[00:02] <rick_h> gah, OLF talk submissions are open. /me ponders
[00:03] <rick_h> ok, now that the boy is in bed I get the honor of going out and shoveling the driveway, yay me
[00:05] <snap-l> w00t
[00:05] <snap-l> Did that already
[00:17] <snap-l> http://www.cafepress.com/soullesstees.440929848
[00:19] <brousch> kind of dark outside
[00:32] <tjagoda> Indeed, shovel during day!
[02:32] <tjagoda> 15:30 UTC/GMT is 10:30AM our time, yes?
[02:32] <tjagoda> I assume that my brain can do math
[02:32] <tjagoda> But
[02:32] <tjagoda> You know what they say about those assumptions.
[02:33] <rick_h> add 5 hours
[02:33] <rick_h> so yea, you're right
[02:34] <tjagoda> That is when my brief phone call from Matt is
[02:35] <rick_h> cool, matt is a good guy
[02:42] <tjagoda> Hopefully
[02:42] <tjagoda> He does not tell me my ambitions are larger than the scope of the role
[03:16] <snap-l> Phew
[03:16] <snap-l> Just finished up the dishes
[11:29] <mydogsnameisrudy> morning
[12:07] <rick_h> morning
[12:35] <snap-l> I <3 BeautifulStoneSoup
[12:35] <snap-l> forgot that audacity uses XML files for the .aup file
[12:35] <snap-l> and am using that to figure out track starts
[12:44] <rick_h> Stone?
[12:53] <rick_h> http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Management/Why-are-software-development-task-estimations-regularly-off-by-a-factor-of-2-3
[13:00] <rick_h> http://abstrusegoose.com/432
[13:00] <rick_h> good day for code jokes
[13:01] <snap-l> BeautifulStoneSoup is the XML component for BeautifulSoup
[13:01] <rick_h> oh, cool. Never used anything but BS
[13:05] <brousch> i believe that
[13:05] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, it knocks the pants off of anthing else I've used for parsing XML
[13:07] <rick_h> http://lxml.de/ is what I usually use for that when I have to
[13:12] <brousch> grpug folks love lxml
[13:12] <rick_h> yea, it's got C extensions, fast, and supports more xml bits than others though I don't normally need xpath and all taht
[13:14] <brousch> Adam Williams loves xml, and he loves lxml
[13:14] <rick_h> there's always one nut :P
[13:30] <Raggs> how difucult is it to remove kubuntu desktop once an alternative is installed?
[13:32] <mydogsnameisrudy> http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/purekde
[13:34] <Raggs> close, but that [age shows how to remove everything but kde
[13:34] <mydogsnameisrudy> oh sorry ;)
[13:34] <brousch> pretty much impossible
[13:36] <mydogsnameisrudy> i see that no commands for that?
[13:37] <brousch> you can sudo apt-get remove --purge kubuntu-desktop
[13:37] <brousch> but that doesn't really remove anything
[13:38] <Raggs> ok
[13:38] <Raggs> n
[13:38] <mydogsnameisrudy> so looks like a reload of ubuntu
[13:39] <brousch> it doesn't hurt anything to leave it in
[13:56] <rick_h> http://paste.mitechie.com/show/522/ in case you don't follow the CHC mailing list
[13:57] <snap-l> rick_h: Was that the show and tell idea?
[13:57] <rick_h> snap-l: yea
[13:58] <snap-l> Yeah, that looks interesting
[13:58] <snap-l> Maybe we could incorporate that into the long-edition?
[13:58] <rick_h> I can't decide. On the one hand, sure cool to see real things
[13:58] <rick_h> on the other, it's not like showing bookie will do me a ton of good, these guys are already doing their own things
[13:58] <rick_h> and how often is the plan to do this, I'll be showing the same thing for the last year lol
[13:59] <snap-l> WEll, how much of it is encouragement, and how much of it is navelgazing
[13:59] <rick_h> right
[13:59] <snap-l> I think it's good to show your stuff when you think it's ready
[13:59] <rick_h> yea, definitely
[13:59] <rick_h> but that's what I mean I wonder the purpose
[13:59] <snap-l> and maybe it's encouraging to have some arbitrary deadline so you have something to work towars.
[13:59] <rick_h> if it's for design idea/help? Just to show/motivate others?
[14:00] <rick_h> is it just to put the name out there and try to get local business peeps to show off to?
[14:00] <snap-l> bingo.
[14:00] <snap-l> Sounds like VC fodder. ;)
[14:00] <rick_h> which might be unfair to say :)
[14:00] <brousch> but all the business peeps would have to show something too
[14:00] <rick_h> but it has that potential
[14:01] <brousch> the "must show" requirement to attend will turn off many people
[14:01] <rick_h> brousch: yea, definitely
[14:01] <brousch> a lot of people
[14:01] <rick_h> but helps prevent a meeting of 10 people where only one guy gets up to show something
[14:01] <rick_h> I can understand it
[14:47] <snap-l> http://justinsomnia.org/2011/03/why-does-that-qr-code-take-me-to-justinsomnia-org/ <- Bwahahaha
[14:48] <rick_h> widox: http://element34.ca/blog/introducing-phpwebdriver
[14:48] <rick_h> O dpm
[14:48] <rick_h> I don't know why that strikes me as so wrong...php webdriver ugh
[14:48] <rick_h> and ignore the Odpm, that's what happens at a standing desk when you step away and come back to the keyboard just off a key
[14:49] <snap-l> oson?
[14:49] <snap-l> rick_h: What's so wrong about a PHP web driver?
