[02:44] <len> ScottL: I was able to make a toc file with Ardour2 that brasero was able to print to cd.
[02:45] <len> I could not find a way of doing this with ardour 3.
[02:45] <len> Ardour 3 is much nicer in many ways, but I guess I have to look some more.
[02:46] <len> Basero does have one problem though. It doesn't go away when its done.
[02:47] <len> I right click on a toc file and select brasero to run with it, print a CD and exit.
[02:48] <len> It closes it's window, but when I do a ps x brasero is still there and if I try to right click on the toc file a second time... brasero doesn't show up.
[02:49] <len> If I start Brasero from the main menu, it doesn't, but it does get rid of the already running brasero.
[02:51] <len> I probably just don't know ardour well enough, but I find gcdmaster easier to use and get good results with than ardour.
[02:53] <len> I have been working on a quick and simple toc editor, but I think it will be hard to beat gcdmaster. It really was a nice application.
[02:53] <astraljava> Well then, I guess I will have to keep on working on it. :)
[02:54] <astraljava> len: From your email, I started looking into the seeds more. It seems we're not shipping mudita24 at all. Can you verify that?
[02:54] <len> That would be up to you. The reality is that there are tools that will do the job.
[02:54] <len> I agree. It is something I asked Scott to add.
[02:55] <len> It does not come with a desktop file though. I had to change the envy24controler one to work with it
[02:55] <astraljava> Ok. I will add it. The question is, shall I file a sync request from debian sid, as there appears to be a newer version than what we have in precise currently.
[02:56] <len> Not sure the one I got from synaptic is so much nicer than the old 0.6 that I didn't think of that.
[02:57] <len> I don't have it on this box so I can't look at the version.
[02:57] <astraljava> Right. I'll see if I have time to install debian on real hw one of these days before the freeze, to see whether it is stable already.
[02:58] <astraljava> The version we have in precise is 1.0.3-1
[02:58] <len> sounds right. It has real peek detect
[02:58] <astraljava> sid has 1.0.3+svn13-2
[02:58] <len> What does that add?
[02:59] <astraljava> I'm installing a sid chroot right now, to have a deeper look into stuff in there.
[02:59] <len> I will go and file a bug report about basero I guess.
[02:59] <astraljava> That would be good.
[03:01] <astraljava> I will also ask from quadrispro when he's online, as he's the debian maintainer.
[03:21] <ailo> Jack should always start with the rt mode checked. And I assume the user will have realtime privilege by default
[03:22] <ailo> One thing I talked about a long time is getting audio to be a default group for newly created users
[03:22] <ailo> Someone has to know how to do that easily
[03:23] <ailo> If we get the lowlatency kernel, I think 256 is pretty safe
[03:23] <ailo> Without it, I think 1024 is better
[03:24] <ailo> Not sure about period/buffer, but I've often read some people have trouble with 2, why 3 might be the better choice
[03:35] <astraljava> ailo: What do you mean 'default group'? It's easy to add the user to audio group for sure. But I don't understand what a default group is.
[03:41] <ailo> astraljava: When you create a new user, it should be in audio group by default
[03:41] <ailo> That is what I mean by default
[03:42] <ailo> Users should not need to administrate that themselves
[03:48] <astraljava> Sure, that can be done.
[03:49] <astraljava> But is it actually needed? If so, then for what?
[03:51] <ailo> astraljava: It is required in order to get realtime privilege. New users won't have a clue how to achieve that
[03:52] <ailo> But then again, I'm not that familiar about the whole problem of creating new users
[03:52] <ailo> Doing that from the command line is not the same as doing it graphically
[03:54] <ailo> astraljava: When you do it graphically in Precise (at least in Ubuntu), you can create two type of users (they've made it simpler)
[03:55] <ailo> It makes sense for both types to have realtime privilege. The two types of users are: administrator, and normal user.
[03:56] <ailo> It's not a very common problem since not everyone will create a new user, but I would still consider not letting new users become members of audio group being a bug
[04:02] <astraljava> ailo: Is this still valid? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/TheAudioGroup
[04:07] <ailo> astraljava: That is from a non-audio point of view. Maybe in the future we will not need audio group, but right now, we need it
[04:07] <ailo> Without it we have no realtime operation at all
[04:08] <astraljava> Well it does say the same thing, actually. Just wanted to verify it's still up-to-date.
