/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/19/#ubuntu-motu.txt

mvdkI have a packaging of JBIG-KIT on my PPA.  I wish to submit it for inclusion, solving #594250.  How do I do it?00:31
mvdkAre there any MOTU in the house?00:33
mvdkAre there any MOTUs here?00:39
RAOFYes.  Some might be a bit busy :)00:41
mvdkDid any of them see my question, or is it fair to suppose I should ask in an hour's time?00:41
RAOFThe first question they'll likely ask is: can this be submitted to Debian?  That'll get it into Ubuntu, and also be useful for a bunch of other people.00:42
mvdkNot before precise's feature freeze closes00:42
achiangcan someone explain gpg keys to a dummy? i normally sign packages with @foo.com, but now, i want to make an upload with @bar.com. i have both @foo.com and @bar.com as uids on my private key but... not sure how to actually sign as @bar.com00:43
achiangi used @bar.com in debian/changelog00:43
RAOFachiang: Then you're signing as @bar.com00:43
mvdkReason being that last patent it's subject to is a US patent that expires on 4/4/201200:43
RAOFHm.  Debian's patent policy is roughly the same as Ubuntu's - has it been rejected from Debian before?00:44
mvdkAbout 3 years ago00:44
achiangRAOF: hm, but... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/809232/00:44
mvdkThe final patent is rather dubious, but it's US only, anyway00:44
brodermvdk: if it's still protected by a patent, that seems like it would be a problem for Ubuntu as well00:44
mvdkSo all the patents have expired in the UK, which is where Canonical is00:45
psusiachiang, debbuild signs with whatever key has the id listed in the changelog00:45
psusiachiang, so as long as the new address is listed on your key, using that address in the changelog should be all you need to do00:46
achiangpsusi: maybe i don't actually have a key for '@bar.com'... perhaps i only added @bar.com as a uid?00:46
achiangpsusi: there's a pastebin above with my error00:46
psusiachiang, does gpg -K show that address?00:47
achiangpsusi: ah, i figured out my issue... i used a debian/changelog line of:  -- Alex Chiang <alex@chizang.net>  Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:33:45 +000000:48
RAOFmvdk: Ubuntu is also distributed from US servers00:48
achiangpsusi: but in reality, what is in my key is Alexander Chiang <alex@chizang.net>00:48
achiangpsusi: i didn't realize it was going to match on the entire string, not just the actual email address00:48
psusiachiang, ahh, yea00:48
RAOFIt matches on full string *and* comment.00:48
* psusi finally started using his @ubuntu.com email recently00:49
RAOFSo if you've got, for example, a comment of RAOF then you need to sign as Christopher James Halse Rogers (RAOF) <raof@ubuntu.com>.00:49
achiangRAOF: yep, got it now.00:49
achiangis that a gpg thing or a debuild thing (the matching)00:49
RAOFWhich is why my GPG keys no longer have a comment of RAOF :)00:49
mvdkRAOF: So what I was hoping for was to include it in the pre-release so it could be included in Precise when it is released00:50
mvdkRAOF: It's actually a pretty big thing for hylafax - yeah, including patents in things that are actually in common circulation is kind of nasty :(00:50
RAOFmvdk: We need to care about it from the time it hits the archive - after all, we're distributing it as soon as it hits archive.ubuntu.com.00:51
RAOFmvdk: To what extent is this patent enforced?  Have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PatentPolicy ?00:51
RAOFYes, software patents generally suck.00:51
mvdkPractically not enforced any more00:52
mvdkMitsubishi is the owner of the patent in question00:52
RAOFAnd about to expire…00:53
mvdkYep00:53
mvdkAnd it's the last one of about 2500:53
RAOFSo, I've not been following the recent discussions about new-package-uploads on the MOTU lists; I *think* the current correct procedure is still to upload to REVU.  You might also want to attach your source package to the bug in question, and subscribe (not assign!) ubuntu-sponsors.  That'll get it on the sponsorship queue.00:54
mvdkSee http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/jbigkit/patents/00:55
mvdkOK, I'll google for REVU00:55
mvdkThanks00:55
broderi still don't understand why uploading to debian isn't an option. it's possible to get exceptions to feature freeze, and for universe they tend to be handed out pretty liberally00:58