[14:50] <rick_h> I don't know, it just irks...I guess it's like php shell scripting is what is comes down to
[14:50] <snap-l> Though PHP should get something like injection testing. ;)
[14:50] <rick_h> even when I did php work, using it so script shell stuff was something that set my teeth on edge
[14:50] <snap-l> "Your code has 3,203 SQL injection attacks"
[14:50] <rick_h>  /so/to
[14:51] <brousch> there are php/gtk bindings
[14:51] <brousch> try to beat that level of wrongness
[14:51] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, I've seen some of those. It does tend to grate
[14:52] <snap-l> brousch: One could argue that Javascript bindings for GTK wouold be just as bad, were it not for Javascript's prominence on the server side
[14:52] <snap-l> http://zetcode.com/gui/javascriptgtktutorial/introduction/
[14:52] <ColonelPanic001> my god, it's nearly February and I still can't register for Penguicon. For a tech-related con, you'd think it was being run by my technophobic grandmother.
[14:52] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: Yeah, there have been some issues
[14:53] <rick_h> snap-l: come on, I thought Gnome Shell was all JS
[14:53] <rick_h> JS to rule them all!
[14:53] <ColonelPanic001> snap-l: every year is like this, though.
[14:53] <snap-l> It's like I've woken up in bizarro world.
[14:53] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: I liken it to a racecar, on fire, skidding to the finish line
[14:54] <snap-l> Somehow it manages to get 1st place, and still be awesome
[14:54] <snap-l> but damned if I'd drive it like that
[14:54] <ColonelPanic001> "You should go to Penguicon, random person!" "Yeah? What's going on there this year?"  "I have no f'ing idea! And I won't until the week of the event!"
[14:54] <snap-l> It's kinda like the Mystery Dum Dum Sucker
[14:54] <ColonelPanic001> maybe someone can do a presentation on "How to install a damn wordpress site"
[14:55] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: Actually, waldo323 is working on it
[14:55] <ColonelPanic001> "lol are custom see-are-m dont work"
[14:55] <snap-l> It's not quite as simple as you might imagine
[14:55] <ColonelPanic001> "THEN JUST INSTALL WORDPRESS OR SOMETHING IT'S JUST A STATIC SITE ANYWAY"
[14:55] <snap-l> Be nice.
[14:56] <ColonelPanic001> :\
[14:56] <snap-l> I'm sure the adage of "patches welcome" would apply.
[14:56] <ColonelPanic001> I would gladly install wordpress for them.
[14:56] <brousch> ooooooh, ColonelPanic001, benevolent leader snap-l is gonna CoC-slap you!
[14:56] <ColonelPanic001> haha
[14:56] <ColonelPanic001> It won't be too traumatizing. I've seen the CoC before. :(
[14:56] <snap-l> Nah, not going that far
[14:58] <ColonelPanic001> It can't be too bad. I go back every year.
[14:58] <ColonelPanic001> it'd just be nice to know, once, what it is I'm registering for.
[14:58] <rick_h> lol
[14:58] <snap-l> It's a surprise. :)
[14:58] <rick_h> the problem isn't that you don't know what you're registering for, it's that you do know, and it's not the talks
[14:58] <snap-l> I don't think half of the presenters know they're presenting yet
[14:59] <snap-l> I mean, rick_h doesn't know he's doing some python presentation at Penguicon yet.
[14:59] <brousch> they should just make it a barcamp
[14:59] <ColonelPanic001> "Surprise! The only things on the schedule are stuff about chakras and auras!"
[14:59] <rick_h> snap-l doesn't know I'm not going yet
[14:59] <rick_h> to the coffee shop!
[14:59] <snap-l> rick_h doesn't know that while he thinks he's not going, he's still going
[14:59] <rick_h> nananananananananana code-man!
[15:00] <ColonelPanic001> any of you losers on Diaspora?
[15:01] <brousch> all of us!
[15:01] <brousch> that's where all of the actual useful content is
[15:01] <ColonelPanic001> I'm going to add Craig and then talk about nothing but whining about Penguicon
[15:03] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: I deleted my Diaspora account
[15:03] <ColonelPanic001> it got too mainstream
[15:03] <snap-l> hah
[15:03] <snap-l> No, unfortunately it didn't really pan out for me
[15:03] <brousch> more popular than identica
[15:04] <snap-l> Relaly?
[15:04] <snap-l> brousch: POint me to something useful on diaspora
[15:04] <brousch> i can't. you deleted your account
[15:04] <ColonelPanic001> can't you...
[15:04] <snap-l> Feh
[15:04] <ColonelPanic001> damnit brousch
[15:04] <ColonelPanic001> I was in the middle of saying that
[15:06] <snap-l> brousch: I think you're confusing Diaspora with Google Plus
[15:06] <snap-l> It's understandable, though
[15:06] <snap-l> http://www.gizmag.com/diaspora-google-plus-resemblance/20638/
[15:09] <rick_h> never signed up
[15:09]  * snap-l is addicted to Keurig.
[15:11] <rick_h> snap-l: hah, yea I used to use the mocha cups when in the office there
[15:12] <brousch> i assumed keurig was a rock band of some sort
[15:13] <rick_h> heh, no the famous k-cups
[15:13] <rick_h> everyone is making coffee in the k-cups format these days
[15:13] <rick_h> it's the perfect example of the razor/razor blades == $$
[15:14] <brousch> blah, i use a drip machine, bring it in a thermos
[15:14] <ColonelPanic001> k-cups?
