/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/25/#ubuntustudio-devel.txt

lenScottL: I am downloading the live iso. The alt doesn't seem to be updating any more. (probably correct)00:45
ScottLailo__, i think it's amazing that an email such as yours can generate so much response from so many deeply involved people in jack01:35
falktxwhere?01:36
ScottLnot that it's you specifically, but rather than everyman can do such a thing and perhaps start the discussion that causes a fundamental and sweeping changes01:36
* falktx is missing the action01:36
ScottLfalktx, it's on the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list01:36
falktxhm, that wasn't much01:37
ScottLmy description or the mail thread?01:37
falktxthe mail thread01:37
falktxthe LAU list went flamewar mode recently with the bitwig thing01:38
falktxhttp://linuxaudio.org/mailarchive/lau/187469/search/subject01:38
falktxand I'm not sure if that is all01:38
ScottLoh crap, it's on jack-devel mailing list01:39
ScottLbut you have to be subscribed to get it01:40
ScottLfalktx, i posted a thread about the work items left for precise01:40
ScottLfalktx, i'm hoping that either you or astraljava will handle the ubiquity plugin01:41
falktxScottL: can you see this page? -> http://lists.jackaudio.org/private.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org/2012-January/008966.html01:55
falktxI need to check how easy/hard the ubiquity work is01:58
ScottLfalktx, yes, i can see that page02:10
falktxScottL: ah, then you got the jack devel ML thread about this02:11
ScottLfalktx, yes that was the one i was talking about02:11
falktxah, then yes, it generated a lot of response02:12
ScottLi like seeing torben, paul, nedko, et al in their talking about it....it just might make a huge difference02:13
TheMusoScottL: I will get to the kernel tonight hopefully, been rather busy, and after the rally, the weekend was the first time I had time off since I got back so did very little.02:16
TheMusoScottL: As for the jack-dev thread, how is it progressing?02:16
TheMusoUltimately, jack shoudl use consolekit/whatever does consolekit functionality, like systemd et al... *shudder*02:16
ScottLlooks like live-dvd is building now :)  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/03:18
ScottLi look forward to hearing len_ 's experience with it03:18
falktxwoot! the magic happened03:20
falktxUS live dvd03:20
Len_on_live_dvdWell, ScottL and all, the live DVD boots.03:46
falktxyay!03:47
Len_on_live_dvdI was able to boot from the SD in the side slot but still got a K panic when I tried to connect to net.03:48
Len_on_live_dvdSwitched it to usb adaptor and it is ok.03:48
Len_on_live_dvdUm, this is no good...03:49
Len_on_live_dvdaudio:x:29:pulse03:49
Len_on_live_dvdmudita24 not found03:50
Len_on_live_dvdfoo yc20, I'm not running it now, but when I have tried it before. Seems to use a LOT of cpu03:57
Len_on_live_dvdSo much that virtkeyboard misses key press/release events.03:58
ScottLLen_on_live_dvd, that is awesome :)03:59
Len_on_live_dvdI think I will try the live install now....04:01
ScottLi'm curious to how the performance will be from the dvd as well04:01
=== kubotu_ is now known as kubotu
Len_on_live_dvdHard to tell. Jack does run even with no audio group.04:02
Len_on_live_dvdThis little netbook is maybe not the best test.04:02
Len_on_live_dvda2jmidid gives:Cannot use real-time scheduling04:04
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: jack runs in realtime without audio group?04:12
Len_on_live_dvdvirtkeybd -> a2j->zynjacku->calforgan->jackd gives clear sound no bad messages in jackd logging04:12
Len_on_live_dvdWed Jan 25 03:59:12 2012: JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 1004:13
ailo__ScottL: I'm invigorated by the fact that a simple question can get people to start talking, but that really only shows that it has already been on peoples minds, but no one was putting it in priority yet. Perhaps something comes out from it. At least it seems the jackd package might administer the audio group for us when it is updated next time.04:14
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: It just seems impossible that it would run without audio group. 04:15
ailo__I will give it a try as well04:15
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: Give a link to the download :P04:16
