[15:59]  * slangasek waves
[16:00] <mdeslaur> \o
[16:00]  * stgraber waves
[16:00] <mlegris> o/
[16:00] <ogra_> moop
[16:00] <pitti> good afternoon
[16:00] <arosales> Hello
[16:01] <ogasawara> who's the meeting chair today?
[16:01] <slangasek> sorry, I'm a little bit behind on getting the wiki page loaded up today
[16:01] <slangasek> ogasawara: I am
[16:02] <slangasek> but I haven't done this in a while, so please bear with me :)
[16:03] <jibel> hi
[16:05] <dbarth> hi steve
[16:05] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:05] <meetingology`> Meeting started Fri Jan 27 16:05:56 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[16:05] <meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:06] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Release general overview - slangasek
[16:06] <slangasek> Agenda can be found:
[16:06] <slangasek> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-01-27
[16:06] <slangasek> Individual team status links were/will be added to it from:
[16:06] <slangasek> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/thread.html
[16:07] <slangasek> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule release schedule
[16:07]  * slangasek wonders if the bot is paying attention
[16:07] <slangasek> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/ release schedule
[16:08] <slangasek> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html bugs the engineering teams have committed to fix
[16:08] <slangasek> if you have other bugs you'd like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, they should be assigned to specific teams so they can be found.
[16:08] <slangasek> Upcoming dates:
[16:08] <slangasek> • 2012/02/02 - Alpha 2
[16:08] <slangasek> • 2012/02/16 - Feature Freeze
[16:08] <slangasek> • 2012/02/16 - 10.04.4
[16:09] <cjwatson> rls-p-tracking-bugs is, as usual for reports.qa pages, hopelessly wrong
[16:09] <cjwatson> there are more than four bugs tagged rls-p-tracking
[16:10] <slangasek> oh gar
[16:10] <Riddell> who's incharge of alpha 2?
[16:10] <slangasek> Riddell: o/
[16:10] <Riddell> good luck :)
[16:10] <slangasek> hmm, thanks ;)
[16:11] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up on rls-p-tracking report breakage
[16:11] <meetingology`> ACTION: slangasek to follow up on rls-p-tracking report breakage
[16:11] <ogasawara> slangasek: just fyi, I've pinged bjf about it
[16:13] <slangasek> ***WORKITEMS:*** we are still above the overall trendline unfortunately; we really need to get workitems postponed that aren't going to happen so that other teams know what to expect.  So please work with your teams to mark as postponed work that isn't going to happen
[16:13] <slangasek> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ work item tracker
[16:14] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Alpha-2
[16:14] <slangasek> Alpha 2 is due next Thursday.  I'm planning for the soft freeze to go into effect Tuesday morning UTC for milestone preparation, so please plan your uploads accordingly
[16:15] <slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-mgr-p-tracking bugs engineering teams have committed to fixing for alpha-2
[16:15] <slangasek> er no, sorry
[16:16] <slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-mgr-p-tracking bugs that have been flagged by release management for fixing in alpha-2
[16:16] <slangasek> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=44326&field.tag=rls-p-tracking bugs engineering teams have committed to fixing that are milestoned to alpha-2
[16:17] <slangasek> does the latter set bear discussing in this meeting?
[16:17] <slangasek> if you're not expecting a fix uploaded by EOD Monday, they probably need the milestone moved
[16:18] <slangasek> bug #830949, bug #344878, bug #800826, bug #850264, bug #872446, bug #905754, bug #790240
[16:18] <slangasek> (seven bugs, one with two tasks)
[16:19] <slangasek> Any comments on those bugs?
[16:19] <mdeslaur> I'll move the milestones on the security team ones, they won't be ready for alpha 2
[16:19] <slangasek> mdeslaur: ack, thanks
[16:20] <tyhicks> mdeslaur, slangasek: 344878 has a fix in the current precise kernel
[16:20] <slangasek> and I'll send out a milestone freeze pre-announcement mail today to ubuntu-devel to make sure everyone's on the same page
[16:20] <tyhicks> I still have to do some touchups on it, but what's currently there is "good enough"
[16:20] <slangasek> tyhicks: sounds like the bug tasks should either be marked as 'fix released' or have the milestone moved to track the further work
[16:21] <tyhicks> slangasek: ack - marking it fixed release and I'll leave it inprogress on the upstream task
[16:21] <slangasek> any other comments/questions on alpha-2?
