[00:00] <len> Ok Astraljava, That is useful... I take it then that there are 4 work flows or four sections of work flows?
[00:02] <len> For example in the audio section There are over 20 ways of using things... seems like a lot of metas to me.
[00:03] <len> May be just one that covers it all. Then a menu that shows whats needed for each?
[00:22] <astraljava> len: My understanding is that all the different work flows are just arguments for having some applications installed through various tasks in the installer.
[00:45] <len> astraljava: Ok, so four sets of packages, lots of uses within each install.
[00:46] <len> I'm thinking I need to test more of that stuff... Like can the job actually be done with only the software provided.
[00:47] <len> This would mean only installing one of the four sets and trying out each task...
[00:50] <astraljava> len: Would be good if you could test the thought behind the task, yes.
[00:51] <len> astraljava: Waiting for all the software to be included. Lots of stuff missing still.
[00:52] <astraljava> Yep. I'm turning in, it's close to 3 am. here. Thanks for testing the stuff! Have a good night!
[04:06] <ScottL> did an interesting experiment tonight to check a few things for updating the seeds
[04:06] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox/#package_size_testing
[04:07] <ScottL> mainly i wanted to compare the installation impact of a few different packages (file managers, video editors, disc burners)
[04:07] <ScottL> for example, brasero appears to be a very, very small installation compared to k3b
[04:08] <ScottL> and since brasero is basically installed when nautilus is installed we would actually get brasero "for free"
[04:49] <len> ScottL: so do we have a list of packages yet? I'm thinking in terms of file mangers and editors etc. 
[04:50] <len> With where Gnome is going (3ish) is nautilus going to become incompatible with what we are doing ?
[04:53] <len> I'm thinking one of the big things with unity is this whole full screen everything and hearing gnome 3 is going to be similar. will the changes in the libs force some of the gnome applications to think that way too?
[04:55] <ailo> gnome3 is basically the same as gnome2, except it has a different panel
[04:55] <ailo> And some new stuff
[04:55] <len> Ok, how is different?
[04:56] <ailo> The panel is replaced by what is called gnome-shell
[04:56] <ailo> GTK has been updated
[04:56] <ailo> That's about it
[04:56] <ailo> In short
[04:59] <ailo> Unity resembles Gnome3, but uses a global menu. Unity is based on Gnome
[05:00] <ailo> Unity uses Compiz, while Gnome3 uses Mutter
[05:00] <ailo> Of no relevance to XFCE though
[05:00] <len> No body likes changing I remember wondering why anyone would need anything more than fvwm too.
[05:00] <ailo> I use Gnome3 and I'm pretty happy about it. 
[05:01] <ailo> Very simple and fast
[05:02] <len> I haven't tried that.... but I have tried unity (12.04 alpha) and it seemed to think nobody could use more than one app at a time.
[05:02] <len> Is there a flavour of ubuntu using G3?
[05:02] <ailo> I don't agree on the notion that Unity or Gnome3 are designed for one application in a time
[05:02] <len> Or is there a meta I could try?
[05:03] <ailo> If you have Ubuntu 11.10 or later installed, just install gnome-shell.
[05:03] <len> G3 I don't know, but unity seems to expect full screen everything.
[05:03] <ailo> Why do you say that?
[05:04] <len> I will try gnome-shell on top of a 12.04 ... anything I have tried with unity open fullscreen.
[05:05] <ailo> The windows work just as before. There has been no change there
[05:05] <ailo> Gnome3 does not have all three window control buttons visible by default though
[05:06] <len> I had ubuntu desktop on my netbook and when I upgraded to 11.10 I couldn't get the windows not to open full screen... ended up starting over with xubuntu.
[05:06] <ailo> As far as I know, there's no fullscreen mode for normal application
[05:06] <ailo> You mean maximized, right?
[05:07] <len> The ubuntu desktop alpha 12.04 I tried was flakey... but so was US at the time. Yeah maximised.
[05:07] <len> It uses all my screen :-P
[05:07] <ailo> On Unity, all of the apps have a minimize button
[05:07] <ailo> And unmaximize
[05:08] <ailo> On Gnome3 those do not appear by default, but if you get into how Gnome3 works, you'll see why you might not need them
[05:08] <ailo> You can use Gnome3 the old way, or in a new way
[05:09] <len> Maybe they have fixed it, but it is a pain to have to unmaximise things every time I start them, it would be nice if they started the same as I left them.