[15:14] <rick_h> short for keurig
[15:15] <rick_h> http://www.keurig.com/shop/k-cups/all-k-cups
[15:15] <rick_h> basically single serve cups of all kinds of variety
[15:15] <rick_h> so you stick it in, brew a cup of coffee, toss the cup
[15:15] <brousch> i have used those in hotels
[15:15] <rick_h> morpace has them around the office with some certains flavors
[15:15] <rick_h> I used to bring in my own
[15:15] <brousch> i like using the machine
[15:16] <rick_h> yea, it's a pretty clean/quick way to go but the cost of the cups as a per-serving thing is a bit nuts vs a bag of beans that can last a month
[15:16] <ColonelPanic001> yeah, was going to say
[15:16] <ColonelPanic001> sounds great for vareity, but wasteful
[15:17] <rick_h> yea
[15:18] <snap-l> Well, it's actually pretty effective for a quick cuppa-joe
[15:18] <snap-l> instead of trusting a pot indeterminate-origin coffee.
[15:18] <rick_h> yea, it's very user friendly. That whole convience thing
[15:18] <rick_h> no pot to clean out
[15:18] <rick_h> not the best tasting, but passes
[15:18] <ColonelPanic001> yeah, that part sounds good
[15:18] <brousch> you need a syringe to inject other things into the cartridge before brewing
[15:18] <ColonelPanic001> but, extra packaging, etc, etc, as opposed to the "usual" way
[15:19] <rick_h> ColonelPanic001: right
[15:19] <ColonelPanic001> it would be *awesome*, though, for just getting a massive vareity of stuff to try
[15:19] <brousch> well if the packaging is all recyclable or biodegradable, who cares?
[15:19] <ColonelPanic001> didn't notice right away, they have tea, coffee, etc
[15:19] <ColonelPanic001> brousch: still energy used to make it, and I doubt it is. Maybe though, I didn't look
[15:20] <snap-l> They're decidedly not-green
[15:20] <brousch> i just had a hippie idea. sell a kit to turn the used cartridges into tiny desk plants
[15:20] <ColonelPanic001> brousch: I like it
[15:21] <brousch> a little packet of dirt to mix with the grounds and a seed or two
[15:21] <ColonelPanic001> someone get the patent office in here
[15:21] <snap-l> Save for the hole at the bottom, that's a brilliant idea
[15:21] <snap-l> and the filter media
[15:21] <ColonelPanic001> snap-l: tape or something, maybe?
[15:21] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: Have you ever tried taping a leak?
[15:21] <ColonelPanic001> yeah, maybe just make the cup so that's easy to remove
[15:22] <ColonelPanic001> snap-l: yeah, thoguht that as I typed it
[15:22] <snap-l> ;)
[15:22] <ColonelPanic001> maybe special tape
[15:22] <ColonelPanic001> magic tape
[15:22] <brousch> it needs drainage
[15:23] <brousch> i'll have to look at some cartridges. i think they use it at The Factory coworking place so maybe i can get some today
[15:23] <ColonelPanic001> maybe the box they come in has a wax coating, and is shaped to hold the cups with a small gap below the cup
[15:24] <ColonelPanic001> set cup in there, can drain freely into that
[15:27] <ColonelPanic001> now I'm craving french vanilla cappuccino
[15:27] <ColonelPanic001> >:-|
[15:27] <rick_h> having a vanilla sugar free latte atm :)
[15:28] <brousch> i have switched to soy in my fru-fru coffees
[15:28] <brousch> good stuff
[15:28] <ColonelPanic001> except for rare exceptions, the only coffee I drink is from a local coffeeshop. I rarely "drink coffee" in the usual sense, like at work or home or whatever
[15:29] <ColonelPanic001> and even then it's almost always french vanilla cappuccino, etc. Not just "coffee"
[15:30] <rick_h> ColonelPanic001: +1
[15:31] <rick_h> I was a mocha guy for a long time but been hunting tasty lower calorie versions of coffee that's not real coffee
[15:31] <ColonelPanic001> yeah, that keeps me from drinkning it much
[15:31] <ColonelPanic001> never had mocha
[15:31] <ColonelPanic001> I haven't been very adventerous
[15:32] <rick_h> that's where I found coffee. This place in Flint had a great mocha. whip cream + shaved choc on top
[15:32] <rick_h> was almost a hot sundae
[15:32] <ColonelPanic001> heh
[15:33] <brousch> i drink black decaf coffee 4-5 days a week and biggby decaf soy nutty buddy 1-2
[15:34] <snap-l> Bah, decaf is for wimps
[15:34]  * snap-l loves dark coffeee
[15:34] <rick_h> yea, don't get the point of decaf
[15:34] <snap-l> It's like non-alcoholic beer
[15:35] <rick_h> snap-l: thought of you the other day, caribou was giving away samples of their eclipse stuff
[15:35] <ColonelPanic001> I like french vanilla cappuccino, but sometimes I won't want to be up until 3am. Behold, decaf
[15:35] <ColonelPanic001> :)
[15:35] <rick_h> yea, if I go for that second coffee at CHC it goes decaf
[15:35] <rick_h> but only then
[15:35] <ColonelPanic001> I only get one at all decaf
[15:36] <ColonelPanic001> or I'll be up until morning
[15:36] <ColonelPanic001> damnit. I need to do something about the light in here
[15:36] <brousch> caffeine gives me angina, so i drink decaf
[15:36] <ColonelPanic001> it is beyond me why people would just turn on lights on their desk in a overly bright office where the glare already annoys me
[15:37] <ColonelPanic001> but no, coworker comes in, turns on the under-shelf lights every morning
[15:37] <ColonelPanic001> THE MONITORS LIGHT UP ON THEIR OWN, SMARTY
[15:37] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, I want to try that
[15:38] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah, I fear for that day
[15:38] <snap-l> hypertension, etc.