[16:21] <mdeslaur> tyhicks: I'll mark it as fix released thanks.
[16:21] <tyhicks> mdeslaur: I'll fix that, too
[16:21] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris or brendand
[16:22] <pitti> slangasek: I asked mvo about apt, and will move the compiz one (release got delayed)
[16:22] <mlegris> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000753.html
[16:22] <slangasek> pitti: the apt one is pretty critical from our side and I'm working with him to get something in fwiw
[16:22] <mlegris> usual weekly testing, next week we'll be starting on A2
[16:22] <pitti> slangasek: yes, I fully agree
[16:22] <slangasek> (where by "working with" I mean "testing and repeatedly reporting regressions" :P)
[16:22] <mlegris> ..
[16:23] <slangasek> mlegris: thanks
[16:23] <slangasek> questions for mlegris?
[16:23] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
[16:24] <jibel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000767.html
[16:24] <jibel> as pitti mentioned bug 922478 is fixed but alternate is still failing with bug 922646
[16:25] <cjwatson> wut
[16:25] <cjwatson> I rebuilt it to fix that and tested that report.html was empty now
[16:25] <cjwatson> are you *sure*
[16:25] <cjwatson> oh sorry, misread, you mean a different bug now
[16:25] <pitti> jibel: well, I fixed the most probable cause of it, I haven't actually re-tested; but I wouldn't see what's wrong now
[16:25] <pitti> ah, likewise, sorry
[16:26] <jibel> this is the only issue, no problem with server, and we'll review desktop images
[16:26] <jibel> ..
[16:26] <slangasek> cjwatson, jibel: should 922646 be targeted to alpha-2?  or should this be release-noted off for this milestone?
[16:26] <cjwatson> grumble - I'll have a look
[16:26] <slangasek> (IMHO it's not alpha-critical)
[16:26] <cjwatson> slangasek: we're going to run into it in iso testing anyway so better deal with it for a2
[16:26] <cjwatson> imo
[16:26] <slangasek> ok
[16:27] <slangasek> bug twiddled
[16:27] <slangasek> any other questions for jibel?
[16:28] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
[16:28] <mdeslaur> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000754.html
[16:28] <mdeslaur> nothing further to report
[16:28] <slangasek> questions for mdeslaur?
[16:28] <mdeslaur> I've adjusted a couple of bugs
[16:28] <mdeslaur> ..
[16:29] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
[16:29] <ogasawara> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000755.html
[16:29] <ogasawara> As noted in my email, we intend to upload our final Alpha-2 kernel
[16:29] <ogasawara> today.  If there are any fixes needing to land, I/we need to know about
[16:29] <ogasawara> them now.
[16:29] <ogasawara> Any questions?
[16:29] <ogasawara> ..
[16:30] <slangasek> does the new kernel fix my laptop's 15% suspend failure rate? ;)
[16:30] <slangasek> moving on :)
[16:30] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
[16:30] <cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000768.html - sorry for late posting this week
[16:30] <cjwatson> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-foundations.html
[16:30] <cjwatson> We've caught up very slightly this week, but not by much.  Trying to make progress on upgrade handling which is a major outstanding chunk of work.
[16:30] <cjwatson> ..
[16:31] <slangasek> possibly of note is the resolvconf package landing in the seeds overnight, which has caused some upgrade and livecd failures
[16:31] <slangasek> I will be available for tarring and feathering after the meeting
[16:32] <ogasawara> slangasek: rls-p-tracking-bugs.html is back
[16:32] <slangasek> in the meantime, stgraber is working on getting those regressions fixed today
[16:32] <slangasek> ogasawara: thanks
[16:32] <slangasek> any other questions for foundations?
[16:32] <cjwatson> yes, I kicked some of the livecd builds but not all
[16:32] <stgraber> yeah! having a lot of fun fixing the world ;) (just discovered that LXC is broken too :))
[16:32] <cjwatson> due mostly to patch piloting this morning thoroughly distracting me
[16:34] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - arosales
[16:34] <arosales> Hello
[16:34] <arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000774.html
[16:34] <arosales> Still have a bug list we are working through, but oo critical bugs atm, openstack automation testing framwork now live.  MaaS also taking shape, and Juju Charm automated testing well underway.
[16:34] <arosales> Any questions?
[16:35] <arosales> s/oo/no/
[16:35] <arosales> ..
[16:35] <slangasek> arosales: any bugs that are a concern for your team for alpha-2 that aren't already on the targeted list?