RAOFAha! http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/ says that it's deprecated, and contains a link to the current process https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages00:58
mvdkAh, so I need to speak to "the" MOTU00:59
mvdkI'm guessing there is in fact more than one...00:59
mvdkbroder: libtiff isn't universe, and I would submit a one-liner in the control for it01:01
mvdkAdd a depends for libjbig-dev01:01
mvdkBuild-depends, rather01:02
mvdkOK, so I should attempt debian first, no probs01:02
RAOFYeah.  There are more people who can upload to Debian than who can upload to Ubuntu (as a goodly number of Ubuntu developers are also Debian developers, but not visa-versa).01:04
mvdkRAOF: broder states that exceptions are sometimes given.  Is it likely that an exception would be given for a Build-Depends on libtiff?01:07
brodermvdk: are you saying that your thing needs to build-dep on libtiff?01:08
RAOFbroder was talking about feature-freeze exceptions; it's reasonably easy to get a new package into Universe after feature-freeze, because that's quite safe.01:08
mvdkIn order for libtiff to use libjbig, there needs to be a build-dep on libtiff, yes01:08
RAOFBut if you need to add a build-depends on this new package to libtiff, that's different.  It needs libjbig to be in the archive and have a main-inclusion-report done for it (because libtiff is in main it can only build-depend on things in main).01:09
mvdkAh01:09
mvdkOuch01:09
mvdkSo I should make a tiff-jbig source package that has that one-liner, that is a virtual for all the main package parts?01:10
mvdkSorry, is a provides for all the main package parts01:10
RAOFThat would potentially be one way to have jbig support in libtiff without getting jbig in main, yes.01:11
RAOFUnfortunately, due to limitations of dpkg, that'll only work if nothing has a versioned dependency relationship on libtiff. [Ie: declares Depends: libtiff (>= someversion)]01:11
mvdkYuck01:12
psusiRAOF, glib timeouts are called without gdk lock, so you need to call gdk_threads_enter() before doing any gtk stuff right?01:12
mvdkSo it's more like "Sit in the corner and cry" :(01:12
RAOFpsusi: That sounds right.01:13
psusidamn...01:13
RAOFmvdk: It'd still be possible to get that happening, but it's tight.  What is jbig support, and how much do we need it?01:13
mvdkSeveral printers are useless without it01:14
mvdkIn particular, a heap of Samsung & Lexmark printers are useless - all the ones with splix support01:14
RAOFThat sounds like something we want to have, then.01:14
mvdkThey don't depend on libtiff support, though01:15
mvdkhylafax depends on libtiff support01:15
psusiRAOF, is there a sigc or gtkmm template somewhere you can use to wrap a sigc::mem_fun in a gdk_enter_threads so you can pass it to Glib::SignalTimeout::connect without writing your own function to do so? ;)01:15
RAOFIs there a bug for the fact that we lack support for those printers?01:16
RAOFpsusi: Dunno; I'm not familiar with gtkmm.  If I want to write something in a high-level language I'll use a high-level language :P01:16
psusihehe...01:16
mvdkYeah, with wontfix, I think01:16
RAOFIs it only the fax functionality that's broken?01:17
psusiyou would think that gtk would have its own timeout wrapper that made sure to grab the lock01:17
mvdkhylafax won't be able to use JBIG if libtiff doesn't get built without libjbig01:18
mvdksplix (the printers) won't work if libjbig doesn't get built01:18
mvdksplix is a universe package, though01:18
mvdksplix is not a universe package, I didn't realise, sorry01:19
RAOFmvdk: If you can hunt down that bug, this sounds like something that should be fixable now.  Hardware support is generally a good reason for a MIR :)01:20
mvdkBut the ubuntu maintainer has decided to add the libjbig as a statically linked bit of source in his own package :P01:20
mvdkAs of about 2 weeks ago01:20
RAOFUrgh, really?01:21
mvdkYep, nasty hey?01:21
RAOFHm, so he has.01:21
micahgRAOF: mvdk: policy around REVU is if you have someone to REVU it and it's going straight into Ubuntu, that's the place, otherwise, try to get into Debian through debexpo01:22
RAOFmvdk: So, I think that's actually a mistake on his part, and we should do the work to get your proper libjbig package into main.01:23
mvdkOK, no probs.  Do you have the PPA I set up?01:23
mvdkThat's the package I actually intend to attempt to submit01:24
RAOFI don't, no.  Is the package lintian-clean?01:24