[15:41] <brousch> i overdid it for a while, super biggby red-eyes with extra shot a couple of times a week. that's 4 shots of espresso in a 24oz coffee. i think i broke something.
[15:42] <brousch> something like 500mg of caffeine
[15:43] <rick_h> ouch
[15:44] <ColonelPanic001> I just seem to be fairly sensitive to caffeine. If I drink a 20oz of Pepsi in the evening, even just 7pm or so, I'll be up until 3am without even realizing it
[15:44] <rick_h> I need ot start backing down. I've noticed that for the last few weeks I've gotten a coffee every day of the week here
[15:44] <rick_h> man, glad I'm not that bad
[15:44] <ColonelPanic001> I have a tendancy to stay up late anyway, but it makes it much worse
[15:49] <rick_h> yea, was proud of myself. Normally without wifely supervision I end up awake hacking at 3am
[15:49] <rick_h> but I was in bed by 11 each night yay!
[15:50] <rick_h> of course I've been sick so that helped
[15:50] <ColonelPanic001> \o/
[15:50] <ColonelPanic001> my girlfriend used to complain, now it's just understood when she goes to bed at 9pm, and I say "I'll be right there in a bit", I mean "like hell, I'll be there in a couple of hours"
[15:50] <rick_h> ll
[15:50] <rick_h> funny thing is that when she's here, I end up in bed before her
[15:51] <rick_h> it's a pure mental thing, strange
[15:52] <snap-l> JoDee's found out that "in a bit" means anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour
[15:52] <snap-l> <- bad boy
[15:53] <ColonelPanic001> it's partially her fault anyway, going to bed at 9pm. I'm not 12.
[15:53] <snap-l> Yeah, I can't go to bed that early.
[15:54] <snap-l> Oh, 3.0 release of Virtualenv wrapper!
[15:55] <rick_h> heh
[16:15] <snap-l> How did we ever do development before virtual machines?
[16:15] <snap-l> Man, I love being able to have a machine that I can just put up and rip apart
[16:15] <snap-l> and if things go pear-shaped, I can tear it down without a care in the world.
[16:16] <brousch> we did it right the first time instead of just trying it out
[16:17] <rick_h> hah, "we were just better"
[16:17] <snap-l> pffft
[16:18] <snap-l> I think we just did it on production, and hoped to God it didn't blow up
[16:18] <snap-l> If you were lucky, you got something called "Staging"
[16:18] <_stink_> sadly.... that is still done
[16:19] <brousch> i was gonna say, i still do that
[16:19] <snap-l> shame
[16:19] <brousch> wait, i have a development copy of my access db
[16:22] <brousch> but foxpro changes happen in production because it's commercial software
[16:22] <snap-l> Ugh
[16:22] <snap-l> See, that pisses me off
[16:23] <snap-l> not that you're doing the best you can
[16:23] <brousch> all i can do is wreck reports though
[16:23] <brousch> unless i got really stupid
[16:23] <snap-l> but that type of software is licensed in such a way that you have to do something sub-optimal
[16:24] <brousch> now that i think about it, if i really tried i could have a development VM for it
[16:25] <snap-l> Go forth, then
[16:25] <brousch> but every time i want to change a report i have to kick every one out, copy GB of files to the dev, let everyone back in, muck around in dev, kick everyone out, make the changes, let everyone back in
[16:26] <_stink_> ew
[16:26] <tjagoda> Ahoy
[16:28] <brousch> yaar
[16:45] <Wolfger> avast
[16:59] <tjagoda> The interview seemed to go well.
[16:59] <tjagoda> Definitely not just a dumb helpdesk position, which is awesome.
[17:05] <Wolfger> You got an interview for Canonical? Awesome! I'm jealous.
[17:05] <rick_h> tjagoda: awesome
[17:10] <snap-l>  http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/humor/ATT_Copyright_true.html
[17:15] <tjagoda> wolfger: just a short 10 minute thing.  I'm supposed to hear in 3 or so days if I get further.
[17:22] <snap-l>  Huh, hadn't really dug into what Hip Hop (the PHP complier) is
[17:23] <snap-l> (was referenced in an article)
[17:29] <rick_h> hip hop == "we chose php for our company and come hell our high water we're going to keep using PHP for our code...scale baby scale!"
[17:30] <snap-l> Heh
[17:30] <snap-l> That's a pretty fair assessment
[17:32] <rick_h> heh, "stupid twitter moving crap to the JVM...should have just hired some compiler nerds to make a super ruby->C compiler so that they could just make ruby faster
[17:33] <greg-g> snap-l: :) thanks for that AT&T/bin/true link
[17:35] <jrwren> that is true.
[17:35] <jrwren> objectiveC is evidence that compiled ruby could be FAST
[17:35] <jrwren> for really fast php, see phlanger :o
[17:36] <snap-l> greg-g: You're welcome. :)
[17:40] <rick_h> I'm missing the object-c/ruby connection?
