[09:19] <jml> hi
[09:35] <jo-erlend> hey jml. :)
[10:03] <dpm> good morning everyone, hey jo-erlend
[10:03] <jo-erlend> hey dpm, and good morning to you too. :)
[10:03] <dpm> :)
[10:04] <jo-erlend> it's a really good morning for me, since my program seems to pass tests – finally! :)
[10:06] <rickspencer3> hey jo-erlend
[10:07] <jo-erlend> hey rickspencer3 :)
[10:07] <jo-erlend> how are you?
[10:08] <jo-erlend> really glad you encouraged me to write tests. It's become an addiction for me. ;)
[10:12] <jml> tests are awesome
[10:12] <jml> (says the guy who just approved a branch without tests)
[10:16] <jo-erlend> I've always seen it as a chore, but now I realise that it's actually improved my development speed radically, and that it turns things around. Instead of getting disappointed, I get confirmation that things are working all the time. I'm really happy I started doing it.
[10:17] <jo-erlend> I actually wish I could run the tests whenever I saved anything, and that I got a notification showing fail or success.
[10:19] <jo-erlend> or even auto-commit on "new success". That is, if the last saves tests failed and this saves tests succeed, then auto-commit. That would be very nice if you write tests in advance.
[10:23] <rickspencer3> hey jo-erlend good to hear!
[10:24] <rickspencer3> hey jo-erlend did you see any of my posts from over the holidays?
[10:24] <rickspencer3> I think I'm leaving Gtk as a widget toolkit, and going over to HTML5 for my front ends
[10:27] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, no, where did you post them...
[10:27] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, and... What's possessed you?
[10:27] <rickspencer3> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/
[10:28] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, it was just super fun
[10:28] <jo-erlend> I'll wait a decade more, I think.
[10:29] <jo-erlend> I jumped on the whole "DHTML is going to kill the desktop"-thing back in 1999 or so. They're still talking about it, and there's some progress, but I think it's far from being competitive.
[10:30] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, well, I was writing desktop only apps
[10:30] <rickspencer3> just using webkit + HTML5 for my widgets
[10:30] <rickspencer3> they aren't web apps
[10:30]  * noodles775 really enjoyed reading through http://www.cuttherope.ie/dev/ recently
[10:30] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, oh, I see. Then you're using many webviews
[10:31] <jo-erlend> ?
[10:32] <jo-erlend> or did I misunderstand that completely? :) *reading*
[10:33] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, just one webkit view per window
[10:33] <rickspencer3> it's pretty easy, actually
[10:35] <jml> jo-erlend: are you doing TDD? (are you writing the tests first?)
[10:36] <jml> jo-erlend: because I find that heaps more fun than writing tests afterwards.
[10:36] <jo-erlend> jml, semi. I'm getting there. :)
[10:37] <jml> jo-erlend: heh. I know what you mean.
[10:38] <jml> jo-erlend: one of the nice things about writing tests first is that you tend to get code that's easier to re-use.
[10:38] <jml> jo-erlend: because "easy to test" and "reusable" are, roughly speaking, synonyms
[10:39]  * jml stops raving
[10:40] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, interesting project.
[10:41] <rickspencer3> jml, I find that when I do TDD, my APIs are way better, too
[10:41] <rickspencer3> because I write the code I want to write first, if that makes sense
[10:42] <jml> rickspencer3: yeah.
[16:02] <JanC_> rickspencer3: do those HTML5 GUIs support a11y & such?  (Maybe you can use special stylesheets for that?)
[16:03] <rickspencer3> JanC, hi
[16:03] <rickspencer3> I presume that webkit support a11y, yes
[16:03] <rickspencer3> but I have not tested it
[16:08] <JanC> well, it supports a11y, but that's not the same as what normal GUI apps can provide AFAIK (I suppose webkit doesn't know whether some HTML/JS fragment is "a widget", or what its purpose is?)
[16:14] <rickspencer3> JanC, you ask a good question
[16:14] <rickspencer3> I'm really not certain
[16:14] <rickspencer3> I mean, I am confident you *can* make an accessible gui with HTML5, I'm just not certain how "built in" it is
[16:15] <JanC> it should be possible to have some sort of API for this sort of things, I suppose
[16:16] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, do I understand correctly that you aim to provide a complete widget toolkit for html/css/js?
[16:16] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, negative
[16:17] <rickspencer3> it's already done
[16:17] <rickspencer3> there are many toolkits to choose from
[16:17] <rickspencer3> I chose JQuery for myself
[16:17] <JanC> there already is one...  Gtk+ ?  ;)
[16:17] <JanC> I haven't tried the "web" backend for Gtk though
[16:17] <jo-erlend> gtk uses canvas, doesn't it?
[16:18] <JanC> maybe
[16:18] <JanC> probably easiest for them to use that
[16:18] <jo-erlend> I got that impression from a libreoffice demo I saw. I don't really consider that html, though it obviously is. :)
[16:18] <JanC> it's mostly JavaScript, I suppose ☺
[16:19] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, do you mean that jquery is comparable to gtk?
[16:19] <jo-erlend> I don't know much about that, really.
[16:20] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, I mean that HTML5 + JQuery is a fun toolkit to use
[16:20] <rickspencer3> I suppose they are comparable in different ways
[16:21] <jo-erlend> html is fun. Always has been. From everything I've seen, it's not close to mature enough to replace desktop apps, and it sure isn't good enough to replace dtp. To me, it's still a homepage thing.
[16:22] <jo-erlend> saw some interesting suggestions from Opera recently, though. It should become possible to columnize data. That would improve things radically, I think.
[16:24] <JanC> jo-erlend: "columnize"?
[16:28] <jo-erlend> yes, you take one article tag and split it up into several columns, and split the page into pages. The data itself is untouched.
[16:28] <jo-erlend> split the _article_ into pages of columns, I mean.
[16:30] <jo-erlend> heh, that's one of the most basic aspects of newspapers for the last few hundred years, and you still can't do it with web technologies :>
[16:31] <jo-erlend> I mean you have a screen with a width of 2560px, and the news sites still present the news in a single column 4-500px wide. It's reader hostile.
[16:34] <jo-erlend> the web doesn't impress me a single bit, except for the value of RESTful APIs. But those are just as valuable to desktop apps as browser apps. The web should've been holographic by now! And where are the flying cars?! :)
[16:34] <JanC> you know, Netscape 4 (and maybe earlier?) could already put text in columns...   ;)
[16:38] <jo-erlend> yes, and the mayas understood the stars... a long time ago. Isn't worth much when the fanatical antipathies are mightier than insightful creativity. Some things never change.
[16:40] <JanC> well, I think it was removed because people didn't like reading in columns on web pages
[16:40] <JanC> of course that might be because of the implementation
[16:41] <JanC> anyway, CSS already has support for "paged media"
[16:41] <jo-erlend> yes, I know. Operas suggestion was still very interesting. Wish I had a reference on hand.
[16:43] <JanC> jo-erlend: I suppose you mean "Opera Reader" ?
[16:43] <JanC> http://people.opera.com/howcome/2011/reader/
[16:45] <jo-erlend> that looks like it, yes.
[16:49] <jo-erlend> I hate scrolling when I read. I want a foot pedal for next and previous -- that I can also use for guitar of course -- and I'll use my vertical 24" 1080x1920 to read one page at a time. That's absolutely perfect. :)
[17:08] <jo-erlend> that fellow _always_ disappears when I need to chat with him. :)
[17:08] <jo-erlend> no exception.