mvdkYes, but the symlinks aren't properly set up.  I haven't quite figured out libtool. (That is, lintian doesn't actually check that the build scripts do sensible things)01:25
mvdkOnly the libjbig-dev does symlinks (That is, libjbig-dev has libjbig.so -> libjbig.so.0, but both libjbig.so.0 and libjbig.so.0.0 are real files)01:26
RAOFHuh.01:26
mvdkI think libjbig.so.0 ought to be a symlink to libjbig.so.0.001:27
mvdkIt doesn't actually cause it to fail, but it seems silly01:27
RAOFThat's the way it generally should be.01:28
RAOFDoes libjbig do ABI stability?  An SONAME of .0 is sometimes suspicious. :)01:28
mvdklibjbig has been stable for the last 4 years01:29
mvdkThat is to say, the author hasn't made any releases - and why would he, the library is only 3 files containing about 2K lines...01:29
mvdk+3 headers01:30
mvdkAnd the author has never released them as so's01:31
mvdkHis build script made .a's...01:31
mvdkSo the part about making it into a .so was my part01:31
RAOFAh.  Joy!01:32
mvdkYeah, hence my looking into what I need to do to make libtool work...01:33
RAOFI found http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/column/libpkg-guide/libpkg-guide.html#id292165 an excellent reference for general library packaging things.01:34
mvdkI think I found what my issue is01:36
mvdkI said install -s -m ...01:36
mvdkBut I should only have said that for the main file01:36
mvdkSo I need install -s -m ... *.*.* but just install -m ... .so .so.[^.]*01:37
RAOFI generally use the magic of autofoo, which tends to get it right.01:40
mvdkRAOF: I got that working.  Lintian has some more output: It doesn't like some binaries not having man pages.  I guess I ought to write them, right?02:17
RAOFHm.  Why does the package have binaries at all?  Are they demos or something?02:17
mvdkIt seems the author had some other file formats that were supported.  The demo directories seem to have some weird stuff.  In any case, they allow conversion from pbm to a raw jbig stream (if you can think of a reason to want to do that)02:19
mvdkAnd vice-versa02:19
RAOFThat doesn't sound awesomely useful.  Feel free to simply not ship those.02:20
mvdkI put them in jbigkit-bin, which wouldn't need to be a main package02:21
mvdkSo I have 3 packages from the source at the moment: libjbig, libjbig-dev & jbigkit-bin02:21
mvdkThe libjbig & libjbig-dev would need to be in main02:22
RAOFThat sounds roughly right (I presume it's actually libjbig0)02:22
mvdkYes, it is, sorry02:22
mvdkIt wants me to fill in minimum versions for libc-dev & gcc.  Is there a good minimum to use?02:24
mvdkThe build worked on lucid, I'm thinking I should use its version numbers02:24
mvdkAny idea what a reasonable minimum for libc-dev is? I put >= 4.4 for gcc...02:30
RAOFI think the actual problem is that you don't actually _need_ a Depends on libc-dev and gcc.02:33
RAOFThey're assumed to be provided by the build environment, so you only need to specify an explicit dependency if you need a specific version - hence the warning.02:34
mvdkOh, very classy.  I wonder why the new-package scripts gave me it for free?02:34
RAOFDunno.02:35
mvdkRAOF: I just packaged a jbigkit-2.0-6 for precise that has everything but the manpages fixed02:46
mvdkRAOF: Thanks for all your help.  I've posted the package on mentors.debian.net.  Hopefully I can find someone to sponsor it...06:45
ricotzsiretart, hello, could you get libaacs 0.3.0-3 synced?07:18
dholbachgood morning07:50
siretarthi dholbach, morning ricotz07:58
siretartricotz: yes, let me testbuild it07:58
ricotzsiretart, hi, thanks07:59
dholbachhey siretart08:02
siretartricotz: that the first time I'm using this newfangled syncpackage script. let's see if the sync really gets attributed to you :-)08:04
ricotzsiretart, hoping the best ;P08:06
siretartChanged-By: Debian Multimedia Maintainers <pkg-multimedia-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>08:14
siretartdoesn't look like it, but it got accepted :-)08:14
ricotzsiretart, i see, dont worry08:23
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Laneysure it did https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+synchronised-packages09:17
ricotzLaney, oh nice, havent seen this new categories there yet09:25
Laneyhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/precise-changes/2012-January/007584.html even says your name :-)09:25