[17:47] <snap-l> rick_h: I'm glad I'm not the only one
[17:54] <Blazeix> maybe he's referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRuby
[17:59] <rick_h> ah interesting
[17:59] <rick_h> not looked at that much, heard macruby but figured it was like mac-vim
[17:59] <rick_h> ruby with some mac bindings
[18:00] <rick_h> then again I guess I knew ironruby wasn't ruby + windows apis so I'm a moron
[18:03] <snap-l> Man, all of these trans-compiled languages. ;)
[18:04] <snap-l> rick_h: I think you can be forgiven since iron* was targeted to the .net vm
[18:05] <snap-l> I wouldn't have guessed that objective C would be a stepping point for Ruby to Mac.
[18:21] <jrwren> no, not at all.
[18:22] <jrwren> objc/ruby connection because they are VERY similar languages, that is all.
[18:23] <jrwren> all I mean is that given how similar objc is to ruby, there is very little reason for objc to be so fast, and ruby to be slow.
[18:23] <rick_h> I've not looked at a ton of ObjC but I wouldn't have considered them similar
[18:24] <jrwren> certainly not syntax wise, but lang wise it is very similar
[18:24] <jrwren> very similar smalltalk inspired object model
[18:25] <snap-l> jrwren: Isn't objc compiled?
[18:25] <rick_h> gotcha, yea guess as I've never used ObjC I can't really compare at more than superficial levels
[18:26] <jrwren> yes, objc is compiled. that is part of my point. compile ruby. any code that isn't in exec() should compile just fine
[18:30] <snap-l> jrwren: But then you can't monkey-patch. ;)
[18:32] <jrwren> yes you can :p
[18:32] <jrwren> in fact objc formalizes it. its call protocols
[18:32] <jrwren> err.
[18:32] <jrwren> sorry, categories
[18:32] <jrwren> but you don't have to formalize it.
[18:32] <jrwren> objc even lets you do method missing :p
[18:33] <jrwren> its very rubylike AFAICT
[18:34] <snap-l> But then if they make it fast, we'll have to start taking it seriously.
[18:35] <jrwren> it would be unwise to not take it seriously, as is.
[18:35] <snap-l> truth
[18:35] <jrwren> I mean... if google can make JS as fast as V8 makes it... no reason ruby can't be just as fast.
[18:35] <rick_h> what are we not taking seriously? I've lost track?
[18:35] <snap-l> rick_h: ruby
[18:35] <rick_h> oh ruby, I keep poking at ruby then realize I can do it in python
[18:35] <snap-l> 3.2.1.
[18:35] <snap-l> Man, wasn't even fast enough for THAT. :)
[18:36] <rick_h> :P
[18:36] <jrwren> 3.2.1? rails?
[18:36] <jrwren> you can do anything in python
[18:36] <jrwren> but I still use other stuff
[18:36] <rick_h> ask diana about how I was the typing champion
[18:36] <rick_h> jrwren: yea, definitely, I use JS/node for simple socket servers
[18:36] <rick_h> and php when I have to
[18:36] <rick_h> and wheee make files
[18:36] <rick_h> so bash
[18:36] <jrwren> lol.
[18:37] <jrwren> wait, doesn't make just use whatever shell is /bin/sh?  link to zsh FTW!
[18:37] <rick_h> but yea, I've not completed one ruby thing that wasn't just some script for checking battery levels/etc
[18:37] <rick_h> heh, I can't assume that on the prod boxes
[18:37] <rick_h> no zsh ootb with Ubuntu like RH
[18:37] <rick_h> :(
[18:37] <ColonelPanic001> :\
[18:37] <jrwren> cursed production!
[18:49] <brousch> rick so make the first part of every script an installer for zsh
[18:52] <snap-l> rick_h: Oh, it's already come up
[18:53] <rick_h> snap-l: what's come up?
[18:53] <rick_h> zsh?
[18:53] <rick_h> poor zsh has no champion any more at morpace now
[19:01] <snap-l> rick_h: No, the fact that you bested the resident typing champion
[19:02] <rick_h> oh heh :)
[19:02] <snap-l> Apparently I'm failing her as a buddy if I can't make keyboards cry
[19:02] <snap-l> ;)
[19:02] <rick_h> lol, you went clicky right? takes time to build up those finger muscles
[19:03] <snap-l> Nah, I went soft.
[19:03] <snap-l> I have a quiet keyboard.
[19:03] <snap-l> Logitech K520
[19:03] <snap-l> Comes with a M310 mouse
[19:03] <jrwren> no Cherry MX?
[19:04] <jrwren> ive decided ALPS switches are not good enough. i want Cherry MX
[19:04] <snap-l> jrwren: Not to my knowledge.
[19:05] <snap-l> Though I might get something different in the near future
[19:06] <snap-l> this was a nice $50 combo
[19:06] <snap-l> And honestly, it was the least offensive of the keyboards that I tried
[19:06] <snap-l> save for the $100 models that felt only a little bit better
[19:06] <snap-l> but sadly, none of them have the nice tactile feel of my mac keyboard.
[19:07] <rick_h> jrwren: careful, MX feel strange. They're not like the buckling springs
[19:07] <rick_h> jrwren: I've got a pair of cherry mx, one blue and one brown
[19:07] <snap-l> If they didn't sound like a firing range, I'd love the feel of the buckling springs.
[19:07] <rick_h> yea, I miss my buckling springs, I need to sneak that keyboard back from morpace
[19:07] <snap-l> Which one?
[19:07] <snap-l> ;)
[19:08] <rick_h> so I meant to let what's her name "try" it, but seems she thoght I was giving it to her
[19:08] <rick_h> and I forget to clear it up before I left
[19:08] <snap-l> Oh, the typing champ?
