerrp> a good number of TVs already run some blend of Linux mixed with busybox
[18:53] <wagnerrp> do some searching, youll find a bunch of lawsuits of BB vs. X TV manufacturer
[18:53] <wagnerrp> for violating GPL and not releasing their source
[18:54] <LABcrab> "Smart" TVs.  Yeah, there's already fragmentation.  Sony has this type of TV, LG has this type, Samsung this, Dynex that.  Apps for one TV won't work on another, necessarily.
[18:54] <davilla> sounds like typical linux distro :)
[18:55] <LABcrab> Not really.  That's like saying "Android with HTC Sense" versus "Android with LiveScape" etc.
[18:57] <mhall119> LABcrab: that's what Ubuntu TV hopes to fix, one platform across multiple devices and multiple content providers
[18:58] <mhall119> even better, the same platform will be available on PCs, and soon on tablets, phones, and in-vehicle-infotainment devices
[18:58] <LABcrab> True.
[18:59] <mhall119> which means Netflix only needs to write one app for Ubuntu
[18:59] <mhall119> and they get it everywhere
[18:59] <LABcrab> Sweet.
[18:59] <LABcrab> But even with smartphones, it's uncertain whether Windows will return as a leader.
[19:02] <mhall119> they certainly have an uphill climb
[19:02] <LABcrab> i'm pretty confident they will shake things up.
[19:02] <LABcrab> As long as they don't just have one or two phones per carrier, versus half a dozen of BlackBerries and dozens of Androids.
[19:03] <LABcrab> They tend to have few phones.  Unfortunately, no support for video calling yet.
[19:04] <wagnerrp> mhall119: the problem with that concept is it means ubuntu tv could only be distributed in binary form, and the hardware would need to be locked to signed binaries
[19:05] <LABcrab> In all of this, why is Ubuntu focusing on TVs instead of, say, smartphones?
[19:05] <wagnerrp> lest someone recompiled the netflix app to bypass DRM
[19:05] <wagnerrp> or recompiled the X server to fake direct rendering, and again bypass DRM
[19:06] <LABcrab> Free software purists can either choose not to use Netflix, or buy DRM free movies.
[19:07] <wagnerrp> its got nothing to do with being a purist
[19:07] <wagnerrp> DRM is either implemented on a locked down system outside the control of the user, or is implemented by someone who doesnt know what theyre doing
[19:08] <mhall119> wagnerrp: why is that?
[19:08] <wagnerrp> the whole reason Microsoft spent all that time developing their protected video path is to prevent any user-run application from intercepting the video
[19:08] <LABcrab> But what about the issue of recording movies?
[19:09] <wagnerrp> what issue?
[19:09] <LABcrab> Should recording copies be legal, but not distributing them and/or keeping them longer than entitled to?
[19:09] <LABcrab> Copyright?
[19:09] <mhall119> wagnerrp: true, but I'm hoping the content creators will come around to realizing that DRM costs more than it's worth and opt for more, cheaper downloads instead
[19:10] <LABcrab> Good point.
[19:10] <wagnerrp> ATSC and clear QAM is unencrypted, and you can do whatever you want with them, copyright or otherwise
[19:10] <LABcrab> DVDs can be copied easy as pie.
[19:10] <LABcrab> And the good ol' days of recordable cable TV.
[19:10] <mhall119> wagnerrp: the music industry has already accepted teh futility of DRM
[19:10] <wagnerrp> 'copy freely' cable content is marked with no DRM, so a cablecard tuner will allow you to do whatever you want with them, copyright or otherwise
[19:11] <mhall119> hopefully the movie/tv industry follows suit soon
[19:11] <LABcrab> i don't know if my PVR has DRM.
[19:11] <davilla> in about 10 years, maybe
[19:11] <wagnerrp> WMC is the only application currently allowed to handle DRM'd cable at the moment, since theyre the only system with guaranteed protection from the card all the way to the display
[19:12] <mhall119> probably not, because you have no real way of getting stuff off your PVR
[19:12] <wagnerrp> and as far as DVDs and blurays, you cant copy them without breaching DRM (and the DMCA)
[19:12] <LABcrab> Oh a new Google now?
[19:12] <LABcrab> So what's the point of a PVR that you have to carry around to show the shows to other people?
[19:12] <mhall119> recording stuff to watch at home later
[19:12] <LABcrab> That's not like a VCR where you just take the tapes!  Which are way smaller than the PVR, by the way.
[19:13] <LABcrab> mhall119: Which requires the PVR to be on 24/7/365.
[19:13] <mhall119> LABcrab: which is why your PVR probably doesn't bother with DRM
[19:13] <mhall119> LABcrab: yes, most of them are
[19:15] <LABcrab> Unless it's on a timer controlled by the TV.