Len_on_live_dvdI'll have to find it again...04:17
Len_on_live_dvdhttp://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/04:19
Len_on_live_dvdailo__ ^^^04:19
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: Thanks!04:20
Len_on_live_dvdhmm, ubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:/media$ sudo bash04:26
Len_on_live_dvdroot@ubuntu-studio:/media# 04:26
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: That explains it :)04:27
falktxrm -rf /media/*04:27
ailo__Oh, I missed the command :P04:27
falktxailo__: live-user is like a normal user, but doesn't have password04:27
falktxdon't confuse that04:27
falktxit's still like a admin user, like it was installed04:28
ailo__falktx: I'm still wondering about how he's getting realtime without being in audio group04:28
falktxbut because password is blank, you won't need to type password04:28
falktxso:04:28
falktxsudo echo 104:28
falktxwill always work on live-dvd04:28
falktxailo__: he's not, I would bet04:28
Len_on_live_dvdI am not sure if I have realtime or not a2j says not.04:28
ailo__Len_on_live_dvd: jackd starts in realtime by default, but you could try to give it the --realtime argument just to be sure04:30
falktxLen_on_live_dvd: there's an option for force realtime and fail if not possible (I think)04:31
falktxmaybe it was in my dreams...?04:31
Len_on_live_dvdsorry doing some copying in case my install does something weird.04:33
Len_on_live_dvdubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:~$ cat .jackdrc04:36
Len_on_live_dvd/usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n204:36
falktxLen_on_live_dvd: you're missing '-R' or -r, don't know which04:39
falktxhm, I don't even have jackd here!04:39
falktx:)04:39
* falktx is fully working on jackdbus only mode for weeks now04:39
Len_on_live_dvdubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:~$ /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2 --realtime04:41
Len_on_live_dvdgives:04:41
Len_on_live_dvdjackdmp 1.9.704:42
Len_on_live_dvdCopyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.04:42
Len_on_live_dvdCopyright 2004-2011 Grame.04:42
Len_on_live_dvdjackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY04:42
Len_on_live_dvdThis is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it04:42
Len_on_live_dvdunder certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details04:42
Len_on_live_dvdCannot create thread 1 Operation not permitted04:42
Len_on_live_dvdCannot create thread 1 Operation not permitted04:42
falktxah, so no rt privileges04:42
Len_on_live_dvdYet qjackctl has the realtime box checked.04:43
Len_on_live_dvdIt must play some games with things.04:43
falktxLen_on_live_dvd: jack no longer "not starts" when rt is enabled but not possible04:44
Len_on_live_dvdBut it does write a sane .jackdrc04:44
falktxLen_on_live_dvd: because rt is default04:45
Len_on_live_dvdOK04:45
falktxLen_on_live_dvd: if you disable rt, you'll see changes04:45
falktxlater04:49
holsteinW0W!04:53
holsteinim downloading an ubuntustudio live CD!04:54
ailo__holstein: Do you have a firewire device around?04:54
holsteinailo__: i do, but i cant get to it tonite04:55
holsteinit'll take another 50 minutes do DL04:55
ailo__holstein: Would be great if you could check if it runs without realtime - ah :)04:55
holsteinailo__: yeah... im excited about tryint it out!04:55
holsteini always thought it was interesting how with the 64studio live CD, firewire worked04:56
holsteinyou install... and it didnt04:56
holsteini mean, out of the box04:56
Len_on_live_dvdThe slide show has some stuff on it we don't use.05:06
Len_on_live_dvdIt also has at least one page where the continue/go back buttons are below the screen.05:07
holsteinLen_on_live_dvd: the installer slide show?05:09
Len_on_live_dvdThe page where it asks for your picture is too big for a netbook.... whats with that anyway?05:09
holsteinis your screen tiny?05:09
Len_on_live_dvdnetbook sized.05:09
Len_on_live_dvd11inch?05:10
Len_on_live_dvdJa the slides need to be changed05:10
holsteinwonder if we can do that...05:11
holsteinis that all ubiquity?05:11
Len_on_live_dvdI have yet to get anything that asks what work flows I want05:11
holsteinLen_on_live_dvd: that could be on the way still05:12
