[00:00] Ok Astraljava, That is useful... I take it then that there are 4 work flows or four sections of work flows? [00:02] For example in the audio section There are over 20 ways of using things... seems like a lot of metas to me. [00:03] May be just one that covers it all. Then a menu that shows whats needed for each? [00:22] len: My understanding is that all the different work flows are just arguments for having some applications installed through various tasks in the installer. [00:45] astraljava: Ok, so four sets of packages, lots of uses within each install. [00:46] I'm thinking I need to test more of that stuff... Like can the job actually be done with only the software provided. [00:47] This would mean only installing one of the four sets and trying out each task... [00:50] len: Would be good if you could test the thought behind the task, yes. [00:51] astraljava: Waiting for all the software to be included. Lots of stuff missing still. [00:52] Yep. I'm turning in, it's close to 3 am. here. Thanks for testing the stuff! Have a good night! [04:06] did an interesting experiment tonight to check a few things for updating the seeds [04:06] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox/#package_size_testing [04:07] mainly i wanted to compare the installation impact of a few different packages (file managers, video editors, disc burners) [04:07] for example, brasero appears to be a very, very small installation compared to k3b [04:08] and since brasero is basically installed when nautilus is installed we would actually get brasero "for free" [04:49] ScottL: so do we have a list of packages yet? I'm thinking in terms of file mangers and editors etc. [04:50] With where Gnome is going (3ish) is nautilus going to become incompatible with what we are doing ? [04:53] I'm thinking one of the big things with unity is this whole full screen everything and hearing gnome 3 is going to be similar. will the changes in the libs force some of the gnome applications to think that way too? [04:55] gnome3 is basically the same as gnome2, except it has a different panel [04:55] And some new stuff [04:55] Ok, how is different? [04:56] The panel is replaced by what is called gnome-shell [04:56] GTK has been updated [04:56] That's about it [04:56] In short [04:59] Unity resembles Gnome3, but uses a global menu. Unity is based on Gnome [05:00] Unity uses Compiz, while Gnome3 uses Mutter [05:00] Of no relevance to XFCE though [05:00] No body likes changing I remember wondering why anyone would need anything more than fvwm too. [05:00] I use Gnome3 and I'm pretty happy about it. [05:01] Very simple and fast [05:02] I haven't tried that.... but I have tried unity (12.04 alpha) and it seemed to think nobody could use more than one app at a time. [05:02] Is there a flavour of ubuntu using G3? [05:02] I don't agree on the notion that Unity or Gnome3 are designed for one application in a time [05:02] Or is there a meta I could try? [05:03] If you have Ubuntu 11.10 or later installed, just install gnome-shell. [05:03] G3 I don't know, but unity seems to expect full screen everything. [05:03] Why do you say that? [05:04] I will try gnome-shell on top of a 12.04 ... anything I have tried with unity open fullscreen. [05:05] The windows work just as before. There has been no change there [05:05] Gnome3 does not have all three window control buttons visible by default though [05:06] I had ubuntu desktop on my netbook and when I upgraded to 11.10 I couldn't get the windows not to open full screen... ended up starting over with xubuntu. [05:06] As far as I know, there's no fullscreen mode for normal application [05:06] You mean maximized, right? [05:07] The ubuntu desktop alpha 12.04 I tried was flakey... but so was US at the time. Yeah maximised. [05:07] It uses all my screen :-P [05:07] On Unity, all of the apps have a minimize button [05:07] And unmaximize [05:08] On Gnome3 those do not appear by default, but if you get into how Gnome3 works, you'll see why you might not need them [05:08] You can use Gnome3 the old way, or in a new way [05:09] Maybe they have fixed it, but it is a pain to have to unmaximise things every time I start them, it would be nice if they started the same as I left them. [05:09] That is how I remember it to be [05:09] I don't use Unity myself though. Only Gnome3 [05:10] Gnome3 still has the classic desktop as well, which looks like gnome2 [05:10] My Yf would probably like unity though as she maxs everything. So I can't say unity is bad... just not for me. They may be right that for most people that is the way to go. [05:11] I don't agree on many of the things you say about Unity. It is just like gnome2, but with a different panel [05:11] And with additional functionality [05:12] I think there has been a false idea about what it is from the start [05:12] I may have picked poor times to try it out. [05:13] My biggest concern was how stable Unity and Gnome3 would be, since they require graphic card acceleration in default mode. And just generally, how buggy they would be [05:14] 12.04 seems to be ok for me [05:14] I was quite frustrated with it when I tried to use it for a week or so. I will keep trying it out though. It