ricotzi see :), formerly the name would have appeared here too https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libaacs/0.3.0-309:27
Laneyye that bit is missing09:27
Laneyhopefully be back soon09:27
ricotzok, it isnt important09:27
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dholbachhey, so I mailed a few folks about this already, but it might be worth bringing it up here as well - I need some help filling the schedule for Ubuntu Developer Week, so I can go and announce it and try to get some press attention, so we can get many new contributors :)11:36
dholbachlooking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Timetable what I feel we still need is a few hands-on sessions, maybe even just 30 minute ones which most of you could probably just off-the-cuff :)11:36
dholbachin a dog-walking break I came up with these ideas already http://paste.ubuntu.com/809547/11:37
dholbachhaving reached out to new contributors in the last months, I found that demo'ing how things are done with an example generally had a huge impact on their views of how easy it is to get involved11:38
micahgdholbach: a security session would be good  Ithink11:45
dholbachah yes11:46
micahgI'll see if I can find someone to do it :)11:46
* dholbach hugs micahg11:46
tumbleweedLaney: looks like nobody has volunteered for the second debian slot yet11:47
dholbachit's hard work getting the schedule filled this time11:48
Laneythose slackers11:48
dholbachwhich is why I suggested more hands-on sessions, where you just talk about a few examples you picked earlier - which I I supposed would come naturally to most of the ubuntu developers and contributors :)11:48
tumbleweedpeople often come aind and ask what they can do to help, does a short slot on the kind of things MOTU does sound interesting? It wouldn't be particularly hands-on11:49
dholbachsure - explaining where we list our task lists and what they all mean would be super helpful11:50
dholbachor maybe a "here's how reviews are done, let's pick 5 items from the queue" session11:53
dholbachwould have the nice side-benefit of getting the queue shorter ;-)11:53
ajmitchnot really the best time of day for me to help out with that11:58
dholbachajmitch, I know :-/12:00
* dholbach hugs ajmitch12:00
dholbachmaybe we can groups of 2 or more to copresent sessions, like Laney and tumbleweed do?13:33
Laneywell actually we might split that up13:35
Laneygive one half of the debian stuff each13:35
dholbachah, so that'd be "working with debian" and "working in debian" like you mentioned some days ago?13:36
Laneyyeah13:36
Laneybut I'll re-ping13:36
dholbachsweet13:36
dholbachgreat13:36
* dholbach hugs Laney and tumbleweed13:36
dholbachrock stars :)13:36
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scott-worki uploaded a lowlatency kernel package to REVU last night i have yet to get a confirmation email or see it on the website, is this unusal and do i need to worry about it yet?14:40
psusiscott-work: revue is for brand new packages that want to get into universe, and is obsolete15:30
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siretartscott-work: did you upload a _source.changes or a _i386.changes file?15:43
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ScottKpsusi: It's not obsolete.16:02
ScottKLittle used, I would agree with, but not obsolete.16:03
scott-workpsusi: the lowlatency kernel is a new package that needs to be into universe16:05
scott-worksiretart: i believe i uploaded a _source.changes, but i can check when i get home tonight16:05
scott-worksiretart: i used 'debuild -S -sa' to generate the .changes files if that helps any16:05
psusiscott-work: linux is already packaged... if you want to add a low latency flavor, it is just another binary package that should be added to the existing suorce package.. but there used to be one and the kernel removed it a few releases ago16:06
psusiScottK: there was some discussion yesterday about it and there was a new proceedure that didn't involve revu iirc16:07
psusikernel-team removed it that is16:07
psusiiirc, because the generic one is pretty much just as good now16:07
ScottKThe kernel team is not everybody.16:09
ScottKthere is an intent to replace it with mentors.debian.net, but it's not there yet.16:09
scott-workpsusi: there has been discussion with the kernel team and they do not want to maintain this kernel and therefore will need to be community maintained kernel16:41