[19:08] <rick_h> the person I beat at the typing thing
[19:08] <rick_h> yea
[19:08] <rick_h> blanking on her name now
[19:08] <snap-l> Good luck with that. :)
[19:08] <rick_h> heh, yea I've given it up
[19:08] <snap-l> She watches Dexter. I'm not trying to take thet keyboard away for anything
[19:08] <rick_h> but I've been tempted to go back from cherry MX to buckling springs
[19:09] <brousch> dexter is awesome
[19:09] <rick_h> I REALLY wish they had buckling springs that were 10less
[19:09] <rick_h> <3 the size of the 10less keyboards
[19:11] <jrwren> Dexter is awesome.
[19:11] <brousch> jrwren: impossible. you must contradict me
[19:12] <jrwren> i cannot
[19:14] <brousch> S4 was the bizomb
[19:15] <tjagoda> Where do you even buy a buckling spring keyboard?
[19:15] <tjagoda> There's das keyboard, but I dont think that's the fancy spring you speak of
[19:15] <rick_h> http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Screen=PROD&Category_Code=UltraClassic&Product_Code=UB40P4A
[19:15] <rick_h> I'm getting one right now actually :)
[19:15] <brousch> second hand store near a landfill in china
[19:15] <rick_h> they're bought the IBM patents and are the only ones allowed to make true buckling springs
[19:16] <tjagoda> Oh hello, USB
[19:16] <rick_h> yep
[19:17] <tjagoda> And ludicrously cheaper than http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/
[19:17] <rick_h> yep, and you get true springs
[19:19] <tjagoda> Time to impulse buy
[19:19] <rick_h> follow me on the impulse train!
[19:20] <brousch> i'll have to think about that
[19:20] <greg-g> hilarious: http://store.daskeyboard.com/Reusable-Earplugs/dp/B003ALN3QE
[19:20] <rick_h> and done, will be back to true clicky end of week
[19:21] <rick_h> greg-g: :) nice
[19:21] <rick_h> greg-g: I have had my wife come by the office and shut the door on me before
[19:24] <brousch> it's not too loud unless you can hear it over the drumming in the next room
[19:28] <tjagoda> Impulse purchase complete
[19:28] <tjagoda> The things I'm willing to spend $100 on...
[19:28] <rick_h> tjagoda: woot! welcome to the club
[19:29] <rick_h> tjagoda: careful https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7JlTF6-Yj26LsJlrHByu19MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[19:29] <rick_h> that's only half the ones in the closet :)
[19:29] <tjagoda> I do not subscribe to your fruity ergonomic keyboards
[19:30] <greg-g> *cough* addict *cough*
[19:30] <rick_h> mmmm, a buckling spring having a baby with a MS natural...now THAT would be a keyboard
[19:30] <rick_h> greg-g: everyone's got to have a hobby
[19:31] <jrwren> i drove rick_h to order a new kb!
[19:31] <greg-g> I have 2 friends who swear by the kenesis
[19:31] <rick_h> jrwren: you bastard!
[19:31] <rick_h> greg-g: man, I keep trying but I've got an older model without a key for my tiling needs
[19:31] <rick_h> greg-g: it's missing the windows key which turns into my tiling controls
[19:32] <rick_h> greg-g: but yea, the is sweet and every so often I try it again. It feels awesome after a bit
[19:33] <greg-g> huh, intersting, didn't realize that
[19:33] <greg-g> (the lack of win/super key)
[19:33] <brousch> oh wow, the new unicomp is coming out in march. it will come in 8 colors, can be converted between split and classic, and will only cost $49!
[19:33] <rick_h> the ones now have it
[19:33] <rick_h> greg-g: I'm always tempted to try to get a new/newer one
[19:33] <rick_h> I think if I had that I'd be set and would make the switch
[19:33] <tjagoda> when you start buying keyboard covers, you know you're in a dark place http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ProtectiveCovers
[19:34] <rick_h> greg-g: mine is just an old ebay auction because I can't stomach full price for those even now
[19:36]  * greg-g nods
[19:36] <greg-g> the two friends who have them both have wrist issues
[19:36] <rick_h> yea, I can see how it would help. You reallyonly move your fingers to hit nearly every key
[19:36] <rick_h> it's almost strange feeling
[19:37] <brousch> i move my whole hands to hit every key. never had wrist problems
[19:37] <brousch> hunt-n-peck ftw!
[19:37] <rick_h> right, but if you had wrist problems all that movement would hurt
[19:40] <tjagoda> I think that he's saying is that he has 0 wrist articulation
[19:40] <tjagoda> and that he types with forearm muscles
[19:41] <tjagoda> He has some strange iron crucible which locks his wrists into rigid placement. =P
[19:43] <tjagoda> Man
[19:43] <jrwren> lol
[19:44] <tjagoda> Should've ordered the faster shipping on this keyboard
[19:46] <jrwren> anyone run chromeos on kvm?
[19:46] <brousch> i ran it once on virtualbox about a year ago
[19:47] <brousch> chromebook ftw
[19:53] <tjagoda> One of my dual heads died over the weekend
[19:53] <tjagoda> Feels like I'm computing with only one eyeball
[19:53] <brousch> cross your eyes
[19:54] <brousch> now you have 2 monitors again
[19:54] <rick_h> heh, so helpful that brousch
[19:54] <brousch> you're welcome
[19:55] <tjagoda> Ordered the upclass UltraSharp 24"
[19:56] <brousch> this also works on women. you can have a 3some without marital problems
[19:56] <brousch> you're even more welcome
[19:56] <tjagoda> I imagine she finds your cross-eyes highly attractive
[19:56] <brousch> twins even
[19:57] <snap-l> God, I hate MS Natural keyboards
[19:58] <snap-l> And it's not that I hate MS (they make good hardware) but that whole "typing on a mountain" thing drives me insane
[19:58] <rick_h> if they only had decent switches I'd still be living on those
[19:58] <rick_h> they lost their way with that 4000 crappola
[19:59] <tjagoda> Typing on a mountain
[19:59] <tjagoda> lol
[20:00] <snap-l> Computer case shows up tomorrow
[20:18] <snap-l> Hah, JoDee got some Caribou Eclipse coffee for us to try out.