Len_on_live_dvdThe slides are standard ubuntu stuff. Ubuntu one, libre office etc05:12
holsteinwe gotta grab it from edubuntu and have it changed05:12
Len_on_live_dvdYes it would be very confusing being told there was all this stuff being loaded and it not being there.05:13
holsteinyeah, not a deal breaker for me though05:14
Len_on_live_dvdI got the idea though that at this stage we would be happy if it worked.05:14
holsteini hopw its editable05:14
holsteinhope*05:14
holsteini gotta crash... got about 40 minutes left on the DL05:19
holsteinim *so* excited about it!05:19
Len_on_live_dvdThe slideshow is in /usr/share/ubiquity-slideshow05:26
Len_on_live_dvdif you go to the /slides dir and run index.html in firefox you get the same thing.05:27
Len_on_live_dvdThis is on the live cd directories. I am sure it won't be on the installed version05:27
Len_on_live_dvdSo it  looks like an impress slide show exported to html05:28
Len_on_live_dvdIt should be easy to replace. One of the packages in the dvd or live dvd is a slide show package.05:29
Len_on_live_dvdsynaptic shows many ubiquity-slideshows... we just have to make our own.05:31
Len_on_live_dvdthere is one for edubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu, ubuntu (the one we have) and xubuntu.05:32
Len_on_live_dvdIf we get rid of that picture taking thing, all the frames will fit on a netbook. I should file a bug against ubuiquity though. for not fitting. Is that picture thing in all of them?05:35
Len_on_live_dvdAnyway, I am going to see what this thing loaded. There was never a time to select work flows yet. So that is missing05:36
len_Ok, now on the installed version of things.05:53
len_/usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop link is still missing. Are we sure this not some theme change we have made?05:54
len_The live dvd seems to have installed all the work flows.05:55
len_just checking synaptic...05:55
len_synaptic shows ubuntustudio-audio not installed.05:58
len_Maybe because all it's deps are already in something else?05:59
len_audio:x:29:pulse,len   ... good06:00
len_Even still jackd did not start the first time.06:07
len_jack says Tue Jan 24 22:02:15 2012: ERROR: Cannot use real-time scheduling (RR/10)(1: Operation not permitted)06:09
len_Tue Jan 24 22:02:15 2012: ERROR: AcquireSelfRealTime error06:09
len_Jack quit the first time with:06:09
ailo__So, we need to add the live user to audio group06:10
len_22:02:19.893 Could not connect to JACK server as client. - Overall operation failed. - Server communication error. Please check the messages window for more info.06:10
len_This is with the user in the audio group still no rt06:10
len_but status says: Realtime Mode: Yes?06:12
ailo__len_: Could be some hassle with pa as well06:13
ailo__len_: You installed it on disk now?06:13
len_could be06:13
ailo__Oh, you said that06:13
ailo__len_: You have the file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf in place, right?06:14
len_pulse is connected through jack ok.06:14
len_let me check06:14
len_len@ustudio1204:/etc/security/limits.d$ ls06:15
len_audio.conf.disabled  ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf06:15
ailo__len_: Oh, there's a special us file there.06:15
len_That could be it......06:15
len_So thats two missing files06:15
ailo__len_: I haven't installed US since oneiric pre-final, so I've missed out on some things06:16
ailo__len_: No, it looks  like US is disabling the normal jackd file by introducing its own06:16
ailo__len_: You could check the contents of both06:16
len_ailo__ my problem is that I don't really know enough about setting jack up06:17
ailo__It's important that audo.conf.disable actually does not have @audio in use06:17
ailo__len_: audio.conf is the file that makes it possible to use realtime for users belonging to audio group06:17
len_is there supposed to be a link to the us file maybe?06:17
len_I'll try06:18
ailo__len_: Just check the contents of both06:18
ailo__len_: cat /etc/security/limits.d/*06:18
len_ cat *06:19
len_# Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package06:19
len_@audio   -  rtprio     9906:19
len_# Provided by the jackd package.06:19
len_#06:19
len_# Changes to this file will be preserved.06:19
len_#06:19
len_# If you want to enable/disable realtime permissions, run06:19
len_#06:19