scott-workpsusi: the kernel team is very accepting of a community maintained kernel based on the ubuntu kernel16:41
scott-workpsusi: but it would need to be in universe therefore and a separate package16:42
psusiscott-work: you can't have a main source build a universe binary?16:42
scott-workpsusi: per a uds-p blueprint i we are to build, package the lowlatency kernel and then submit to REVU16:42
scott-workpsusi: it would suggest it's not a matter of ability but that the kernel team does not want to be directly involved with this kernel, including having it in their code16:43
scott-workno disrepect to UKT intended as i completely understand and agree with their motivations and concerns16:43
psusiby low latency, do you just mean switching the config option from desktop to preempt?  or are there actual source changes?16:43
scott-workpsusi:  i am not a kernel expert, but my understanding is that the only changes are flags during build16:44
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scott-workpsusi: this is the blueprint if you are interested:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-lowlatency16:45
psusiseems silly to upload a near duplicate source package just for a config change... how much difference does it actually make anyhow?16:46
scott-workpsusi: performance wise for recording audio it can lower the latency by at least a factor of 2, in some cases it has lowered performance by a factor of almost 816:48
scott-workpsusi: and it also practically eliminated _all_ xruns at most of those latencies16:48
psusiI found the other day that glib's timer implementation is horribly incaccurate and submitted a patch for it... in my testing it got 20% off when run niced with stress -c in the background running a 50 Hz timer... simple patch to glib and that went down to like 0.0001% error16:49
psusihow much latency are we talking about here?  microseconds?16:49
scott-workpsusi: yes, microseconds16:51
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psusiwow... so you want to work with only a few microseconds of audio buffer?  damn...16:52
astraljavaEhh... that can't be right. Gotta be milliseconds.17:04
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scott-workpsusi: sorry, astraljava is correct, it's milliseconds....i mispoke preparing to go to a meeting17:13
scott-workbut the point is per an approved bluepring from uds-p i was to submit to the lowlatency kernel to REVU17:14
scott-workif i can being told that i cannot use REVU in this capacity i need to find another vector to get this package into the universe archive17:14
scott-workalso, i uploaded last night (approximately 16 hours) but have not yet received an email or can see it on the website, is there perhaps a problem with the dput although it said it uploaded properly?17:17
micahgscott-work: what's wrong with REVU now?17:22
scott-workmicahg: hi, it started like this....17:22
scott-work[08:40] <scott-work> i uploaded a lowlatency kernel package to REVU last night i have yet to get a confirmation email or see it on the website, is this unusal and do i need to worry about it yet?17:22
astraljavapsusi: Even though we're not actually talking microseconds, the difference is drastic on some heavy audio-related tasks. People interested in such have provided test results regarding such sessions, and in several cases the latency was dropped to even smaller than one third.17:24
micahgscott-work: it should show up fairly quickly, I assume you did dput revu foo_source.changes?17:24
scott-workmicahg: i think siretart had a good suggestion on checking which *.changes file was uploaded, which i will check in approximately 6 hours hence, but generally i was just trying to get a feel for if this is normal and i dont' need to worry17:24
astraljavapsusi: So even when we're only talking miniscule amounts of diffs codeline-wise, there are other differences.17:25
scott-workmicahg: aye17:25
jbichagcompris fails to build with the latest librsvg "error: 'RsvgSizeFunc' is deprecated [-Werror=deprecated-declarations]"17:33
jbichais there an easy fix for that?17:33
micahgwhy wasn't this caught before the upload?17:34
* micahg would have assumed 2 devs test built this in this case17:34
jbichabecause new librsvg was just uploaded a few hours ago, it didn't fail earlier17:35
micahgah, ok :()17:35
micahg:)17:35
micahgthe big hammer would be to use the no-error equivalent when building, ideally, patch it to use whatever replaced it17:36