[04:08] <ailo> AFAIK, there has been no change there yet
[04:08] <astraljava> Ok, I will add that to the list of things needing to be changed.
[06:49] <stochastic> knome, how are you?
[08:12] <astraljava> Most likely hungover, judging from the way the evening was progressing in here. :D
[12:34] <knome> huh? :P
[12:34] <knome> nah, i had one beer
[12:34] <knome> i'm fine
[14:41] <len> alio: Re: audio group. Should there be more than one user in this group?
[14:42] <len> After reading the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/TheAudioGroup from above, I understand why people would like to get rid of it.
[14:43] <len> I also know we need it. I am thinking about the way we use the machine here.
[14:43] <len> I am the only one who does recording or uses jack in the house. anyone else is fine with pulse.
[14:46] <len> In the case of a commercial set up, the new accounts would be set up by "IT" or at least by someone with better than average user skills.
[14:48] <len> Perhaps we need our own new user tool that would give three choices: admin, user and sound engineer.
[14:49] <len> My thought would be, that even in a studio where more than one person needs access to jack. The use would be project based.
[14:50] <len> So all the people that might work on any one project would need to be able to login to the same account anyway.
[14:52] <len> I am thinking that the better setup would be to create two accounts at install. One admin account and one sound account
[14:54] <len> The sound account would actually have less access to things (no sudo) and be almost at the low level of access of guest. Admin would not normally come with audio group... but could for one user kinds of operations.
[14:59] <len> If there was going to be an engineer kind of user. There normal setup for files would be group read/write/ex for their home directory or there would be global "projects" directory set up by user "project" with group audio and group permissions the same as user.
[15:01] <len> That is anyone in the audio group would be able to start a new project in this directory and anyone else in the audio group would be able to take over and finish it.
[15:03] <len> Sorry for being wordy... I am thinking out loud. I read this last night but couldn't put anything into words.
[15:06] <len> I do think, however, that US needs to rethink security as it relates to audio production (or video and art for that matter) where collaboration is expected for a good product.
[15:24] <len> Right now a newly created user has user.user and the files they create are 744. This is ok for a normal desktop. But is it really right for what we want to do?
[15:35] <len> To be able to set up a project directory that all audio engineers have a link to from their home directory with it's own effective umask would require the acl package.(setfacl and getfacl)
[15:37] <len> I think I will drop most of this in the list as well.
[16:25] <ailo> The implications mentioned on that wiki page for using audio group seems to be mostly about not being able to share a device using multiple logins
[16:25] <holstein> at least these are thing we *can* address... instead of issues like the kernel where we need pacakges that are not in the repos
[16:28] <ailo> My version of us-controls had the ability to give the current user realtime privilege, but the best option is when you don't need to worry about that at all
[16:28] <ailo> The less settings you need to poke around with, the better
[16:29] <ailo> If I had time, I would gladly work on that tool again. My idea was to try push it into Debian, using an unbranded name. And for it to be a general tool to turn a Debian based system into a pro audio friendly one
[16:30] <holstein> ailo: i like that idea
[17:10] <len> holstein: About ardour 3. I don't seem to be able to export a toc file from there. I can export files and I can set track CD_DATA but there is no where to set toc/cue/none.
[17:11] <holstein> len: we an ask las, but i say, try A2
[17:11] <len> I was able to create a toc with ardour2 and print it with brasero.
[17:11] <holstein> could be something they havent brought over yet
[17:11] <holstein> we can ask*
[17:12] <len> Well I was trying a3b2 and looked things up. I found that a3b1a says they fixed toc/cue creation so I reloaded a3b1a but no luck.
[17:12] <holstein> we wont have A3 for a while anyways :/
[17:12] <len> For 12.04 we will be shipping A2 I would guess so it is not a problem.
[17:13] <len> I am thinking down the road.
[17:13] <holstein> wonder if its ready for 12.10...
[17:14] <ailo> Haven't you heard? The world will end soon , Muhahahaa
[17:14] <ailo> Or not
[17:14] <ailo> A3 aught to be ready pretty soon, don't you think?
[17:14] <holstein> they are not slacking off, thats for sure
[17:15] <len> In editing with ardour. If I select a portion of audio and cut it out the cut works but leaves a gap. Is there a way to have the cut time come out too, so that the audio before and after the cut join?