len_#    dpkg-reconfigure -p high jackd06:19
len_@audio   -  rtprio     9506:19
len_@audio   -  memlock    unlimited06:19
len_#@audio   -  nice      -1906:19
len_# Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package06:19
len_@audio   -  rtprio     9906:19
ailo__len_: It seems audio.conf is not diabled06:20
ailo__Instead there are two files trying to do the same thing06:20
ailo__Renaming the files doesn't matter06:20
ailo__Those two lines are what makes jack able to use realtime and lock memory06:21
ailo__For users belonging to audio group06:21
ailo__If you change @audio to something else, you just make sure the user is member of that group06:21
len_Ok, so I need to get rid of one of these files?06:22
ailo__len_: Only one of them is tuning rtprio. I would guess memlock is tuned by one of them. Having two makes it a guessing game which is in use06:22
ailo__I don't really see the point in having a US specific file there at all06:23
ailo__No unless it is doing something worth while06:23
ailo__Like, setting memlock to something else than unlimited, but then it would require a script that checks memory size at boot time and sets it to a good value each time you log in06:24
len_The second one just has the one line in it. Is 99 a better setting than 95?06:24
ailo__len_: I don't think it matters a lot06:24
ailo__Ralph seems to think so. I haven't really made any tests to find out06:25
len_I'm one of those, "I just want something that works"06:25
len_I don't really know what all these things do.06:26
ailo__len_: memlock unlimited can be dangerous, if you run out of memory06:26
ailo__Or, it can lock up the system06:26
len_I can figure that06:26
ailo__But, you can never know how much memory a user has, so in order to find out, you would need a script06:26
ailo__I will take up this with the jack packagers06:26
len_OK06:27
ailo__ScottL: Do you know when /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf was introduced, and why?06:27
ailo__len_: Actually, it is probably disabled06:28
ailo__len_: I guess the file must end with .conf. Not sure06:28
len_So we lose memlock then06:29
ailo__len_: I would need to test it to find out06:29
len_Should have looked around more while on live dvd ailo__06:30
ailo__Not sure how much not having memlock affects performance. Never bothered to find out. Not sure if the file must end with .conf06:30
len_ailo__: I'm going to have to pack it up for the night.06:31
len_later all.06:32
live-ailoThere is some trouble with dbus and zeitgeist. Takes up a lot of the CPU07:39
live-ailoCouldnt get PA working with jack. They connect, but no sound07:40
live-ailojack was working alright07:40
live-ailono realtime of course07:44
scott-workailo:  re: /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf13:06
scott-workailo: i don't know when it was introduced, who did it, or why they thought it was necessary13:06
scott-workmy best suggestion at this moment is to install he ubuntustudio-audio source and grep 'ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf'13:07
scott-worki would guess it's in an .install file somewhere, but i would guess there is a significant chance i am wrong as well :P13:07
scott-workoh, by the way, i added a 'build environment' to the seeds similar to all other *buntu versions that have live cd/dvd13:09
scott-workthis would allow us to have gcc and a few others to build drivers and whatnot13:09
scott-workfor testing and debugging within the live environment13:09
scott-work 13:09
scott-worki admit that it wasn't some brilliant idea of mine, i simply saw it in the ubuntu/xubuntu desktop seeds :P13:10
ailoscott-work: I would suggest to take that file away13:17
ailoI've put a suggestion to Debian Multimedia, the guys packaging jack if they could use a script to make memlock less than limited13:17
ailoThe problem with having two files is that you can easily get things mixed up13:18
ailoDepending on which order you install stuff13:18
scott-workailo: i completely agree, i'm going to poke a few people who i think might have knowledge about it before simply removing it, i will check the source package tonight and see if i can find any clues to the author13:19
scott-workas well13:19
scott-worki suppose it could have been added to either the jackd package or the qjackctl package, i know that david h. has added bits of "plumbing" code (e.g. jackdbus) to the qjackctl package13:20