scott-workinterestingly nothing since 02 jan 2012 is showing up on the revu website :/17:39
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ScottKIt was down for awhile before it got rebooted yesterday17:45
l3ondo you think it normal that a package in universe depends on a non-free package ?18:37
psusiso why is using pkexec better than gksu?18:37
ScottKl3on: No.  It's a bug.  What package?18:38
l3onboinc-amd-opencl18:38
scott-worksiretart:  i called my wife and asked her to read me the filename for the .changes file, it was a _source.changes file18:39
l3onin precise18:39
ScottKl3on: It's in multiverse: boinc-amd-opencl | 7.0.7+dfsg-1 | precise/multiverse | amd64, i38618:39
l3onright right... well, in this case ?18:39
l3onis still a bug ?18:39
ScottKNo, that's where non-free stuff goes.18:40
l3onah ok, thanks :)18:40
l3onin anycase, it has a bronken dep on amd-libopencl118:40
ScottKDifferent sort of bug.18:42
ScottKIt's not strictly required that multiverse packages be installable just from packages in the archive.18:42
l3onthanks for the info :)18:47
siretartscott-work: gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found18:59
siretartscott-work: seems you're not added to the keyring yet18:59
scott-workhmmm, i did this for the zynjacku, strange19:00
l3ondo you know where can I find information about what happened to package libcassad1 ?19:01
scott-workmaybe i'm using a different key than i did back then19:01
siretartbut 9E2AC7F4 is your key, which is registered in launchpad, right?19:01
scott-worksiretart: i'm guessing then i need to verify my key is in the ubuntu keyring?19:01
scott-worksiretart: "9E2AC7F4", i'll check, but it shoudl be19:02
siretartyou need to join the revu-uploaders team19:02
siretartrevu has a cronjob that collects keys from launchpad19:02
scott-worksiretart: aye, that is my key19:02
scott-worksiretart: okay, i'll join now then19:02
scott-workand then dput again?  or will i need to dput -f this time?19:03
siretartscott-work: dputting again should work, or some revu admin can move back the .changes file19:04
scott-worksiretart: okay, maybe i'm flusttered, but i simply can't find 'revu-uploaders' in launchpad19:09
siretartoh19:09
siretartright, that was removed at some point..19:09
siretartRainCT: around? see above19:10
siretartscott-work: sorry, I was wrong19:16
siretartscott-work: 2012-01-19 20:16:43 - linux-lowlatency_3.2.0-9.16_source.changes: Incorrect signature, moving to rejected.19:16
siretartor wait. no19:17
RainCTHey19:19
scott-worksiretart: i would like to point out that no matter the outcome, i really do appreciate your efforts to help me :)19:19
RainCTsiretart: the cronjob is long gone19:19
RainCTkeys are pulled individually from Launchpad every time you log in on the REVU website19:20
RainCTscott-work: ^19:20
scott-workRainCT:  i _think_ i might have dput'ed before logging in (at least in a year)19:20
siretartRainCT: aah, that explains19:20
scott-workRainCT: now that i have logged into the website do you think dput will work19:20
scott-work?19:20
siretartscott-work: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/linux-lowlatency19:20
siretartscott-work: I've reprocessed your upload manually.19:21
scott-worksiretart: i simply cannot thank you enough!  if i see you at a uds i will buy you several of your favourite beverages :)19:21
siretart:-)19:21
l3onhi guys, how a package can be updated with bzr ?19:39
l3onI looking at "condor"19:39
l3onwell, maybe it's too much complex for me :/19:40
scott-workl3on: my experience is to download the bzr branch, make the changes, upload back to the branch, and then ask for a sponsor to upload the changes to the archives19:44
l3onscott-work, well but I'm going to "upgrade" package, in meaning of new upstream release.. is there something like --pristine ?19:45
jtaylorthere should be an merge-upstream command19:45
l3onfound, thanks jtaylor19:46
micahgl3on: http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/udd-merging.html#merging-a-new-upstream-version19:47
l3onwell, seems to not work...19:52
l3onbzr merge-upsream $HOME/condor-7.6.6.tar.gz19:52
l3onreturns an exception...19:52
broderl3on: you need to specify the version number as well. don't remember exactly how - might be --version or -v or something20:17
koolhead17slangasek: hi there20:54
=== chrisccoulson_ is now known as chrisccoulson

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