[17:16] <holstein> i think the default idea is to make that an editable process
[17:16] <holstein> and what happens to the data in other tracks
[17:16] <holstein> ?
[17:16] <holstein> im sure thats possible though
[17:16] <holstein> las would know
[17:16] <len> Maybe if it is done on the master track?
[17:16] <ailo> You need to move the region
[17:16] <holstein> i usually just split tracks where i want to edit and get "picky" from there
[17:18] <ailo> If you do the same in Audacity, you'll cut out the time as well, not only the audio
[17:18] <holstein> im sure theres a toggle for it
[17:18] <holstein> if you are working with only one file, that would save time editing
[17:19] <ailo> In a DAW it doesn't make a lot of sense, since you are probably doing multitrack recording and don't want files to move by themselves
[17:19] <len> One thing I did notice is that ardour is quite good at making "bad" toc files ;-) That have to be hand edited after creation. Generally if I wanted to put two regions on the CD while skipping a portion of sound in between. Ardour put a sighlent portion in for me...
[17:20] <len> Brasero does not like to be started with a toc file on the command line. It works, but never exits.
[17:21] <holstein> i think our solution must be GUI
[17:21] <len> If you right click on a toc file and select brasero, that is the same as calling it with the file name on a command line.
[17:22] <len> If you do it twice... it only works once because it never exits.
[17:23] <holstein> lol
[17:23] <ailo> Have you reported it as a bug?
[17:23] <holstein> yeah, we can ust get more envolved in this process
[17:23] <len> I have to put a bug in, but that was with US 10.04 and I wanted to try it on something newer too.
[17:23] <holstein> its likely we are the only 3 people discussing using TOC's in linux right now
[17:25] <ailo> It would be good to document the progress anyhow. I like that stones have been turned over and knowledge has increased. 
[17:25] <holstein> yup
[17:25] <len> True, but it may effect and file opened with brasero not just a toc. Brasero does create bin/cue for example and right click on a cue may be the same thing. This happens even when the dialogue is cancelled as well as when the burn is successful.
[17:25] <ailo> Those who want to read documentation might learn something new and handy in the process
[17:44] <len> Just sent email to the list with regarding groups accounts and stuff. One thought on how it could be set up to be collaborative.
[17:44] <len> Or more so anyway.
[17:45] <len> I am going to reboot and try brasero on 12.04 for the same bug.
[17:56] <ScottL> len, ailo :  just to be clear, when installing ubuntu studio from the ISO it does add the user to the audio group
[17:57] <ScottL> ailo, what you are speaking of is when a user "updates" ubuntu to ubuntu studio, correct?
[17:57] <ScottL> an option would be to make a package for "update" or "upgrading" to ubuntu studio
[17:57] <ScottL> this package could include code to add the user to the audio group
[17:57] <ailo> ScottL: Nope. What I'm talking about is really a minor problem for most people, but could still be considered a bug. It only involves the situation where you create a new user
[17:58] <ScottL> ah, i see
[17:58] <ScottL> the original spec for ubuntu studio was for a single user system
[17:58] <ScottL> not to say that this still isn't a problem we could address
[17:58] <ailo> Though it would make sense to add user to audio group if installing ubuntustudio packages from a regular ubuntu as well
[17:58] <ScottL> ailo, aye
[17:58] <ScottL> i am also working on adding sane, default jack settings...this could be incorporated into some sort of "upgrade"
[17:59] <ScottL> okay, i have to go for a bit to take the kids to get haircuts, i'll be back later though
[18:35] <len> brasero bug #919767  filed. I don't know how to make it apply as a ubuntustudio bug as well.
[18:43] <len> But it should be.
[19:40] <ScottL> len, just to be clear, installing ubuntu studio from the ISO does add the user to the audio group
[19:40] <ScottL> it doesn't do that so far when a user "upgrades" from ubuntu to ubuntu stuio
[19:41] <ScottL> nor does it automagically when a additional user is added in an existing ubuntu studio install
[19:41] <ScottL> thanks ailo for pointing this last one out
[19:41] <ScottL> len, can you explain further about your thoughts on ubuntu studio and security?