is nice having spare drives to run stuff on. I have gotten used to installing something different just to try. [05:15] I think the idea about both Unity and Gnome3 is that they would work on any screen device [05:15] Desktop/netbook/smartphone/TV [05:16] But so far, the old functionality is still there for desktops [05:18] It will be interesting to see what apps we get for US anyway... [05:18] I have to go for a bit. [11:47] vaev: Would you mind joining #ubuntu-studio-dev [11:47] sorry [11:47] #ubuntu-studio-devel channel [11:47] That's where the majority of the development happens. [12:05] Crap. [12:05] * astraljava is really, really stupid today. Much more than normally. [12:08] hello. I was asked to come here, interested in participating [12:09] * astraljava wishes vaev warmly welcome [12:09] I'm not an expert in packaging, but feel like I can contribute in bug squashing, testing and xfce issues since that's the DE I've used for a long time [12:13] jussi: From your email on May 8th, 2010, you proposed to move the channels to the naming convention of #ubuntu-studio*, but apparently it still hasn't realized. Why is that? (besides the fact that you're a lazy b***ard) [12:27] vaev: Ahh... sorry, only Scott and Luke are admins of that team. They'll get around to your membership at some point. [13:17] astraljava: do you mind if i query cjwatson for additional information about the live-dvd? [13:25] scott-work: Not by any means. [13:28] i was thinking about this while i was getting up and ready for work this morning [13:28] it seems that colin would expect we would not want some functionality available under a live-dvd use case [13:28] and i can't fanthom what he might be thinking [13:29] is he worried that we might not want to actually record music, ala jack/ardour? [13:29] colin _is_ a very smart person, is he thinking of something we aren't? [13:29] * scott-work usually finds that this is the case when interacting with such persons as colin or persia [13:36] scott-work: You can't say that. Either it's 'Colin and Emmet', or 'cjwatson and persia'. :D [13:36] hehehe, true, true! [13:37] yes! [13:37] damn you [13:37] :) [13:39] It's the precise dev cycle, try to act accordingly, dangit! [13:40] X) [14:05] REVU is back up! yay :) [14:06] Nice. [14:06] i'm tempted to leave work, RIGHT NOW, to go home and get the kernel upload :P [14:07] * astraljava sends evil thought-waves towards northern Texas [14:08] now i also wish i had an ssh tunnel set up to my computer at home :( [14:08] lol astraljava [14:13] astraljava: have you read any of my conversation with cjwatson in #ubuntu-devel? [14:16] scott-work: Not yet, but I will. On another note, do we have anything important for today's QA meeting? [14:17] astraljava: we have a QA meeting today? i can't think of anything directly [14:18] wrt seeds, i think the confusion is a matter of perspective [14:18] scott-work: I just happened to stumble upon said meeting last week, and they had our derivate mentioned. So I gave a short and meaningless excuse for our existence, and promised to pay more attention in the future. :) [14:19] i had been thinking of what should be excluded from the installed system, but rather we should think of the live environment first and then consider what should be excluded from _it_ to install onto the computer [14:19] astraljava: lol...good job, man! [14:20] scott-work: I agree on that. So we talk about it in the meeting, yes? Shall I add it on the agenda? [15:20] astraljava: you mean the live-dvd issue for the ubuntu studio contributor meeting? [15:27] scott-work: I mean the discussion about what we include in the live session, and how it (if in any meaningful way) differs from the installed product. [15:30] astraljava: colin's talking about not including boot loader, ubiquity, and language packs....as these all seem very, very practically considerations i'm not sure we need to discuss it in the meeting [15:30] but let's wait until colin responds back to my last question (do you need more from me?) before we make a final decision [15:31] scott-work: ACK [15:53] astraljava: i think i satisfied cjwaton :) [15:54] Oh ok, nice. [15:59] astraljava: its the latter... sadly :P [16:00] Anyone surprised, please raise a hand now. [16:00] ... [16:00] ... [16:00] ... [16:00] * jussi slaps astraljava [16:01] Hey! You have your target practice at home now! [16:01] ahh shaddup, Im tired [16:01] Not from me you aren't. We haven't seen in so many days now. [16:01] of me* [16:08] astraljava: yeah, get your lazy butt over here :P [16:11] Not inclined to cycle 20 miles in that weather, thanks. Maybe next week. *grin* [17:23] interesting wallpaper pack on the ML [17:23] i think the one with the guitar cable is not awful [17:23] might look nice and minimal with XFCE [17:24] i think i like the other ones that were submited more though [17:41] is it a new email on the ML? [17:42] scott-work_: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2012-January/003807.html [18:27] wrt wallpapers; i just want a very simplistic background that can be used in a unified manner across the plymouth theme, the lightdm background, and the desktop wallpaper [18:28] i have tried pulling involvement