ailoscott-work: I tried the live DVD today. There's probably a Ubuntu bug that makes dbus not behave well, so I had some performance problems, but other than that, and of course it's not finished yet, it worked well13:20
scott-workailo: yay!13:21
ailoscott-work: The file suggests it was added by ubuntustudio-audio13:21
scott-worklooking at qjackctl you can see quite a lot of changes to make it play nicer with pulseaudio:  https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/qjackctl/precise13:22
ailoscott-work: I never got sound from pa, and flash-player hung, so I guess it's not perfectly functional yet13:24
ailoI mean, while jack was running13:24
scott-workailo: ubuntustudio-controls could be used to add users and include them in the 'audio' group14:00
scott-workthis was a thought i had several days ago but was reluctant to inject this thought into the email thread14:01
scott-workquite frankly, some will disagree with adding another methodology to add users to a system, but this might warrant it14:01
scott-workwith the warning caveats mentioned in the last email about 'this person is being added to the 'audio' group which could be dangerous'14:02
scott-work'for more information and education, see _this_ wiki page"14:03
scott-work 14:04
scott-workwhat i would like to do is for various people to do some comprehensive testing and come up with a list of problems that we can address as a group14:04
scott-workfor the live-dvd, i mean14:04
scott-workif we need to contact cjwatson about items, i think he would prefer it if we were to poke him once with a list, rather than poke him several times with singular items14:05
scott-workastraljava: are you around?14:09
ailoscott-work: Since the debian packager is going to do that for us, so need for us to bother with audio group14:16
scott-workholstein and len:  the ubiqiuty slideshow is on the precise work items:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap14:16
ailoscott-work: Besides, audio group will not be used for jack anymore14:16
ailoIt'll be rtprio or something like that14:17
scott-workailo: i don't remember what they said they would, i'm about to go to an all day meeting so i'll refresh my memory later14:17
ailoThere will probably be a jack-common package that handles that stuff14:17
scott-workailo: super cool, that would be nice, and i do remember that14:17
ailoscott-work: Here's what's going on so far http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=65691014:17
ubottuDebian bug 656910 in jackd2 "Group "audio" is used for two incompatible things" [Normal,Open]14:18
scott-workailo: would you look at the work items for precise (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap) and see if there is something that you will head up?14:18
ailoscott-work: I'm not that sure having sane jack settings is required. The default settings are great in my opinion14:19
ailoBesides, everyone will want to tune those anyway14:19
ailoscott-work: I wasn't supposed to get involved that much. I really don't have a lot of time14:20
ailoI have a deadline and need to do a lot of work for that14:20
ailoBoth school and for our band14:20
ailoThese last days have been a sort of detour14:21
ailoI would have really liked to work on us-controls exclusively, but I just don't have the time for it14:21
ailoMaybe one or two release into the future, if one will be required14:22
falktxScottL: ping16:35
scott-workfalktx: sorry i missed your ping, storm took computers/internet down for a bit17:59
ailoscott-work: Lot of mutants in your area?18:00
falktxscott-work: I don't know where to find the required stuff to work on ubiquity18:00
scott-workailo: i don't think so (?)18:00
falktxscott-work: is this on ubuntustudio bzr?18:00
ailoscott-work: since you said storm was around there18:01
scott-workfalktx: look in the notes in this blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-livedvd18:01
scott-workfalktx: there isn't any bzr branches at this point18:01
scott-workfalktx: any *ubuntustudio* bzr branches at this point, i should have said18:01
scott-workailo: reading the log i see you mentioned the jack default settings18:03
scott-workailo:  i think jack had been coming in with 1024 frames a sec18:03