[16:35] <arosales> not that I am aware of.
[16:36] <slangasek> ok, thanks
[16:36] <slangasek> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
[16:36] <arosales> sure, np.
[16:36] <ogra_> thats me !
[16:36] <ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000777.html
[16:37] <ogra_> i dont really know much about the d-i stuff yet, since that only came up yesterday and NCommander hasnt been around all day ...
[16:37] <ogra_> but i know that he (was supposed to) talked to cjwatson yaesterday about it
[16:37] <ogra_> ..
[16:38] <ogra_> cjwatson, anything to add on the plans ?
[16:38] <ogra_> ..
[16:38] <slangasek> ogra_: well, AIUI your team is asking for a d-i build for a kernel that we aren't even remotely going to consider providing security support for
[16:38] <ogra_> slangasek, right, my thought was to use a PPA, but michael claims that doesnt work
[16:38] <ogra_> ..
[16:39] <slangasek> I advised NCommander yesterday that the best option under the circumstances is probably to clone the d-i source package, maintaining it as a bzr branch, and push this separate package to universe
[16:39] <ogra_> ok
[16:39] <slangasek> cjwatson: ^^ not sure if you agree with that
[16:39] <slangasek> (we can also take this out-of-band for further discussion)
[16:39] <ogra_> sound like a lot extra work vs using a PPA though
[16:40] <ogra_> right, and its michaels project, i'm only the (uninformed) reporter here :)
[16:40] <ogra_> ..
[16:40] <slangasek> any other questions for ARM?
[16:40] <fabo> o/
[16:40] <cjwatson> slangasek: that sounds highly unpleasant ...
[16:40] <fabo> ogra_: any eta for m5 kernel tree to use?
[16:40] <slangasek> cjwatson: the whole thing is highly unpleasant, AFAICS :)
[16:41] <ogra_> fabo, its in the hands of linaro
[16:41] <fabo> mx5
[16:41] <cjwatson> I'd rather just hack d-i to build this image out of universe :P
[16:41] <ogra_> slangasek, cjwatson thats why i said PPA from the start ....
[16:41] <cjwatson> it won't make the situation particularly worse except that the images will end up in main/installer-arm*/
[16:41] <cjwatson> but they'll do that if you clone d-i too
[16:41] <slangasek> ogra_: cdimage pulling from a ppa is no less unpleasant
[16:41] <cjwatson> ... and there's no code for that
[16:41] <ogra_> cdimage ?
[16:42] <cjwatson> and PPAs don't support d-i custom uploads
[16:42] <ogra_> all we need is a netinst image
[16:42] <slangasek> that's not what I was told
[16:42] <cjwatson> you won't get that from a PPA
[16:42] <slangasek> anyway, let's offline this
[16:42] <ogra_> oh, ok
[16:42] <fabo> ogra_: sounds like we're asking to your team if we should use 3.1 or 3.2
[16:42] <ogra_> right, i'm to uninformed to even remotely discuss it
[16:42] <ogra_> ..
[16:43] <ogra_> fabo, ah, well, iirc that kernel is in universe, while 3.2 would be preferred we could live with a lower version
[16:43] <fabo> ok
[16:43] <fabo> ..
[16:43] <ogra_> the images we roll from it are community supported ones
[16:43] <ogra_> ..
[16:44] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
[16:44] <fabo> hi
[16:44] <fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000776.html
[16:44] <fabo> the only question I had, has been asked (mx5)
[16:44] <fabo> any questions?
[16:44] <fabo> ..
[16:45] <ogra_> funny how we both always write the same about the unity merge *g*
[16:45] <ogra_> ..
[16:45] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
[16:46] <slangasek> no report on list
[16:46] <slangasek> no joshuahoover in channel
[16:46] <slangasek> so, moving on
[16:46] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
[16:46] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000761.html
[16:46] <pitti> nothign to add to that ATM, any questions?
[16:46] <pitti> ..
[16:47] <slangasek> pitti: I know that there's an openoffice.org upgrade ordering issue that's causing some upgrade test failures in jenkins; is that anything you guys are planning to tackle before a-2?
[16:47] <pitti> oh, again?
[16:47] <pitti> slangasek: wasn't, but I can add it to my list; I suppose there's a bug for it already
[16:48] <slangasek> "again" - I thought it's been pretty continuous :)
[16:48] <dbarth> pitti: o/
[16:48] <slangasek> jibel: do you have that bug number handy?