from the ML and from even the -artwork IRC channel, ML, and specific individuals with-artwork without much success [18:29] i need to talk to dick macinnis again about the blueprint and spec i made and see if he can do something like it [18:29] (macinnis already made some very nice wallpapers but not what i really had in mind) [18:29] and i'll try to touch an artist type person who was working with cory for a short time called 'izo' [18:30] but i freaking want THIS [18:30] i might even set aside some money just to pay for it [18:30] I vaguely recall that nick (or something like that), but didn't he go to Japan in a hurry? Is he available again? [18:32] astraljava: no, that was....hmmmm, dont' remember [18:32] but not the same person [18:32] Oh ok. [18:32] izo is a east bloc looking dude with a long goatee and kinda scary [18:33] what's that new video editor coming out? damn, i met the dudes and talked with them on two different morning during breakfast at uds :( [18:34] novacut...he left working with cory to do the novacut icon/logo [18:34] hold on.... [18:34] AHA! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/novacut/novacut-pro-video-editor/posts/101241 [18:34] first picture is izo [18:34] okay, he looks more hispanic to me now [18:35] Little bit scary nonetheless. :) [18:37] i can be scary looking, but this guy looks bigger and would actually make me very, very careful if i met him in a dark alley [18:37] ;) [18:38] Agreed. :) [18:38] oh, the link i sent earlier this morning (or was it last night) about the package sizes has me thinking quite a bit [18:38] i might even set up a kde install just to verify a few thing and gather some more information about some gnome package sizes [18:39] BUT it certainly reinforced that i'm probably going to go with brasero as our image burner for two reasons: [18:39] 1. k3b (which many people suggested) is hella big install! [18:39] 2. we've used braser for years and i dont' really recall any vocal complaints [18:41] Did we even have anything for oneiric? [18:42] brasero i believe [18:42] what we were missing was text editor and maybe something else fairly minor [18:42] It's not in the desktop file, at least. [18:43] oneiric is embarassing actually [18:43] It's in the video file! [18:43] astraljava: does the agenda include the LTS request? i forget [18:43] WHY?! [18:43] Oh, have to check. [18:43] why is oneiric embarrasing? it's unfinished and extremely rough [18:44] No, I mean why is brasero in the video file of the seeds?! [18:44] grr... wiki's being its own self again... [18:44] scott-work: Yeah, the proposal is on the agenda. [18:45] astraljava: thanks [18:45] astraljava: brasero in video is probably my fault [18:45] i've gotten a better understanding of what ubuntu studio should be, at least on a more fundamental level [18:45] I don't think oneiric was embarrassing. It was a test drive. [18:46] Quite successful for such. [18:46] well, i guess so ;) [18:46] It was the first attempt for switching over to XFCE, mind you. [18:46] but i realize that there are certain applications that should be included in desktop simply for the desktop experience, like text editor and image burner :P [18:46] And considering the manpower that we had for that cycle... I'm actually quite amazed we had something out in the first place. [18:46] and not rely on, say, the video seed [18:47] eh, so much of that is done by others and will continue on unless something breaks without practically any input from this team [18:47] scott-work: Yeah, but then again, this isn't your regular desktop distribution. [18:47] I'd say we would need more tasks, so that user could decide at install-time whether to make it more desktop-ish. [18:47] true, but editing text or burning the image IS part of the desktop usage, not really on a particular seed, work flow, or even task [18:48] hmmmm, that's an interesting idea [18:48] After all, it's a DVD, so we can include more stuff. As long as the .iso doesn't become a full-fledged 4.7GB-er [18:48] later on, maybe weeks or a month, i would like to poke cjwatson again and ask if there is a better way to make tasks with creating a seed for each one [18:49] It's true, a very simple editor could be included by default. Like leafpad. [18:49] ooooooo...."without", not "with creating a seed for each one" [18:49] But no office suite. Not even Abiword. [18:49] i like gedit really, it's good for code as well [18:49] True. [18:50] leafpad and mousepad are good, not to detract from that, but i do like the code highlighting (especially because i'm such a code noob and i need all the help i can get) [18:51] Yeah, I just tested, no highlighting at all. [18:52] Ok, gedit it could be. [19:02] i am leaving work slightly early today and i will focus on getting two things done tonight: pushing the kernel to REVU and updating the seeds for theme-ui change and filing bug for sponsors [19:06] scott-work: Good idea. I think I'm going to try and get some sleep soon, and wake up at 5 am. for the Ducks' game. I'll then start to work on the seeds, both for live-dvd and desktop. [19:08] cool :) thank you metric tonnes, astraljava [19:20] okay let's see.. gonna install current and see what has it eaten