scott-workailo: i think we can improve the "works out of the box" appeal by adjusting the setting a bit18:04
scott-workespecially if we get the -lowlatency kernel18:04
scott-workfalktx: if you have specific questions about ubiquity you can always talk to stephane graber who is the author and lead on edubuntu, great guy and bloody brilliant18:05
scott-worknice as well :)18:05
ailoScottL: Not everyone will have a -lowlatency kernel. I think it would be better to take up the case with those who package qjackctl, so we don't end up with tuneup on tuneup18:13
ailoscott-work: Not everyone will have a -lowlatency kernel. I think it would be better to take up the case with those who package qjackctl, so we don't end up with tuneup on tuneup18:14
ailoPersonally, I don't see why it is a big deal.18:15
ailoIt's just a parameter18:15
scott-workailo: i had originally considered a ubuntu studio specific file that was installed only during ubuntu studio ISO install as to not overwrite someone's already existing jack settings18:15
ailoNot meant to be static18:15
scott-workailo: because there are people who aren't linux specialists  or geeks and want it to "just work"18:15
scott-workit would certainly be a better selling point if an install worked right out of the box (albeit not as good as it could be) rather than if it was completely unusable18:16
ailoscott-work: I don't think you achieve that by changing jack settings. It would be better for software to automatically interact with jack (meaning you don't need to start it manually), and also that the software is able to set jack settings live18:17
ailoBeam yourself up, Scotty :P18:21
ailoscott-work: What is missing for non-geeks is better interfaces. Fewer controls that are pedagogically named.18:22
ailoAllthough, overwriting a file is not a big deal18:23
ailoThere should be a super-simple jack-control18:23
ailoMost people only need to start it and set latency18:24
ailoI suppose falktx would be able to make one, since he's already been doing that type of thing18:25
ailoscott-work: You seem to be on a mission to find a garage-band scenario for Ubuntu Studio18:26
ailoUnfortunately there are no apps like that18:26
ailoAnd the apps that are available are not meant to be garage-band18:26
scott-workailo: no, that is not the desire.  it is completely untenable given the number of hardware available and could be used18:27
ailoTo use them, you simply must learn how to use them18:27
scott-workailo: however, that does not preclude trying to make ubuntu studio more accessible to the less technically minded, as quite a few musicians are18:27
falktxailo: if all goes well, I may be able to get Cadence beta1 ready for 12.0418:27
ailoI see three cases for non technical users. 1. they only use jack with one piece of software. They only need to start jack and set latency. 2. They use more than one app, and also need to connect them. 3. They want to use multiple apps and save the session as well18:30
ailoIn which case, you need 1. start/stop controls 2. simple latency parameter 3. connect window 4. session save/load18:30
falktxI have it all I guess18:31
ailofalktx: But you have more too, right?18:31
falktxyes18:31
falktxailo: problem is jack1 with no-dbus support18:31
ailoI would design the interface, so that those controls I mentioned would be directly in front, while other settings would be hidden18:32
ailoAnd setting latency would be like a slider18:33
ailoNumbers and explanation - high latency, medium latency, low latency18:33
ailoI haven't looked at Cadence for a while18:34
ailofalktx: Why not push it into Debian?18:34
ailoI forgot one essential thing: Choosing sound card18:35
ailoChoosing sound card with qjackctl is great, but there are more options than most people would need18:35
=== micahg_ is now known as micahg
scott-workprogress is even better today :)  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html21:41
knomeshiny21:43
knomehttp://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html is not too bad either :)21:44
micahgare the -extra packages out of sync breaking anything ATM aside from today's image?  I just want to know if I need to upload now or can wait a few hours21:58
ScottLastraljava, ping23:21
astraljavaScottL: pong23:27

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