[16:48] <pitti> slangasek: I looked at it during my december stable+1 shift, but maybe it came back with the new lo
[16:48] <pitti> bug 917153 ?
[16:49] <slangasek> yes, that's the one
[16:49] <pitti> that's something Sweetshark started working on
[16:49] <jibel> pitti, that's it.
[16:49] <pitti> but he's on holidays now
[16:49] <slangasek> ok
[16:49] <slangasek> so that's a "no" for alpha-2, right?
[16:49] <pitti> TBH I don't have much hope that me or someone else has the time to learn LibO packaging and fix that by a2
[16:49] <pitti> yes, pretty much
[16:50] <slangasek> ok
[16:50] <slangasek> anything else for desktop?
[16:50] <pitti> I'll fix the lightdm one on Monday
[16:50] <slangasek> dbarth: did you have a question for pitti?
[16:50] <pitti> (autologin conversion)
[16:50] <dbarth> yes, on the x.org upload, wether that contains the xfixes tweaks
[16:50] <dbarth> if you know
[16:51] <pitti> to unblock the configuration migration tests in jenkins
[16:51] <dbarth> otherwise i'll check the changelogs
[16:51] <pitti> dbarth: there were some uploads in RAOF's PPA, and I think they landed yesterday
[16:51] <dbarth> ah, sounds good
[16:51] <dbarth> so we should be unblocked now then
[16:51] <pitti> if https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxfixes/1:5.0-4ubuntu1 is what you were looking for
[16:51] <dbarth> cool
[16:51] <pitti> (that was the help-jason PPA)
[16:51] <dbarth> ;) sounds like it
[16:52] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
[16:52] <dbarth> the status is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:53] <dbarth> we'll ship 5.0 for alpha-2
[16:53] <dbarth> ie, the version that is currently integrated and hopefully stable in precise
[16:53] <dbarth> 5.2 will be out shortly after the freeze is lifted
[16:53] <dbarth> the report contains the rest, compiz stays the same for a-2 again
[16:53] <dbarth> ..
[16:54] <slangasek> dbarth: thanks
[16:54] <slangasek> any questions on unity?
[16:54] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Unity Services and Settings Team  Q&A - olli
[16:54] <olli> status is at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000772.html
[16:55] <olli> the team is currently looking at fixes listed in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ps-p-indicator-refinements
[16:55] <olli> any questions
[16:56] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
[16:56] <Riddell> hi
[16:56] <Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000762.html
[16:57] <Riddell> python-qt4 was broken on arm but a fix is compiling away
[16:57] <Riddell> qtwebkit-source still broken on arm, waiting on infinity to get a fix in to kernel
[16:57] <Riddell> ..
[16:57] <slangasek> questions for Riddell?
[16:57] <ScottK> calligra also compiling away on arm ...
[16:57] <ogra_> as mentioned above :)
[16:57] <ogra_> ..
[16:57] <slangasek> Riddell: what fix into kernel is waited on?
[16:58] <Riddell> slangasek: something to let armhf use higher memory I think
[16:58] <slangasek> I thought that was done same-day last week
[16:58] <slangasek> Riddell: can I suggest you double-check with infinity on the current status?
[16:58] <ScottK> No.  Didn't work.
[16:58] <slangasek> oh
[16:58] <ScottK> slangasek: We did after the meeting last week.
[16:58] <ScottK> Got a rebuild on an upgraded machine done and it still failed.
[16:58] <slangasek> ok
[16:59] <slangasek> I believe that kernel fix has been tested in other contexts, though
[16:59] <slangasek> so if you're still OOMing on build, I think you need to look outside the kernel for the fix
[16:59] <slangasek> because now you're hitting the 3G limit instead of the 2G limit, and that's non-negotiable
[17:00] <slangasek> anyway, I'd suggest following up with infinity
[17:00] <Riddell> ok needs looking into then
[17:00] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
[17:00] <stgraber> hello
[17:00] <slangasek> (apologies again for the late start to the meeting)
[17:00] <stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000758.html
[17:01] <slangasek> any questions on Edubuntu?
[17:01] <stgraber> Daviey: I started the update of LTSP today as it needs fixing for resolvconf, hopefully it'll be uploaded this weekend (if testing doesn't show any major breakage as I don't want to break alpha2 :))
[17:01] <highvoltage> and Edubuntu is in UDW next week
[17:02] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
[17:02] <stgraber> worst case scenerio, I'll cherry-pick the fix for resolvconf into our current LTSP and will look at fixing the udeb to avoid the current race condition (release targeted bug for alpha-2)
[17:02] <stgraber> ..