[20:18] <brousch> does it sparkle?
[20:20] <Blazeix> uhoh, just heard the DBAs yell, "WTF, A CARTESIAN JOIN??", as they're investigating a db lock that's preventing us from working.
[20:20] <Blazeix> i suspect i'll soon witness a beheading.
[20:20] <snap-l> That can't be good
[20:25]  * snap-l is listening to Symphony No. 3 in C minor (Saint Saens)
[20:26] <rick_h> Blazeix: lol, don't anger the DBAs
[20:26] <tjagoda> When I hear things like "Cartesian Join," I am reminded how little I know about the inner depths of serious databasery
[20:27]  * jjesse googles cartesian join
[20:28] <ColonelPanic001> I keep meaning to read more on DB stuff
[20:28] <ColonelPanic001> I have this "Database In Depth" book, but I mean more about using dbs than theory
[20:29] <ColonelPanic001> but usually you look up books and they want to assuem you don't know what a select is
[20:29] <Blazeix> here's a decent explanation on why cartesian joins are bad: http://www.rampant-books.com/t_hpsdba_77_cartesian_join_operations.htm
[20:29] <Blazeix> basically when doing a cartesian join on two tables, with row counts N and M, you get N*M results.
[20:29] <Blazeix> which is almost never what you want
[20:30] <snap-l> That's best-case cartesian join
[20:30] <ColonelPanic001> processors are too fast anyway
[20:30] <Blazeix> but seriously, this db lock sucks. I can't work.
[20:31] <snap-l> usually what happens is every single table in the join gets pulled several times over, and then your database goes "poof"
[20:31] <snap-l> Blazeix: Oracle, or MS-SQL?
[20:31] <Blazeix> ms-sql
[20:31] <tjagoda> And then your DBA screams "WTF, A CARTESIAN JOIN?!"
[20:32] <snap-l> Blazeix: I don't envy you right now
[20:32] <Blazeix> it's actually pretty cool
[20:32] <Blazeix> not t-sql in particular, but what the project is doing with it
[20:32] <rick_h> oh come on, what could possibly go wrong with a little SELECT * FROM a FULL OUTER JOIN b FULL OUTER JOIN c WHERE 1?
[20:32] <snap-l> Blazeix: It seemed to me like Sybase with all of the fixes
[20:33] <snap-l> and a company that could actually make a go of it
[20:33] <Blazeix> i'm not deep enough in DBs yet to have an opinion. my queries work and return data :)
[20:33] <Blazeix> and there's a sweet enterprisey MERGE statement which is great for what I'm doing
[20:34]  * snap-l wonders if the sweet, enterprisey MERGE statement will get Blazeix's head lopped off. ;)
[20:34] <Blazeix> hah, no, i'm safe. it locked some time while I was at lunch
[20:35] <Blazeix> so unless MERGE spins up a thread in the background and executes later; i should be fine
[20:35] <tjagoda> "I know you said MERGE, but what I assume you said is DROP ALL TABLES in six hours."
[20:35] <rick_h> Blazeix: is hat insert or replace type stuff?
[20:36] <rick_h>  /hat/that
[20:37] <Blazeix> yeah, so you specify two tables, a src and a target, and the columns that you want to join on, then outline scenarios for when to insert/update/delete from the target
[20:37] <Blazeix> http://charliedigital.com/2009/06/05/t-sql-merge-my-new-friend/
[20:38] <rick_h> lol "Awesome! Admittedly, I'm still trying to come up with some legitimate uses for this in my day-to-day application programming "
[20:39] <Blazeix> heh, datamarts are the picture-perfect use case
[20:43] <snap-l> Blazeix: You said Join, correct?
[20:44] <snap-l> as in join two tables...
[20:44] <snap-l> ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I believe we have our smoking gun. ;)
[20:45] <tjagoda> Wonder if anybody has ever mass joined tables in a database as part of a ragequit or something
[20:45] <snap-l> "If the DB's blown to bits, you shall not acquit"
[20:45] <rick_h> Blazeix: ok, so you're generating more specific R/O type tables?
[20:45] <rick_h> and using merge to provide the right set of data then?
[20:46]  * rick_h hasn't heard datamart before and he's read a couple of db books
[20:46] <Blazeix> part of ETL
[20:46] <rick_h> heh, I can't help but think of datamart as the sql equiv of map/reduce
[20:46] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, gotcha
[20:47] <Blazeix> basically datawarehousing
[20:47] <rick_h> yea, http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/data-mart isn't bad
[20:47] <snap-l> Best little Data Whorehouse in Texas
[20:47] <Blazeix> we use the terms interchangeably here, but according to wikipedia there's a difference
[20:47] <rick_h> ok, so I can see how the merge thing is cool there
[20:48] <rick_h> woot! reid created tag v3.5.0pr2 at yui/yui3
[20:51] <Blazeix> awesome!