[05:09] <ailo> That is how I remember it to be
[05:09] <ailo> I don't use Unity myself though. Only Gnome3
[05:10] <ailo> Gnome3 still has the classic desktop as well, which looks like gnome2
[05:10] <len> My Yf would probably like unity though as she maxs everything. So I can't say unity is bad... just not for me. They may be right that for most people that is the way to go.
[05:11] <ailo> I don't agree on many of the things you say about Unity. It is just like gnome2, but with a different panel
[05:11] <ailo> And with additional functionality
[05:12] <ailo> I think there has been a false idea about what it is from the start
[05:12] <len> I may have picked poor times to try it out.
[05:13] <ailo> My biggest concern was how stable Unity and Gnome3 would be, since they require graphic card acceleration in default mode. And just generally, how buggy they would be
[05:14] <ailo> 12.04 seems to be ok for me
[05:14] <len> I was quite frustrated with it when I tried to use it for a week or so. I will keep trying it out though. It is nice having spare drives to run stuff on. I have gotten used to installing something different just to try.
[05:15] <ailo> I think the idea about both Unity and Gnome3 is that they would work on any screen device
[05:15] <ailo> Desktop/netbook/smartphone/TV
[05:16] <ailo> But so far, the old functionality is still there for desktops
[05:18] <len> It will be interesting to see what apps we get for US anyway...
[05:18] <len> I have to go for a bit.
[11:47] <astraljava> vaev: Would you mind joining #ubuntu-studio-dev
[11:47] <astraljava> sorry
[11:47] <astraljava> #ubuntu-studio-devel channel
[11:47] <astraljava> That's where the majority of the development happens.
[12:05] <astraljava> Crap.
[12:05]  * astraljava is really, really stupid today. Much more than normally.
[12:08] <vaev> hello. I was asked to come here, interested in participating
[12:09]  * astraljava wishes vaev warmly welcome
[12:09] <vaev> I'm not an expert in packaging, but feel like I can contribute in bug squashing, testing and xfce issues since that's the DE I've used for a long time
[12:13] <astraljava> jussi: From your email on May 8th, 2010, you proposed to move the channels to the naming convention of #ubuntu-studio*, but apparently it still hasn't realized. Why is that? (besides the fact that you're a lazy b***ard)
[12:27] <astraljava> vaev: Ahh... sorry, only Scott and Luke are admins of that team. They'll get around to your membership at some point.
[13:17] <scott-work> astraljava: do you mind if i query cjwatson for additional information about the live-dvd?
[13:25] <astraljava> scott-work: Not by any means. 
[13:28] <scott-work> i was thinking about this while i was getting up and ready for work this morning
[13:28] <scott-work> it seems that colin would expect we would not want some functionality available under a live-dvd use case
[13:28] <scott-work> and i can't fanthom what he might be thinking
[13:29] <scott-work> is he worried that we might not want to actually record music, ala jack/ardour?
[13:29] <scott-work> colin _is_ a very smart person, is he thinking of something we aren't?
[13:29]  * scott-work usually finds that this is the case when interacting with such persons as colin or persia
[13:36] <astraljava> scott-work: You can't say that. Either it's 'Colin and Emmet', or 'cjwatson and persia'. :D
[13:36] <scott-work> hehehe, true, true!
[13:37] <knome> yes!
[13:37] <knome> damn you
[13:37] <knome> :)
[13:39] <astraljava> It's the precise dev cycle, try to act accordingly, dangit!
[13:40] <knome> X)
[14:05] <scott-work> REVU is back up!  yay :)
[14:06] <astraljava> Nice.
[14:06] <scott-work> i'm tempted to leave work, RIGHT NOW, to go home and get the kernel upload :P
[14:07]  * astraljava sends evil thought-waves towards northern Texas
[14:08] <scott-work> now i also wish i had an ssh tunnel set up to my computer at home :(
[14:08] <scott-work> lol astraljava 
[14:13] <scott-work> astraljava: have you read any of my conversation with cjwatson in #ubuntu-devel?
[14:16] <astraljava> scott-work: Not yet, but I will. On another note, do we have anything important for today's QA meeting?