[17:02] <madnick> hi
[17:02] <slangasek> stgraber: oops, sorry
[17:02] <madnick> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000763.html
[17:03] <madnick> That is all I know :)
[17:03] <madnick> ..
[17:03] <slangasek> any questions on Xubuntu?
[17:03] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
[17:04] <scott-work> see: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000759.html
[17:04] <scott-work>  work items: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
[17:04] <scott-work> thanks again to cjwatson for live-dvd work!
[17:04] <cjwatson> np
[17:04] <scott-work> a large concern right now is the lightdm-greeter problem which prevents x from starting on an install
[17:04] <scott-work> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/922424
[17:04] <scott-work> ..
[17:05] <scott-work> oh, and pitti asked questions in the email that i hope i satisfactorily asnwered
[17:05] <scott-work> ..
[17:06] <slangasek> I see feedback on the bug from superm1 suggesting that this needs to be fixed in whatever greeter package ubuntustudio is using
[17:07] <slangasek> scott-work: feel free to bring it to #ubuntu-devel if that doesn't do the trick
[17:07] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
[17:07] <gilir> hi
[17:07] <gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000769.html
[17:07] <gilir> ..
[17:08] <slangasek> any questions on Lubuntu?
[17:08] <pitti> sorry, I need to run out now
[17:08] <slangasek> pitti: ack - thanks
[17:08] <slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
[17:08] <Laney> hiya
[17:08] <slangasek> Laney: hey there
[17:08] <Laney> not much to report, ppc backlog is a bit of a concern
[17:09] <Laney> also ftbfs are a bit high so we should do something about that
[17:09] <Laney> and thanks to the patch pilots: sponsor queue is heading in the right direction
[17:09] <Laney> :-)
[17:09] <Laney> ..
[17:10] <slangasek> Laney: any particulars on ftbfs that are worth drawing out, or is it general archive malaise?
[17:10] <slangasek> (or un-analyzed)
[17:11] <Laney> I haven't analysed it yet, but another drive like we had last cycle would be nice (don't know if a rebuild is planned to get the numbers refreshed)
[17:11] <slangasek> doko is planning a rebuild now-ish
[17:11] <slangasek> I don't know if it encompasses universe however... actually that might be a toolchain test rebuild
[17:11] <slangasek> so nevermind
[17:11] <slangasek> please talk to doko about your needS :)
[17:11] <Laney> I just looked at qa.uw.c/ftbfs
[17:12] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions?
[17:12] <slangasek> anything else?
[17:12] <slangasek> 'cause I know you're all eager to spend more time in a meeting at your EOW :)
[17:12] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[17:12] <meetingology`> Meeting ended Fri Jan 27 17:12:40 2012 UTC.
[17:12] <meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-27-16.05.moin.txt
[17:12] <slangasek> thanks everyone!
[17:12] <Laney> thanks
[17:12] <madnick> thanks
[17:13] <arosales> slangasek: Thanks for being the chair, have a good weekend.
[17:13] <ogra_> thanks slangasek
[17:14] <stgraber> thanks!
[17:26] <doko> slangasek, Laney: four rebuilds: main/rebuild, main/4.7, universe/rebuild, universe/4.7
[17:29] <slangasek> doko: so those results will feed into qa.uw.c/ftbfs, yes?
[18:06] <doko> slangasek, yes
[18:12] <ajmitch> stefano-palazzo: sorry to disappoint, I haven't sen any other ARB people around
[18:17] <jrgifford> ajmitch :(
[18:18] <stgraber> ajmitch: hey :)
[18:19] <ajmitch> hi stgraber
[18:19] <stgraber> ajmitch: sorry, have been fighting resolvconf related issues since I woke up...
[18:19] <ajmitch> no problem :)
[18:19] <ajmitch> got the live cd builds working again?
[18:19] <stgraber> oh yeah, that was the easy bit :)
[18:20] <stgraber> then, ubiquity failed, netcfg fails in some corner cases, LXC failed, schroot failed, LTSP still fails, ... :)
[18:20] <ajmitch> so far, just 2 from the ARB & one apology for being a bit late, worth starting a meeting?