[20:51]  * rick_h dances around waiting for the blog post summary of changes 
[20:51] <Blazeix> hopefully there's a date input widget :P
[20:54]  * tjagoda has no clue what you're speaking of
[20:55] <rick_h> Blazeix: :P
[20:55] <rick_h> Blazeix: there is date
[20:55] <rick_h> but not time
[20:55] <rick_h> wasn't that what you wanted?
[20:55] <rick_h> YUI has class extensions, just add time support :)
[20:56] <Blazeix> no, date input is what I wanted
[20:56] <Blazeix> time input is tricky
[20:56] <rick_h> the calendar widget didn't work for you?
[20:56] <Blazeix> i'll just go with two input boxes for time...
[20:56] <rick_h> or it was beta
[20:56] <Blazeix> the calendar widget is just for displaying a calendar inline, right?
[20:57] <Blazeix> no good way to attach it to an input box's icon?
[20:57] <brousch> i have not seen a time input widget that was better than a text box
[20:57] <rick_h>  The calendar is currently not enabled with popup functionality: it will be released as a calendar plugin in 3.5
[20:57] <rick_h> to quote the docs
[20:57] <rick_h> http://stage.yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/calendar/
[20:58] <Blazeix> right, which is why I asked if it was in 3.5pr2 :)
[20:58] <rick_h> Blazeix: basically all you'd do though is create the object on page load, call obj.render() on click, and on close obj.get('value')
[20:59] <Blazeix> brousch: yeah, there are all sorts of clever time input widgets, and they all kind of weird
[20:59] <brousch> they are all annoying, clumsy, and slower than typing in a time
[20:59] <Blazeix> rick_h: right, I could create my own widget based off of that, just like i could pretty easily create a numeric spinner widget
[21:00] <Blazeix> but you shouldn't have to for a js library that's on version 3.5
[21:00] <Blazeix> or 3.4
[21:00] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, it looks like it'll be final in 3.5
[21:01] <rick_h> but there's event for catching click, selectionChange, widget:render and there are show/hide methods. So as long as it looks pretty and such it's 6 lines of glue code to hook into an input/input icon
[21:02] <Blazeix> we'll see. there's a bunch of minor papercuts on the UI side of YUI. there are enough little things like that to scare me away for now
[21:02] <rick_h> gotcha
[21:02] <Blazeix> i love their combo loader
[21:02] <Blazeix> and there overall infrastructure / mvc stuff looks promising
[21:03] <Blazeix> but i'm not going to buy into a prebuilt solution if i have to compromise on things that users will judge my apps on.
[21:10] <PainBank1> how do you like YUI?
[21:11] <Blazeix> rick_h can give you a good summary of it :)
[21:11] <snap-l> PainBank1: Let's just say rick_h and YUI are registered at Bed Bath and Beyond, and it'll be a civil ceremony.
[21:11] <PainBank1> awwwww
[21:12] <snap-l> Anyone else think the drop box icon in Ubuntu Unity doesn't look like an open box?
[21:51] <snap-l> Is there a preferred way to keep a module-level "global varaible" in Python?
[21:54] <brousch> store it in __init__.py?
[21:55] <brousch> well, declare it there
[21:56] <snap-l> Yeah, but I have a boat-load of them that get used in another function
[21:56] <snap-l> And I have a lot of "global foo \n global bar \n ..."
[21:56] <brousch> put them in a dict in __init__.py
[21:57] <snap-l> Hmm..
[21:57] <snap-l> Not sure that's an improvement
[21:57] <brousch> fewer imports
[22:02] <Blazeix> what are all these global variables for? app configuration?
[22:03] <snap-l> Yeah, it's an automated process
[22:03] <snap-l> first half sets up the environment, second half runs it
[22:04] <snap-l> before I did Sphinx docs for it, it didn't have an explicit main()
[22:04] <snap-l> now that I have Sphinx docs, it has an explicit main, and the global variables fall apart
[22:06] <Blazeix> i'd just make some config object/dict and dump the properties in there
[22:06] <Blazeix> not sure if there's a better way.
[22:07] <snap-l> Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of
[22:07] <snap-l> hmm
[22:07] <Blazeix> fwiw, python's configparser returns a dict of strings
[22:07] <Blazeix> basically
[22:47] <greg-g> btw everyone, this is the most amazing thing I have in digital form: http://grossmeier.net/files/rowan/911-audio/
[23:24] <brousch> what'd i miss on the globals discussion?
[23:38] <greg-g> brousch: you missed something even more important: the most amazing thing I have in digital form: http://grossmeier.net/files/rowan/911-audio/
[23:42] <brousch> d00d
[23:44] <brousch> you did it all at home?
[23:44] <greg-g> well, Carrie did most of it
[23:44] <greg-g> but yeah :)
[23:44] <greg-g> unplanned homebirth
[23:45] <brousch> ucrazy!
[23:45] <brousch> i'm gonna wait until after dinner to listen though ;)
[23:45] <greg-g> yes, yes we are/were
[23:45] <greg-g> :)
[23:45] <greg-g> nothing bad
[23:46] <greg-g> you hear a baby crying in the background
[23:46] <greg-g> luckily, you don't hear me crying in the background
[23:48] <brousch> did you deliver?
[23:48] <brousch> catch?
[23:51] <greg-g> I caught him, yeah
[23:52] <greg-g> and cut the umbilical cord with a scalple (the EMTs didn't have scissors)
[23:52] <brousch> nice
[23:54] <greg-g> 'twas crazy
[23:55] <brousch> i can't imagine. it was crazy enough for us at the hospital