[14:17] <scott-work> astraljava: we have a QA meeting today?  i can't think of anything directly
[14:18] <scott-work> wrt seeds, i think the confusion is a matter of perspective
[14:18] <astraljava> scott-work: I just happened to stumble upon said meeting last week, and they had our derivate mentioned. So I gave a short and meaningless excuse for our existence, and promised to pay more attention in the future. :)
[14:19] <scott-work> i had been thinking of what should be excluded from the installed system, but rather we should think of the live environment first and then consider what should be excluded from _it_ to install onto the computer
[14:19] <scott-work> astraljava: lol...good job, man!
[14:20] <astraljava> scott-work: I agree on that. So we talk about it in the meeting, yes? Shall I add it on the agenda?
[15:20] <scott-work> astraljava: you mean the live-dvd issue for the ubuntu studio contributor meeting?
[15:27] <astraljava> scott-work: I mean the discussion about what we include in the live session, and how it (if in any meaningful way) differs from the installed product.
[15:30] <scott-work> astraljava: colin's talking about not including boot loader, ubiquity, and language packs....as these all seem very, very practically considerations i'm not sure we need to discuss it in the meeting
[15:30] <scott-work> but let's wait until colin responds back to my last question (do you need more from me?) before we make a final decision
[15:31] <astraljava> scott-work: ACK
[15:53] <scott-work_> astraljava: i think i satisfied cjwaton :)
[15:54] <astraljava> Oh ok, nice.
[15:59] <jussi> astraljava: its the latter... sadly :P
[16:00] <astraljava> Anyone surprised, please raise a hand now.
[16:00] <astraljava> ...
[16:00] <astraljava> ...
[16:00] <astraljava> ...
[16:00]  * jussi slaps astraljava 
[16:01] <astraljava> Hey! You have your target practice at home now!
[16:01] <jussi> ahh shaddup, Im tired
[16:01] <astraljava> Not from me you aren't. We haven't seen in so many days now.
[16:01] <astraljava> of me*
[16:08] <jussi> astraljava: yeah, get your lazy butt over here :P
[16:11] <astraljava> Not inclined to cycle 20 miles in that weather, thanks. Maybe next week. *grin*
[17:23] <holstein> interesting wallpaper pack on the ML
[17:23] <holstein> i think the one with the guitar cable is not awful
[17:23] <holstein> might look nice and minimal with XFCE
[17:24] <holstein> i think i like the other ones that were submited more though
[17:41] <scott-work_> is it a new email on the ML?
[17:42] <astraljava> scott-work_: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2012-January/003807.html
[18:27] <scott-work> wrt wallpapers; i just want a very simplistic background that can be used in a unified manner across the plymouth theme, the lightdm background, and the desktop wallpaper
[18:28] <scott-work> i have tried pulling involvement from the ML and from even the -artwork IRC channel, ML, and specific individuals with-artwork without much success
[18:29] <scott-work> i need to talk to dick macinnis again about the blueprint and spec i made and see if he can do something like it
[18:29] <scott-work> (macinnis already made some very nice wallpapers but not what i really had in mind)
[18:29] <scott-work> and i'll try to touch an artist type person who was working with cory for a short time called 'izo'
[18:30] <scott-work> but i freaking want THIS
[18:30] <scott-work> i might even set aside some money just to pay for it
[18:30] <astraljava> I vaguely recall that nick (or something like that), but didn't he go to Japan in a hurry? Is he available again?
[18:32] <scott-work> astraljava: no, that was....hmmmm, dont' remember
[18:32] <scott-work> but not the same person
[18:32] <astraljava> Oh ok.
[18:32] <scott-work> izo is a east bloc looking dude with a long goatee and kinda scary
[18:33] <scott-work> what's that new video editor coming out?  damn, i met the dudes and talked with them on two different morning during breakfast at uds :(
[18:34] <scott-work> novacut...he left working with cory to do the novacut icon/logo
[18:34] <scott-work> hold on....