[19:15] <wagnerrp> LABcrab: for instance, the late model tivos... they may run linux, but linux never has access to the content in unencrypted form
[19:15] <wagnerrp> all decryption, decoding, and compositing is done within a controlled path in the video hardware
[19:15] <LABcrab> Doesn't HDMI show an SD picture if a device doesn't support PVP?
[19:16] <wagnerrp> no, thats something called the 'image constraint token', which is as yet rarely used
[19:16] <wagnerrp> and is effectively independent from HDMI
[19:17] <wagnerrp> HDMI supports HDCP, and if certain formats such as bluray have the ICT active, and the player cannot authenticate an HDCP pathway all the way to the TV, it will downscale the content
[19:17] <LABcrab> To 480p?
[19:17] <wagnerrp> something like that
[19:18] <wagnerrp> as far as i know, there are only a handful of movies that currently activate that
[19:18] <LABcrab> So some of them still work in 1080p?
[19:19] <wagnerrp> most studios have announced they have no intention of ever enabling that feature
[19:19] <LABcrab> Does that mean 0p or 480p or 1080p?
[19:20] <wagnerrp> without that flag, the player will operate as normal
[19:20] <wagnerrp> with that flag, it will downscale any unencrypted digital or analog outputs to something like 480p, i dont know if thats the actual resolution
[19:21] <LABcrab> Okay, so you're telling me it's a good thing, that most content can play at 1080p?
[19:21] <wagnerrp> as far as normal behavior, at least my PS3 will not display anything at all over HDMI without HDCP
[19:21] <LABcrab> With or without HDCP?
[19:21] <wagnerrp> at least that was the case last time i tried it in late 2006
[19:22] <wagnerrp> looks like its actually 540p
[19:22] <wagnerrp> so its quartered
[19:22] <LABcrab> qHD.
[19:24] <wagnerrp> anyway, it all comes down to the same issue as when i was talking about form factor (the smarts being a removable module on the back side of the TV, rather than embedded)
[19:24] <wagnerrp> is ubuntutv is intended for the mass market that doesnt know and doesnt care about DRM, so long as their stuff works
[19:24] <wagnerrp> or is it intended for the tinkerers
[19:27] <wagnerrp> there is news on tech sites all the time about people jailbreaking their smart phones
[19:28] <wagnerrp> but i would bet the number of owners who actually do so is probably somewhere around 5-10%
[19:28] <wagnerrp> and likely a good portion of them never bother to actually load anything 3rd party on after doing so
[19:44] <LABcrab> Except for Netflix.
[19:46] <wagnerrp> how is netflix different?
[19:48] <wagnerrp> netflix streaming exists on silverlight, which means OSX (with a closed source display interface) and Windows (with a closed source display interface and protected path)
[19:49] <wagnerrp> and it exists on a whole plethora of locked down systems from game consoles, to locked down STBs, to locked down cell phones
[19:54] <wagnerrp> while some of those platforms can be jailbroken, doing so causes the netflix application to cease function
[19:56] <LABcrab> What about Android?
[19:57] <wagnerrp> the application detects an unauthenticated firmware, and refuses to function
[20:00] <LABcrab> :(
[20:01] <wagnerrp> which is what every good consumer's reaction should be after grasping the consequences of DRM
[20:02] <LABcrab> In several cases, it seems nothing can be done about it.
[20:02] <wagnerrp> although at least in this instance, DRM is used to protect content available through a subscription service
[20:03] <wagnerrp> as opposed to something like DVD/Bluray which is your own, purchased, personal property
[20:11] <tgm4883> wagnerrp, I wasn't following the whole conversation, but my cyanogenmod based rom plays netflix
[20:12] <wagnerrp> oh? everything i had heard in the past said video players, ebook readers, and the like shut down on jailbroken phones
[20:13] <tgm4883> wagnerrp, nope, works fine here
[20:13] <tgm4883> I just verified
[20:13] <wagnerrp> the only think i could find in reference was some kludgy work around for getting netflix to work again on a broken iphone
[20:13] <wagnerrp> *thing
[20:18] <tgm4883> wagnerrp, I just had to install it from the market
[20:18] <tgm4883> pretty simple
[20:18] <tgm4883> hulu works as well
[20:22] <wagnerrp> no one at hulu really seems to care about making a secure system
[20:22] <wagnerrp> its like someone over there high up realizes that if someone actually wants to rip them off, they going to instead go to somewhere else with higher quality
[20:22] <wagnerrp> so whatever security you have through flash/rtmpe is just a 'good show' for the content owners
[21:26] <LABcrab> Ciao room!