[18:21] <stgraber> I think I only have the chroots and LTSP left on the list at the moment (but I have a fix for the chroot bit at least)
[18:21] <stgraber> hmm, let me try a mass ping of ARB members
[18:21] <ajmitch> that's a lot of fallout
[18:21] <stgraber> at least highvoltage was on IRC a few minutes ago
[18:22] <stgraber> yeah, that's a long list, we mostly got caught by build/install issues, I'm not aware of any breakage on existing systems at least
[18:22] <stgraber> wendar, highvoltage: ping?
[18:22] <wendar> hi
[18:23] <ajmitch> hi wendar
[18:23] <wendar> sorry, my caledar shows the meeting as 36 minutes from now, for some reason
[18:23] <wendar> probably a time-zone thing
[18:24] <ajmitch> most likely, fridge calendar is a bit funny with that
[18:25] <stgraber> #startmeeting ARB meeting
[18:25] <meetingology`> Meeting started Fri Jan 27 18:25:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[18:25] <meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:25] <stgraber> sorry if I'm a bit distracted, I'm being poked on a few channels at the moment ;)
[18:25] <stgraber> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
[18:25] <ajmitch> it's ok, I'm still trying to wake up :)
[18:25] <stgraber> #topic Apps which modify system settings (ubuntu-tweak, grub-customizer) -- AndrewMitchell
[18:26] <ajmitch> we had a brief discussion about this one in #ubuntu-arb yesterday, that we have some submissions which fiddle with the system (installing packages, touching files in /etc)
[18:28] <ajmitch> currently we have a general policy that such things aren't allowed, but there's no definitive place we can point people at for what's acceptable
[18:28] <wendar> that's true
[18:28] <wendar> there's the early documents, but it's not a clear list
[18:28] <wendar> it would be better to have one page
[18:28] <stgraber> right, I think we should go with a whitelist on that rather than a blacklist
[18:28] <ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review has some of our other rules, PostReleaseApps/SecurityChecklist has a whole lot more
[18:29] <wendar> stgraber: I like that, it has a more positive tone
[18:29] <stgraber> along the lines of is allowed to write to an app specific directory in the user's home directory and can use gconf/gsettings to affect desktop settings if that's the result of a user's direct action in the UI and is revertable
[18:29] <ajmitch> I'd like to be able to reject those apps with a good response, and get information on developer.ubuntu.com linking to what we'll accept
[18:30] <highvoltage> stgraber: pong
[18:30] <stgraber> I don't want an app that starts messing in gconf/gsettings when it opens without it being a visible opt-in switch
[18:30] <ajmitch> alright
[18:31] <ajmitch> you've probably seen that there's a fair discussion on ubuntu-desktop about ccsm & related apps
[18:31] <wendar> indeed
[18:32] <stgraber> indeed and I'm not necessarily against apps like that in extras, but they shouldn't do anything by default, make it clear to the user about what will be changed when they click something and ensure that reverting the change works
[18:33] <stgraber> (so effectively, that'd be a no-go for ccsm as the part about reverting changes doesn't seem to work too well ;))
[18:33] <ajmitch> unfortunately ubuntu-tweak is a bit of a kitchen sink, it adds/removes packages & manages PPAs as well
[18:33] <stgraber> right, ubuntu-tweak is a clear no-go if only for its use of gksudo, touching /etc and adding repositories
[18:34] <stgraber> we don't even allow packages in the archive to add PPAs (well, except the packaging tools themselves) :)
[18:34] <highvoltage> stgraber: so is ccsm being dropped from the archive?
[18:34] <ajmitch> highvoltage: as it stands, it's likely
[18:35] <Pendulum> Before you drop it can someone see how much work it's going to be to make the screen magnifier accessible in other ways? (including the options to set type of zoom and level of zoom)
[18:35] <ajmitch> grub-customizer has an open debian ITP, so probably better to help the author get it in there
[18:35] <stgraber> highvoltage, Pendulum: it might get dropped, anyway, that's not a discussion for the ARB to have, please discuss it on the mailing lists :)
[18:35] <ajmitch> Pendulum: we're not the ones dropping it, we're trying to sort out what's acceptable for extras.ubuntu.com
[18:35] <Pendulum> ajmitch: okay, couldn't tell who was making the final decision. Sorry!
[18:36] <wendar> ajmitch: yes, agreed grub-customizer is better through the Debian process
[18:36] <stgraber> ajmitch: right, I don't believe grub-customizer would be suitable for the ARB, so we should indeed drop it and help get it in Debian
[18:36] <ajmitch> ok, I'll try & put aside some time for that & tell them in the rejection email :)
[18:37] <ajmitch> so as a general rule, the AppReviewBoard/Review page is a good place to put the guidelines about what an app can do?