[18:34] <scott-work> AHA!  http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/novacut/novacut-pro-video-editor/posts/101241
[18:34] <scott-work> first picture is izo
[18:34] <scott-work> okay, he looks more hispanic to me now
[18:35] <astraljava> Little bit scary nonetheless. :)
[18:37] <scott-work> i can be scary looking, but this guy looks bigger and would actually make me very, very careful if i met him in a dark alley
[18:37] <scott-work> ;)
[18:38] <astraljava> Agreed. :)
[18:38] <scott-work> oh, the link i sent earlier this morning (or was it last night) about the package sizes has me thinking quite a bit
[18:38] <scott-work> i might even set up a kde install just to verify a few thing and gather some more information about some gnome package sizes
[18:39] <scott-work> BUT it certainly reinforced that i'm probably going to go with brasero as our image burner for two reasons:
[18:39] <scott-work> 1. k3b (which many people suggested) is hella big install!
[18:39] <scott-work> 2. we've used braser for years and i dont' really recall any vocal complaints
[18:41] <astraljava> Did we even have anything for oneiric?
[18:42] <scott-work> brasero i believe
[18:42] <scott-work> what we were missing was text editor and maybe something else fairly minor
[18:42] <astraljava> It's not in the desktop file, at least.
[18:43] <scott-work> oneiric is embarassing actually
[18:43] <astraljava> It's in the video file!
[18:43] <scott-work> astraljava: does the agenda include the LTS request?  i forget
[18:43] <astraljava> WHY?!
[18:43] <astraljava> Oh, have to check.
[18:43] <scott-work> why is oneiric embarrasing?  it's unfinished and extremely rough
[18:44] <astraljava> No, I mean why is brasero in the video file of the seeds?!
[18:44] <astraljava> grr... wiki's being its own self again...
[18:44] <astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, the proposal is on the agenda.
[18:45] <scott-work> astraljava: thanks
[18:45] <scott-work> astraljava: brasero in video is probably my fault
[18:45] <scott-work> i've gotten a better understanding of what ubuntu studio should be, at least on a more fundamental level
[18:45] <astraljava> I don't think oneiric was embarrassing. It was a test drive.
[18:46] <astraljava> Quite successful for such.
[18:46] <scott-work> well, i guess so ;)
[18:46] <astraljava> It was the first attempt for switching over to XFCE, mind you.
[18:46] <scott-work> but i realize that there are certain applications that should be included in desktop simply for the desktop experience, like text editor and image burner :P
[18:46] <astraljava> And considering the manpower that we had for that cycle... I'm actually quite amazed we had something out in the first place.
[18:46] <scott-work> and not rely on, say, the video seed
[18:47] <scott-work> eh, so much of that is done by others and will continue on unless something breaks without practically any input from this team
[18:47] <astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, but then again, this isn't your regular desktop distribution.
[18:47] <astraljava> I'd say we would need more tasks, so that user could decide at install-time whether to make it more desktop-ish.
[18:47] <scott-work> true, but editing text or burning the image IS part of the desktop usage, not really on a particular seed, work flow, or even task
[18:48] <scott-work> hmmmm, that's an interesting idea
[18:48] <astraljava> After all, it's a DVD, so we can include more stuff. As long as the .iso doesn't become a full-fledged 4.7GB-er
[18:48] <scott-work> later on, maybe weeks or a month, i would like to poke cjwatson again and ask if there is a better way to make tasks with creating a seed for each one
[18:49] <astraljava> It's true, a very simple editor could be included by default. Like leafpad.
[18:49] <scott-work> ooooooo...."without", not "with creating a seed for each one"
[18:49] <astraljava> But no office suite. Not even Abiword.
[18:49] <scott-work> i like gedit really, it's good for code as well
[18:49] <astraljava> True.
[18:50] <scott-work> leafpad and mousepad are good, not to detract from that, but i do like the code highlighting (especially because i'm such a code noob and i need all the help i can get)
[18:51] <astraljava> Yeah, I just tested, no highlighting at all.
[18:52] <astraljava> Ok, gedit it could be.
[19:02] <scott-work> i am leaving work slightly early today and i will focus on getting two things done tonight:  pushing the kernel to REVU and updating the seeds for theme-ui change and filing bug for sponsors
[19:06] <astraljava> scott-work: Good idea. I think I'm going to try and get some sleep soon, and wake up at 5 am. for the Ducks' game. I'll then start to work on the seeds, both for live-dvd and desktop.
[19:08] <scott-work> cool :)  thank you metric tonnes, astraljava 
[19:20] <vaev> okay let's see.. gonna install current and see what has it eaten