[19:44] <ScottL> astraljava, i have an idea, since there are many "tasks" or work items that we are working on, perhaps we should make a wiki page to list them, the person who is doing them, and the expected completion date
[19:44] <ScottL> maybe not completion date, but maybe if they are targeted for A1, A2, A3, B1, or B2 etc
[19:48] <holstein> we need to make sure the live user gets permissions it needs too
[19:48] <holstein> otherwise, its a bit of a waste of effort
[20:06] <stochastic> knome, I wanted to touch base with you soon and chat about the webpage's current state
[20:06] <stochastic> when works for you?
[20:07] <len> ScottL: The installing user gets group audio. A new user by default gets nothing.
[20:08] <len> My thought are best explained on the email list. It gets "rangy" trying to do that here.
[20:09] <len> That is thoughts on user rights
[20:11] <len> I don't know if it is security so much and it really goes beyond single user use. It may be more than we want/need for what we are trying to do.
[20:13] <len> Hmm, the magic ferry
[20:14] <len> the magic ferries have left another iso to test... is it going to work?
[20:14] <len> I know wrong spelliing of fairy
[20:27] <ScottL> len, i believe the original spec of ubuntu studio was for a single user system
[20:27] <ScottL> len, that doesn't mean we cannot consider multiple users however
[20:28] <ScottL> len, and of course we are not bound to the original spec in other aspects as well
[20:29] <ScottL> len, oh, some of it he iso's may be "funny" and not work for a day or so because colin should have made the changes for a live-dvd
[20:30] <ScottL> i could be wrong however and the images work just fine without any trouble between alternate-install and live-dvd transition
[20:33] <len> Jan 20 was built part way between changes, that may be why there was trouble. I'll try.
[20:49] <knome> stochastic, now is fine
[20:57] <astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, I think goals could be linked to release schedule of each dev cycle. That's more understandable and concrete than just other artificial dates.
[21:03] <ScottL> astraljava, part of my concern was making sure that we are correctly prioritizing items, making sure they are scheduled properly, and that people aren't doubling up on a particular item
[21:05] <astraljava> ScottL: Of course. We probably should pay more attention to tasks in the formal meetings, too.
[21:12] <knome> where did stochastic go? ScottL, any progress on thinking about the website?
[21:12] <knome> or did i promise to do something but forgot?
[21:13] <knome> :/
[21:14] <astraljava> Just what kind of a beer was that?! :D
[21:15] <knome> lol
[21:15] <knome> it's just so much time since that discussion
[21:15] <knome> i think ...
[21:22] <ScottL> knome, i don't know where he went, i haven't made any progress lately, and you haven't forgotten anything yet ;)
[21:23] <ScottL> knome, now that i've gotten through the them-ui changes, pushing the lowlatency kernel to REVU, and the live-dvd is in progress i will focus primarily on the website
[21:23] <ScottL> knome, i realize that we got an email about the website being on the top of the rt "to do" list and i'm very keen to get as much done before they push it to a staging area
[21:24] <ScottL> (this isn't to say that there won't need to be theme-ui tweaks, updates to the kernel and more though required for live-dvd/ubiquity/work flows, but the main thrust of those are completed
[21:26] <knome> ScottL, you, np
[21:40] <knome> ^         ^
[21:40] <knome> p
[21:40] <knome> err
[21:40] <knome> nvm
[21:41] <astraljava> Dude, you gotta stop sipping that stuff. It's killing you!
[21:41] <knome> i had a bad german bock today :(
[21:41] <astraljava> Heheh. :)
[22:29] <stochastic> hey, knome, sorry, hockey game is on and I'm making chili for the NFL party tomorrow so I'm moving about the house
[22:30] <astraljava> What game are you watching? I'm listening to the Sens @ Ducks.
[22:30] <stochastic> I'm in Vancouver
[22:30] <astraljava> Oh ok. Tight one.
[22:30] <stochastic> clearly watching the 'nucks and sharks, yeah, good game
[22:31] <stochastic> knome, I just wanted to make sure the website is progressing still, see where things are at.  I know that I still need to add in content
[22:31] <stochastic> how is the theme in your opinion?
[23:15] <knome> stochastic, i'm waiting for some decisions from scott. i'd also like to get feedback on how the articles on the site look like, and if they need fixing. overall, i think it's looking fine, and once we get the "featured" space fixed, we can look at polishing the rest of the site too to match that
[23:16] <stochastic> cool 
[23:16] <stochastic> I really just wanted to touch base
[23:59] <knome> yup