[18:38] <wendar> ajmitch: It might be worth creating a simple AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines page
[18:38] <ajmitch> alright
[18:38] <wendar> that's just a list of "what we accept"
[18:39] <ajmitch> I can add that, and a canned response on the Responses page
[18:39] <stgraber> that'd be grat, thanks
[18:39] <stgraber> *great
[18:40] <wendar> awesome, thanks!
[18:40] <stgraber> #action ajmitch to reply to grub-customizer and have the packaging process continue in Debian
[18:40] <meetingology`> ACTION: ajmitch to reply to grub-customizer and have the packaging process continue in Debian
[18:40] <ajmitch> stgraber: thanks, you're quicker than I am :)
[18:40] <stgraber> #action ajmitch to work on AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines (basic list of guidelines for app going to extras.u.c and some canned responses)
[18:40] <meetingology`> ACTION: ajmitch to work on AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines (basic list of guidelines for app going to extras.u.c and some canned responses)
[18:41] <stgraber> I guess based on that page we can then go through the queue and do some mass rejection? (not sure how many we have but at least ubuntu-tweak should be rejected)
[18:41] <ajmitch> there shouldn't be too many
[18:42] <stgraber> good
[18:42] <stgraber> #topic Complexity criteria of app submissions
[18:43] <stgraber> so to quote what I said yesterday on IRC
[18:43] <stgraber> 23:46 < stgraber> 15:41 <stgraber> I believe they are basically "no bundled libraries" (which gets us rid of 99% of the java stuff) and "no more code than a human can reasonably  read and  understand in an hour"
[18:43] <stgraber> (yeah, I've been copy/pasting that one a few times ;))
[18:44] <wendar> no bundled libraries at all?
[18:44] <ajmitch> we did allow bundling some libraries if necessary, last time we sorted out rules
[18:44] <ajmitch> just not bundling updated copies of what's in the archive
[18:44] <wendar> like, if a python game uses a couple of self-written objects for data?
[18:44] <wendar> ah, yes agreed
[18:44] <ajmitch> certainly not bundling .jar files though :)
[18:44] <highvoltage> that sounds very nice, especially for the arb reviewers, but wouldn't that make it hard to ship games?
[18:45] <stgraber> if the "library"/"module" is part of the upstream code, fine
[18:45] <stgraber> I just don't want to have apps containing bundled external libraries in their code
[18:45] <highvoltage> (actually, scratch that, I was thinking of things like Oil Rush, but that's not even an ARB app in the first place)
[18:45] <stgraber> because it becomes a security/bugfix/legal nightmare pretty quickly
[18:45] <wendar> yup, we don't want to be maintaining that
[18:47] <stgraber> not sure how we want to word it in the guidelines, but the idea is that we'd reject anything that bundles libraries/modules/whatever that can be found as a separate entity (so outside of the upstream project)
[18:47] <wendar> We can word it mostly positively
[18:49] <wendar> You can include any libraries that are part of your app, for example...
[18:50] <stgraber> yeah, we should try to be a bit positive about it (though it's a bit difficult to make that kind of criteria positive ;)).
[18:50] <wendar> If your app depends on external libraries, please make sure that your app runs on the current versions shipped in Ubuntu.
[18:50] <ajmitch> it's also hard to make "your source is too big" positive :)
[18:50] <wendar> (that implies a negative, but states it as a positive)
[18:50] <stgraber> I'm sure we'd have submissions arguing on the "are part of your app" part saying that their upstream "source" tarball contains all these .jar and so it's "part of their app" :)
[18:51] <stgraber> wendar: +1 for that one
[18:51] <ajmitch> stgraber: fine, but we also have requirements that the app be buildable from source, afaik
[18:51] <stgraber> ajmitch: indeed, which is why we should have rejected all of these with bundled .jar a long time ago
[18:51] <ajmitch> the page links to the licensing policy which requires full source
[18:52] <ajmitch> yeah, I should have rejected those that I've seen, sorry
[18:52] <wendar> ajmitch: How about something like "Our focus is on lightweight apps. To give you a general idea, we're looking for the kind of apps that could be reviewed in about an hour reading through the code."
[18:53] <ajmitch> wendar: that sounds good
[18:53] <stgraber> wendar: that in addition to the "If your app depends on external libraries, please make sure that your app runs on the current versions shipped in Ubuntu." would be great
[18:53] <ajmitch> an hour might be a little too lightweight, but it's a start
[18:53] <wendar> yeah, I could see spending a couple of hours
[18:53] <wendar> it's just to give them a rough guideline
[18:54] <stgraber> with review here meaning just scanning through the code and figuring out what the app does, in that hour I didn't count licensing review or any actual testing of the app and packaging
[18:54] <wendar> (and programmers always underestimate, so if we say one hour, we'll probably get 5)
[18:55] <ajmitch> There's an empty page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines if you want to put them there
[18:55] <stgraber> wendar: can you add these two to the guidelines?
[18:55] <wendar> yes, will do
[18:57] <stgraber> #action wendar to update AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines to include a note on bundling libraries and complexity (review time) criteria
[18:57] <meetingology`> ACTION: wendar to update AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines to include a note on bundling libraries and complexity (review time) criteria
[18:57] <stgraber> #topic General status of the ARB queue
[18:57] <stgraber> so the queue still looks pretty long
[18:58] <ajmitch> it seems like the budapest sprint knocked a few off the list, and you've done a good job with getting some lenses in
[18:59] <ajmitch> I'm trying to find spare time to focus on 1 or 2 apps at a time & try & get them through
[18:59] <highvoltage> if there's something I should/could look at let me know
[18:59] <ajmitch> highvoltage: 'all of the above'? :)
[18:59] <stgraber> I'm not sure all the changes that were listed on the mailing list by non ARB members have been applied to the queue (these from Daniel and Michael), would be good to make sure they didn't do these reviews for nothing
[19:00] <ajmitch> the myapps page looks to be sorted by submission date (or ID) now
[19:00] <stgraber> ajmitch: seems to be by ID
[19:01] <ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-January/000274.html
[19:01] <ajmitch> ^ dholbach's reviews
[19:01] <wendar> which would end up being by submission date, since they're auto-incrementing
[19:02] <ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-January/000314.html
[19:02] <ajmitch> ^ mvo's reviews
[19:03] <stgraber> wendar: right, by initial submission date, not by last submission (which is shown as the Since. column)
[19:03] <ajmitch> doesn't really matter about the particulars of the sorting, I was more suggesting we work from the top down, to get the oldest ones moving
[19:04] <stgraber> highvoltage: can you look at these two e-mails and make sure the changes have been sent through myapps?
[19:04] <highvoltage> stgraber: ok, I can do so tomorrow
[19:04] <stgraber> #action highvoltage to make sure Daniel and Michael's review have been sent through MyApps
[19:04] <meetingology`> ACTION: highvoltage to make sure Daniel and Michael's review have been sent through MyApps
[19:04] <wendar> stgraber: aye, I guess last submission could be useful for watching what's been updated
[19:05] <stgraber> wendar: indeed
[19:05] <stgraber> anything else about the queue?
[19:06]  * ajmitch has nothing more to add at the moment
[19:06] <stgraber> Just a quick reminder to not touch the PendingQA ones, hopefully these will be moved to published soon (still waiting for the updated software-center)
[19:06] <ajmitch> voting on the list seems to be a good way to do it
[19:07] <stgraber> at the moment we need to use some hybrid MyApps/package metadata hack to get things to show up on the software-center, so before uploading a package to extras.ubuntu.com, please let me know and I'll make sure everything is right
[19:07] <stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
[19:07] <ajmitch> ok
[19:07] <stgraber> any volunteer?
[19:08] <highvoltage> ok I'll bite
[19:08]  * ajmitch can do it, with sufficient caffeine
[19:08] <stgraber> #action highvoltage to chair the next ARB meeting
[19:08] <meetingology`> ACTION: highvoltage to chair the next ARB meeting
[19:08] <stgraber> #topic AOB
[19:08] <stgraber> anything else?
[19:08] <ajmitch> none from me
[19:09] <highvoltage> nope, exhausted busy conferencing :)
[19:09] <ajmitch> just a general note that filing bugs on developer-portal can be useful if there are things that annoy you about myapps
[19:09] <highvoltage> (or from too much pizza)
[19:09] <stgraber> #endmeeting
[19:09] <meetingology`> Meeting ended Fri Jan 27 19:09:42 2012 UTC.
[19:09] <meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-27-18.25.moin.txt
[19:09] <stgraber> ok, thanks everyone!
[19:09] <ajmitch> stgraber: thank you
[19:10] <highvoltage> thanks stgraber